I do not have a time line...

[Unregistered]

Hi,
Thanks for asking questions just like that.
I read that for most people there is a time line which goes from left to right, with the present in front of the person.
My memory of a certain event is linked to the place of that event. It goes that fast that I think words are intermediate. But certainly a remark triggers my memory.
For me it is very strange to have a time line.
I wonder, are there more like me? Must I make a time line to do something with the future? Or are there other methods?
If I plan I use sentences. However, it is very easy for me to use visual representations like a projectplanner.
I wonder what this man called Tad James would say about me. He is the originator of it all. I just can not imagine a time line...
I hope I will get some reaction from people with experience in time lines.
with friendly greetings,
P tèr

[Merlin]

Hello,

time *line* is simply a metaphor used for convinience.

>I read that for most people there is a time line which goes from left to right, with the present in front of the person.

Many people do. But that doesn't make it a requirement anymore than having brown eyes is a requirement just because most people do.

It's quite common to arange the 'time-line' in a line. Many people have a line going straight up, left-right, front-back, spiraling like a helix, and so on.
Many people use locations for time, almost like apartments in a great building.

>For me it is very strange to have a time line.

It is strange for many.

>I wonder, are there more like me?

Many, many who do not store time in a line fashion.

>Must I make a time line to do something with the future?

No.

>Or are there other methods?

Plenty.

>If I plan I use sentences. However, it is very easy for me to use visual representations like a projectplanner.

That's also quite common.

>I wonder what this man called Tad James would say about me.

Likely he would say any method that works for you is just fine.

>He is the originator of it all.

No, he isn't.
He just discovered s omething which he named time line therapy.

>I just can not imagine a time line...

is that a problem for you?
If it is, you can be helped.
If it's not a problem for you, then great!

Any more questions, just ask.

[Unregistered]

Hello,
Thanks Merlin for your answers.
Well, the point is how to become a magician. So, there is psychotherapy. And methods.
I need a method to create a new future. I can do that, now I traversed my phantasma: the primal phantasy we live in. I can change to other identifications. There are myriads.
I set out my goals. I found on the internet some audio of timeline from Tad James. I looked in an old book "Introducing NLP"(1990) - and it was all there.

But I have no timeline! You are right: is that a problem? In essence it is a secondary road. So, what can I use now instead of this timeline? Are there new good books? I mean, the book above from Joseph O'Connor and John Seymour is to my opinion still one of the best compact overviews of NLP. The title of my mail comes from a story in that book "The Prince and the Magician" on page 131. I always liked the story, but now I understand how deep it is. Death, indifferent to us, makes us all magicians. So, you, Merlin, do you know some trick?

thanks in advance,
P tèr

[Merlin]

Hello,

As for books:
The secret of creating your future.

For the timeline, fake it.

Tell your subconscious your intent and ask that a timeline be provided for you which goes (insert desired timeline type) for the purpose of this exersize and ask your time storage be returned to normal afterwards.

[Guess Who]

Here is a brief understanding of "time lines" from one of Jose Silva's books, I beleive "Ultramind". Jose Silva is founder of the "Silva Method" or some know it as "The Silva method of Mind Control". This is just another intresting concept.

The model here is good and brings good results. Their new "Ultramind Remote Viewing and Remote influencing" Home study course is also very good. It is sold by Nightengale -Connant..the people who sell so many personal development programs. I would like to see Tad James do a program for them.


Future to Left


Regarding the future being to the left when viewed from the spiritual dimension:

During his research, Mr. Silva used to age regress the children. He would take them back to an earlier time in their life, and even do "pre-natal" age regression... take them back to a time before they were born to see what kind of story they would tell him. He found that he could take them back hundreds of years, through many different "lifetimes." That does not necessarily prove "reincarnation," by the way... it only proves that they could detect information.

He began to notice that when he would move the children back in time, and forward in time, very rapidly, they would lean to one side or the other. For instance, he might get them to level (he used hypnosis back then) and ask them to go back 100 years, then 200 years, then 300 years, etc. When he did this, they would lean to the side. So he asked them why. They said that the pictures... the mental images... were flying by very rapidly... it was like they were sitting on a bus and it would accelerate so fast that it would cause their body to learn to the side. They said that the images of the past would come from the right, and the images of the future from the left.

Well naturally, being a curious scientist, Mr. Silva wanted a theory to explain this. It seemed to him that we were getting out of the physical dimension, and into the spiritual dimension. He decided that if the earth (representing the physical dimension) was spinning toward the east, then the future would be to the east. So he tried facing east while at his level, but that didn't work. He could not move around in time the way he wanted to. Here is the way he explains it:

Imagine you are looking at the earth. The north pole is to the top, the south pole to the bottom. The earth is turning towards the east... which means that it is turning to the right.

Now... let us do this... let us imagine that the physical dimension is a train, that is going from left to right (towards the east). Let me see if I can draw a picture of this train for you:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now, if you get off the train to the left side - the north side of the train - and you look to the "future" - that is, you look in the direction that the train is going, you will not see where the train is going. Let me draw a picture of a person who has gotten off the train and is looking in the direction that the train is going:

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In order to see the train, so that you can see where it is going, and where it has been, you have to turn 90 degrees and face south, towards the train:

V

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now if you look to the left, you can see where the train is going; if you look to the right, you can see where the train has been. I am talking about the subject ( V ) looking to his/her left or right). Something like this:

\ >towards the future

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

/ <towards the past

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Suppose you decide you want to get off the other side of the train, the side towards the south? You cannot get off that side, there are no doors over there.

I do not know how to draw a globe, in this email. If you will think about it... or if you will get a piece of paper and draw a globe, you can see how this works:

If the earth represents the physical dimension, and you exit the earth towards the north - go out over the north pole - into the spiritual dimension - and you turn and look back towards the earth, then the earth is turning towards your left, to the future. If you look to your right, you will see where it has been, the past.

[Unregistered]

Hello,
Thanks for your reaction.

I have no spiritual dimension. When I was young, I met religious people, people called "priests" - and I have very bad experience with them. Later, I tried other small communities. Or gurus. Or healers. Or so called peace bringers. I am glad I could quit with it.
But - that is me - I still had some friends who go and visit places where you can meet your ancestors. Or they tell you about flowers who can heal. etc.
I now consider most of it is bourgois. Nice people who can tell everyone they are spiritual. Spiritual=OUT.
I met thousands of children. Not one story of 100, 200 years ago. I met many people who claimed to know my future or the future of humanity. I think it is all simulation. In a sense they are all conceptual machines which simulate the future. The best we can simulate is that tomorrow the sun will rise. But going to Mars needs technology of a few hundred years experience and it still can go wrong. No good prediction there.

This morning I read Hegel again about space and time. He has good arguments why time is one dimensional. The example of the train is a bad one. Because it moves. Time itself does not move. The example of the train is also a good one. Because the train is seen as a unity. And as a unity it is quantity, therefore continuous. Time is continuous. But at the same time, as a unity it is also discrete. Time is also discrete. Time has both the possibility of an event (discrete) as of a duration (continuous).

I prefer to think about time as chunks. Like a bucket. It is filled with drops and at once there is overflow! The quality changes with one little drop. In this image there is continuity and sudden change.
Or time is like a melody - as the philosopher Husserl suggested. A melody does not move. Yet it moves. It has a structure. There is a past, what I hear now and a possible future - which I can imagine.

For the moment I prefer the idea of melody. I do not know what to do with it in connection with time lines. Maybe you will get an idea. Or tomorrow maybe I will. Maybe a poem is a better idea. That idea is my own.

You see, if - as Merlin suggested - I should ask my unconsciousness to have a time line for a short while, yet I should prepare something for this type of unconsciousness. Because - as far as I can see it - the behavior is first conscious and later automatic. So, following Merlin, I already ask the future something...

P tèr

[skip]

The dirty little secret is, "No one has a time line."

It is all made up.

It is what we call a metaphor for what is really happening, and no one knows what is really happening.

BUT as a metaphor, it is an excellent one, one that does describe, pretty accurately, what's going on. And one that can be used very effectively. Which is the measure of how closely the metaphor resembles reality.

So dont worry if you dont have a time line, just pretend, thats what everyone else is doing as well, some know it and others dont.

skip

[P tèr]

Hi,
thanks Skip for your answer. It took a while, but it was a trigger.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in the concept of the time line. Because the unconsciousness is repetive. In some theories it is just a machine, in other it is a storehouse of past experiences etc. but in all theories: the unconscious is repetive. The future is what is not in the now, certainly not in the past. It has its seeds in the now, but will they ever come true?
The flaw is that in the concept of the time line, there is no unconsciousness. Only as a check maybe, just like there are start conditions in a physical problem. But the unconsciousness plays a big role, we all know that. In that sense there is praxis: just accept the metaphor, but do hope you have a good practicioner.

The time line does not want to know about the unconsciousness. A new concept is needed. The dependence on the good practicioner should be diminished. Be it only that they should strive to be professionals. As such they should develop into new areas.

Does anyone know about new concepts in time lines?
P tèr

[Don]

Have you gone through training in time line therapy? If not, maybe the flaw is not in the concept of time lines, but in your understanding of the system?

[Merlin]

P tèr,

There is no flaw to be concerned about. It has worked millions of times. If it doesn't work for you, use something else.
No one metaphor is right for everyone.

[P tèr]

Hello Merlin,
Today I listened to Personal Enhancement CD 2 of Richard Bandler. He uses dream squares. For me that is the same as chunks (see my former mail). However, I can imagine everything, but has it a chance? Do I have the right capabilities? Bandler talks about going together of the conscious and unconscious. I was talking about that last time. How do I make a good communication between these two? Both are not reliable. But a third one, let us say the practicioner, he/she can judge independently.
There needs to be an Other. In the case of Freud, he did his own psychoanalysis. He used Breuer as his talking point. Breuer did not understand what Freud was talking about. So, he stayed at his place, whatever Freud talked about. And it was in this way Freud discovered psychoanalysis. I am not sure if this third one needs to be a practioner. For me that is an important question. Most practioners are full, or are far away, or not interested etc. I want a minimal timeline method.

Merlin, don´t bother about that it does not work for me yet. I want to form my opionion. And putting my thoughts on this board helps me. I could not discover any preconditions for timeline therapy. Also, what I read about this timeline: it is still to rigid. Where is the music? Where are the accords?
P tèr

[Don]

Hi, P tèr.

Many times when people come to change a habit they say they have done "everything" to change. People trying to stop smoking have often tried a number of times to quit. People who have tried to change their weight have been on numerous diets and have simply failed.

I try to explain that the problem is not with their conscious understanding, but rather that it is their unconscious which they need to deal with, and until the unconscious is ready to move to follow a desired behavior, they won't succeed. I further explain that with hypnosis I will help them obtain the tools they need to work effectively with their subconscious and change their behaviors.

Put in more general terms, the conscious aspect of change is simply a part of the total amount of knowledge and tools needed to change.

So is it not possible that there is far more to timeline therapy than you have discovered so far? Is it not possible that because you have not trained (at least you have not said so) in timeline therapy that the small amount you have read about it does not answer all of your conscious questions?

Is it not possible that by getting training and actually experiencing timeline therapy from someone certified in its practice you might discover that it totally works in spite of your current concious objections?

You are certainly correct that you haven't found the "music" in timeline therapy as yet. Is it not possible that to understand music you have to hear it rather than read about it?

In my experience, people "get it" (concerning just about anything) in one of two major ways--experience leading to understanding or understanding leading to acceptance of an experience. For example, when I was teaching computers at USC, the vast majority of students learned well from the text which simply said "do this." By experimenting with the instructions and receiving the experience, students received an intuitive experience of a process which led to an understanding of it. But a few actually refused to even try to do what was in the book until complex concepts were laboriously and repetitively explained so they could understand the ideas behind what they were doing first. Only after they had a concious understanding could they move to experiencing the process of the lesson.

It seems to me, from your description, that in this aspect you fall into the latter category. I should add that people from both categories or styles of learning could do very well, so it I am not implying that one is better than the other. They are just different styles of learning.

However, people who needed that latter style of learning did not learn well from books. They needed to be talked to repeatedly and extensively. They required more personal teaching than other students. This was clearly not because they were dumb, bad students, or couldn't do the work. In fact, once they got a conscious understanding they did very well. But because they learned best in a different fashion, they needed special attention.

Such attention, requiring much time and effort, can't take place in a book or on a forum such as this due to lack of space and time.

I have also taught music to many people. I don't know of anyone who has learned music from a book without hearing music first. From your posts--and only from them; I could be wrong in what I've been reading from you--it would seem that you're trying to find the music without going to where you can hear it. To hear it you need to go to a class on it. From your bright questions, I have no doubt that seeing it explained from the beginning and working with it yourself under the watchful eye of an instructor, you'll not only find and hear the music, but you'll be able to create the music yourself.

[P tèr]

Hi Don,
I have the impression you are argumenting on the man. Not on the subject.
You tell me "I am like..."
So, I will leave this forum. I do not like argumentum ad hominem. I got the message.
P tèr

[Don]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've never had anyone tell me that when I said, "From your bright questions, I have no doubt that seeing it explained from the beginning and working with it yourself under the watchful eye of an instructor, you'll not only find and hear the music, but you'll be able to create the music yourself," it was an ad hominem.

[Unregistered]

However, people who needed that latter style of learning did not learn well from books. They needed to be talked to repeatedly and extensively. They required more personal teaching than other students. This was clearly not because they were dumb, bad students, or couldn't do the work. In fact, once they got a conscious understanding they did very well. But because they learned best in a different fashion, they needed special attention.

Such attention, requiring much time and effort, can't take place in a book or on a forum such as this due to lack of space and time.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Argumentem ad hominem. But also unveiling the integrity of the NLP university.
Of course I expected answers like this.
How marvelous that this discussion will be on the backup.
I can point to it to anyone. Why would I? Over and out.
P tèr

[Merlin]

Hello P tèr,

>Today I listened to Personal Enhancement CD 2 of Richard Bandler.

P tèr, there is a problem with CDs.
CDs are designed to be one-size-fits-all.
That doesn't work well for shoes.
It also doesn't work well with 'Personal Enhancement'

>but has it a chance?

yes

>Do I have the right capabilities?

Yes

Does that guarantee it'll work for you? No.

>Merlin, don´t bother about that it does not work for me yet. I want to form my opionion...

Occasionally I somehow communicate poorly.
If I somehow communicated that time methods using a line must work for you, then I owe you an apology. I meant only to communicate that timelines have worked for many people.
I thought I had also said a different metaphor might be better for you and that any time storage method you choose is just fine so long as it's working for you.

>And putting my thoughts on this board helps me.

I encourage your thoughts.
If you don't want my comments/replies, I will happily butt out :)

[Don]

Again, I didn't know that saying that people learn in one of two basic ways was an ad hominem attack. I also didn't know that identifying the way a person learned is one of those two ways is an ad hominem attack.

I have been giving lectures, teaching classes, and leading workshops for over 20 years. Realizing that people learn in different ways, I can present information in ways that people can learn no matter which way they learn best. I'm afraid I'm a bit stupid on this because I always considered this to be good teaching, not some sort of ad hominem attack.

Perhaps, P tér, you're seeing an attack where none exists? Sometimes clients I've had start to act like there is an attack on them when they start to really change their behaviors. As I'm sure you know, this is a way for the subconscious to maintain the status quo rather than change in the way the client's conscious mind desires. Psychologists refer to this as "resistance." It's an interesting phenomenon, isn't it?

[Curiois]

P ter (sorry cant put the accent on this keyboard), I have yet to try timeline therapy but can relate to you.I can remember events,places,objects easely but my memeory fails when remembering when something hapened, as my mother sometimes says I didnt use to be like this when I was 5-11 or so, maybe though this is very subjective it could be that about that time I started taking an interest in physics and formed the opinion that time (in the normal sense) does'nt exist.Do you have similer memorys/problems?

Not to hijack you'r thread but most of the time I cant remember if something hapened last week or last year without specific references, ie having to rely on what the calender looked like to remember when my grandparents last visited, 3 days or 3 weeks ago.What do you recomend?