View Full Version : Christian faith healers
Yapper
11-24-2004, 12:23 AM
Are they for real? And if so, can they be explained rationally? I'm sure many here are familiar with popular televangelists like Benny Hinn, Chris Oyakhilome, or Reinhart Bonke, who frequently make claims about the manifested healing power of god, some quite phenomenal e.g. HIV cured, cripples, blindness, and sometimes even resurrection. The whole healing miracles business seems to be pretty widespread in the church world. Being a skeptic myself I want to finally get to the bottom of this and find the truth for myself. I am well familiar with the responses of true believers on this issue, but this forum seems like a good place to get objective responses from people who are well versed in hypnotism and the mind and that sort of thing. I know it's not only Christians who claim healing miracles, but since I live in a country (world?) dominated by this religion I've haven't been exposed to much else and haven't had much luck searching for information. I'd like to get your general views or miraculous faith healings, and if possible, please point me to some information where I can read up on faith healing claims in other religions and by other alternative means.
Terry (existing)
11-24-2004, 10:10 AM
I believe there is some doubt as to whether you should receive a reply or not to this post. First you are asking us to comment on persons we know nothing about, simply based on our expertise in hypnosis....Secondly, you wish us to either support or condemn a group of people, not just one or two...Both of these are insulting to my intelligence....
I will refrain from further comment, it seems unnescessary.......
Yapper
11-24-2004, 11:31 AM
If you know nothing about the subject then I don't expect you to comment. Judging by the subject matter of this board I was hoping to find some people here who are interested and know something about alternative methods of healing and could share their opinions with me. Perhaps I was wrong in assuming that, or maybe I should have worded my post better.
Yapper,
I dont think your question is going to be answered to your satisfaction, not here, perhaps not anywhere.
Here is why.
In order to answer your question, we would need to know how healing works, and we dont. But we arent alone. The faith healers dont know, doctors dont know, shamans dont know, and hypnotists dont know. Now Ill recognize that the list wasnt all inclusive, but the honest truth is, no one knows.
Soooooooooo
When someone is healed, doctors might say their ministrations did it, when all they did was relieve symptoms and allow healing to occurr.
Faith healers might say, "God did it."
Hypnotists might say, "The mind (unconscious) did it."
And shamans might say "Xxxxxx did it."
And strangely enough each of them would be correct, and each would be incorrect depending on your point of view.
We DO know that it is the individual that does the healing, no matter what the protocol, and that persons beliefs and attitudes, about the particular protocol they are using, has a profound effect on its effectiveness.
Thats why I suspect you wont find an answer that you like here, or elsewhere, because it doesnt exist, if my understanding of the difinitiveness of your question is correct.
skip
Merlin
11-24-2004, 07:29 PM
1st, I agree with Skip, You likely won't find the answer you want.
2nd, I'm usually a disappointment to Terry. I often answer posts.
Faith healers in general: They get results. Often when others haven't been successful. That's a plus in my book.
>Benny Hinn, Chris Oyakhilome, or Reinhart Bonke,...
Don't know them. No comment.
Faith/prayer:
Well, the prayed for healing can happen over a distance. That rules out hypnosis.
Prayer has been shown to work when the recipient was unaware of the prayers. Eliminates beliefs of the recipient.
Prayer has been shown to work when those praying didn't know the target or the recipient's needs. Seems to eliminate *remote-influence*.
My own *opinion*
I use the method myself.
Unregistered
11-25-2004, 12:02 AM
Faith/prayer:
Well, the prayed for healing can happen over a distance. That rules out hypnosis.
Prayer has been shown to work when the recipient was unaware of the prayers. Eliminates beliefs of the recipient.
Prayer has been shown to work when those praying didn't know the target or the recipient's needs. Seems to eliminate *remote-influence*.
My own *opinion*
I use the method myself.
Right on Merlin on all 4 counts !
And those whose mortality was given continuance as was mine from faithful prayer are free of doubt. Who knows how many like recipients have been, and will continue being graced with this blessed experience...
Yapper
11-25-2004, 12:25 PM
Thank you for your responses.
Well skip, I fear you may be correct that I won't find a satisfactory answer. Lately, faith has been a constant struggle for me, I feel like if I could just find some tangible proof then I could fully believe, or disbelieve, either way my mind could rest at ease. Raised a Christian, I admit 'hell' is a big factor in my uneasiness; don't want to wake up (or not...) one day and, whoops, there's a giant sky-daddy wielding a giant hammer shaking his head and going, "You messed up big time." But I digress.
Merlin, that is all nice and good but it's all hear-say. I have no proof of the effectiveness of prayer, in my own experience and observation I think it's safe to say it fails about 99% of the time and the other 1% could be credited simply to coincidence. Since you say it has been "shown" to work in all those instances, I would like to see some specific examples, but even then I don't know if it would be possible to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that supernatural intervention had anything to do with the perceived results. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not trying to start an argument with you, merely expressing my doubts, I thank you for sharing your opinion.
Merlin
11-25-2004, 12:50 PM
Hi Yapper,
Christianity is about faith, not fact.
I doubt any amout of fact would be of benefit to you. It can always be rationalised away.
As for the tests, they were done scientifically, blind and double blind, with sufficient statistical significance to be accepted scientifically valid.
>I have no proof of the effectiveness of prayer, in my own experience and observation I think it's safe to say it fails about 99% of the time and the other 1% could be credited simply to coincidence.
As you say.
You have estabished your beliefs.
>I would like to see some specific examples, but even then I don't know if it would be possible to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that supernatural intervention had anything to do with the perceived results.
No amount of evidence will suffice.
>I am not trying to start an argument with you, merely expressing my doubts
You're welcome to your doubts or disbeliefs.
It matters not to me.
:)
TaffyE
11-26-2004, 06:48 PM
The placebo has approximately a 30% positive result.
CraigB
03-29-2005, 02:09 AM
Are they for real? And if so, can they be explained rationally? I'm sure many here are familiar with popular televangelists like Benny Hinn, Chris Oyakhilome, or Reinhart Bonke, who frequently make claims about the manifested healing power of god, some quite phenomenal e.g. HIV cured, cripples, blindness, and sometimes even resurrection. The whole healing miracles business seems to be pretty widespread in the church world. Being a skeptic myself I want to finally get to the bottom of this and find the truth for myself. I am well familiar with the responses of true believers on this issue, but this forum seems like a good place to get objective responses from people who are well versed in hypnotism and the mind and that sort of thing. I know it's not only Christians who claim healing miracles, but since I live in a country (world?) dominated by this religion I've haven't been exposed to much else and haven't had much luck searching for information. I'd like to get your general views or miraculous faith healings, and if possible, please point me to some information where I can read up on faith healing claims in other religions and by other alternative means.Yapper, my understanding is that they are for real and engage in a wide spread format such as television to simply get their message across. I've personally seen many healings and even recently when my daughter was in danger of having her right leg removed from a rare and chronic condition called reflex sympathetic dystrophy this method was engaged in. A rational explaination is absolutely explainable, for which I am very thankful for. It has little to do with just the healing of the person, but alot to do with God's unrestrained love for the people seeking the healing. Without God's love for me I would have a darling daughter with no right leg. I suggest that anyone who really wants to know the answer, not to take a passive, "well, you'll never really know for sure approach", but to ask the One who does the healing. He actually REALLY does exist and wants you to know Him...
Simple Guy
03-29-2005, 08:37 PM
Craig,
I'm happy that your daughter is better. I'd caution you about transferring
your good feelings about this too far and wide. Without commenting
about any specific ministers, I'd point out that the televangelical field has
had more than had its share of self-serving, fraudulent charlatans that
do a disservice to the viewers, contributors and ultimately to the
god that they profess to serve. This is not to dismiss the healing
power of faith. Interestingly enough, you don't see amputated legs
growing back, missing eyes restored to sockets and other such biblicaly
proportioned non-slight of hand bona fide miracles that are evidenced
by reputable medical authorities. Again, I'm pleased that your daughter is
better, but spare us the proselytizing.
George Molakal
11-13-2005, 05:01 PM
Christian faith healers are not hypnotists. They themselves are not responsible for the healing. It is Lord Jesus Christ. If you have the faith and the belief, you will understand this yourself. I have received miracles and there is simply no natural and logical explaination for the same. Definitely it is not hypnosis.
If you need more debate on this, please email me at georgemm@gmail.com
Cheers
George
Poodle
11-13-2005, 05:40 PM
You are ever so right, God, Allah, Spirit or whatever you want to call HIM, does the healing. We are only the highly trained guides. It's like with little children, they only know LOVE. Parents then program children to be afraid of this and that and pretty soon the poor little kid has a full grown phobia(s)/ anxieties, stress. Their little lives are full of the words "Don't Do _____ or ... " Then life can throw some people some nasty curves. YES, You can pray about it but I would prefer that you pray that the Lord delivers you or whomever to a highly trained hypnotist, MD, psychiatrist or dentist and that person has great skill in that area. We only put HIS work back the way He intended it to be. You go to a Medical Doctor for all kinds of reasons. I'm sure you go to a dentist too. The same is with hypnosis. We do fix problems, make them right again. There are a lot of people who cannot have anesthesia so those of us who have trained in that area can convince the mind that it feels no pain so the surgeon can do his work so the patient can have the surgery to correct whatever problem and live to see another day. Also, on chronic pain, with a MD's referral, we can lessen the pain to a very comfortable level. We can help alleviate the nasty side effects of chemotherapy, etc. Just think of hypnobirthing. If a woman has been taught self-hypnosis she can and will have a baby with no pain, which is great in a time of an emergency. Say, you break your arm and are miles and miles away from any medical care. If you know self-hypnosis, there will be no pain and you can safely get to a hospital or medical facility or even if you have cut yourself and are bleeding to death you can stop the flow of blood so you can get to a medical facility to get it fixed. We cannot hypnotize a person against that person's will and we cannot make anyone do anything that is against their moral code. NOTE: BEWARE of what you ask for as you WILL RECEIVE it. Actually, I prefer to work with very religious people as it gives me a great idea of where they are coming from and makes my work soooo much easier. You obvously don't know what hypnosis is or how it works or you would not have posted what you did. Your mind is in hypnosis every 90-120 minutes of every day of your life! Your mind is in hypnosis right before going to sleep and awakening in the morning. Your mind is in hypnosis every time you are engrossed in a good book, movie or TV program. Then there's highway hypnosis or even going across town and wondering WHY??? Didn't know you'd been hypnotized so many times did ya?? Also, FYI, I am a hypnotist and an ordained minister. How's that grab ya? Pood
Poodle
11-13-2005, 05:46 PM
PS -- I would highly suggest you watch Benny Hinn on TBN. He is a master hypnotist without even learning it!! On the crusades the whole audience is totally mesmerized (hypnotized) by him and that's why he does what he does. Slain in the spirit -- natural phenomena known by any good minister around and some that aren't ministers too. Enough of this battle!! Pood
Poodle: how do you know that Hinn and others haven't learned hypnosis?
Poodle
11-13-2005, 09:47 PM
Don, by reading biographies and autobiographies. Hinn is a master at mesmerizing for sure then comes the clincher of slain in the spirit and we both know what that is. Dateline did an expose on him a couple of years ago. Everyone died six months to a year later as he told them they were CURED and HEALED. We DO NOT do that. We tell them to go back and discuss it with their Doctor. We are not Medical Doctors and cannot advise against stopping any medication or treatment. Actually, it's pretty good reading if you want to spend the money or time. I have also noticed that anyone that gets really ill on The 700 Club runs to a Medical Dr. really fast. If they can really heal, why don't they just do it. There are some miracles in the world but they are rare for sure. A Christian bookstore in your area should have a complete set of Hinn's books. They are interesting to say the least. Pood
Terry (existing)
11-13-2005, 10:44 PM
Anyone ever been to the grotto at Lourdes, or seen the indepth investigations carried out by the Church when a healing is claimed? If they don't know how it occurs, how should we? All I know, is that the grotto is covered all over with discarded crutches, and they are just a few of the healings that have taken place there. A friend of mine, older than I, was on a walking tour of Europe, and happened to be at Fatima during the aparitions there. He saw what everyone else saw, the sun doing a pirouette in the sky, yet we know it couldn't possibly have happened don't we? If it had, we would have been destroyed, yet everybody saw it not just a few.... Want to explain it as mass halucination? Suits me, I don't believe it, but you can if you wish..... Personally I believe we are all miracles, but then I place a high value on me, perhaps others don;t
Hi, Poodle.
If you were to write your autobiography, would you included information on your toilet training? Chances are you wouldn't. Just because someone doesn't include a statement such as "Then I spent a wonderful week studying hypnotherapy!" doesn't mean they didn't do it. I just don't know.
A friend of mine, Phil Farber (a hypnotherapist and NLP Master Prac) has a DVD set out called "How to be a Megalomaniac." It reveals many of the secrets of the fake faith healers. I attended one of his workshops and he revealed a lot of little-known techniques including the ol' touch 'em on the forehead and have them collapse.
Personally, I'm a firm believer in healing through faith and belief (scientists, with no name for it, have invented the expression "spontaneous remission")...but that doesn't mean I believe that all those who claim to be faith healers are doing that.
I mean, I may have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night!
solaris152000
11-14-2005, 09:03 AM
Youre asking for the opinion of people.
The people on this forum may be experts at hypnosis, but not Doctors (Who one would think would be the best to examie this phenomonom).
IMO its a sham, its purely a placebo effect.
teadaze
11-14-2005, 12:45 PM
>The people on this forum may be experts at hypnosis, but not Doctors (Who one would think would be the best to examie this phenomonom).
why would doctors be the best to examine this phenomenon?
Terry (existing)
11-14-2005, 03:20 PM
>The people on this forum may be experts at hypnosis, but not Doctors (Who one would think would be the best to examie this phenomonom).
why would doctors be the best to examine this phenomenon? Actually, they are not, but are ONE of the group chosen to do so, since many disiplines are interested in this subject, and all are involved in the group that does the investgations at Lourdes, and I imagine, though I don't know personally, that such groups exist all over, and do the same investgations at other religious sites were miracles are claimed to have happened. To date, in spite of all the work done, no proof of the cause of miracles has been promoted by these people. Why for example should hypnotists be considered as experts in miracles, just because some of our clients think we make them happen? Anyway, before such a discussion can have any value, it would be nescessary to agree on what constitutes a miracle don't you think?
Poodle
11-14-2005, 05:50 PM
Yes, there are definitely a few real miracles on this earth and I have heard of a Roman Catholic Priest back on the east coast of the USA that has great results. If I were to write my biography you had better bet your sweet bippie I'd put in all my hypnosis training, NLP training, TLT training, Reiki attunements not to mention educational accomplishments and include the stats of ALL clients. Just because I am an ordained minister doesn't mean in the least that I do NOT believe in what I do. I am very, very proud of where I've been and what I've learned. I have always wondered what a person learns in a weekend course -- in my opinion--not much! Noooowwww, so we don't upset the masses who may visit this site, I suggest we get off this subject and fast.
guest
11-14-2005, 07:53 PM
Poodle:
Who ordained you? Were they the same people that told you that
the devil was invented by the Church during the Inquisition as you
told us in another thread? Ignorance!
solaris152000
11-15-2005, 12:28 AM
>The people on this forum may be experts at hypnosis, but not Doctors (Who one would think would be the best to examie this phenomonom).
why would doctors be the best to examine this phenomenon?
They could directly find out if the patients liver is still cancerous or not.
IMO its a sham, its purely a placebo effect.
If they achieve healing and health as the result of a placebo, what's you're problem with it?
The Placebo Effect: An Interdisciplinary Exploration by Anne Harrington
Meaning, Medicine and the 'Placebo Effect' (Cambridge Studies in Medical Anthropology) by Daniel E. Moerman, Alan Harwood (Series Editor)
Understanding the Placebo Effect in Complementary Medicine: Theory, Practice and Research by David Peters (Editor)
Charlie
11-15-2005, 03:18 AM
I am a healer and I have an imaginary friend who helps me. The more I believe in my imaginary friend the more effective I am, so I think my imaginary friend is actually real, after all. You can't prove otherwise, so let's just leave it at that. :rolleyes:
Charlie, there is an occult system known as "chaos magick." One of their beliefs is that there are no gods, angels, demons, etc., but the idea of certain entities having certain abilities can help you perform magick even though they don't exist. The idea is to focus your mind on the concept of such an entity until it becomes real to you, then work with it. As they put it, "Fake it until you make it."
Did you know you were a Chaos Magician? :eek:
Charlie
11-15-2005, 01:15 PM
Charlie, there is an occult system known as "chaos magick." One of their beliefs is that there are no gods, angels, demons, etc., but the idea of certain entities having certain abilities can help you perform magick even though they don't exist. The idea is to focus your mind on the concept of such an entity until it becomes real to you, then work with it. As they put it, "Fake it until you make it."
That does make quite a lot of sense to me. A deep trance phenomenon/identification, I guess. (And much of religion seems to be about this. Internalising mythological figures and finding them useful. (And if religious folk would stop at the 'useful' bit, rather than claiming to know 'truth', then, who knows, perhaps the world would be a more peaceful and interesting place......))
Did you know you were a Chaos Magician? :eek:
No, I didn't. :eek:
Of course my comment in previous post was more to make a point than anything else.
I guess it's somewhat of a cliche for many on this board, but......... "whether you believe something or whether you don't, you're probably right!"
;)
teadaze
11-15-2005, 03:32 PM
>They could directly find out if the patients liver is still cancerous or not.
Would that prove or disprove the existence of miracles?
Merlin
11-15-2005, 07:00 PM
>The people on this forum may be experts at hypnosis, but not Doctors (Who one would think would be the best to examie this phenomonom).
interesting assumption.
One or more of us are licensed medical doctors who prefer hypnosis over chemicals.
Terry (existing)
11-15-2005, 07:32 PM
>They could directly find out if the patients liver is still cancerous or not.
Would that prove or disprove the existence of miracles? I believe we have already concluded that proving miracles is impossible haven't we? A miracle is what you believe it is, and if you have no faith you will never prove a miracle, and if you do have faith, you have no need of proof, they are all around you when you look with seeing eyes.
teadaze
11-16-2005, 10:24 AM
>I believe we have already concluded that proving miracles is impossible haven't we?
Oh HAVE we? Well im glad you cleared that one up for me terry... :-)
"I believe we have already concluded that proving miracles is impossible haven't we?"
If we could bring it into the realm of proof, would it cease to be miraculous?
And an additional wondering ...
How many times does it take, for a miracle to be repeated, before it ceases to be miraculous"
For example, if Jesus had walked on water 10 times would it no longer be miraculous? 50 times? 100?
Would this then mean, that at least part of the definition of miracle would, of needs be, a one trial effect?
skip
student of philosophy 102
Charlie
11-17-2005, 04:03 AM
If we could bring it into the realm of proof, would it cease to be miraculous?
And an additional wondering ...
How many times does it take, for a miracle to be repeated, before it ceases to be miraculous"
For example, if Jesus had walked on water 10 times would it no longer be miraculous? 50 times? 100?
Would this then mean, that at least part of the definition of miracle would, of needs be, a one trial effect?
And additional wonderings ...
If Jesus walked on water but nobody saw him do it, would it still be miraculous?
If Jesus was actually one of the greatest psychological illusionists of 2000 years ago, and convinced enough people that he could walk on water, would it still be miraculous?
If Derren Brown lived 2000 years ago, and convinced enough people that he could walk on water, would it still be considered miraculous?
If Jesus, 2000 years ago, did the Anthony Robbins type Firewalk ( instead of the the Jesus type Waterwalk ), would Jesus' Firewalk still be considered miraculous?
If Anthony Robbins, 2000 years ago, did the Firewalk, would Anthony Robbins Firewalk be considered miraculous?
If Jesus was alive today, and appeared to walk on water, would as many people be as prepared to believe it to be as miraculous as they might have done 2000 years ago?
http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon5.gif
Ive walked on fire many times, and still consider it miraculous.
skip
Charlie
11-17-2005, 09:44 AM
Ive walked on fire many times, and still consider it miraculous.
skip
I've read many of your posts, and I still (hero)worship you.
;)
Then dont glance at my clay feet!
Others have and for some reason they get mad at me! :)
skip
Terry (existing)
11-18-2005, 11:17 AM
That's because they demand perfection from those they worship, but have no desire to do the work to bring themselves closer to that state, it would take too much effort I guess..... I'll start to worry when you cease looking at your feet (G)
Charlie
11-19-2005, 02:30 AM
Then dont glance at my clay feet!
If you were to do a lot of firewalks would it make your feet miraculously transform into pottery..... ?
:eek:
Or glazed toenuts!
Oh thats so baaaad. :(
skip
parsa
11-19-2005, 08:12 AM
>Or glazed toenuts! :D :D :D
At least they won't make you fat....
Simple Guy
11-19-2005, 09:19 AM
[QUOTE=skip]Or glazed toenuts!
Sole-food? :eek: I'm off to do penance for this self inflicted pun-ishment.
Soarhigh7
11-19-2005, 05:54 PM
Don, by reading biographies and autobiographies. Hinn is a master at mesmerizing for sure then comes the clincher of slain in the spirit and we both know what that is. Dateline did an expose on him a couple of years ago. Everyone died six months to a year later as he told them they were CURED and HEALED. We DO NOT do that. We tell them to go back and discuss it with their Doctor. We are not Medical Doctors and cannot advise against stopping any medication or treatment. Actually, it's pretty good reading if you want to spend the money or time. I have also noticed that anyone that gets really ill on The 700 Club runs to a Medical Dr. really fast. If they can really heal, why don't they just do it. There are some miracles in the world but they are rare for sure. A Christian bookstore in your area should have a complete set of Hinn's books. They are interesting to say the least. Pood
poodle: I went to a Benny Hinn crusade and have run the circle on my doubts and feelings regarding his healing-power. It was so sad to see the desperate among the crowd that day...wheelchairs, stretchers even. I have also been in Church services with an incredible annointing in the presence of the Holy Spirit. Can I explain it? No..when it's genuine, it's awesome. When it's contrived, it feels manipulated and i don't buy into it. It's the discernment that's key...
My bottom line is this: whenever i begin to bad-mouth these evangelists, I get a "check" in my spirit....and I immediately know not to condemn for I "will be judged according to how I judge"...a karmic-slap will come my way. So...I have given myself permission to live in ambiguity concerning this...it's bigger than me. I would love to talk with you more about this some time. :o
If you get the filled ones, they're probably stuffed with toe-jam.
:eek
Jellied toenuts?
It is as the swine philosopher said, "I pink, therefore I ham!"
Sorry I read that yesterday and simply couldnt resist.
skip
Merlin
11-20-2005, 09:54 AM
I know a man who was blind.
The optic nerves were not attached.
He was healed instantaneously (or at least a few seconds)
I'm not aware of any non-supernatural methodology of accomplishing such things.
I work with the mind, helping the body to heal.
This was clearly beyond my experiences.
Merlin
11-20-2005, 10:08 AM
>>>Groan<<<:eek:
Nothing in this world can be explained other than by opinion or faith.
I was once at Knock in Ireland, a site of an alleged visitation by the Virgin Mary, where many RCs travel for healing.
One man I met was suffering from MS and in a wheelchair, who was convinced that simply being near to the site of the visitation would remove the MS, lock, stock and barrel.
He came from a small town on the wild west coast, a town where I had fished as a young man, so we got to talking about fishing, women, God, the Polish Pope, whether Guiness was better in Dublin or Nottingham..and fishing.. and women. Eventually, after a pleasant hour we moved onto the topic of hypnosis and he said that he had been hypnotised on stage the previous year and friends said that he had done a jig - a feat of which he was patently incapable - but he could not remember doing it, and had tried to repeat it at home without success. His dog was amused, he said.
He had three opinions about it. The first was that somehow, God had acted through the hypnotist to show him what could be achieved, and the second that his friends had been hypnotised into believing that he had done a jig, when in fact he had been - as he thought - motionless all the time. The third was that Satan had acted through the hypnotist to tease him with the idea of being well, so that he could feel bitter disappointment and lose hope (something the Devil enjoys greatly, he said).
Of course, as a good Catholic he preferred the first, but had a sneaking suspicion about the other two, so he had come to Knock to ask the Virgin Mary to ask God to put up or shut up. He was certain that God would not fail him. He joined the queue and I went off to buy genuine relics at £4.95 each for a research project.
I saw him later and we had a drink together. He was the same as he had been before: still in his wheelchair, but not at all disappointed that God had not performed an immediate cure, and quite elated that he had managed to get to the front of the queue and touch the shrine.
We parted and I went back to England. About three months later something triggered a remembrance of the conversation we'd had over a pint of the black, and I remembered one phrase. I had asked him whether he was disappointed not to be doing a jig and whether maybe God had let him down. He answered 'What do I know about God's workload, I'm probably in a queue'.
There were no miracles that day, but a lot of queuing.
Jack
Poodle
11-22-2005, 12:01 PM
I was watching a tape last night by a very well known hypnotist and CI who said "we are more aligned with the faith healers, be it Christian or witch doctors" than we are of Medical Doctors as MD's practice science and WE practice on the "belief" system. Sure upset my applecart! I would really like to believe that we are way above that. Our clients come to us believing that we can and we do. Guess the only difference is that we don't tell them to stop taking any meds or offer any medical advice at all except to suggeset they ask their Doctor. Hope this subject can now die and be buried!! Pood
Guest
11-22-2005, 12:24 PM
Poodle says she is a female in another thread. She says she is an American Baptist minister. She wrongly told us that the devil is the creation of the church in the Inquisition. Female ordination is almost unheard of among American Baptists.
Terry (existing)
11-22-2005, 01:33 PM
Poodle says she is a female in another thread. She says she is an American Baptist minister. She wrongly told us that the devil is the creation of the church in the Inquisition. Female ordination is almost unheard of among American Baptists. Oh dear, can you tell me were Anna Baptist came from (EG).......Couldn't resist that one. Now, I don't believe Poodle has specified gender on this board, though some of us have rather assumed from the name that it reffers to a female, while others have assumed a minister to be more likely male. Who cares? If you must post inuendo however, I suggest you at least do us the courtesy of registering, annonymity ill becomes your inuendos..
Poodle
11-22-2005, 06:27 PM
Sorry to inform the guest but The American Baptist Convention has long held with FEMALE ministers!! The Southern Baptist -- NO!!
Charlie
11-22-2005, 07:33 PM
Poodle says she is a female in another thread. She says she is an American Baptist minister. She wrongly told us that the devil is the creation of the church in the Inquisition. Female ordination is almost unheard of among American Baptists.
Poodle is actually a transgendered baptist minister, who also happens to be the reincarnation of an egyptian cat, with the deepest hypnotic eyes that you can possibly imagine.
And that, my friend, is the plain and simple truth.
Terry (existing)
11-23-2005, 10:50 AM
Poodle is actually a transgendered baptist minister, who also happens to be the reincarnation of an egyptian cat, with the deepest hypnotic eyes that you can possibly imagine.
And that, my friend, is the plain and simple truth. Three stikes and you're out..... It is neither "plain", "simple", or even the "truth" (G) so you're out.
Charlie
11-23-2005, 04:53 PM
Three stikes and you're out..... It is neither "plain", "simple", or even the "truth" (G) so you're out.
Are you excommunicating me?
;)
Terry (existing)
11-24-2005, 09:01 AM
Are you excommunicating me?
;) Hell no, if I did that I would have one less person to pick on (EG)...
Charlie
11-24-2005, 12:47 PM
Hell no, if I did that I would have one less person to pick on (EG)...
:D :D :D
BTW, I think I found a pic of Poodle pre-reincarnation.
http://www.fairiesworld.com/artists/pixs/carriehawkes/CHawksBastGoddess.jpg
Cute.
I think someone might refer to you as a BASTard!
:)
Poodle
11-25-2005, 06:41 PM
Gee, Gosh, thanks guys. I do have green eyes but ... Maybe that's why I am such a wonderful hypnotist -- those big, beautiful, green hypnotic eyes. NOW LOOK DIRECTLY INTO MY EYES AND ... In all my past life regressions I can't remember of ever being a cat. LAUGHINGLY, POOD -- I wish I knew how to change my name on this website!!
jackbutler5555
11-26-2005, 11:07 AM
You may have two questions:
1. Does faith healing work?
A. Objective observers assert that it does work sometimes.
2. Does that prove there is a God?
A. No. What appears to be faith healing may have an explanation that we can't come up with right now.
Terry (existing)
11-26-2005, 01:06 PM
You may have two questions:
1. Does faith healing work?
A. Objective observers assert that it does work sometimes.
2. Does that prove there is a God?
A. No. What appears to be faith healing may have an explanation that we can't come up with right now. A common observation, but not true fact I would suggest. 1. Does faith healing work? Yes it does, every time it is applied to one of faith. That is why it is called faith healing. If you have no faith you use the services of a hypnotherapist...... 2. Does that prove there is a God, Well of course it doesn't, the existance of God is a matter of faith, and would cease to be so it it were provable. Faith healing is not intended to offer proof of anything, just change the life of the presenter for the better "God's way". Now when you can claim truthfully to know exactly how God thinks, come back and tell me please..... The gentleman in Jack's story about Nock is typical of the faithfull, and I know of one such who goes every year to Lourdes, he has no expectation of a cure for himself, but goes to assist those in wheelchairs, as his way of giving thanks for changes in his life which resulted from his first visit to that shrine. He didn't get what he expected, but did find his life changed for the better, and is gratefull...Your beliefs are your own, and you have the right to believe whatever you wish, but please don't make the mistake of believing you know God just because you believe he exists, or that you know if he has "cured" someone HIS way not the way you expect.......
jackbutler5555
11-26-2005, 04:56 PM
What exactly did I say that you actually disagree with?
Funny to see a bunch of adults spending their days yapping on an online forum. (are you guys amateurs?) Nevertheless, with the ambition of youth, I defy all of you.
Before the scientific application of hypnoticsm, it was widely used in many occult practices and rituals. I find it interesting how some modern day religious leaders are being called hypnotists. What if they are legit? Among the rotten apples, there might be a few who speak truth?
Pardon me, but I shall first assume that an omnipotent God exists. Based on our current state as humans, most of us have a mind, a will, and emotions. Through these, we communicate with our Creator. Many religious practices are based on the assumption that the creator and created do communicate. In that case, we are all capable of communication with the divine, if we have an honest desire.
When it comes to faith healings, I will refrain from speaking of my experiences, but rather ask, if we assume that a God exists, then does this God interfere with the natural order of nature? Or could miracles (or faith healings) actually be a natural phenomenon that science cannot explain at the moment? (In history when humans couldn't understand something, they provided mythical or divine explanations) Or could it be both an act of God while the laws of nature aren't violated?
Or maybe, as we grow older and experience the world, we lose our sense of wonder and excitement. Scientific rationale takes the place of childish wonder, and we end up living cold lonely lives where everything makes sense and we are the gods?
Simple Guy
01-21-2006, 07:06 PM
Blah,
"with the ambition of youth, I defy all of you," okay, but all you did
was make a ramble sprinkled with some blah, blah, blah. No one
here would have a clue as to what it is that you want to defy,
nor any reason to care why.
Poodle
01-21-2006, 08:34 PM
No one here is disputing the fact that God heals if that person believes in God when in fact He does all the healing or has given us the power over our own bodies to heal, just as hair grows and fingernails grow, wounds grow over and new skin appears so does the human body heals itself. I just think that with the world in the shape it is today, the Man is a little busy trying to hold it together which cannot be an easy task. I'm sitting here trying to think of any country that likes its neighbors or is not having BIG problems. It reminds me of an old Kingston Trio song that was sorta: The French hate the Africans, the Africans hate the Dutch and I don't like anybody very much!!
I have heard of a Roman Catholic priest back East that healed. True or false. I can't say. I will say when I was down and I do mean down, we used a multi-pronged approach here on the Forum of self-hypnosis, NLP and prayers from people all around the world who have never met me. Did it work? You better believe it did! Which part worked or was it all three? We will never know but it was a miracle for sure. In fact, it was a series of miracles. You are allowed your choice or maybe you could expand your mind to include all three. I am deeply grateful to my friends here on the Forum and other places.
You ask two good questions, Blah. What are adults doing spending their days yapping on an online forum? And are we all amateurs?
To the first: I can only speak personally, and the answer is not simple, but I spend some of my time yapping on this forum for three main reasons:
1) I learn stuff I didn't know and have the opportunity to converse with therapists throughout the world who often have quite different viewpoints than those I have on a wide variety of questions. In a totally selfish way this helps me to be a better hypnotherapist, which also benefits my clients.
2) Sometimes, there is an oportunity to help someone to overcome a problem in their life, or at least point them in the right direction to get help, and I have done that, mostly paid, for most of my working life. It's nice to do it for free occasionally.
3) And finally, I am such a believer in the honesty, truth and healing power of hypnotherapy that I think I ought to tell as many people as possible, and help those who are just starting out in hypnotherapy.
To me those aims seem worth the few minutes per day I spend on this forum. I suspect that other regulars feel exactly the same.
Amateurs? I don't know the answer to that question. If the definition of a professional is that he or she does it full time, as a career, then I'm a professional and have been for 30 years.
God? I don't profess to know God or His motives in any way whatsoever. I'm quite sure He know me in every way, but second guessing an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being might not be the best way to spend my allotted span.
Jack
jamiebuturff
04-02-2006, 04:44 PM
You ask for an explaination to faith healing that would be rational. Well, what's rational to you and what's rational to somebody else could be quite different. It all depends on your conditioning (parents, where you grew up, your experiences, etc) or your belief system. This varies widely from person to person and from culture to culture.
For example, the Bible says that we were created in the image of God. Jesus says that we would be able to do greater deeds than Him, and Psalms says that we are gods and Sons of the Most High. To some this means that we have the exact same capabilities as God and once we realize the Christ consciousness within us we will then "see" that we all are indeed God, ar rather all things are God. Unfortunately, most people are taught that God is outside of us and that we are sinners and need Jesus as an intermediary. If you hold the latter belief then a miraculous healing will not be rational and you will not be able to understand the very basic principles involved. If you hold the former belief then you are very much open to seeing your true nature and the principles behind healing with Light and Energy will be very easy to grasp.
It all depends on your conditioning and where you currently stand in your spiritual development.
Poodle
04-03-2006, 12:53 PM
Many churches are now changing the view of "God" from a fearful vengeful God to an all loving "God" -- hate the sin but love the sinner. Actually in many ways hypnosis is very much like faith healing. Our clients have to expect, trust and believe. As I remember the hymn was "Trust and Obey". Could it possibly be that Prophets in the Old Testament were using self-hypnosis? Food for thought, huh? Also Paul did what may now be termed as "hypnosis". When one goes to church on Sunday one gets many auditory anchors. This is a NLP practice and I don't think most ministers/priests are aware they are doing it but the anchors are there anyway.