Not another Derren Brown Query!!

[unrepentant_jim]

I just seen Derren's hand stuck to desk routine. I then got my hands on the script and explaination (i hope thats spelt correctly). it seems a very simple effect to pull off, if i confidently read out the script as it is explained would i have the same results, i'd just like to here from anyone who has had success with it or effects like it.

Also he makes the girl forget her name afterwards, does this mean that when they have been taken to the point that think their hand is actually stuck to the desk, they are very suggestable and you could suggest anything to them. ie sleep, forget how to tie their shoelaces etc.

For all the forum hardcore, be gently with me.


Slán go fóill

Jimmy

[HypnoLurker]

Derren Brown is an interesting chap. Now of course a professional magician who was for a short time a stage hypnotist, he certainly blends in hypnotic techniques into his act.

The short answer to your question is it all depends on the person you try it on and your demeanour. Any stage hypnoist will tell you that some people are more suggestible than others, so you need to find those that are most likely to be so (experience will let you learn how). Plus you need to 'act the part' convincingly, since the person whose hand you are trying to stick to the table or make forget their own name must be focussing on your suggestions believing that they are possible.

[skip]

Gently asking; for what purpose do you wish to stick someones hand to a table or to cause someone to forget their name?

skip

[HypnoLurker]

I don't do this! But I believe the answer from those that do would be "entertainment".

[skip]

Dear hypnolurker, are you sure?

With respect, now I know why you might want to do it, but I still dont know why the origional questioner wants to do it.

AND since I am sure you are aware that entertainment isnt the only possibility, do you not think that assuming would be a mistake on our part?

skip

[Unregistered]

Dear hypnolurker, are you sure?

With respect, now I know why you might want to do it, but I still dont know why the origional questioner wants to do it.

AND since I am sure you are aware that entertainment isnt the only possibility, do you not think that assuming would be a mistake on our part?

skip

Of course assuming anything always has the potential for embarrasment. The context of the original poster seems to suggest that he wants to emulate Derren Brown's effects, which are (presumably) done for entertainment purposes. There are obviously other possibilities for use/misuse. Just to clarify - I DON'T do these things myself!

[unrepentant_jim]

I'm going to get a bad name for myself in this place. I'll clarify my intention, I intende to manipulate as many people as I cant, get them to do some crazy but really well planned crimes, there will obviously be a few murders, at least one large drug deal, I'll enjoy the company of a lot of beautiful woman and make loads of doe. This is going to be big, headline news. Then I'll write a movie about and its off to hollywood I go for more money and woman, less murder but more drug deals. It a perfect plan, and i'll remember anyone who can be of assistant. So what do you think??

On a serious note, the reason I ask these questions is that I am fascinated by all this, I read books on the subject of the mind, nlp, hypnosis, creative visualisation, the lot constantly. I'm not in the financial position at present to take any courses on any of the subjects. And any courses I do take I'll be looking into and find out as much as I can about those running so that I get the best for my money.

Yes, it would be great if I had a few friends round and some night and I performed it, it'd be good for me cos i was able to do it, but it would be far better for those watching. But there are countless fake hypno-tricks that are just as impressive to the people watching.

I've taken a huge interest in this area mainly because of benefits and success that can be achieved through it, physically and mentally. There were no underhand motives to my question it was nothing but curiosity. As the title says, I'm not a bad spud.

Slán go fóill

Jimmy

[skip]

Jimmy,

"Entertainment" can have more than one 'ultimate' purpose. Who is the entertainment for, and at whose expense?

So you can forget your indignation, that I might suspect your motives, and you can forget to mistakenly try and shame me, by pretending I am over the top with paranoia, and you can forget about the skills part until you remember to have your attitude set, in such a way, that your perspective participants will feel comfortable in agreeing with you both consciously and unconsciously.

If your purpose is to promote pure entertainment and make sure 'everyone' has a good and "safe" time, this will come across, and your suggestions will likely be better recieved.

If however your purpose is percieved to be self aggrandizement, at the expense of others, you will be met with failure more often than not.

Your skills notwithstanding.

You would have done better to simply answer my question, rather than to misconstru my intent.

skip

[Don]

Why do you assume any of his work has anything at all to do with NLP? He is a magician. Instead of wearing a tux and top hat as a costume he wears NLP as a costume. A tux and top hat do not make a person a gentleman, and the guise of NLP does not make a person a Master Prac.

FYI, I have in my possession instructions for a magic trick that is at least 150 years old. The effect of the trick is that a person sitting in a chair cannot rise from it. The costume in this case is the guise of instant hypnosis. The reality is a simple gimmick and understanding human physiology and kinesics.

Do you really think the magician produces a dove out of thin air? He pretends to do so. So why should you think Brown uses NLP just because he pretends to do so?

[welshguymikey]

I'm going to get a bad name for myself in this place. I'll clarify my intention, I intende to manipulate as many people as I cant, get them to do some crazy but really well planned crimes, there will obviously be a few murders, at least one large drug deal, I'll enjoy the company of a lot of beautiful woman and make loads of doe. This is going to be big, headline news. Then I'll write a movie about and its off to hollywood I go for more money and woman, less murder but more drug deals. It a perfect plan, and i'll remember anyone who can be of assistant. So what do you think??

On a serious note, the reason I ask these questions is that I am fascinated by all this, I read books on the subject of the mind, nlp, hypnosis, creative visualisation, the lot constantly. I'm not in the financial position at present to take any courses on any of the subjects. And any courses I do take I'll be looking into and find out as much as I can about those running so that I get the best for my money.

Yes, it would be great if I had a few friends round and some night and I performed it, it'd be good for me cos i was able to do it, but it would be far better for those watching. But there are countless fake hypno-tricks that are just as impressive to the people watching.

I've taken a huge interest in this area mainly because of benefits and success that can be achieved through it, physically and mentally. There were no underhand motives to my question it was nothing but curiosity. As the title says, I'm not a bad spud.

Slán go fóill

Jimmy
i have this script too, i really am not a player but id like to use it oneday if i see a hot girl in a pub:p because i can never find a reason to appraoch any one, and a simple trick like that would be cool to do and then you could get to know them a bit before you decide if you like them or not becasue naturally they will ask how you did it and you can just go into conversation with them. however i probably never will try it as im too dam shy and too nervous to try it incase it dosent work.

[unrepentant_jim]

Skip my friend relax, i can see your having a little trouble with the irish humour. I was only messing about with the first paragraph, no offence intended.

You seem quite worried that i may upset my friends through these techniques, thats not going to happen. I've a friend with big ears, he hates them, do you know what we call him....luggsey. I've another friend his eyes stick out and point in different directions, his name...........google eye. I never personally give the name but that how they've been know for years and that how they introduce themselves to people. If you were ever in our presence half the time you'd think we hated each other but thing is there's not much we take seriously. This side of the water were all thick skinned.

I asked a question because i think this stuff is amazing, i was sitting earlier on today reading an article on hypnoticadvancements.com when all of a sudden i scratched my nose, as i did this i noticed the words SCRATCH NOSE HANDY UPLIFTING within the paragraph in a different colour. You ought to have seen the smile on my face, unbelievable!

The reason i asked my original question was not that i'm going to mess with peoples heads but just to enquire as to whether if i done exactly what is said in the script and explaination would i have the same results or would it take years of training.
Now we know i'm good at heart, can someone answer my question, at that point when you have them there with their hand stuck could you suggest that there fear of something will dissappear when you say something, or could you suggest that they will recover from an illness quickly etc.

Skip, lets not fall out this early in our relationship, we could have something beautiful.

[skip]

Whose talking about falling out, and how specifically, does that serve you?

The bottom line of your question is, "What would happen?", as if we could answer it, given all the variables.

I gave you a major clue, for those with the wit to attend. And of course we all know you are good at heart, and wouldnt harm a fly, or take advantage ...

Now all we lack, is your report, on the results you had, by actually doing the damn thing, isnt it? :)

skip

[unrepentant_jim]

You made a fair point, i'll get back to you with the results.

[unrepentant_jim]

I just want say that alot of the old hands in here find it difficult to answer questions straight without delving into are possible motives, variables, what time of day etc. Alot of times it seems they resent people who aren't a knowledgeable as them.

Skip, It would neither serve me nor hinder me if we feel out, you mentioned paranoia in one of your posts. I think you should get that checked out.

I'm a straight talker and I do not hide behind words so when I ask a question all I want is a straight answer.

Tiocfáidh ar Lá

Jimmy

[Don]

I just want say that alot of the old hands in here find it difficult to answer questions straight without delving into are possible motives, variables, what time of day etc. Alot of times it seems they resent people who aren't a knowledgeable as them.
Jimmy

Hi, Jimmy.

This is drifting from the topic of this thread, but you bring up a good point I'd like to talk about. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

I realize that when people who have been here for a time ask questions it "seems they resent people who aren't a[s] knowledgeable as them." That's what we call "mind reading"--guessing motivations--and it's something hypnotherapists are taught not to do. In fact, you'll no doubt see several posts about mind reading in the archives.

So why do we ask those questions? It's because most (not all) people base their concepts of hypnosis, NLP, etc. not on knowledge or facts, but on what they've seen in movies or TV. The fact is, much of that information is incomplete--giving a false impression about these subjects--or outright false.

Often, people come here with a self-diagnosis and prescription. Frequently both the diagnosis and prescription are wrong. It would be like someone asking a doctor for a bandage for a sore on the arm. The doctor has two choices, simply give the bandage or examine the arm. It may be that only a bandage is needed. But that sore could also be a melanoma, and by only giving a bandage the doctor could be effectively killing the patient!

So when people come here asking "How do I do this?" it is the prudent and appropriate thing for people who have accurate and more complete knowledge to ask "Why?" Sometimes the people asking the original question get upset just as the person who asks the doctor for a bandage may get upset if the doctor wants to examine the arm first. "Why can't you just answer the question instead of grilling me?" is their feeling. I certainly understand this. When a person has his or her mind made up as to the way things are, any person who questions that is damned. [To bring this back to the original thread, I made clear that Brown--no matter what he has publicly stated or learned--is a magician. He uses the techniques of magicians, not hypnosis or NLP, to make sure that his effects work. In other threads on this subject people either get upset and deny this or simply ignore it. I note that it's been ignored here.]

But contrary to your "mind read" that the people here seem to "resent people who aren't a knowledgeable as them," it is rather that we want to give the best information that will do the best for the questioner. If somebody came to you and decided to build a bridge to cross the street in front of his house and asked for where to buy the lumber, you could save the person lots of money by saying, "Can't you just look both ways before crossing the street?" But if he insists, wouldn't it be wise to ask, "Did an architect design the bridge and did you get construction permits?" Those are prudent questions, and that's all we're asking.

[unrepentant_jim]

Don,

I understand a little more now of how the more senior member think, and it makes sense. I unfortunatley do not have the same way with words as yourself, when I'm trying to explain myself I often come across offensive. You on the otherhand wrote with patience and understanding and I'd like to thank you for that. I'd also like to apoligise to skip if he feels any of my comments were attacks on his person, that was not the intention.

I understand that a whole lot of Derren Browns work is simply magic portrayed as mind reading, he has the luxury of editors and camera positions so we do not see everything that goes on. But the effect where causes people to experience pain in the jaws just by talking and where he helps a man collect winning on losing greyhound tickets, things like this cannot be done using camera angles.
Some nlp or hypnosis must be involved, unless he uses actors, which would be quite risky because if anyone came out he'd lose all credibility.

Slan Abaile

Jimmy

[Don]

No offense, Jimmy, but as a professional magician for over 35 years I love hearing explanations of magic tricks by people who are not magicians or do not specialize in that type of magic.

I've seen descriptions of Houdini being able to disjoint himself so he could get out of traps. I've heard of a mysterious powder that Uri Geller put on spoons that would allow them to bend with no pressure on them. There was even a large book, published some 50 years ago, by a well-known magician, where virtually every trick described used some far-fetched gimmick that could never be done in real life.

Your solution--he uses NLP, hypnosis, or actors--shows that you don't know magic tricks. Personally, I think that's great! The more people who come up with false explanations, the more people will be puzzled over the magic performed by people such as Brown, myself, and others. But merely because you don't know the secret does not mean your solutions are the only ones or the correct one.

About 150 years ago, the French were in a war, and they called on the man who has come to be called the '"father of modern magic," Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin (a young Erich Weiss later modeled his stage name, Houdini, after Houdin). Houdin dazzeled the less-industrialized foes of the French. The high point of the show being a small box which a young girl could lift, but the strongest of the armed enemies couldn't lift. Houdin's magic was that good. The enemies of France were terrified that the French wizard was so much more powerful than their own wizards that they ran from his shows in fear and the war ended. It was a good thing that they didn't know about electromagnetism, no?

They knew exactly how Houdin did it: real magic. That was their only explanation. It was wrong. Is it not possible that you are wrong in your analysis of the only possibilities as to what Brown is doing? Their frame resulted in fear and ending of a war because they didn't understand the truth.

What is your frame doing to you?

[rcs]

I'll have to agree with Jim on his last point.

A therapist myself, it amazes me how a newbie comes along; propose a question, only to be ripped apart by a pack of wolves.



I clearly understand by what Jim means, being thick skinned myself. Whether it be humour or not, surely the simple road to life is the straight road. Propose a question, receive an answer or 'not' as the case may be.



His intentions, from what I gather seem that of true curiosity. May I coin the phrase 'curiosity killed the cat...' and by doing so, if he should find out how to glue someone’s hand to a table (we all have this desire... ), his attempts may be met by failure or ridicule.



I have no intentions of upsetting people on this forum. So please don’t take my post the wrong way. :o

Visiting other forums relating to various topics, this one is of particular interest. But it does amaze me, how the pack every now and again tears apart a posting. I truly admit there are people who deserve it. But save it for the gym boys...or girls, please. :)



Rich

[Terry (existing)]

Jim, talk is cheap, and so is asking questions, but to achieve anything worth achieving requires work and study......Coming to a board such as this, and asking a question that can't be answered with a simple yes or no demands that we do the work of asking questions ourselves to ensure that we first of all understand what it is that the poster requires. It is then highly likely that we will be cautious as to what we say in return, because we don't know you, and frankly have every reason to suspect anyone who wants such information as you ask.....Now personally, I don't much care as to your motives, I would refuse information on the grounds that you haven't earned the right to it. Go take a bloody course and study to be good. Asking questions is not the way to pretend that you are capable of what so many of us paid for in time and money. Your remark about most of us having a hard time answering questions is correct, and based on the fact that so many of the questions seem to come for idiots, and rude ones at that.
Many of my friends here are polite to a fault, but I am not, and that is why I have not bothered to reply before. I find questions about magic on a hypnosis board to be in poor taste, eminating from fools, and boring to me......Nuf said.......

[unrepentant_jim]

Terry, you hardcore attitude to hypnosis amuses me, I am saving up for several courses at present but in the mean time I will continue to ask questions. By the way does anyone know how to make a hanky disappear:D

See Ya

Jimmy

[Don]

Yes.

First get a high-speed electric motor and have it mounted beneath the stage. It's on and off switch is radio controlled.

Obtain a 30' length or rope. Paint it flat black. Make sure that the stage backdrop is also flat black. Attach one end of the rope to the motor and a bulldog clip (painted flat black) to the other end.

Drill a 1" hole above the electric motor. Put the remote control switch for the motor in your pocket. Wire it so that the switch is made remote with two flat plates. The idea is that you must turn on the remote control and then push on the flat plates for the motor to turn on. Run the wires from the pocket, through your pants (or under your skirt), to your shoe, putting the plates in the heal so you can step on them.

Go on stage with the handkerchief in your hand. Stand next to the hole and notice that your shoe is untied. Kneel down and pretend to tie your shoe while actually grabbing the clip attached to the rope. As you stand, pull the rope up with you, hiding it with your body from the audience. Since the rope is black it probably won't be seen, but hide it with your body anyway.

Wave the handkerchief as you subtly attach the bulldog clip to it. Reach into the pocket with the remote control for some "woofle dust," which you pretend to bring out and sprinkle over the hanky. In actuality you turn on the remote control in your pocket. Be sure that you are not pressing on the plates in you shoe at this time.

Tell the audience you'll make the handkerchief vanish at the count of three. Count slowly, and on "three," press on the plates with your heal. The motor winds the rope pulling the handkerchief that's attahed to it through the hole in the floor.

Works every time. Don't reveal the secret!





:)

[Terry (existing)]

I'm a straight talker and I do not hide behind words so when I ask a question all I want is a straight answer.

Tiocfáidh ar Lá

Jimmy[/QUOTE]
Jimmy I believe you, I do indeed, your are so ingenuous that I believe every word you say. You ask a stupid question, because you believe the spiel put out by a conjurer, not by a hypnotist..........However, you were given a straight answer right off the bat, and refused to accept it......At least two of those who man this board are also performers of magic, and know what they are talking about. You of course have no idea either about hypnosis or magic, yet argue with those who reply to you. How stupid is that? Would you challenge your doctor if you were told you had a particullar desease? I know nothing about stage magic, but I do know my hypnosis, and though I can do such as you describe, I also know it can be done by subterfuge, so I have remained out of this discussion until now......If you asked my how to do it via hypnosis, my reply would likely appear rude to you, because I would tell you to take proper training and learn as I did. I resent those who try to make our skills seem simple, since it took years to learn what I now do automatically, yet so many posters expect us to tell them about and train them online for free. It isn't so simple, and if you feel it is, go read the books and learn without us......
There is no such thing as "straight talk" just words put together in such a way as to convey your needs without any doubt. When someone replies to a post, they have read what was written, and if it made sense, the poster got a reply that also made sense.
As for sticking someones hand to a table, if you had to pay out good money to learn this, would you do it?
If you had to pay out, and expend time and effort to learn our art, would you use it in such a stupid fashion? No you wouldn't so stop asking bloody stupid questions and learn how valuable your mind really is when used properly, and directed properly. Then use that wonderful skill you now have, and read and study to learn the proper way...... As far as we know by the way, you are a young girl of thirteen trying to learn something that facinates her, but is beyond her skills...Now convince me in any reasonable way, that you are NOT that thirteen year old female. Bet you can't (EG)

[unrepentant_jim]

Terry,

I do love a heated discussion. You say I ask a stupid question, but I have heard countless men alot wiser than yourself tell me the only stupid question is the question you don't ask. To me it was curiosity I don't really have any intention of sticking peoples hands to desks I just asked that once their hand is stuck does that mean they are in a more suggestible state. Simple. It seems to me that a lot of members of the forum slate Derren, possibly jealousy. I know he is a conjurer, i know a little about his past and i know most mentalism is trickery. To be honest when I first found out how some of his effects were achieved and how simple they were I was a little disappointed. But when I seen the look on people faces when they were performed more than made up for it.

Your right in saying that you cannot achieve anything with effort and study, but I'll repeat myself in saying until I take the proper training I will continue to read as much as I can, and ask stupid questions so that I have as much background knowledge on hypnosis and nlp, hopefully this will help me get the most out of these courses.

I don't intend to become a therapist, i make too much money and get to much satifaction from being a mechanical engineer.

I must say Terry, you remind me of people who I have no respect for. The little man who goes mental when you cut across his lane whilst driving because he has the protective shell of his car, but take them out of the car and they go to bits. Or the guys who are hard when they have ten mates standing behind them (this happened a lot to me growing up as a Catholic in a Loyalist town in N. Ireland) I always found it funny how quickly they lost their hardness when I got them on their own. You have this forum where you vent your anger at people like myself who you are never going to meet, you can say anything you like to me, how stupid, lazy I am or whatever. But I know your type and I find you funny, you entertain me. As far as being a 13 year old girl goes, brilliant! That one has made my christmas. Ever considered stand up comedy, your a natural.

Don, cheers for the trick its perfect, I'm going to get rid of my thumb tip and get working on it, but when I perform I'm going to pretend I used mind control. What do you think?

Anyway, it just after 11am and its christmas eve so I'm of the pub, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

Slán go fóill

Jimmy

[Unregistered]

Oh look you people. The hand stuck trick is just a quick induction like the hand clasp induction but with a hand stuck to a table. In this case, it is more effective by getting the subject to concentrate on the pretext that something else is going to happen. It's becoming a staple of psychological magicians. In the UK there's even a show on freeview channel TFN, in one episode of which one of the gang of street magicians performs the induction on a girl in a pub beer garden using the pretext of a card trick. She thinks her card is about to materialise under her hand. She studiously obeys the magician when he goes form telling her to push down onto the table to subtly suggesting that she cannot remove it. She describes it later as being in a daydream and is such a good subject that the operator needs to bring her out as she doesn't seem able to find her way out of trance again immediately herself. The scripts purveyed for free on this site itself can be modified to accomplish this simple task and infinite variations thereof.

Why must you people always frustrate the search for knowledge? Does it make you feel powerful? I'd hate to see you torment a cat with a laser pen!

Unrepentant_Jim. If these people give you any more trouble just remember, Google is your friend and Amazon and other places stock mountains of comprehensively written books on all aspects of hypnotic phenomena and how to achieve them at surprisingly low prices.

Thank you and have a Merry Christmas if you believe in such things as virgin births. Have a nice holiday otherwise.

[Don]

Oh do get rid of that thumb tip, Jimmy! I still remember buying a trick through the mail when I was about 10. The effect was to pick up a flame in your hand from one candle and visibly carry it to light another candle. I stared dubiously at the gimick and instructions, and tried it with a mannequin's hand. I watched in horror as the hand, and gimmick, exploded into flames! Glad I didn't use it myself.

Unregistered guest, the problem with your description of the trick using suggestibility is that it doesn't work every time. A magician needs the effect to always work. Would you use a cash register that didn't always total sums correctly? Then why use a trick that doesn't always work.

On the other hand, get someone who is a little juiced and perhaps a bit randi in a pub, and he or she will do just about anything for someone he or she is attracted to.

[Frog420]

don you said 'the problem with your description of the trick using suggestibility is that it doesn't work every time. A magician needs the effect to always work.'

not on tv he doesn't, so he could get away with using the nlp method

i like magic as well, not hugely, but i try to keep upto date with how tricks work, see i need explanations on everything that seems impossible

Jim the hand to desk routine is a standard stage hypnotists way of finding out how sugestable someone is... try it, don't be embarassed if it doesn't work, after all it'll probably only work on 1 in 10 people, learn more about nlp get rapport, notice what their predominant sense is (rapport building again) the whole eye cue thing i understand but i could never use in a real life situation, but if you could master that it would help hugely in finding if someone is sugestable (i aint that good, and need training) if you get that good it should be easy (and with experience you could probably get the success rate from 1 in 10 to 1 in 1...) the experts have been doing it for years.. and they'll say not to go out and just try it, they'll no doubt say get training... their probably right but good ol hands on experience and learning from your mistakes is a good second option

good luck

[BarBrian]

Interesting thread. Speaking as a forum Newbie, I don't think anybody was tearing anybody else apart. Jimmy, you seem to be approaching Master Carpenters looking for Flat-Pack furniture. What they offer you is something that is far more interesting and beneficial, but you are not accepting it with an open mind. You had the ideal answer in your mind but it didn't match up to what you were given by the "Old Hands" here on the board. Accept it and try grow from it.

Nil aon intinn mar d'intinn féin, Jimmy. Éirí le críonnacht. ;)

All the best,
Brian.

(There is no mind like your own mind. Grow with wisdom ..... in case anybody gets paranoid !)

[HypnoBear]

don you said 'the problem with your description of the trick using suggestibility is that it doesn't work every time. A magician needs the effect to always work.'

not on tv he doesn't, so he could get away with using the nlp method
Dead right here. In mentalism (mental magic) there's the "too perfect" principal in which the performer either deliberately makes a small mistake or doesn't mind a small mistake happening. This actually *increases* the audience's opinion of the performer as it makes it seem more believable.
Derren often does this.

[Frog420]

Have just finished watching the show, hope you all saw it, superb, sure he relied a lot on cold reading but you could still see a lot of nlp skills being used

the show fell right into a lot of what we have been discussing about beliefs

an open mind is a good thing? not always as he demonstrated, an open mind can be a very gullible one as well

i lol at his dream catcher, that was him just guiding her thoughts, superb use of nlp

i hoe a lot of people will take a step back and question their beliefs now, i think he may have done the nation a favour

[Don]

Originally Posted by Frog420

don you said 'the problem with your description of the trick using suggestibility is that it doesn't work every time. A magician needs the effect to always work.'

not on tv he doesn't, so he could get away with using the nlp method


HypnoBear:
Dead right here. In mentalism (mental magic) there's the "too perfect" principal in which the performer either deliberately makes a small mistake or doesn't mind a small mistake happening. This actually *increases* the audience's opinion of the performer as it makes it seem more believable.
Derren often does this.


HB, you are correct concerning the "too perfect" principle. However, when a mentalist gets a small error, her or she does that completely under control and as part of a plan. With NLP you wouldn't know when you would be successful.

Making an error can also be an "out," but too many of them cause the performance to be poor.

[HypnoBear]

HB, you are correct concerning the "too perfect" principle. However, when a mentalist gets a small error, her or she does that completely under control and as part of a plan. With NLP you wouldn't know when you would be successful.

Making an error can also be an "out," but too many of them cause the performance to be poor. Agreed. It would be risky for a performer to *rely* on NLP, and I realise that just because DB hints that that's what he's sometimes doing it doesn't mean he is!

[Sponge]

Could you please give a link for the Hand on desk script? I think ive seen(heard actually) it being performed.

[norticat]

I have just finished reading through this thread and maybe its time to let it rest but hell i love the scuffle and want to get my two cents worth in before the dust settles.

what started out as a simple question about whether someone in the lucid state of having their hand stuck to a table is more receptive to other things and the amusing fire bomb that followed has shown one thing. Magicians, hypnotists, mentalists and derren browns all keep their secrets to themselves. Understandable when you would pay a princley sum to learn your craft and I am still getting grief from the missus for the amount I spend. But jim is curious as to whether he wants to go this path. I am the same, I wish to explore this patha little more. I am a magician and want to produce something magical. This came to me one day when I asked if a friend wanted to see a magic/card trick and his reply was...."thats what it is isnt it? a trick!" so from that day I called myself a trickster. now watching the man WE cannot mention, I was inspired to search again for that magic touch and I can say that NLP is not the express and only method that DB uses. In fact he suggests it but it is only a way to get rapport with people. I have been reading and spending copiuos amounts of money on the research and have found out that my money could have been better spent. JIM wishes to know what is the best value for his money. WE are not all rich and have friends that we have made over 30 years of being in the game. I have three friends in magic now and we all do different things ( three people from different countries.) I even learnt one thing from one and another thing from the other and put my own influence on it and blew both out of the water with an effect. Basing the effect and presentation with DB's Absolute magic in mind I did MAGIC for the first time! The NLP books never helped me! but if I was to use it in a new group I may need to rely on the techniques to win rapport with the group. My spin on NLP.
DB uses something else and I believe he is able to bring about a lucid state by a mild form of hypnotisim. I have done a couple of the effects from metamind.org and was knocked for six myself about the effectivness of it. I am still looking for the suggestive words that I can use.
Jim I know in my own experience that if the person you are talking to BELIEVES you can do, what you say you can, you could theoreticaly cure their problems. Even then researchg still does show that the healing power of the mind alone does not cure everything. Medicine is still needed but the cases of patients that have belief in the healing of a non-medical practitioner is higher than those that relied on medicine only. Hypnotists can induce similar things. It all has to do with lucid states. Edgar cayce was an expert on lucid states but he wasnt a magician. it is something very much explored in the paranormal world. it is the state you are in just before sleep and just before awake. You are more supceptable to suggestions at this time. Norticat@hotmail.com if you want to discuss more. I will happily impart all knowledge I have.
Your own use of the powers you learn or gain is up to your self to govern. No-one can stop you learning. That said Skip was right to ask why. I would not feel comfortable imparting knowledge to someone that may not have the best intentions. from what I read you didnt jim but Sjkip probably has this on a daily basis.
This is another stop in my quest for knowledge,. not the start, research more on the subjects that DB touches on and see where it leads you. maybe all that is a little off topic but sometimes the words come quick and fast and its hard to keep up . we use 10 % of our brain....whats the other 90% doing?would have been to skips why....."because if you can stick someones hand to the table, what else is suggestable and does this scare him?
anyway ill don the asbestos suit and sit in a pan of cold water
Norticat

[First Time Caller]

we use 10 % of our brain....
This is an urban myth.

[skip]

Norticat,

I use all my brain, all the time, and wouldnt mind some extra, so give me the 90% of your brain that you arent using, and Ill use it.


skip

[norticat]

its an urban myth? why does many books on hypnosis claim it and even science say it occasionaly. is this the biggest myth, like the comfort of the qwerty keyboard?

Skip Im afraid I cant let you use the other 90 % of my brain.....i have some things that ive remembered but they are are now so far back that I cant reach....but I may need em one day so im not doing the spring clean....sorry

[First Time Caller]

its an urban myth? why does many books on hypnosis claim it and even science say it occasionaly. is this the biggest myth, like the comfort of the qwerty keyboard?
It is untrue, both actually and philosophically. http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm. Some (possibly fraudulent) self improvements claim to increase this mythical ten percent. I'm going to explain how this is impossible and why you might even distrust anyone making claims of that nature, if that's not too controversial? I think it will be interesting and might just provide food for thought that's a little different to the style of discussions that have been taking place recently.

With little or no knowledge of their neurophysiology, many people make intersting claims as to the functioning and abilities of their own brains. I think we can't help it, and I'm going to show you how.

While seeming to be a good deal more mundain, the truth is no less magical and real, as imagery-based therapies clearly and dramatically demonstrate.

Every neuron between your ears costs a small amount of energy and nutrients to maintain, so it's there because there's an evolutionary advantage to those resources being used putting it there and not making, say, bigger muscles or sharper night vision or smell.

Repeatedly solving problems increases the overall efficiency of existing neurons with frequently impressive and long lasting results. It also makes people happier and more in control. The brain, we know, does this by creating and strengthening connections between its cells so that it can store more and more detail and access and use it faster and faster. Chess is a classic example of something that has this effect on you, of course, but anything where you concentrate and think just slightly harder than normal is going to improve your reasoning capacity.

The brain is a machine that builds and improves upon itself as it needs to. It takes in nothing more than 400-500 kcalories of energy a day to fuel the processing of roughly 2 million sensory data per second. Its major products are intricate and rapidly changing patterns of electrical signals and something produced by no other machine: beliefs.

But perhaps the most extraordinary aspect of these miraculous biological machines is that you can create one accidentally using minimal time and effort, and with completely unskilled or even malicious labor.

The design of the machine so complex that it produces not only belief but the specific belief that its existance is important relative to the rest of the universe is in fact the product of a completely random process.

So, when someone says you use just 10% of the most wonderful gift that strangers can bestow by mistake while drunk at a party, you'll know better.

Welcome to your subconscious mind. Please drive carefully.

[norticat]

well its lucky then....I tried to sell my other 90% on ebay but no-one wanted it.
That is utterly facinating. As I read it I am to assume that the more I use my brain the better it gets? or does it matter the USE of it. does thinking, or using memory to be exact, alone increase or do we need to consume the nutrients to support the growth? What if we dont eat does our brains die?
These are now serious questions for me. hell ive been under the belief that I had 90% more brain to play with....better start eating the greens!

[skip]

I dont know of many people who say it, especially hypnotists who have some bit of insight into the processes that are going on behind the curtain, so to speak.

Just consider, that each and every person you see in the mall is checked against each and every person in your memory, to see if you know them or not. Now you dont notice it consciously, but just think of the activity, for this process alone at rush hour!

Sometimes, I think it is only the people who say we just use ten percent, that are actually using only ten percent.

skip

ps What a nice SOM, I love the way my brain works!

[norticat]

I kinda get what you mean. You can go through life not seeing a franchise business and the moment you are introduced to it you begin to see them everywhere. Now i am getting the whole marketing for my company....I learn new things everyday. Skip if I may ask you questions. now as for hypnosis I have read that the people you hypnotise do the things you ask them because they want to do them. you cant actually make soemone experience something they would feel very uncomfortable with, IE: eating something they extremly dislike. do things that would shame or embaress them. With this in mind does hypnotism take on a more uncontrollable aspect or does it then help with your selections? Can I make some one not afraid of spiders, who is deathly afraid of spiders( she runs from the room or cant watch them on telly) , not afraid of them. could I get them to a stage that allows them to touch or hold one? I am looking into the NLP and Hypnosis phenomina and came across penn and tellers bulls£$t peice on hypnotism. it started to make me worry if that is how people view hynotists as a whole? if it is Im not buying anymore books , DVD's or online lecture notes. also the show confused me as teller is a good friend of derren browns. anyway enough blabbing

[skip]

norticat,

Ill try and answer your questions.

"now as for hypnosis I have read that the people you hypnotise do the things you ask them because they want to do them."

Why would they not do something they wanted to do?

"you cant actually make soemone experience something they would feel very uncomfortable with, IE: eating something they extremly dislike or do things that would shame or embaress them."

Thats an interesting turn of phrase, "You cant make someone experience ..." Ill bet can make poeople experience a lot of things they dont want to. Ill bet I could make you angry, even if you just wanted to have a noce peaceful evening. But that doesnt require hypnosis, does it?

If I understand the gist of your question ... If you despise oysters, I could persuade you to eat them, by convincing you they are something else. Or conversely if you like hot dogs, I could persuade you to refuse them by convincing you they were oysters. Or I could help you change your beliefs about oysters, and then you would eat them. Or I could help you create the situation that you are starving, and oysters are the only thing to eat, and even though you dont like them, you need them to survive. Or I could possibly age regress you to the point before you knew you didnt like oysters, and persuade you to give one a try. I could go on and on ...

Some people are of the belief that you cannot be persuaded to do something you dont want to, or is against some intrinsic ethical limitation. And that is correct if you are attempting direct suggestion. There are however many other types of ways to gain cooperation. And my experience is that there dont seem to be any intrinsic ethical limitations.

"With this in mind does hypnotism take on a more uncontrollable aspect or does it then help with your selections?"

I dont understand this question.

"Can I make some one not afraid of spiders, who is deathly afraid of spiders( she runs from the room or cant watch them on telly) , not afraid of them."

Yes.

"Could I get them to a stage that allows them to touch or hold one?"

Yes. In one of my simiinars, I had a lady who was deathly afraid of cats. She lived in an apartment building, and couldnt bring herself to even get out of the car, to go to her apt, if she saw a cat. This occurred frequently enough that it was a burden. One of her outcomes for comming to the workshop was to lose this paralysing fear of cats. I covertly, during the course of the first day, used a combination of NLP and hypnosis, to help her learn a new behavior in relation to cats. At the end of the day, I told her the "cat business" was taken care of.

She did not believe me.

The next day, she returned to the siminar, still believing that the fear of cats was undiminished. She related the following incident. She went home, intending to test my work. She couldnt see any cats from her car, so she got out, and went to the dumpsters, where she normally saw them. She still didnt see any. She searched around, but it was dark, and she couldnt find any cats. So she went to her apartment, got a flashlight, and spent two hours looking for stray cats. She didnt find any at all.

This lady was bewildered that the rest of the class, was finding her belief, that she was still afraid of cats amusing. She couldnt percieve that actively looking for cats, hoping, wanting to see one, was exactly the opposite of her behavior the day before. The incongruence of her behavior; alone, looking for cats, in the dark, while insisting that she was still afraid of them, was what everyone found so amusing.

Now to me, that is elegant behavioral change, in that the new behavior is so smoothly integrated, that it is unnoticed consciously. I have no comment on whether it is ecological to go looking for stray cats at night. :)

"I am looking into the NLP and Hypnosis phenomina and came across penn and tellers bulls£$t peice on hypnotism."it started to make me worry if that is how people view hynotists as a whole?"

I hear Penn and Teller did a hatchet job on hypnosis. Too bad, I like them as magicians. I wouldnt presume to tell them their business, as they are far superior magicians than I. It seems odd to me that they would want to step outside of their field, and discredit themselves, by rendering opinions about something they know little or nothing about.

"if it is Im not buying anymore books , DVD's or online lecture notes."

Now that's curious. Im not sure how Penn and Teller's show would influence me to stop pursuing learning about something I was interested in. But to each his own. I used to be unduly influenced by my friends, but thay have now convinced me not to be that way anymore.

cheers,

skip

[norticat]

well thanks skip you answered many of the questions I had.
to answer a few of your quote queries.

"With this in mind does hypnotism take on a more uncontrollable aspect or does it then help with your selections?"

I dont understand this question.

this meant to be read outside the single sentence you pointed out. im gathering you a a hypnotic therapist? am i correct in making that assumption?
it was more directed to a stage performance and the uncontrollabe nature of people. and with that in mind does it all matter on your own selections.

Its easy to pick holes in someone elses convictions on certain things. you I believe, if I read it correctly, have been in this business for quite some time. You have the experience and confidence that comes from many succsesful reactions. I on the other hand have never hypnotised anyone, I think its an avenue I wish to explore. I hate to say it but reading Derrens work and seeing his show made me look at a new direction for my magic. I started making A hanky disappear and as time has got on, I now am looking for another step in magic. I know that Derren doesnt use hypnosis 100% of the time. I dont think he does it 10% of the time. he uses something similar that looks like it but isnt. I with no experience have used some of his moves and done wonderful things with people. no hypnosis was involved. But I still bought half the shops books on hypnosis. To see two magicians that I respect say that what Im trying to achieve is bullsh%^t, kinda makes it dis heartening. Its easier to say a harsh word than a kind one and all I ask is if I am here respecting you then please do the same for me. Im new, and the reason im here is to ask questions of those wiser than me. thank you for ypur time and patience.

on the quote question. I have asked my girlfriend about her experience with being hypnotised and she says says that she felt she didnt have control even though she knew she was riding a chair. she was in a horse race and just had to win.

If you plant a post hynotic suggestion so the next time they see you, they go under easier. how long does that last for? could you effectivly use it whenever?

[skip]

Norticat,

"this meant to be read outside the single sentence you pointed out. im gathering you a a hypnotic therapist? am i correct in making that assumption?"

Yes.

"it was more directed to a stage performance and the uncontrollabe nature of people. and with that in mind does it all matter on your own selections."

It still doesnt make sense enough for me to attempt an answer. If you will rephrase, Ill try and respond intelligently. In the mean time, Ormand McGills "Encylopedia of Stage Hypnosis" is the bible for people who wish to use hypnosis for public entertainment. There are people in this group who are very accomplished magicians, and who could offer you better advice than I in this context.

"Its easy to pick holes in someone elses convictions on certain things. you I believe, if I read it correctly, have been in this business for quite some time. You have the experience and confidence that comes from many succsesful reactions. I on the other hand have never hypnotised anyone, I think its an avenue I wish to explore."

By all means do so. However if you wish to incorporate it into a stage show, then look more to what you can do as entertainment value with the veneer of hypnosis and or mentalism, and not try and focus on really putting people into trance. If I were going to do stage hypnosis, my emphasis would be on selecting those people who I felt would just go along, and have a good time, and who really cares if they are actually hypnotized? You speak of Derren Brown, what do you think is the most important thing in his mind, that the effect works as designed, or that someone was actually hypnotized?

If you want to use hypnosis to help people transform their lives, then different values come into play. Not better values, or lesser, just different.

"I hate to say it but reading Derrens work and seeing his show made me look at a new direction for my magic."

Why do you hate to say it?

"I know that Derren doesnt use hypnosis 100% of the time. I dont think he does it 10% of the time. he uses something similar that looks like it but isnt. I with no experience have used some of his moves and done wonderful things with people. no hypnosis was involved."

What does it matter if no hypnosis is used? Derrens purpose is entertainment. When you do a magic show, are you using real magic, or is the real magic in creating the illusion of real magic? Yet, when asked you say it is magic rather than explain your secrets, dont you? Thats no harm, no foul, but it isnt 'real' magic. Derren (I suspect) isnt using real hypnosis anymore than a mentalist really reads minds. He uses some bomb proof techniques that can be made to appear as hypnosis. That too is no harm no foul, unless you are a purist. BUT it could cause someone like you to spend a lot of time and money barking up the wrong tree. If you want hypnosis for stage presentations, look for advice from Don, who has appeared at the Magic Castle, and/or someone like Kenton Kneppler (use google), or cruise the magic groups, because that is where you will learn the techniques you really want.

"But I still bought half the shops books on hypnosis."

I think you are barking up the wrong tree, if all you want is stage hypnosis. "Real" hypnosis is as different from stage hypnosis as "real" magic is from illusion.

"To see two magicians that I respect say that what Im trying to achieve is bullsh%^t, kinda makes it dis heartening. Its easier to say a harsh word than a kind one and all I ask is if I am here respecting you then please do the same for me. Im new, and the reason im here is to ask questions of those wiser than me. thank you for ypur time and patience."

Look lets be realistic. Penn and Teller are great magicians, illusionists. They, for all we know could be **** as people. They might be dishonest in their business dealings. They could be lousy lovers. They might also be stearling individuals. We just dont know.

We do know thay arent professional hypnotists. We know that dont even do "hypnosis type" acts. I have no idea what their motivation for doing the hypnosis tv thing was, but I do know one of the people they featured extensively in their show. You might be interested to hear her version of what was taped and what eventually was actually aired. Look in the archives here, search wendi friesen, or penn and teller, I expect that will locate the thread. Or contact Wendi herself at http://www.wendi.com/

I have no idea why Penn and Teller said what they said, I do know it is so far removed from my personal experience and that of my clients, that they must have gotten their information from another planet. Except that they spoke to some people I know and who are competent. Now that means to me, that they either dont understand the language as spoken in this country, or they had an agenda, that they then tailored the facts to support. I have no idea what motive they might have to do that, so I am left with a connundrum.

"I have asked my girlfriend about her experience with being hypnotised and she says says that she felt she didnt have control even though she knew she was riding a chair. she was in a horse race and just had to win."

Yup.

"If you plant a post hynotic suggestion so the next time they see you, they go under easier. how long does that last for? could you effectivly use it whenever?"

Unless you specify a time limit, it will last forever. That does not mean that the person will forever fully manifest the suggestion. The individual, if they desire, can learn to adapt that stimulus, so they 'end up' 'not in trance' but some other state.

cheers,

skip

[Pdrive]

Norticat,

Straight up:
...

You're first post in this thread was not a good start, if you wish to learn something from the "old hands" here. Since your previous research on the topic of hypnotism was so limited (and you MUST have realized this), it amazes me that you can have such strong opinions on a topic you know so little about.

Now, I have locked horns with Skip in the past, after which I realised he was actually giving me some really, really sound advice. As a complete Noob to this list and someone (apparently) wants to know more, I have one piece of advice for you:

Go down to your local library and check out some books on hypnothearpy and stage hypnosis. They're absolutely free!

With some more knowledge inside of you, you'll find that who begin to understand the viewpoints of those on this board better.

[Russ]

I saw part of the Penn & Teller show.

Had they taken the time to read just ONE good book on hypnosis, they'd have known they were making asses of themselves.

A pity because they are good magicians.

[Don]

Their goal is entertaining viewers, debunking and getting ratings, not finding the truth.

[norticat]

Pdrive. Seeing as you wish to be an xxxxx then your comments have been noted. Skip and I were conversing about a subject and I was just asking a seasoned pro about his views on some questions. Your input was not needed or appreciated. I may not be a regular here but when someone new has questions and someone can answer them without being an xxxxx, then people learn way faster than someone that tells me to go to a library! the only library I have is a house in a street and the only magic I find in that library is stuff for kids. I have read, I have veiwed dvd's on the subject, I have even practiced a little of the tests on friends. I asked a question of skip and he gratiously answered. Now go find someone else to be a xxxxx with ! your kind are never wanted on forums so start to look at yourself and see IF YOU can make yourself a better communicator!

[Pdrive]

wow, intense.

What was with the massive delay in response time norticat.

Cheers for the abuse, thanks to your words of wisdom, I am now embarking on a journey of self-discovery. Ive realised what an ecksecksecksecks I can be some times, and I am now questioning my whole belief structure.

My first realiseation has been:

Boy, do I hate myself for having to resort to crude sarcasim.


Have a nice life.