Addicted to SEX

[Unregistered]

Hi,

I'am addicted to online pornography and masturbation, for more than 6 years. I really want to come out of this. I tried it my self, but, I can't let it go.


Can NLP help me? How?
Please give a practical way.

Thanks,
Make me free......

[Unregistered]

every behaviour has a place, become an escort or a pornstar.

[Frog420]

if it is a 'true' addiction then remove the cause, i.e phone up you ISP and have them disconnect you.

Chris.

[Don]

Hello, Guest.

As you've seen, everything you've consciously tried to do has failed. That's because our unconscious has such a strong hold on us.

Luckily, there are means to tell your unconscious what you want it to do. Go to an experienced NLP practitioner or certified clinical hypnotherapist. They can help.

Good luck!

[Unregistered]

Im also an addict and its great! :)

[skip]

How do you know that you are addicted?

For me addiction has some specific meanings, among which would be that you have lost jobs, friends, lovers, etc because you have chosen to indulge your 'addiction' in the face of risking their loss.

Is this true for you?

Or are you merely very fond of masterbation?

[Unregistered]

What specifically can't you let go of?

[Unregistered]

How do you know that you are addicted?

For me addiction has some specific meanings, among which would be that you have lost jobs, friends, lovers, etc because you have chosen to indulge your 'addiction' in the face of risking their loss.

Is this true for you?

Or are you merely very fond of masterbation?


Whenever I view porn, I say to myself "Only today - taday is the last day"
But, the next day my mind says, "I want it so badly, I'm gonna stop it tommorrow".

I know it's bad, and I know that I want to get out of it.
It feels like my unconcious mind is pushing me in to that side.

[skip]

OK, so would it be fair to say that you have developed a habit of something, of which you are fond, and that you are choosing to indulge in it more than you would prefer, rather than that you are addicted?

[Unregistered]

that is true. i don't like to admit it, but true.

[Terry (existing)]

My first question would be, "what are you trying to replace this habit with?" After all, nature abhors a vacuum, so you must fill the space you will leave by deserting this habit, with another more acceptable one. Terry

[Unregistered - Hope]

Hmmm, what about playing music?

I have a "digital keyboard" at home, and I like music. I want to practice it.

But, my desire for porn is greater than, desire for music.
I want to change it, but don't know how.

[Grover]

The question I've missed in the discussion to date is: for what reason do you want to quit the current behaviour? What do you want to achieve by stopping masturbation and viewing online porn? I read your postings that say "I know it's is bad", how do you know that so sure? Who told you and how true is that for YOU?

(pay no attention at the curtain....)

[Unregistered - Hope]

Because it eat's up my time, health and money.

Before it came it to my life,
I enjoyed working out at the gym. (which gave me physical health)
I enjoyed playing music. (which gave me mental peace)
*** If my family finds out this thing, It'll cost my life.

And, I realized that viewing porn is NOT the thing that keeps me addicted to this habbit. It's the PLEASURE that I get from masturbation.

[j0hnny#]

Sexual activity and particularly orgasm increase 'levels' of suggestibility. Do what you must.

[Grover]

I do not understand that another "hobby" means that you no longer enjoy your existing hobbies. Do you seriously mean that you no longer like to do workouts or play music?

OK so does this mean that you stopped doing workouts at the gym and stopped playing music? THEN I can magine your health is at stake. What does masturbation bring you (can you be more specific than PLEASURE)? What would it bring to you if you stopped doing it? Would it help more or less than re-starting your old habits of sports and music?

What about your family? What makes them so fierce against someone who likes to play with himself? Do they not love themselves, if they don't, who is the pity one? Let's face it. People as well as animals were created to love and become excited about possible sexual partners. If not, we would extinct.

Interesting discussion.....between the curtains....

[welshguymikey]

Whenever I view porn, I say to myself "Only today - taday is the last day"
But, the next day my mind says, "I want it so badly, I'm gonna stop it tommorrow".

I know it's bad, and I know that I want to get out of it.
It feels like my unconcious mind is pushing me in to that side.
hmm sounds so familiar, just had an idea tho, but dont have time to explain just now, try useing anchors, so when you feel you want to look at porn or masterbate, you can bring on a different feeling instead. if someone else can explain how to do this please do. if no one else does i will try to explain soon.

[Unregistered - Hope]

I still like to workout and play music.

Watching porn brings me some relief from stress and problems. I can forget problems for a while, when I am watching porn, and enjoy my self.
Maybe it's not a proper way to overcome of problems.

About family thing,
I don't belive that anyone will like to have a "sex driven lunatic" in their family.
Yes, animals attract for "POSSIBLE sexual PARTNERS"; but on pornography, you don't become a partner with them, they are pornstars and we are watching.

[skip]

Dear guest,

One of the things that we as NLPers, in a theraputic context, are trained to look for is "What is indicated by the way someone says something, by the languaging they use?"

For example, you say: "I don't belive that anyone will like to have a "sex driven lunatic" in their family."

Now already you and I have come to the conclusion that you arent necesarily addicted, you just like to masterbate, well who doesnt? And porn facilitites your fantasies.

NOW you are stating the complex equivelent that masterbation="sex driven lunitic".

Well as one masterbater to another, I am not a sex driven lunitic, neither are you.

I think it would be benificial to you, to realize, that most of the things you state, as concern, is only a problem in your own mind. Id be willing to bet than NO ONE in your family believes someone who masterbates, while fantasizing with porn, is a sex driven lunitic.

You are taking something that is natural and normal, and maybe you are indulging yourself a bit more than is useful. But you have blown it out of proportion. You are creating the problem, and it isnt because you are getting a grip on yourself too often.

It is your perception of what is natural and normal and what is excessive, that seems out of whack.

Now, you can either come to a more proportional understanding on your own, or you can get assistance from some professional. BUT recognize this obesssive compulsive behavior is just one of many you have, and that includes the obsessive compulsive way you are percieving your masterbation.

Look for some assistance for OCD and get a girlfriend and the masterbation 'issue' will "take care of itsself."

skip

[Indy]

Another thought- if it is addiction, there is help. There are 12 step programs for people who feel they have a sex addiction. I have heard people describe being so addicted to internet porn they didn't sleep for 2 days! Only you can know if you're life is being affected in a way that makes you uncomfortable. There are groups with various names- SA, SCA SAA. Different groups have different definitions of "sobriety". If you're interested in hearing what they have to say, your phone book should have numbers you can call. It's all anonymous and free. Good luck.

[Don]

Unfortunately, 12-step programs are not very successful. If you really, really, want to change something, and you got to a 12-step program, you will change. This has about the same success rate as people who really, really want to change and do not go to 12-step programs.

[wilkinswong]

Pray to the Lord and let him to cure your habit.


Wilkins
Registerd Social Worker & Hynotherapist

[Calvin Iwema]

Often addiction is based on shame.

A practical way could be this: You find out what you are escaping from with your sex stuff, and then build the skills and feelings about yourself to live life without needing to escape to "be free". My guess is that the challenge you have isn't really about the sex, but about the feeling you get before you escape. Is this accurate?

[bleachq]

i dont think that this is addiction. I don`t think its wrong to masterbate whenever your body asks for it even if its too often. Just follow your feeling. If you feel you have to do it, so let it be. Just don`t think much about the effects.

[Don]

Hi bleachq.

There is an area of the internet called the usenet where there are something like 75,000 newsgroups. These are like electronic bulletin boards where anyone can post just about anything. It is fun, wild, and anarchic.

Each newsgroup is dedicated to a topic. Often a person will ask a question on a topic, only to be answered in a way you have answered: I don't think you have a problem.

Hypnotherapy is based on a different concept. It is client centered. What you or I don't think of as a problem, a client might consider a terrible person flaw. It is that aspect which must be dealt with.

If you hated the way you looked, and I told you "I don't think your looks are a problem, just don't think much about it," I don't think that would be very helpful to you. To be helpful I would have to deal with your concerns, not with my feeling that you're just fine.

If our guest believes there is a problem, there is a problem. Respectfully, "don't do that" doesn't resolve a problem. If anything it tells a client that their feelings and concepts are not of value. I would respectfully disagree.

Unfortunately, fully dealing with this problem can't be done on with a few lines on a website's forum. Our guest needs to go to an advisor.

[Unregistered]

whats bad dude the porn or the fact that you look cos come on we all see bad porn now and again. on the other hand (no pun intended) masturbation is the devil making work for idle hands. your not addicted mate get on this you like porn we all like porn just keep it to the right time and place if your sick we all are and thats a genealisation i dont make lightly

[Unregistered]

I can’t believe that we're sitting here talking about pulling our wire. Bro! How many times a day are you punching the clock? If you know it's a problem now then just stop. When you feel yourself going into "Time to spank the monkey" strategy, break that state. Do something out of the ordinary to stop the pattern then do something else to replace that old undesired habit. Keep up the pattern interrupt and eventually you will forget about it all together. 1st things 1st click off the porn. Every time a porn window opens, close it! You may even have to change your e mail address so you’re not to get any sort of elicitation from past porn ventures. Start there and the rest will be easy. It's easy to allow oneself to get caught up in porn these days. However, only you can stop it. If you’re not ready to stop you won’t. I think when you do conquer this old habit now you will realize how easy it is to create the life you really desire.

Passion4Fun
Master Prac

[Shlomo_NLP]

Hallo, guest.

Contact an NLP practitioner and ask him to run you through the Swish Pattern. You don't have to tell him the content of your issue (i.e. addiction to online porn). Only that you want to run a Swish pattern on a behavior.

Go do that, and if it doesn't help you, contact us here again. There are plenty of other solutions.

By the way, how many hours do you "invest" in your habit each week? 6 years... how many hours through the whole six years have you spent on it?

[Unregistered]

I have had this problem for 20 years..since i was 14. So far it has cost me 1 marriage and two bussinesses. It is usally 1-2 hours a day. On bad days or weeks it is 6 hours to almost 10 hours a day. It is becoming a huge factor in daily life. I just hired an employee so that there would be someone in my shop all day so I would'nt be able to surf the net looking for the perfect pics or video. It has only been two days and I am now already sneaking quick looks at my favorite websites then quickly shutting it off. Lately I have also started looking at escort websites and wanting to go to massage parlors to have help doing it.. hoping to get pleasure back out of it. Having a girlfriend/wife does'nt help as I would get laid 3-5 times a week and still masterbate 3-5 times a day..Yes masterbation is real addiction. I know that most of you are defending it so as to feel better about doing it.. There is nothing wrong with 10 minutes a day or maybe 20. But to stop working and do it for hours, losing money and time with your family to do it and to know it affecting your life and not be able to curb it or stop is an addiction..

You are not alone..
Be happy... get help.. I am looking for it to. I wish I had answers for both of us.

[Shlomo_NLP]

I promised to deliver and I hope I do... this is a script I used with the only client I had who suffered from addiction to porn. I worked on it later on to improve it and added some information. Try it out and let me know how it worked out for you, I'll appreciate any feedback:

NLP Pattern modified - addiction to porn removal (http://www.nlpweekly.com/index.php?p=83)


stay safe and healthy,

Shlomo

[Unregistered]

NLP doesn't work for something like this, it is meant for communication skills not therapy.

Your addicted to watching porn and masterbating is a very common problem and going to see a nlp prac. will not help at all.

Two options:

#1 : Will Power

#2 : Go see qualified hypnotherapist who can help.

Or, you could try getting a self hypnosis cd created expessially for this problem. Hey good idea to sell these, huge Niche...HINT...

Anyway bro, Good News is it's easy to change once you make up your mind.

[skip]

NLP is excellent for something like this.

As is hypnotherapy.

Compulsive behavior can be pretty easily modified by someone competent on either discipline.

[rodimus]

Use the SWISH PATTERN properly.

First, identify what 'value/state' does masturbatn give you? DOes it give you state of intimacy, of connection(when you are imagining), or just pleasure. Which is most important to you?

Say if it is pleasure (or ability to cope with stress or depression), then write down many other healthy ways to replace the habit. Eg, going for a run? thinking about some goals? listening to music? (think of something that gives you a state change).
Those are your PATTERN INTERRUPT. Whenever you start to feel like you want to view some porn or masturbt, replace it with the other better activity.

TO DO THE SWISH:
The outcome picture see yourself confident, totally self-control, happy, etc.
The trigger picture, identify when do you mostly start to do the habit? (when you are alone, or bored, or stressed?)
Then take each trigger picture and swish with the new outcome pic.

[Unregistered 444]

Hi. Probably the original poster has moved on, but maybe someone else is here with the same problem. Sex addiction is a real addiction and can destroy a person's life. If you have this problem, you know what I'm talking about. Please consider a 12-step program. Everyone I know (at least a dozen) who had this problem and did 12-step experienced profound changes in their lives. It's not just about cessation of a bad habit, it's about all the positive things that happen, all the insights gained, all the relationships healed. It's about becoming a whole person again.

Twelve-step programs work, especially for those who have hit "rock bottom" and who are motivated to change. Hypnosis may have benefits, but where are the studies to prove it? Is it dependent on finding a competent theapist? Is it a temporary fix? 12-step for sex addiction is still around because it works.

With no disrespect intended, there seems to be a great deal of people offering advice on the subject who have zero experience with sex addiction or with living with an addict. "Find a girlfriend" is a good example, as is "disconnect your ISP." It's like telling a junkie to take up chewing gum instead. I have had a relationship teetering on the brink of destruction become healthy again because my partner chose to attend a 12-step program after his career was completely destroyed. He had gone through years of "just trying to stop", of prayer, to no avail. Prayer is part of his program now, but it's just one component in a whole list of coping skills people learn through a program. He is on his 5th year of sobriety and has a full and fulfilling life again.

If you are reading this and are tired of not having your life anymore, look up SCA, SAA or SA on the web. It's the best thing you can do for yourself!

[Don]

Actually, guest, there is no evidence supporting the claim that 12-step programs work any better than no programs at all. According to internal documents, the original 12-step program, A.A., has a success rate of only 5%--less over long term. This is the same as you would find among people who simply determine for themselves that they're going to stop drinking.

Nobody has to drink alcohol. Many people spend their entire lives without it. It is not a necessity. On the other hand, sex has many positives for health and well-being. Recent studies show that sexual activity among men helps prevent prostate cancer.

So-called "sex addiction" merely means that a person likes sexual activity. There is no indication that lack of sexual activity produces any chemicals in the body which result in a physical addiction and a negative reaction to withdrawal of sexual activity.

Your comment that "prayer is part of his program now," gives a true indication of the nature of 12-step programs. The original purpose, designed by some fundamentalist Christians, was not to eliminate addictions, but to change them from their attachment toward one thing to another, a sort of semi-Christianity which, they hoped, would eventually result in a full conversion. Your anecdotal evidence of one person is not scientific research, it is a personal testimony at a prayer meeting. Instead of saying "Amen," they simply say, "Hi, Bill."

The first step of the 12 steps, IMO, is the most insidious. By insisting that we are powerless they are insuring that most members will never be able to change their behavior to one they prefer. This attitude of powerlessness--a Christian thological point--has helped to insure that we have a society of eternal victims thinking that they can never get better.

I have no problem with people who want to preach their religion, as long as they're not bothering me. I do resent disguised attempts at conversion.

[EC]

My Two cents,

At first Don made excellent points that one might benefit from considering. However, as as he continued, one might think that he discredited any validity in his post by degeneration to bashing religion, and turning away from what works or doesn't, to reducing the post to a personal preference.

Hopefully the following will get this back on track for the benefit of those that may need it.

One might consider that the 12 step programs are sometimes an appropriate intervention initially, as they do provide a supportive arm to help one stabilize temporarily.

As a long term endeavor however, 12 step has a high failure rate because they do in fact "take away your power" and that, is failure at the outset for the most part. This element of any treatment program is assured failure, whether the the program involves religion or not.

Each individual can overcome whatever issue they desire through appropriate intevention. Hypnosis and NLP have a very high success rate because they do just the opposite of removing power, they help you use your power in a more positive manner.

EC

[Don]

Hmm. I'm surprised you think that stating facts is "religion bashing." But the bottom line remains that the 12-steps are an attempt to convert people into a type of pseudo-Christianity, it presents a philosophy/theology of people being powerless victims, and it's not very successful.

I've seen no evidence that AA is a better intervention modality than having several friends help you.

[Robert Holzhauser]

As with all things - Wisdom is useful when taking the 12 step approach.

The thing about powerlessness that is often not understood well outside of the 12 step community is that it is really about getting leverage. Also, it is a great pace for addicts...because that is what addiction feel like...that they are powerless to NOT do the thing they are addicted to... In reality - of course they have a other choices...however, like our friend with the sex addiction...they feel unable to do anything else. I don't mean to be second grade about this...but that is what the powerless thing is referring to...that subjectively it feels like there is no choice. I have seen 12 steppers go way over board on that point.. It is simply an entrace to the case that is simultaneously in NLP terms a pace and a leverage move.

Long term the intention of 12 step programs is to replace addiction with spirituality. Although more than half of 12 steppers (rough guess) use Christ as their higher power. All that is specified in a 12 step program is some sort of higher power...i have seen people use water, the 12 step group they are attending, and energy as higher powers. It doesn't have to be fundamentalist anything.

The most successful NLP interventions do that as well.

Addiction is an Identity level issue, per Robert Dilts. According to the Dilts paradigm it therefore takes an Identity level or spiritual level intervention to truly change it.

John Grinders New Code addresses the same thing that makes the 12 steps effective....getting out of the conscious mind and trusting the unconscoius.

Here is an adapted 12 step program from a hypnosis point of view - using the unconcsious mind as the higher power.

1. Get congruent agreement from the client to change. including them to admit they have a problem, and build motivation to change thorugh questions about consequences. Use the last straw threshold pattern to get the client to congruently go "NEVER AGAIN!!"
2. Discuss the unconcsious mind, how it works and controls everything so that the client sees that the unconscous - used as an ally can cure them.
3.. Help the client to establish a communication channel with their unconscious mind...whether pendulum, finger signals or other signal system. and teach them how to use self hypnosis.
4. have the client make a list of all the things in their life that they need to change to --- including all they ways they are not being who they want to be...for instance...procrastination...defensiveness....fear ful....resentful
5. Take a detailed personal history for each of these aka tad james...also get a complete list of times and places of all the behaviors they did that they think they shouldn't have.
5a - using change history, v-k dissacation, "tape editing", reimprinting, EFT, timeline therapy, EMDR, etc. change each of these memories until the un resourceful memories are no longer accessible.
6. Help the client sort out any incongruencies about changing these things through parts integration, and reframing, and values and outcome elicitation
7. have the client make a direct request to their unconcsoius mind to change these things...6 step reframing is one possibility...any format that involves or is adapted to involve unconsious signals is fine.
8. Have the person make a list of everyone they have had a negative impact on through the addictive behavior or through the other behavior patterns they are changing.
8a inside of the client - clean up how they feel toward each person. They
9 coach the client do whatever it takes to make up the damage they did and reestablish rapport with those people ----
ECOLOGY is the key here...The point of this step is to get the client to start doing things that are of service...this is a way changing the meta-program of self attention sort to others...this is a key structural piece of how addictions work (IMHO)
9a this should include making up to themselves first, and they unconscious mind.
10. work with the client to continue these steps.
11.. have them use meditation, self hypnosis, and direct communication to their unconscious mind daily.
12. Encourage the client to find ways to be of service to others, and to continue on a path of personal development and contribution. Help the client to establish behaviors in alignment with this, and work toward shaping their self concept as being a person of service, constant improvement in every of their life. Set goals for every area of life. develop a compelling future.

All the very best,

Robert

[PUA]

Get fit and go out and pull some ladies.

http://www.jbspencer.com/djb/

[PUA]

Apologies if my last post sounded flippant.

I would seriously recommend doing regular exercise and to get involved in a sport that you enjoy. That way you can use your energy more constructively and improve your life by getting fitter, healthier and more confident.

I had a somewhat similar addiction. Since then I've gotten into Tai Chi, Kung Fu, swimming and surfing ...haven't looked back since.

I'm sure some NLP may well be able to help you, but you are able to help yourself. Good luck, stay positive and just do it!

[Terry (existing)]

Hmm. I'm surprised you think that stating facts is "religion bashing." But the bottom line remains that the 12-steps are an attempt to convert people into a type of pseudo-Christianity, it presents a philosophy/theology of people being powerless victims, and it's not very successful.
I've seen no evidence that AA is a better intervention modality than having several friends help you. But Don, that is what AA is all about, except that the friends you mention are using a program that all ascribe to, so it works more effectively. Now we have gone this route before, and I assume from your posts that you have had some bad experiences with AA or other twelve step programs, but when you realise that this one program for alcoholics has been copied many times to serve other groups, it would seem that you are out of step with the majority who see it as a means of success for a large number of addicts. Now I agree it won't work for all, but just attend one of their meetings, and you will see a comeraderie that is hard to find anywere else. As for dependance on God, what is wrong with that? He and I are close friends, and talk all the time. Fact is, he helps me in so many ways, the first being that he gave me life, and a fine mind to use for good. Can't beat that.......Funny thing, he gave you and the rest of our readers the same, and each must use it as we will for good or for evil whether you believe he exists or not (EG). Any offer for a replacement to the bible?

[Terry (existing)]

Well said Robert, I imagine you have had first hand experience of the program as have I in the past. Not as an alcoholic, but as a friend who tried successfully to offer extra help to those willing to help themselves. I have great admiration for anyone who tried to do it for themselves but recognises they need help. Such are often excellent subject for hypnosis, and react well to recovery with the aid of a skilled practitioner. As you said, higher power can be their own subconcious just as much as a dependance on God, and in fact is much easier for those who have no such belief initially.......

[Don]

But Don, that is what AA is all about, except that the friends you mention are using a program that all ascribe to, so it works more effectively. Now we have gone this route before, and I assume from your posts that you have had some bad experiences with AA or other twelve step programs, but when you realise that this one program for alcoholics has been copied many times to serve other groups, it would seem that you are out of step with the majority who see it as a means of success for a large number of addicts. Now I agree it won't work for all, but just attend one of their meetings, and you will see a comeraderie that is hard to find anywere else. As for dependance on God, what is wrong with that? He and I are close friends, and talk all the time. Fact is, he helps me in so many ways, the first being that he gave me life, and a fine mind to use for good. Can't beat that.......Funny thing, he gave you and the rest of our readers the same, and each must use it as we will for good or for evil whether you believe he exists or not (EG). Any offer for a replacement to the bible?

Respectfully, Terry, there is no evidence that AA is any more successful than having a few caring friends talk with you or even trying to stop on your own. AA's own internal documents show their success rate at only 4%, the same as people who try to stop on their own.

I've had NO bad experiences with AA. My only negative experience is that at the meetings I was invited to by friends who consider themselves alcoholic, is the amazing amount of smoking that goes on. My disagreement is with the basic paradigm: YOU ARE POWERLESS. As a hypnotherapist my paradigm is that YOU ARE POWERFUL, but don't have the tools and knowledge to use that power.

There is NO evidence whatsoever indicating that any 12-step program has achieved any sort of great, long-term success. There is plenty of evidence to show that their publicity implies otherwise and theirpervasive indoctrination of others makes this same implication.

There is nothing wrong with comraderie! I'm all in favor of it. I think there should be more of it. So if people want to get together and say "We're all alcoholics, let's get together and talk," I say fine. But it is not a way to cure alcoholism and instead turns people into eternal victims ("one drink's too many and 1000 drinks aren't enough").

There's nothing wrong with a dependance on God--IF that is what someone wants. Turning people into proto-Christians under the guise of a successful alcohol treatment is my objection.

[skip]

Don,

I too disagree with the idea that we are powerless, and need ...

AND I am against prostelitizing under the guise of a cure, no matter what the prostelizing is for.

BUT

I cant help but wonder how in the context of AA or any other 12 step program, this fits hand and glove with the concept of entering into the persons model of the world.

By the time anyone seeks help they have had to acknoweledge that they cannot do it themselves. And for addicts it may be that their mindset NEEDS something larger than their problem to be on their "side".

Now that does seem to be the model.

Given their results I wonder if the model isnt partially responsible for that.

[EC]

Skip,

Exactly.

The 12 step is a starting point for the majority of people, simply becasue it is the widest known and that is a good thing because;

For someone to get help with a problem, they must first reach a point that they "want help", they must "bottom out", with no place to turn. For most, this results in a trip to the local AA where their initial finding "I can't do this alone" is reinforced. At least they now are operating in the "I need help with this mode". Now, success might be 3%, it might be 93%, it's actually quite difficult to measure, because: Some stay in the program and even though it is a dependant approach, it works for them and they perceive their problem as "under control", whether that is a perceived fix by us hynotist or not. Others don't like the dependancy issue and leave the program. Some of those just settle for alcoholism, but how many others continue to seek help and change thru other approach's like hypnosis. We don't really know, but we do know that AA was the starting point for more than many and it did a good job of reinforcing the "I need help programming".

Until there are as many hypnotist as there are AA groups, the local 12 step appears to offer the best starting point, the best "launching pad" to change.

EC

[Don]

Hi Skip and EC.

You are both correct--a person definitely feels powerless and that they've hit the bottom when they end up at AA.

Where I object is that rather than telling people, "yes, you feel powerless to overcome this behavior, but we will give you the tools so you can rediscover your own power," they tell people "you are powerless now and forever."

How many clients do you have that you tell "you are powerless now and forever?" The number of people I tell that to I could count on one hand--if all my fingers were cut off! :)

EC, it's not difficult to determine AA's success. Their own inner documents show it to be under 5%. Here is just one study:
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chapter7.htm
" Using the figure of five years’ sobriety as the criterion of success, one arrives at an AA success rate of approximately 2.6% to 3.5% (in comparison with the total number of “alcoholics” in the U.S. and Canada). And the success rate is lower than that if one defines “success” as AA does—as lifelong abstinence."

Skip, I certainly agree that with the constant barrage of publicity saying that AA is the way off alcohol, that many people with behavior they don't like concerning alcohol have a mindset that they need something more. Or perhaps it's just an internal mindset. Frankly, I would be inclined to think that this may be an excellent way to get people to stop a behavior for a short time. Evidence shows it doesn't work for anything more than a short time--perhaps it's that AA should only be considered a short-term 1st step and the next step, the rebuilding of personal power, personal responsibility, personal pride, etc., and the sense that, in fact, they have more power and inner strength than any "call of alcohol" should be done.

Unfortunately, the AA model is to turn people who exhibit addictive behavior to alcohol into people who exhibit addictive behavior to (proto-) Christianity and not to make people powerful individuals. Until the goal changes, the success rate will stay low.

So EC, you may be right--AA may be the best "launching pad" to change. Unfortunately, the AA model seems to want to keep people on that launching pad instead of soaring to the stars.

Perhaps the ultimate 12-step group would be a 12-step group for people addicted to 12-step groups?

[Russ]

My mother was in AA and NA for rock cocaine and methamphetamine.

The programs said she was powerless and needed to turn herself over to a higher power.

She started to read the bible and her feelings of guilt got even worse, fueling her addiction more.

She started to feel like a terrible sinner and felt unworthy of God or anyone else.

She was also met 100 other addicts (contacts) who were forced to attend by court order. They wanted to "get it over with" and get another fix.

[EC]

>> So EC, you may be right--AA may be the best "launching pad" to change. Unfortunately, the AA model seems to want to keep people on that launching pad instead of soaring to the stars. <<

Well, I don't believe that they "want" to keep folks on the pad. They truly believe that if you will let God work for you, he will. I suspect that is true, however, my thinking differs a great deal from their's, in that I don't happen to believe that you can "lay across the tracks and expect God to roll you from in front of the speeding train". I believe you have to first help yourself and then you can expect a little help. Nothing is free.

Russ "hit the nail on the head" when he said the majority have been sent by the court. There lies much of the failure. These folks do not want to think about God, pumps the guilt up 100 fold and then they really need a drink, or fix, or whatever. They have not bottomed out and they don't wanna change. Again, this is the majority!!

On the other hand, I have helped a considerable number of people that came to me because 12 step didn't work for them, but they did at least realize they wanted to change. I credit AA for some part of this.

Add to this the fact that without the 12 step to keep them busy for awhile, to keep them accountable, we would have all these folks driving around high, or drunk or whatever more than they do now. After AA, many get a driver some of the time thinking that will defeat the system. So AA contributes in a small way to the safety of the streets that you and I drive on.

I still think it is a great launching pad in one way or another.

EC

[skip]

A 4% success rate, if accurate, doesnt seem very successful.

But what is the measure of success here, because they are still at it, unchanged for how many years?

Are they seeking to get people off of alcohol, and only succeeding 4% of the time?

Or are they seeking to convert people to Christianity, and having much better success at that?

See it is insanity to continue to do the same thing and expect different results.

So given their results, why havent they modified the model?

Only one conclusion possible, they ARE satisfied with the results.

Now is that because 4% is the best out there, or is it because they have a different agenda?

I dont know, but the frame seems to be that the individual is powerless themselves and must have some external power to succeed, without which they are hopeless.

And I would agree that there does seem to be the mindset of replacing one addiction (alcohol) with another (Christianity). BUT in this they arent alone, how many methadone clinics are there?

Now it appears to me that the 'addict' comes with a built in mindset, that they cannot deal with reality alone, thats why they need X. Only X is "big enough" to help them cope. And they came to this mindset gradually, a little bit worked ok for a while, but gradually it took more and more, or something stronger. The only trouble is that X has some serious downsides, if it didnt, they would be perfectly happy to continue to use X.

So the question is, "Is it better to use the prevailing mindset, and replace one addiction with another with less downside, or is the prevailing mindset part of, perhaps the source of, the problem?"

skip

[Robert H.]

Consider this: When a person "hits bottom", it implies a threshold - the bottom. As anyone who has gone through a threshold experience know - this is really the beginning of empowerment.

I'm seeing 3 main objections to 12 step programs in this thread:

1. the powerless issue
2. that 12 step programs are a disguised forum for fundamentalist christians to convert folks
3. the percentage of success.

first let me clarify my position: I think 12 step programs are a valid approach to change. I have personally gone through the 12 steps for an addiction that had become an issue for me. This was after being an NLPer / and hypnotist for years, and thoroughly versed in both. This gave me a unique view to the whole 12 step process.

On the other hand I don't at all claim they are the end all be all of personal development strategies. It is simply one approach. I have personally seen it turn peoples lives around. I have also seen it make virtually no impact.

As Milton Erickson said, "your clients are only your clients because they are out of rapport with their unconcsious mind." Most of us hypnotist would readily agree with this. This implies that therapy of any form - when successful - is largely about re-establishing rapport with ones unconscious mind.

As a long term strategy - staying in the 1st step "we admitted we were powerless over....<insert addiction here>" is a terrible strategy.
Consider the opposite - Powerful. ---yes, you want to lead a client toward being so resourceful and empowered and creative and at choice and at cause around the substance they once were addicted to, that the thought of using the substance / or using it addictively depending on the substance.

YES YES YES YES

however, - if you have ever worked with an addict - you will likely have seen this - they believe 2 things in general 1) that the substance of their addiction is the source of their power. Notice this means they are already - when they seek any form of treatment at the effect of the substance / addiction. 2) they believe that they are somehow immune to the negative efffects --- it may take many forms such just this last time, or i never have any problems....to use marty seligmans paradigm they are overly optimistic about their ability to successfully navigate using (any past instances of problems are temporary, specific, and external or blamed on something or someone than themselves or the substance)...however, the negative effects that they PERCEIVE to go along with NOT using the substance are permanent, pervasive, and personal - UNLESS they can get the substance.

There is a polarity that hinges on these two false beliefs about power with respect to the substance. This is true for almost every addict. the form will very slightly, but it will be pretty close to this.

a 12 step program comes along and completely challenges these beliefs by introducing the frame of powerlessness with respect to the substance. Their unrealistic belief in the power of the substance and their power over it is one of the key things that has gotten them into trouble. The powerlessness move is actually a move to a resource space for an addict. This should be a short term / temporary move. After all it is step 1. It is just a beginning point.

What is the ideal resource for an addict. how about some notion that is the exact opposite of the structure that underpinned their ability to use the substance. powerlessness induces a sort of fear and caution. This is beautiful for an addict that is just beginning treatment.

Now, if 10 years later, a person still believes that they are powerless - that is a different story. If the powerlessness becomes an identity level belief, then it is a problem. Utlized correctly - which is where the powerlessness frame is a temporary move - it is brilliant. it is very hard to have an addictive response to something if you believe you are powerless over it...initially it creates an away from / aversion / mild phobia to the substance.

temporary Powerlessness is BRILLIANT in the case of an addiction. Often times for an addict the notion that they are powerless is like a breath of fresh air.

As hypnotists we don't have clients stay in trance for the rest of their lives, we use the trance to move them somewhere else. Powerlessness, when used appropriately does the same thing...it allows an addict to move somewhere else.

If it is maintained too long...which in 12 step programs it often is - unfortunately - that is where the dangers Don, and others are referring to. I invite the distinction to be made about where and when is powerlessness a valuable resource.

Remember the NLP presuppostion - everything is valuable - given the appropriate context. I am suggesting (this is a hypnosis forum right =) ) that in the initial stages of recovery powerlessness is a resource.

is it the only way. No, of course not. a good hynotist, NLPer or timeline therapist, can remove and reprogram the source of addicrtion in a few sessions. This is probably a better way to go.

Now when the powerlessness is done too long...i think that is an issue.

Another feature of 12 step programs is that invoke normalization, which is recognizing that you are not the only with this problem, honesty, and humility. normalization is a very nice - especially at first - it totally interrupts the shame piece which is - according to bradford, among others - one of the key pieces that create and maintain addictions.

Honesty - step 4 - 7 directly involve honesty. this is where an addict takes a fearless and searching moral inventory of them selves, then shares it with another person who is understanding. and then decides to change it - turns to the higher power - whatever it is - and then starts making up the damage they have done through the addiction. which quite frankly takes guts. And the very act of doing this elicits courage.

with regard to the polarity i mentioned earlier - when i hear polarity - i immediately think visual squash. yet, that is not the only way to resolve a conflict - ie between the addictive side and the "sober" side. According to NLP, key move is to resolve any conflict is chunking up a higher logical level.

Moving to ones higher power is another way to go meta to the conflict. the person is communication with something that is meta to their addictive relationship with the substance.

That is what I am hoping to do - is to get you to look at 12 steps programs structurally instead of from a content perspective. To do this requires that you go meta.

Look, if you have never done a 12 step program - try it for something simple - drinking coffee too much, or hitting the snooze alarm. In the NLP sense of tasking - I offer this challenge to Don, Skip, EC or anyone else. Purely as a flexibility exercise, and in the sense of discovery - try it out. I'm not even suggesting that you go to meetings or whatever. just honestly do the 12 steps. you can probably do it for something minor in about 4 or 6 hours.

You will learn something very valuable I guarantee you.

Oh, and I don't care what you use for your higher power either. In fact, as an additional stretch - use something characteristically NOT christian or religious - maybe a chair, or the wind, or a rock.

why am I suggesting this 2 reasons - 1st i don't get that you have direct experience with a 12 step program. I have to tell you it was a very powerful experience for me. I want you to experience that powerlessness can be a resource. If you and I sit here and rationalize about it - you will never get it. The only way to understand it is to experience it. And 2nd - 12 step programs actually use the same mechanism as good hypnosis, and I want you to discover that it is all hypnosis.

All the best,

Robert

[EC]

Hi Robert,

You are certainly correct in that 1st hand experience is the best teacher. While I have not had to seek such services, I have gone thru the 12 step with many, many times. That is why I agree with some aspects of the program as I previously stated.

There are many ways to define "hitting bottom", however, becoming helpless, realizing you don't have the power, you need help, the drug is in charge, etc, etc, is generally the end of one era and, for some, yes, the beginning of another. Some never get beyond being helpless, others are empowered, but It all begans with the very thing you are trying to describe and I agree, it is important whether the 12 step illicits it, or another therapy.

EC

[skip]

Hi Robert,

Excellent post and a good perspective on the 12 step buziness.

I still have the same "objections" you delineated and let me explain why.

First no prostelitizing period. It is invasive to install beliefs in someone vulnerable in this way. Now we all know true believers of any stripe believe they are doing others a favor, by prostelitizing, maybe even saving their eternal life, BUT it is unethical in this context, IMO.

Second, the AA people I know are not just taught they are broken, but are taught a 'permenantly broken' frame. Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. There is no success, they are still only recovering alcoholics even if they havent had a drop in 50 years. Threy are always only one drink away from rock bottom. That is not success, it is mere abstinance, using a carefully crafted away from frame of fear.

They substitute one addiction for another. This is touchy, because it is elegant in that it utilizes the behavior to effect the remedie. I like that. I tend to agree with that approach most of the time. AND the addictive behavior is excellent in specific contexts. However, other coping strategies need to be taught, cross contextualized, rather than the person continuing life with an addictive strategy as their only strategy. In this the 12 steps fail IMO.

That said, lest flip the coin. Even if the success rate is only 4%, thats still 4%. And since I dont know the success rates of other methods, that 4% may be the best by far.

AND the 12 steps do have some excellent strategies for getting back on track and trying to put the past to rest so that it doesnt hunt you too much. I agree that feeling guilty would not be productive so the making ammends part is brilliant IMO.

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Thank you for your informative post Robert. My own experience was not as in depth as yours, though I have attended several AA meetings, and once attended their Convention meeting held yearly here in Calgary. I was invited, and went to hear how good the speakers were since public speaking was a need for me at one time. I gained a great deal from those meetings and conversations I have had with Alcoholics, and I find it annoying that others stone Mr Wilson (can't remember his first name) for his lack of skills. Surely they understand that he was the original AA member, not just some smart alec who dreamed up something to make money.....He did extremely well for an alcy, homeless and down on his luck I suggest. Anyway, he told it like HE saw it, and it worked for those around him, so it grew. I have no idea were this 4% came from, but that in no way jives with my own observations. As for being powerless for the rest of your life, I have to laugh at the idea that not drinking alcohol makes anyone powerless. I would have thought just the oposite, that not drinking it after being labeled or labeling oneself alcoholic, would suggest great power within. Not that this is totally true, I know one AA person who can take a sip of alcohol, and reject the rest of the glass, just to prove it possible. Some do have that need, others are only too gratefull that they no longer have the urge........
Anyway, having worked with some AA people, I have learned to respect and like them, hence my defence of their right to claim success regardless of the bean counters who look at percentages, even ones that don't seem to be true to those close to the scene, and label AA a failure.