Light Trance work

[mysticwarrior]

"Light trance is the state where it is best for people to communicate with the Unconscious Mind and at the same time gaining Conscious/Unconscious Integration (CS/UCS integration means = the client is in an awake, alert trance)."


Hello friends.

I encountered this on the AMPAC website and was confused. I've been reading Dave Elman's great work, "Hypnotherapy" and from what I have read (the whole thing) it's best to go deep in trance to work with someone, especially when doing hypnoanalysis.

How is the above quote true or untrue and why?

Thanks,

MW
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[Merlin]

Just terminology/word usage.

Try reading my FAQ. It may help.

[Poodle]

Someone that actually read before posting! Thank you!!

Second WOW!! What a great price on pendulums. Using a pendulum does not by-pass the CF but they sure can come in handy for lots of things but again it takes training unless, of course, one is doing the Pendulum Induction.

Lastly, trance depth depends upon the hypnotist. Terry (our dearest and most beloved) works in light trance very successfully. I have for most things given up somnambulism and work in light trance. Some things require somnambulism.

I invite you to look at the Hypnosis link on my website (don't worry Don & Skip -- "the page" is down and being rewritten) for MY definition of hypnosis which is not too much different than what you have just posted.

Happy New Year!
Pood

[Terry]

When learning, or gaining experience, depth of trance is given excessive importance in order to encourage the newbee to practise, and gain confidence in themselves. When finally skilled sufficiently to feel relaxed about outcome, trance is given its proper context, ie, trust the client as much as you trust yourself, and they will enter into a trance that is proper for their needs at that time. A newbee can;t do this....
When giving group seminars, and allowing group experience of trance, I have achieved light trance in some, and deepest possible trance in others, all from that same induction given to the group. I remove pain in light trance because I know what to say, and that is perhaps even more important than depth to which the client goes except if using hypnosis to replace an anasthetic for an operation, and then I would be much more carefull of depth because I am not sufficiently conversant with the operating room proceedures that I have confidence enough to proceed as usual.....:eek:

[mysticwarrior]

When learning, or gaining experience, depth of trance is given excessive importance in order to encourage the newbee to practise, and gain confidence in themselves. When finally skilled sufficiently to feel relaxed about outcome, trance is given its proper context, ie, trust the client as much as you trust yourself, and they will enter into a trance that is proper for their needs at that time. A newbee can;t do this....
When giving group seminars, and allowing group experience of trance, I have achieved light trance in some, and deepest possible trance in others, all from that same induction given to the group. I remove pain in light trance because I know what to say, and that is perhaps even more important than depth to which the client goes except if using hypnosis to replace an anasthetic for an operation, and then I would be much more carefull of depth because I am not sufficiently conversant with the operating room proceedures that I have confidence enough to proceed as usual.....:eek:
From what I can tell from Dave Elman's techniques, one should be able to reach somnambulism within a minute with practice. How long does it take you to achieve light trance? I would think that if you can get a deep trance in the same amount of time as light trance why would you only stop at light trance?

If you tell the subject that anything that is done during this procedure will be pain free, then it will be. I wouldn't think you would need to conversant with operating room procedures. I wonder why you would have to be careful about the depth? If you help the patient achieve somnambulism then there shouldn't be a problem anyway.

[Poodle]

You don't have a clue yet do you? Glad you have an interest so go to a great training and your questions will be answered and you will do and experience the states yourself. May I note here that the owner of this Forum happens to teach the subject matter and covers a lot more territory than JUST Elman.

Be well,
Pood

[mysticwarrior]

You don't have a clue yet do you? Glad you have an interest so go to a great training and your questions will be answered and you will do and experience the states yourself. May I note here that the owner of this Forum happens to teach the subject matter and covers a lot more territory than JUST Elman.

Be well,
Pood
So, you throw out that I don't have a clue, yet decline to tell me what's wrong with my post? Hmmm...I was asking Terry specific questions about why he was doing something. I didn't think that was too much to ask. I'm not confused about the Elman method. I'm wondering about Terry's method and why he isn't able to do the things he wants to do. Because it is possible.

while I do think a lot of Elman, he's obviously not all there is to hypnosis. And his inductions certainly aren't the only ones to use. Erickson obviously is a great pioneer and his methods are equally valuable. Based on the clinical research and validation from his students, I believe Elman's method is not only scientifically verifiable, but useful for both hypnotist and client/patient.

I could care less about who is who and whose method is the supreme one. I'm more interested in results for the client. After all, that's what they are there for. They could care less about your theory or the site owners theories.

As always, amazed at your ego and cavalier support for your teacher.

MW

[Poodle]

For "my teacher"? Duhhh, which one???? If you are "thinking" I studied with the owner of this Forum, you are dead wrong. I do have the common decency and knowledge to know who is paying the freaking bills around here which is apparently more than you have figured out. It does not mean in the least that I may not study with APU in the future.

After your formal education in hypnosis and 40 very successful years at $500/session you will be entitled to ask Terry about his methodology. We have a very large objection to clients that state: Well, I tried hypnosis and it just didn't work for me.

[mysticwarrior]

For "my teacher"? Duhhh, which one???? If you are "thinking" I studied with the owner of this Forum, you are dead wrong. I do have the common decency and knowledge to know who is paying the freaking bills around here which is apparently more than you have figured out. It does not mean in the least that I may not study with APU in the future.

After your formal education in hypnosis and 40 very successful years at $500/session you will be entitled to ask Terry about his methodology. We have a very large objection to clients that state: Well, I tried hypnosis and it just didn't work for me.

Oh, I'm sure you've had many, many teachers. Kudos to you. I don't care who pays for the forum as long as I abide by rules.

So, not only can you speak for Terry you also believe that he is above reproach and so good and wealthy that he can't be asked a question? I didn't question his intelligence. I was asking a bona fide question that from one human being to another I thought he might answer. If he didn't want to answer that's fine.

You see, I have this thing called an open mind. I love knowledge and learning and having interaction with other open-minded human beings. I don't inflate my learning or knowledge. I'm not interested in building my ego and I'm also not interested in inflating other people's egos, no matter how large or small they may be....
MW

[Terry]

For "my teacher"? Duhhh, which one???? If you are "thinking" I studied with the owner of this Forum, you are dead wrong. I do have the common decency and knowledge to know who is paying the freaking bills around here which is apparently more than you have figured out. It does not mean in the least that I may not study with APU in the future.

After your formal education in hypnosis and 40 very successful years at $500/session you will be entitled to ask Terry about his methodology. We have a very large objection to clients that state: Well, I tried hypnosis and it just didn't work for me.

Having read the latest tirade against those of us who feel we have the right to refuse information, I have put MW on my ignore list. As for those who claim to have tried and failed, they didn;t try me did they? One poster, based on reading a book, said that hypnosis MUST be harmless because it is a consent condition, she also hasn't tried me either.:D

[Jack]

It does not matter in the slightest whether the trance is light or deep.

99% of hypnotherapeutic work can be done in any old trance, including hypnoanalysis.

Jack

[mysticwarrior]

It does not matter in the slightest whether the trance is light or deep.

99% of hypnotherapeutic work can be done in any old trance, including hypnoanalysis.

Jack
Thanks Jack. I just read Emile Coue's work on self-mastery and he said he moved from deep hypnosis to autosuggestion and achieved excellent results. So, I believe you are right and his findings seem to suggest that.

MW

[Jack]

During the phenomenon we call hypnosis a client will move up and down in depth of trance, often with only milliseconds between the transitions.

My opinion is that this happens as the subconscious performs what in NLP is called a transderivational search and looks for options. If those options are buried deeply in the archive then a deeper state of trance may be required to access them, if only briefly. There is little need for a therapist to induce deep states since the subconscious will decide upon the quality of the state required to gain a specific outcome, guided by the new information provided by the therapist.

New hypnotherapists would do well to concentrate upon the trance state required of them personally to explore the internal landscape of the 'mind' rather than the ego satisfying but ultimately (mostly) useless techniques of deep trance induction.

Jack

[skip]

Well played Jack.

skip

[mysticwarrior]

During the phenomenon we call hypnosis a client will move up and down in depth of trance, often with only milliseconds between the transitions.

My opinion is that this happens as the subconscious performs what in NLP is called a transderivational search and looks for options. If those options are buried deeply in the archive then a deeper state of trance may be required to access them, if only briefly. There is little need for a therapist to induce deep states since the subconscious will decide upon the quality of the state required to gain a specific outcome, guided by the new information provided by the therapist.

New hypnotherapists would do well to concentrate upon the trance state required of them personally to explore the internal landscape of the 'mind' rather than the ego satisfying but ultimately (mostly) useless techniques of deep trance induction.

Jack
Certainly people such as Elman advocated self-hypnosis on themselves and the methods they did for their clients/patients. (I know the attack may be coming, but...) I'm wondering (seriously) why you believe deep trance induction is ego-based and mostly useless. Isn't it one more tool in the toolbox instead of something to disregard altogether? Elman proposed deep induction for medical purposes. He's not the be-all end all authority, but certainly one of the great ones.

Feel free to disregard as the ramblings of a madman.

MW

[John B.]

... than the ego satisfying but ultimately (mostly) useless techniques of deep trance induction.

I believe it accurate to point out that such a view is not universally held by the hypnosis community. Kein and Banyan are but two well-known instructors and practicioners of the art that emphasize the goal of somnambulism.

Emphasis on trance depth was not the case in my own training, but nevertheless I induge in "ego gratification" whenever the opportunity presents itself.:D

[Jack]

Emphasis on trance depth was not the case in my own training, but nevertheless I induge in "ego gratification" whenever the opportunity presents itself.:D

Of course you do. You will learn as you mature.:)

Jack

[John B.]

Of course you do. You will learn as you mature.:)

Jack
I dunno Jack,

To the matter that you mention
I have given some attention,
And I think I am sufficiently decayed.

[skip]

MW,

Who said what is pretty much irrelevent. It is nice to have someone generally recognized as an authority agree with your beliefs, but it isnt essential.

You might want to consider when Elman taught, and who his target audience was.

Forgive me if I am off base, but you seem as if you are reasonably well read, without a lot of practical experience.

Ask yourself, "What are you (the hypnotherapast) there for?"

Is it to get someone to a specific trance state, irregardless of whether it is needed or not. (Certainly could be interpreted as ego driven)

Or

Is it to help the client resolve their issue with the minimum intervention necessary?

cheers,

skip

[Jack]

I'm wondering (seriously) why you believe deep trance induction is ego-based and mostly useless. Isn't it one more tool in the toolbox instead of something to disregard altogether? Elman proposed deep induction for medical purposes. He's not the be-all end all authority, but certainly one of the great ones.

Feel free to disregard as the ramblings of a madman.

MW

The question is serious and not rambling.

When an hypnotherapist first begins in practice it is exciting to produce deep trance phenomena in clients. It make it all real and creates a sense of power. The sense of power is not all bad because it helps with confidence, but it can become addictive and has no relevance to the welfare of the client or the solution to the problem.

For instance, I know of one well known hypnotherapist who always induces a what he believes to be a deep trance even for something a simple as treating as a phobia. He takes around 90% longer than it would take myself, or Skip, Don, Terry, Merlin, Pood et all to achieve the same end - namely the removal of the phobic response. I know of many more who have no idea of what level of trance their clients are in, and some who have no idea if their clients are in a trance state at all but go ahead anyway with hours of banality. The latter are called psychologists.;)

I have great respect for Dave Elman but he missed the point. Deep trance induction is fine but it is only relevant if the subconscious decides that it is necessary. Most good hypnotherapists can induce an hypnotic state in around 30 seconds or less; where it goes from there is mostly down to the requirements of the subconscious and the skill of the therapist. Pain can be eliminated or reduced in any depth of trance state.

Yes, deep trance states are a tool in the toolbox, but they are a little like the device used for removing stones from horses hooves - mostly useless, unless one comes across a horse with a stone in its hoof.

Jack

[Jack]

If you are a Brie
then I would agree
But if you are a Cheddar
you can only get much bedder.

Jack

[mysticwarrior]

MW,

Who said what is pretty much irrelevent. It is nice to have someone generally recognized as an authority agree with your beliefs, but it isnt essential.

Very true. I tend to go by their results. If it works and is repeatable and effective then it's worth doing.

You might want to consider when Elman taught, and who his target audience was.
Yes, medical professionals, MD's and DD's. He also used deep inductions for hypnoanalysis. As you say, it's not an absolute that the trance has to be deep as you and others have shown. It's one approach.

Forgive me if I am off base, but you seem as if you are reasonably well read, without a lot of practical experience.Of course, you are correct. I'm a beginner with a lot to learn. I have to start somewhere as we all do. I question others not as a way to prove whose method is better or who is right or wrong. My approach is to ask questions about why something works for one and not another. Is it repeatable? Is it beneficial? Is it ethical? If not, why isn't it? Right or wrong, that's my approach.

Ask yourself, "What are you (the hypnotherapast) there for?"

Is it to get someone to a specific trance state, irregardless of whether it is needed or not. (Certainly could be interpreted as ego driven)

Or

Is it to help the client resolve their issue with the minimum intervention necessary?

cheers,

skip
I can honestly say that my goal is to help others and myself. I actually accidentally stumbled upon this subject, experienced it and didn't know what it was. I found that when I helped others who were friends or acquaintances (as a friend - before hypnosis) and simply communicated to them positive ideas, along with removing their fears I saw them change. They would often go into trances, though I thought they were sleeping.

Remember the story of the boy who tied himself to a tree back in the Mezmer days? The boy was told the tree was magnetic and thought he could be helped by doing this. Someone found him like this, told him to untie himself, which he did. He had reached somnambulism without anyone's help. (reported in Elman's work, "Hypnotherapy").

I saw how people could be helped through nominalisations, suggestion and prayer. Although I didn't recognize it at the time as such. I had unknowingly been a part of healing. People heal themselves. I was and still am only a tool connecting the person to the healing source, no more, no less. I have too many stories to tell about why and how I ended up with choosing hypnotherapy as a career, most of them I wouldn't share here because they delve into the arena of metaphysics.

If there is a method (which there is) that is equally as effective as another which has been evidenced as being less invasive, then sign me up. My goal is healing, not guinea pigs. People deserve compassion, respect and dignity. Although I fail at times to behave this way, my heart is genuine.

MW

[mysticwarrior]

The question is serious and not rambling.

When an hypnotherapist first begins in practice it is exciting to produce deep trance phenomena in clients. It make it all real and creates a sense of power. The sense of power is not all bad because it helps with confidence, but it can become addictive and has no relevance to the welfare of the client or the solution to the problem.

I'm always in awe of the power of the human mind and potential. That's what I find exciting. I believe in human potential. When I see the mind healing itself, I sit back in amazement.

For instance, I know of one well known hypnotherapist who always induces a what he believes to be a deep trance even for something a simple as treating as a phobia. He takes around 90% longer than it would take myself, or Skip, Don, Terry, Merlin, Pood et all to achieve the same end - namely the removal of the phobic response. I know of many more who have no idea of what level of trance their clients are in, and some who have no idea if their clients are in a trance state at all but go ahead anyway with hours of banality. The latter are called psychologists.;)

I have great respect for Dave Elman but he missed the point. Deep trance induction is fine but it is only relevant if the subconscious decides that it is necessary. Most good hypnotherapists can induce an hypnotic state in around 30 seconds or less; where it goes from there is mostly down to the requirements of the subconscious and the skill of the therapist. Pain can be eliminated or reduced in any depth of trance state.

One story I got a kick out of was in Elman's book "Hypnotherapy" where the little girl of a doctor was taught simple hypnosis. She was only 3 yrs old I believe. She was taught eye lock closure and autosuggestion. It worked for this little girl very quickly whenever her skin condition came on. She demonstrated this in front of a room full of doctors who were equally amazed that she could do this at such a young age and so quickly.

Yes, deep trance states are a tool in the toolbox, but they are a little like the device used for removing stones from horses hooves - mostly useless, unless one comes across a horse with a stone in its hoof.

Jack
LOL. Thanks Jack. If it's not needed, then it's not needed. If it's needed then use it :D Of course.

MW

[Don]

If there is a method (which there is) that is equally as effective as another which has been evidenced as being less invasive, then sign me up. My goal is healing, not guinea pigs. People deserve compassion, respect and dignity. Although I fail at times to behave this way, my heart is genuine.

MW


Although, from your posts, I imagine you know this, I just wanted to post a little reminder to all who are reading this. IMO the method is not as important as the needs of the client and the ability to get the desired results. That means it's not the method by itself that is important, rather, it is the combination of the client's needs, the therapist's skills and the method that unites them for a common goal and common good. In that way people receive respect and dignity.

As I like to put it, hypnotherapy is client centered, not methodology centered.

[Don]

One story I got a kick out of was in Elman's book "Hypnotherapy" where the little girl of a doctor was taught simple hypnosis. She was only 3 yrs old I believe. She was taught eye lock closure and autosuggestion. It worked for this little girl very quickly whenever her skin condition came on. She demonstrated this in front of a room full of doctors who were equally amazed that she could do this at such a young age and so quickly.


Yep. Hypnosis is easy to learn and children are so familiar with the state that it's especially easy to teach them "suggestive therapeutics."

Sometimes, the pros here get on about the young'uns. It's not really the age, but for many younger people there is an impatience. For these particular young people there is no desire to study or practice, they simply want to "say the magic words" and "make people do things against their will, just like in the movies."

When the pros explain that's not how it's done or what it's all about, those particular people get quite upset. They have set up a "straw man" of what they think hypnosis is and get upset when they're told the straw man isn't real.

[eyeglazer]

Questions on technique and methodology are of course interesting, but I find that the true value of this forum is the attitudes and insights that come from the accumulated experience of the Pro's.

Such as;

-Trance depth is not important.
-The SC of the client will find it's own appropriate level.
-The "trance state" of the therapist is just as important as that of the client( They didn't teach that one in school!).

My appreciation to all of you for being here!

[Poodle]

Anyone can find it and know it just by reading a nice fun little book called "Training Trances" by Julie Silverthorne and husband. It's NLP based and Ericksonian but one can find out how to use what we call "uptime". The client goes into "downtime" which is inside while we become more acutely aware of the client and what is or is not going on with our client at all times and both use the SC mind.

There are other fun little inductions in that book like "That's Right". Another fun but expensive book is Bandler's Trance-formations. It has some nice inductions in it too that are also from a classroom type setting.

One of my favorite inductions is a shoestring with knots tied on it. Merlin says it's unprofessional but I like to have a little fun now and then. ;)

[skip]

"Merlin says it's unprofessional ..."

Mer, you take them out of your shoes first.

wink wink,

skip

[mysticwarrior]

I want to thank everyone for their contributions to this thread. I have learned a lot from the sharing and to me that's the whole point of this forum - to share and discuss ideas, practices, etc. as it usually is with any forum.

Though it was intended for eyeglazer I thank Poodle for the book recommendations on trances. I looked up the one from Jule Silverstone and there are many copies available at a relatively low price.

MW

[mindflip]

Hello mw.
I find that very few Hypnotists consider the personality of the subject.
I also have read Mr Elmans book(Hypnotherapy).I enjoyed it.

A belife that i strongly consider.. work out the personality type...some siute deep trance ..some might need other things to keep conscious mind occupied
others will go up and down and I may have to bring some out of somnambulismn.

If I can get an I.M.R or verbal answer and they are showing visual signs of trance thats good enough.

I would stongly reccomend Terrance Watts Warriors Settlers And Nomads by Crown House Publishing Limited. www.crownhouse.co.uk

Its a life changer........................................... .................................

[Merlin]

Hello.
Hypnosis and trance are really 2 different things.
Hypnosis is the bypassing of the Critical Judgement Faculty of the conscious mind.
That bypassing can occur at any trance level.
Therefore 'trance' level is meaningless. It's all a matter of whether the CF is bypassed.

[Merlin]

From what I can tell from Dave Elman's techniques, one should be able to reach somnambulism within a minute with practice. How long does it take you to achieve light trance? I would think that if you can get a deep trance in the same amount of time as light trance why would you only stop at light trance?.

Mr. Elman required us to achieve somnambulism in one minute or less to graduate his training.
But that was long ago, in a galaxy far, far away.
Today, one minute is an excruciatingly long time.