What is the Critical Factor anyway?

[Merlin]

Hello,

I decided to start this thread so that the current discussion between Skip and I on the Critical Factor might be easier to follow, rather than be buried deep inside another thread :)

My FAQ is probably a good starting point. I wouldn’t want to contradict my own FAQ ;)

“ The mind has 4 primary ‘filters’ which effect information coming from the senses.
1 filter deletes the sensory input. As vast as the capability of our mind is, there is just more
information coming in than we will ever need. Much of the information is deleted before it gets
into the mind.
1 filter distorts the information, based on our belief structure.
1 filter generalizes the information for easier processing.
1 filter compares the information with that which is already thought of as fact [critical
judgement], and blocks what is believed to be erroneous information.

Hypnosis is a bypassing of the 4th filter, the critical judgment filter, and then the establishment of
selective suggestibility.”

So, if I were to suggest to you that 1+1=5, then your critical factor would immediately step in and
protect you from that idea.
If (on the other hand) I were to suggest to you that the 4th planet orbiting the star Zeta 2 Reticuli
is about .947 astronomical units from its star, you might accept or reject the idea. But if you have
not previously learned such details, then your CF has no basis for judgement. Lacking previous
learning for the basis of judgement, your Critical Factor cannot become involved and other parts
of your conscious mind must decide whether to accept this statement as fact or reject this
statement.

Since the CF has no basis for judgement, it would not be bypassed just because the statement was
made. It simply would not be involved.
On the other hand, suggesting that 1+1=5 brings the CF into play because you have previously
learned that 1+1=2. Now the CF does not know what is right or what is wrong. It merely
compares the new suggestion with what it has previously learned, and either rejects the
suggestion as wrong, or allows further evaluation because it doesn’t know.

Hypnosis is a method of shutting down (bypassing) the CF’s response to information it would otherwise reject.

Since this definition is being put forward, I hope it becomes obvious why NLP techniques *need not* involve
the CF and why the CF is therefore not necessarily bypassed.
It might be, it might not be. Depending on whether there is a previous learning to compare with or not.

[TaffyE]

Merlin, in the other thread you wrote:-

As examples:
Sub-modality shifts need not bypass the CF
Parts-integration need not bypass the CF
Reframes need not bypass the CF
Compulsion blowouts need not bypass the CF
The 'swish' need not bypass the CF
The six (or 5 or 7 or) step reframe need not bypass the CF
Timeline work or timeline therapy need not bypass the CF
EFT,

I have deleted the other modalities because I don't know enough about them to make comment.
With your other examples, surely few (if any) people will pause to critically assess what they are being asked to do. They just do it (as Nike says), hence the CF is by passed.
If they follow the instructions, critical judgement has not been applied.

[Merlin]

Hi Taffy,

Whether the CF is involved or not is not dependant on whether you are carefully following along with the suggestions.

It doesn't matter if I just distract someone, or they are 'just following directions'. 1+1=5 is still rejected. If they are in a 'trace' such as watching TV or driving a car (often used examples) and I say to him/her 'from now on 1+1=5' the suggestion will still be rejected by the CF.

[TaffyE]

But we are not dealing with wrong information.
Critical judgement is about "analysing" what they are being asked to do - go into trance now or later, or relax your eyes to the extent that they won't open.
If they stopped and thought about that, they would be applying their CF.

Unfortunately I have to go now, until tomorrow then

[Merlin]

>But we are not dealing with wrong information.

I agree. That's why the CF *need not* be bypassed.
If there is no wrong information, it is not the CF which is interfering.

That does not mean other parts of the conscious mind will or won't be involved. I am referring specifically to the CF. I'm not referring to the conscious mind as a whole, nor am I referring to the fact that other parts of the conscious mind may or may not intervene.

[TaffyE]

Hi Merlin,

Does the CF only assess for erroneous information, as opposed to "is this possible" or "how do I do this" when "this" is something outside the individual's experience.

When they have never done it before, there can be no knowledge for comparison as to whether it is erroneous or not. And if they don't assess for possibility, then in my opinion, the CF has been by-passed/not activated.

My take on the CF is that it is that aspect of the individual which considers the "how why and wherefore", not just the accuracy of information.

I have a suspision that we have differing ideas on what the CF is.
__________________

[Merlin]

The CF only compares what has previously been learned.
That's why children can learn so quickly.
It may not be correct, but they learn it fast.

[parsa]

Merlin,
You say," Hypnosis is a method of shutting down (bypassing) the CF’s response to information it would otherwise reject."

On the other hand it seems all hypnotists believe that hypnosis can not make you do what you don't want to do.

Aren't these two contradicting each other? What is it that I'm missing?

[Merlin]

>On the other hand it seems all hypnotists believe that hypnosis can not make you do what you don't want to do.

*Most* hypnotists believe this. It is taught to them and they generally have no reason to question it.
It is *safe*. If you really cannot control anyone, then legally you aren't doing much beyond having a conversation.


>Aren't these two contradicting each other? What is it that I'm missing?

The CF is not the only mechanism within the mind to stop suggestions.

[skip]

Merlin,

Been thinking about the critical factor, and this question from another list brought forth this response.

See how this fits?


> Can presuppositions get to where you are able to
> insert thoughts into peoples minds.. Like make major
> impacts on the way they're thinking...

If you dont mind lets look into what you are trying to accomplish, and then lets try and address the question.

Somewhere in between the conscious mind (that which we are attending to consciously) and the unconscious mind (that which we are atending to consciously and that which we are not attending to consciously) a little something called the critical factor operates.

And the critical factor is a funny little something, because it sort of an unconscious watch dog. Some people might refer to it as a reality check, or a fact checker. To me, it seems more like a belief checker. Now the reason I said it is funny, is because most people dont believe the unconscious is capable of judgement, but this critical factor does judge, and mostly it does so outside of our conscious awareness. It is usually, but not always, only when something didnt pass, that it is noticed consciously.

So if I say "You can do this easily.", your critical factor is going to 'check your beliefs about your abilities, and your desire to do it, and either approve or negate what I said, and you might or might not be conaciously aware of it happening.

Hypnotists say that "Hypnosis is bypassing the critical factor and establishing selective thinking." AND hypnotists will say that without bypassing the critical factor, you cannot be successful with suggestion. This definition alone would suggest that a successful suggestion MUST HAVE bypassed the critical factor.

Lets take "You can do this easily." and see what happens. The critical factor gets applied to whether or not the 'this' can be done by you easily. Thats selective thinking. While the notion that 1. something CAN be done and 2 that you can do it., is liable to slip by.

Now, I would say that NLP is hypnosis to the extent that various things, such as presuppositions, do bypass the critical factor (slip un under conscious attention) while establishing selective thinking (giving the conscious something to occupy itsself with). There are respected hypnotists that both agrree and disagree with me on this.

So I can give you a presupposition to two, in conversation, "I wonder how much better you will feel, when you get up to leave?". with pretty sure confidence that one or more of them will not be noticed consciously. Notice there are more than four presuppositions in that sentence, only two of which I was consciously aware of when I made it up.

They may or may not be noticed unconsciously. NO, that isnt a valid statement, they WILL be noticed unconsciously, they may, or may not, bypass the critical factor. Do you percieve the distinction? (Now there is a good example, what is the most glaring presupposition in the last sentence, but only glaring after it is pointed out? What is the second most glaring?)

So for your presupposition to be effective, it must bypass the critical factor. That may, or may not, mean it must be outside of conscious awareness, but obviously, if outside, it definately has a better chance.

Bandler says, "Presuppositions and other things work, whether the person is aware of them or not."

I agree with more to follow.

Your example presupposition: "Don't continue falling in love with me too quickly!", is worded in such a way that it will almost inevetably come to conscious attention. This IMO increases the chances of the ritical factor being applied to it. It doesnt mean it wont pass it, it just IMO, subjects it to scrutiny.

In order for language to be understood, we must hear it, and then 'go inside' to make sense of what we have heard. This 'going inside' is called a transdiversonal search. As near as we can tell we actually take on the experience we associate with the sounds, to understand them. It is in this sense that I understand Bandler to be correct. No matter what is communicated, it does "go in", and the person does have the experience, even if very fleetingly.

It is only after this "making meaning out of it" has occurred that the critical factor can possibly be applied.So it already has to have had some effect before the critical factor can be applied. The critical factor can then negate or reverse it, but it has already had some effect.

With this in mind, to your question: " Can presuppositions get to where you are able to insert thoughts into peoples minds.. Like make major impacts on the way they're thinking..."

Yes most assuredly so.

skip

[Merlin]

>Been thinking about the critical factor, and this question from another list brought forth this response.

>See how this fits?

OK

>> Can presuppositions get to where you are able to
>> insert thoughts into peoples minds.. Like make major
>> impacts on the way they're thinking...

>If you dont mind lets look into what you are trying to accomplish, and then lets try and address the question.

>Somewhere in between the conscious mind (that which we are attending to consciously) and the unconscious mind (that which we are atending to consciously and that which we are not attending to consciously) a little something called the critical factor operates.

>And the critical factor is a funny little something, because it sort of an unconscious watch dog. Some people might refer to it as a reality check, or a fact checker. To me, it seems more like a belief checker.

Agreed :)

>Now the reason I said it is funny, is because most people dont believe the unconscious is capable of judgement, but this critical factor does judge, and mostly it does so outside of our conscious awareness. It is usually, but not always, only when something didnt pass, that it is noticed consciously.

>So if I say "You can do this easily.", your critical factor is going to 'check your beliefs about your abilities, and your desire to do it, and either approve or negate what I said, and you might or might not be conaciously aware of it happening.

>Hypnotists say that "Hypnosis is bypassing the critical factor and establishing selective thinking."

It's the US government's definition.
It's a convenient model.

>AND hypnotists will say that without bypassing the critical factor, you cannot be successful with suggestion.

Many hypnotists do.

>This definition alone would suggest that a successful suggestion MUST HAVE bypassed the critical factor.

Skip, this definition ONLY suggests that a successful *hypnotic* suggestion MUST HAVE bypassed the critical factor.
The definition defines *hypnosis*
It does not define successful suggestioin.


>Lets take "You can do this easily." and see what happens. The critical factor gets applied to
whether or not the 'this' can be done by you easily. Thats selective thinking. While the notion that
1. something CAN be done and 2 that you can do it., is liable to slip by.

Granted.
Suggestions can get by.
I have not said otherwise.

>Now, I would say that NLP is hypnosis to the extent that various things, such as presuppositions,
do bypass the critical factor (slip un under conscious attention) while establishing selective
thinking (giving the conscious something to occupy itsself with). There are respected hypnotists
that both agrree and disagree with me on this.

It would seem to me you are showing exactly why NLP is not hypnosis.
Since the above definition you provided above was defining *hypnosis* not *suggestion*.

>So I can give you a presupposition to two, in conversation, "I wonder how much better you will
feel, when you get up to leave?". with pretty sure confidence that one or more of them will not be
noticed consciously. Notice there are more than four presuppositions in that sentence, only two of
which I was consciously aware of when I made it up.

OK 4 presupps.
At a glance I notice 5, but that's not got anything to do with your point :)

>They may or may not be noticed unconsciously. NO, that isnt a valid statement, they WILL be noticed unconsciously, they may, or may not, bypass the critical factor. Do you percieve the distinction? (Now there is a good example, what is the most glaring presupposition in the last sentence, but only glaring after it is pointed out? What is the second most glaring?)

Skip, I agree.
Structuring presuppositions in this mannor gets suggestions into the subconscious.
I agree the critical factor will likely not interfere.
But this is precisely why NLP is not hypnosis.
You prove my point.

>So for your presupposition to be effective, it must bypass the critical factor.

Again I disagree.
The critical factor doesn't have the job of evaluating presuppositions.
That's why it is not *bypassed* as in hypnosis
It is just not there, as in the driving example I gave.

##
If I am driving from Paris to Berlin, and there is construction in the road, I might drive around the construction area, thus bypassing the construction.

If I am driving from New York to Chicago, the construction is not an issue. I'm not bypassing the construction because the construction just isn't an issue.
##

>That may, or may not, mean it must be outside of conscious awareness, but obviously, if outside, it definately has a better chance.

I agree. It needn't be outside of conscious awareness.
But that matches my point that unconscious installations (for skills) do not have to be outside of conscious awareness.
But that's a different thread :)

>Bandler says, "Presuppositions and other things work, whether the person is aware of them or not."
>I agree with more to follow.

I don't disagree with that statement.

>Your example presupposition: "Don't continue falling in love with me too quickly!", is worded in
such a way that it will almost inevetably come to conscious attention. This IMO increases the
chances of the critical factor being applied to it. It doesnt mean it wont pass it, it just IMO,
subjects it to scrutiny.

You lost me here.
I don't know where that presup came from.

>In order for language to be understood, we must hear it, and then 'go inside' to make sense of
what we have heard. This 'going inside' is called a transdiversonal search. As near as we can tell
we actually take on the experience we associate with the sounds, to understand them. It is in this
sense that I understand Bandler to be correct. No matter what is communicated, it does "go in",
and the person does have the experience, even if very fleetingly.

OK. But that supports my contention that NLP is not hypnosis.

>It is only after this "making meaning out of it" has occurred that the critical factor can possibly be
applied. So it already has to have had some effect before the critical factor can be applied. The
critical factor can then negate or reverse it, but it has already had some effect.

That's the beauty of NLP!

>With this in mind, to your question: " Can presuppositions get to where you are able to insert
thoughts into peoples minds.. Like make major impacts on the way they're thinking..."

>Yes most assuredly so.

I totally agree.
But the critical factor will not be an issue.

[Frog420]

sounds to me like my critical factor is the thing holding me back from expanding my mind countless times over, it can be bypassed, can it be turned off?

[Terry (existing)]

I think as you get older, you develop a fifth filter or something. Perhaps because the mind is alread filled with facts or something. Anyway the bit about the distance from one star to another was forgotten by me before I went to the next post, as being an unnescessary piece of information I could well do without. I notice this happening a lot lately.

[Merlin]

Frog,

1+1=34
The moon is made of cream cheese
The man next oor wants to rape you
His dog talked him out of it for now.

Without the CF, you would believe everything as fact. Right or wrong.
The CF is your protector.

It is convenient to shut if off when you want to tho (-:

[Neurotic1]

Hello

What a marvellous discussion. Does anybody think that if we were to be without critical factors, our reality would be a sort of disjointed mishmash of everyone elses and that we would never do anything or could we survive in the same manner without it? Would we be reduced to bacterial type existence or do even the smallest organisms have a critical factor?