View Full Version : Review - New Code and Toltec Sorcery with Damian Sinclair
02-19-2008, 03:38 PM
I arrived at Earl's Court in London for the first of five weeky sessions that would comprise a course in Toltec Sorcery, from an NLP perspective, with the wisdom and integrity of the New Code. I was surrounded by the buzz of London on a busy Saturday, and I was there to meet a modern day sorcerer, who would teach us what he knows.
In the 1960's, an anthropologist, Carlos Castaneda, began his apprenticeship with Yaqui Indian sorcerer don Juan Matus. Eleven books tell his story. Damain has applied the skills of NLP modelling to these, and two other texts by female apprentices Florinda Donner Grau and Taisha Abelar. From that,this unique course was produced.
Toltec Sorcery is inseperable from the original New Code, as presented in Turtles All The Way Down. There are currently three approaches to the New Code; the John Grinder/Carmen Bostic St Clair games approach, Judith DeLozier's approach of accessing the unconscious through the body, and Damian's approach which views New Code as the place where Toltec Sorcery and classic NLP meet.
The first session covered, amongst other things, the area of Not Doing. Not Doing in Sorcery refers to the 'not doing' of habitual actions and patterns of behaviour, doing something else instead in order to expand posibilities and flexibility. As part of Not Doing, each participant was invited to attend the course as someone else, the Not Doing of who you believe you are. This related to name, occupation, style of dress, behaviour and anything else the person wanted to explore. It produced some interesting results amongst the participants, particularly in terms of behaviour and items of clothing worn. Going around the room, each person introduced the character they had come as. Finally, with absolute congreuence, Damian introduced who he was going to be for the day - a Grigori angel. The introduction was so congreuent that, for me, the moment was less jaw dropping than it otherwise might have been.
A woman asked him "Can I see your wings then?"
Damian's face betrayed nothing, as he slowly turned to her.
"Of course you can see my wings" he told her (gesturing to include the whole group) "We'll do that today."
Later, everyone left the venue to do exercises outside, the Walk of Power and Grace, Stopping the World and Active Dreaming. During Stopping the World, the foundation state for all sorcery practices, Damian, who was walking at the front of the group, offered to show us the wings, and described in detail his unfurling of them. I was expecting nothing to happen, I still had some internal dialogue, but the events that followed came as a suprise to the whole group. It is one thing to accept intellectually the possibility of visual hallucination in trance, yet quite another to actually experience such an event. The whole thing raised questions over the nature of reality and what constitutes proof, questions very relavent to sorcery. What proof would determine a 'genuine' Grigori angel, when compared with someone who makes this claim falsely?
Not Doing homework was set at the end. This involved doing five things you regularly do, differently, and doing five things you would not normally do.
Before the second session I wasn't sure that Damian could still take things to another level, but each session did that.
This session covered the principles and precepts of sorcery, Stalking, and the way in which we percieve, and then consolidate, our own reality. Much was taught in metaphor; Damian is great at hypnotic metaphor, and hypnotic conversations. It can be difficult to sit opposite him, and look at him as he talks, without noticing changes in your own state.
There are two predilections of sorcerers, Stalking and Dreaming. One of the Stalking exercises involved participants stalking a part of themselves, or another person with whom they had an issue. Another was an exercise on Petty Tyrants and how they can best be utilised. A lot of New Code material was used, following Damian's interpretation of, and developments to the New Code.
Much of this session addressed the Assemblage Point and how even small shifts in this can massively change our personal reality. There was an exercise, three points of attention, which produced dramatic results for many people, certainly for me, with hallucinations in every modality occurring around the group. Even in normal states of consciousness, it was hard not to be overly imaginative about what was seen, and what actually occurred in that room.
Over the sessions that followed, the limitations imposed by the social contract and personal history were discused and explored, as well as the idea of Death as an Advisor. All of the capabilities of sorcerers are derived from the unconscious, and unconscious abilities are developed in sorcey, far beyond what occurs in NLP.
The third session dealt with the Toltec process known as the recapitulation, a process involving viewing life events in a detatched way, and reclaiming the energy and emotion still trapped in those contexts.
Dreaming was the main focus of the fourth session, with its processes, methodology, and practical applications being explored.
The final session was aimed at integrating all practical and intellectual material learned. So much happened, and is still happening, and there is far more to this course and to Toltec Sorcery than the limited comments I can make here.
Upon completion of the workshop, the opportunity is presented to commence a nine month practice period with structured daily activities and written work to cover the practical and conceptual aspects of Toltec Sorcery. If established criteria are met, an invitation to participate in the Dreaming Cell, a group who meet to explore and develop sorcery, is issued.
At the beginning I wasn't sure how Damian would make this work. Modelling thirteen books into a five session, or three day course isn't an easy task, but the whole course worked really well.
Great material, and a great bunch of people.
email addresses for the company
02-19-2008, 07:21 PM
Exactly what do you know about the Toltecs as a society of people? Have you read any of the books by don Miguel Ruiz who states that the goal of the Toltec is to master Awareness, Transformation and Love? Does that really equal a cannabolistic society of people in your mind and do you actually firmly and completely believe that NLP and cannabalism are closely related? If so, please explain explicitly as possible.
The closest connection I can find is both parties (Ruiz and Grinder) were in the State of California at one time and close to the same time.
Thanking you in advance,
02-22-2008, 04:28 AM
Hi HobGoblin, very interesting. Iīll go check Damians website, as this seems like a nice modeling-project, actually being taught to others.
Pood....is your questions to HobGoblin an example of your interviewtechnique? I find absolutely no links in HobGoblins story, that I can relate to your ramblings.
All the people on this site, utilizing Reiki, do they think about the violent history of Japan, while performing? Does that hinder any results?
Once again Iīm wondering about the less-than-nice ay to answer posters.
I removed the commercial links, that is why you dont see them.
I also note that that Hobgoblin hasnt been back and responded to poodles questions, tastefully asked or no.
This leads me to suspect that good ole Hob's post is a drive by spamming. And if no further response from Hob is forth comming I will shortly delete the thread.
Either that or I might go in and doctor Hobs post in such a way as to reflect poorly on Damien, and leave that up for the same amount of time, then delete the thread.
Just to equalize the karma.
Do you think that would be fair?
02-22-2008, 05:22 AM
Well yes, if Poodīs (to me) rather strange reply, builds on deleted parts, that I havenīt read, then it is indeed a different topic. And if so I apologize for my own reply.
By link I didnīt refer to website-links, but rather that I didnīt - in HobGoblins text - find any reference to canabalism. Nor do I understand what a societyīs history has to do with a mindset or bag of tools, derived from that society.
02-22-2008, 04:01 PM
Thank you for your most interesting comments and questions.
The goals of a Toltec you've stated from don Miguel Ruiz equate with what was studied and explored on the sorcery course. I was nicely paced in your post, but decided against going where you wanted to lead.
Have fun, from reading your posts I get the impression that you do.
02-22-2008, 04:30 PM
Apologies for the email links, no harm meant but OK its your forum.
You're right, I hadn't been back, I'm currently attending a modular NLP course, we've been kept very busy over the last few days ! As to Pood's questions and 'tasteful' mentioned in the same sentance, appropriate me thinks.
'Drive by spamming' and your last comments. Interesting. I had been told this forum was a warm and friendly place.
Good ole Hob
02-22-2008, 04:44 PM
Pood's strange reply does not build on deleted parts, it is stand- alone-strange, a creation of his own. All that was deleted was two email addresses that I posted in case anyone wanted to know anything specific about sorcery, something I intended as a resource.
I agree, a society's ancient history has nothing to do with tools and techniques modelled from sorcerers who happened to be born into that society.
02-22-2008, 05:46 PM
It reads as advertising to me. When I did some 'net research for more info on this to-me-totallly-unknown topic, I found your identical post in several places over the course of several months. It's not a conversation. It's a cookie cutter spamming.
02-22-2008, 06:42 PM
Pleased you mentioned the net research.
Yes I've posted the review on other forums also. I post it each time hoping for an in depth discussion and exchange of ideas on an area that I'm still studying and exploring. That conversation has not yet happened anywhere, the review is my way of raising the topic. It was suggested to me that this forum is a lively place for discussion with an active esoterics section. I gave it a go.
Can we get the thread back on topic - sorcery and the New Code as areas for discussion. I'd like to hear any comments/questions/experiences on that.
Connie, you were searching for info on a topic you wanted to know more about. Other than my review (!) did you find anything of interest? I'm not an expert, I've done one course, but I'd be happy to answer whatever questions I can and supply whatever info I can.
Looking forward to a discussion,
Can we get the thread back on topic - sorcery and the New Code as areas for discussion. I'd like to hear any comments/questions/experiences on that...
Looking forward to a discussion,
Respectfully, Hob, you it's difficult to have a discussion on this topic based on what you wrote.
You see--and this isn't your fault so much as that of our education system--you didn't really give a "review." Rather, you gave a "report." A report describes what happened. That what you did. A review provides educated commentary on the subject matter. That, unfortunately, wasn't provided.
This isn't meant as an attack on you, it's just meant to say that you've given us so little to comment upon that it's impossible to say much. However, I can make an educated comment on at least one of the things you posted.
You wrote, "In the 1960's, an anthropologist, Carlos Castaneda, began his apprenticeship with Yaqui Indian sorcerer don Juan Matus."
Well, the only thing that is factually accurate there is that it did take place in the 1960s. Carlos was not an anthropologist, he was a student of anthropology at UCLA.
Since then, people have taken a closer look at his claims and his time line. It is evident that either he was making things up and not keeping very good track of what was going on. As the revelations of his ...uh... insincerity increased, Carlos started coming up with new ...uh...New Age additions that let him give seminars for $600 a head.
Now, whether there is value to the concepts he presented is another issue. What is certain is that although he may have researched some subjects, most, if not all of what he wrote he made up. Did Mateus actually live and teach Carlos? Nobody to this day knows as Carlos refused to provide any evidence. It is certain, however, that "Don Juan's 'teachings' bore little resemblance to actual Yaqui Indian religious beliefs." The Hallucinogenic mushrooms that played such an important part in the early stories didn't grow in the Sonoran Desert, where Don Juan supposedly lived.
There are many more things to point to Carlos being a con man and Don Juan being a hoax (sorry if I have burst any belief systems).
You say that Damian "...covered the principles and precepts of sorcery..." We can't very well comment and have a discussion about that unless you share what he claims those principles and precepts are.
Why don't you share them, briefly, and then give your opinion and experience with using them? Then people here can comment.
02-22-2008, 07:45 PM
You say you have done The New Code. Maybe I believe you and maybe I don't as I'm thinking The New Code has been DISTORTED, DELETED AND GENERALIZED which contain such items as Lack of Referential Index, Unspecified Verbs, Nominalizations, Universal Qualifiers, Modal Operators, Cause>Effect, Mind Reading and Lost Performatives. The departure from regular NLP into Grinder's New Code is only a reorganization of "states", "conscious/unconscious relationships", "perceptual positions", "multiple descriptions" and lastly "perceptual filters". It does include some aspects of other cultures through music, song and dance. Milton Erickson also played a large part in The NLP New Code.
Now again, how can we know about the music, song or dance of a long gone group of people? These people did migrate south into South America and guess where I used to live? In Colombia. Now at that time way down deep in the jungle all the way down at the bottom of that country lived "Indians" who were head hunters (and shrinkers) and practiced cannibalism and wanted no contact with "white man".
My questions are: Have you officially studied NLP with a trainer in person so you know what you are writing about and did you study The NLP New Code with Dr. John Grinder so that you can carefully and completely integrate that which you believe to be Toltec into current NLP practices and more specifically what does NLP in any form have to do with sorcery? Eeeuuugh, nooowwww this is getting interesting?
I may have to rouse Mr. D who is soon to take NLP Trainer's Training with Dr. G. Pood :rolleyes:
02-22-2008, 08:08 PM
I forgot to mention the Toltecs were great warriors so again how does all of this equate?
02-23-2008, 01:59 AM
Pood: I still donīt get your point(s), I might be plain stupid or stuff gets distorted in translation (english isnīt my first language).
Hobgoblin didnīt say (at least in this thread) that he did the New Code, and further down youīre asking him if he did!?
Alltogether, youīre posts (in this thread) is simply not coherent to me, postulating/mindreading things from Hobīs post, that I canīt find reference for.
Having fun - and perhaps finding wisdom - in bringing old cultures ways of thinking, beliefs and more, and blending it with NLP isnīt a firsttimer, as Robert Dilts modeled some ancient guy called Jesus, for Christ sake. Bandler going round the world to model sages, with whatever cultural backgrounds.
Certain cultures of TODAY seems to be warrior-oriented, going to wars with hidden agendas, having their young ones blasting away schoolkids etc.
From my library I find titles such as: "The structure of MAGIC" - "MAGIC demystified" and so on, clearly NLP doesnīt equal sourcery....it equals MAGIC!!!
No need to apologise.
I said your post appeared to be a drive by spamming. I also said I was waiting to see if you were going to follow up or simply drop your stuff and move on. That would be an indication one way or another, wouldnt it?
I see now that you are here and have expanded on your first post. New information with which to help shape an opinion.
WEll IMO you have struck pay dirt, even if you havent realized it yet.
You have one of the worlds foremost recognized experts on magik in Don. You dont have to believe me, just check him out.
Coupled with a number of highly skilled, and experienced, NLPers.
How the mix will work in this context is anyones guess, but if you hang in there, it should be entertaining and informative.
Because this IS a very good list, we get a lot of slimes who want to take advantage of both our good nature, and good sense, and advertise here. Some are more skilled than others, but all are inconsiderate and are given short shift.
Your initial post looked like you might be shilling for this Damien fellow. So some responded as if that were the case. You might want to choose to overlook the initial tones of the first responses, because it did appear to be spam.
Now that more information has been forthcomming ...
As for expecting to recieve a warm welcome ...
You will find that people will read and THINK about what you write. They will respond as they judge appropriate.
This is a great place to be, learn, expound, and generally hang out, it is a terrible place to advance half baked, unreasoned gobbly gook, because the ideas presented are scrutinized by knowlegable people.
That is why this IS a good place.
But people expecting to be able to talk warm, fuzzy, new agey, codswallop, will not report that this is a warm friendly place to be.
02-23-2008, 09:33 AM
Hob, I respect anyone who finds something that interests them and has a willingness to follow up on it and actually do some work in order to better understand it. That in no way indicates that I am a sucker for any story that comes along, or that I will happily accept your take on a subject without exploring it myself, that would be plain stupid in my part.
Certainly there are those whom I know better, and am willing to accept what the say with less investigation, but even in their case I choose to do some and come to a conclusion based on my own study, so in your case for example, I might suggest that what you saw is easily explained by other than the explanation you offer, and I imagine you agree. Therefore I look forward to having you do an investigation and letting us in on what you consider to be a balanced judgement on this system. At the same time, you will find others here who have studied in other areas and can contribute their knowledge to yours in order to reach a balanced decission on the facts. I confess, anything that uses the word "new" causes me to feel uncomfortable in that I content that there is nothing new under the sun, just different perspectives or mixes of the same old same old....:)
02-23-2008, 11:37 AM
Hob's 1st paragraph and third paragraph. You are sooo correct. NLP is not sorcery -- it is, however; very magickal. Unfortunately Bandler or Grinder cannot model long gone civilizations unless they wish to as Ruiz did in the dream state. Don knocked out the supposed history. Dr. G used mostly Africa for the NLP New Code.
Terry, I would guess it's okay to use the word "new" associated with NLP since Dr. Grinder was one of the co-developers. NLP can always have something "new" added to it if it still uses the basic NLP framework which Dr. G did with The NLP New Code. Problems only arise when someone calls something NLP that has absolutely nothing to do with NLP in any way, shape or form.
Reiki did not come from Japan. Usui only redescovered it by studying ancient Sanskrit writings. It has been rumored that the Pleiades Sisters gave everyone on Earth Reiki and through time it was lost. This is not a belief I would care to adopt but it is a belief of many Reiki people. There are many, many forms of Reiki in the world and only ONE is from Japan not making one form of Reiki better than another. They are for different types of things.
RB has not included any esoteric studies in NLP. They were put in DHE but they do make great fodder for nested loops. :rolleyes:
02-23-2008, 05:36 PM
I haven't visited for about 24 hours, and I find loads of new replies. Lots goes on here in a short time, I appreciate all your comments and will do my best to answer questions.
I appreciate the useful feedback in your first couple of paragraphs.
I am aware of the questions and doubts that have always surrounded Castaneda, and whether the events he describes actually took place. However, for me, these questions remain only of academic interest when the texts are examined from a conceptual viewpoint. Are they useful? If Castaneda or the female sorcerers had invented everything they write, I find that even more remarkable. Where did information that is argued to be practically useful, come from? How do you invent that?
Principles and Precepts. I can list them in another post, discussing each one is going to make for a very long post this time, hopefully we'll come back to that.
02-23-2008, 06:00 PM
I am currently studying NLP with a trainer, in person, on a modular course. I have not taken a course on the New Code, but my current NLP course will include a New Code section.
The course which was the subject of the review was mainly a Toltec course, but from an NLP perspective. The Toltec texts were the subject of an NLP modelling project, which produced the course. Even to me, the similarities between Toltec Sorcery and the original New Code (Turtles All The Way Down) are unmissable. The trainer on the Toltec course is an NLP and New Code trainer also, he is experienced in the integration of Toltec and NLP. His approach sees New Code is the place where classic code NLP and sorcery meet.
02-23-2008, 06:07 PM
I appreciate your comments.
I think you have created a very good place for discussion here, I'm starting to realise I struck pay dirt. I'd like to stick around.
02-23-2008, 06:49 PM
OK, the Precepts and Principles, from my course notes.
1st Precept - Everything that surrounds us is an unfathomable mystery.
2nd Precept - We must endeavour to unravel this mystery knowing our efforts are futile.
3rd Precept - A warrior takes their rightful place, a mystery amongst mysteries.
1st Principle - Warriors choose their battleground.
2nd Principle - Warriors discard all that is unnecessary.
3rd Principle - A warrior applies full concentration to decide. For each battle is a battle for ones life.
4th Principle - A warrior relaxes, abandons themselves and fears nothing. Only then do the powers that guide, aid.
5th Principle - Faced with greater odds, a warrior retreats for a moment and does something else.
6th Principle - Warriors compress time. Even an instant is an eternity in the battle for ones life.
7th Principle - A warrior looks and acts ordinary.
Out of which arises the four prerequisites, 'moods', of Stalking.
Ruthlessness is not harshness. It primarily challenges self pity. A stalker selects the battleground, studies the surrounding area and discards all that is unnecessary. All the concentration of a warrior is applied to decide whether to enter battle, knowing that every battle could be their last. Once a decision has been made, not an instant is wasted and the warrior acts impeccably, aware that to waste even a second is an eternity that may decide whether they survive or not. The primary battleground of the stalker is the self.
Cunning is not cruelty, but the use of behaviours in a secretive and furtive way. As a result, a warrior fears nothing, abondons themseves, for they know that it is only then that the powers that guide will aid them.
Patience is not negligence. A warrior is patient yet active. When a stalker is faced with great odds that cannot be dealt with immediately, they retreat for a moment and occupy their time with something totally different. Patient, yet alert, they wait for the right moment to act.
Sweetness is not foolishness. A warrior is sweet but lethal. A stalker acquires the ability to mingle and look ordinary, working behind the scenes, shielding their true power. When the need arises, they transform into a lethal warrior capable of either avoiding or parrying conflict.
Sorry to disappoint you, Hob, but merely putting new clothes on an old doll doesn't make the doll new, it just gives the appearance of being new. That doesn't make the doll any less valuable, but it certainly doesn't add (or detract) to its uniqueness.
There's nothing in Casteņada (or Richard Bach, or Dan Millman, etc.) that hasn't been seen before. The new clothes simply make it approachable for a new audience, much as Elvis' version of "It's Now or Never" was simply a re-do of "O Solo Mio," and reached millions with its melody who would have never listened to the original.
02-23-2008, 09:06 PM
Hob, all I know about this subject is what you have written here, I do however know much about the mind and how it functions. If you dwell on anything regardless of if you want it or not, that is what becomes your goal. To me, the first two precepts are sufficient to turn me off..
Precept one suggests acceptance of "what is" without any effort to understand or investate the mysteries of life. If we all felt that way we would be living in the stone age still.
Precept two, is the most stupid of all, it suggests we investigate without hope of reaching a conclusion, what sort of person do you suppose would do that? The person who made such a statement knows nothing about people, or how the mind works.
Every following precept degenerates into suggestions of battle, but since the first precept leave one without hope, such battles would also be hopeless don't you think?
I am happy to become an onlooker, but certainly nothing you have written about would turn me on to investigate further, I apreciate hope, hope that we can improve on our lives daily and never give up due to the belief that it is hopeless to try......
02-24-2008, 01:22 PM
I'm not disappointed, I'm interested to hear all comments.
What exactly do you imply that I view as new? Castaneda's ideas are not new, he came from a long linage of sorcerers and the ideas were passed down. I agree Castaneda made it approachable and available for a new audience by writing the books.
No. Cateņada did not come from a "long linage [sic] of sorcerers." I had several letters with his relatives. He was an anthro student. He took old ideas from a variety of sources--many of which had nothing to do with the supposed teachings of the Yaqui--and put new dressing on it.
Nothing new. Little to do with the supposed don Juan Mateus. Little to do with the Yaqui. Valuable to many.
Have you ever heard the term, "cultural appropriation?"
02-24-2008, 04:35 PM
I feel the precepts are like the presuppositions in NLP. They are not true, neither are they untrue, just useful (or not).
Precepst 1 and 2, I believe both are useful. If we believe we know all there is to know about anything, we would stop investigating, sit back and stop learning anything new. By accepting "what is" ie. always more to learn, we progress from the stone age.
Precept 2, you wrote - 'we investigate without hope of reaching a conclusion'. If we reached a conclusion, we learn nothing new. What sort of person do I suppose would want to investigate without reaching a conclusion? I would hope all NLPers for a start.
Your paragraph about battles just contains a deletion.
An onlooker is fine, my aim was never to convince, just discuss.
02-24-2008, 04:57 PM
I realise Castaneda didn't biologically come from a long linage of sorcerers, he was from another culture, but the teachings from don Juan did, if we are to accept Castaneda's story. Whether he is truthful about don Juan as his sources is of little interest to me. He somehow came up with the ideas he presents. If Castaneda or one of the female sorcerers invented everything, to me that seems even more remarkable. When the ideas in his books are modelled, that also puts another new, hopefully useful, dressing on things.
You wrote 'He took old ideas from a variety of sources'. What are the other sources you believe his ideas came from?
Also, you wrote 'I had several letters with his relatives'. I'd be interested to know more about that.
Hob, there is NO evidence to support the existence of Mateus other than a dozen pages of field notes. No recordings. No photos. Nothing that even an amateur anthropologist would use.
His ideas come right from what has been called "The Perennial Philosophy" combined with a superficial understanding of Shamanic culture that could have easily been obtained during the many hours he spent at the UCLA library in the anthropology section.
The letters I exchanged were with the cousin of Castenada's wife, both of whom knew Castenada, for an article she submitted to a magazine I edited.
02-27-2008, 08:33 AM
No matter what, I truly hope that you fully enjoy the inspiration, you have from that course.
IMHO you were the one there, guess youīre the expert:cool:
I guess you know the phases of new (and not so new) ideas, first theyīll be ridiculed, then spiced with suspicion - only to be taken for granted in the end.
Of course, hatīll never happen in this place :D
(Who probably shouldnīt dabble with NLP and hypnosis, being a descendent of wild and murderous vikings)
02-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Mentalius, is this you? :)