Bar exam, at least I think

[rd3500]

My cousin needs to take the bar oral examination in about 2 weeks (he and I are in Italy, I think that's the correct translation, basically the exam to become a lawyer). Problem is that he gets very tense to the point that he cannot perform.

I am a trained nlp practitioner (with bandler) and hypnotherapist (Jerry Kein) and would like to help my cousin. I have a limited although successful experience helping friends on various issues up to this point.

I did some search on the forums about this very topic (exams and stress) and found a couple of lines from Don that were useful:

"Focus on having her visualize feeling calm with breath as she goes through the entire testing process--from getting up in the morning, through going to school, entering the room, taking the test, etc.--as well as having her feel the answers easily, quickly, and completely come to her during the test, etc., etc."

Other things I thought are:

1) add to the "calmness" a feeling of confidence and resourcefulness, get those feelings strong and "spinning" and then having my cousin imagine taking the exam.

2) doing parts therapy, talking with the part responsible for the stress creation, asking positive intention and alternative behaviors that would accomplish same goal

Anything else that would be appropriate? Should I use light-medium trance or somnambulism or does not matter?

Thanks a lot, I really hope it will make a difference.

[Don]

Yes, it would be appropriate to have someone other than you do the work for your cousin, for the same reason that doctors don't perform surgery on their families.

[rd3500]

Don,

that's not an option, so the question would be: should I just let it be or do something about it. He already told me how next week is going to be stressful and he will not sleep, so he is already preparing to be stressed out about it.

Maybe doctors would do surgery on their family if that was the only option.

[Jack]

Success rehearsal is the best method for this purpose. Teach him how to do it and then leave him alone. If he want to pass the exam he will rehearse, if he does not he will not.

Jack

[skip]

You cannot go with preconcieved notions, you must find out what would be comfortable for him, not for you!

I had a client once who was to take a practical, for the third time.

Failure again and she was out of med school.

Now first of all she knew the material, none of this would have been worth a damn if she hadnt. And I was able to check that and calibrate to the fact that she knew she knew it.

And she could do the exams in front of other students, and several professors.

She just couldnt do it, in front of three professors, knowing that she must please them in order to pass.

I did two things.

One was to install the notion that you simply cannot please everyone, and if you try failure is inevetable. That she must self reference and please herself, in this situation.

Do the job she knew to be a good job and forget pleasing the professors.

AND, in her imagination, we filled the room with 100+ people who were judging her. She was comfortable with that, just like she was comfortable with doing exams in front of all the students who were judging her work.

In this way there were too many people to please and she couldnt fall back to the old behavior, she simply couldnt be bothered with pleasing all of them, so she had to do the job she knew was a good one.

She got an "A+"

Now I never would have dreamed of treating this that way in advance.

I would have 'thought' building confidence was the answer.

Instead she had plenty of confidence, it was a performance anxiety centered around trying to please people who were giving her no feed back.

My unconscious came up with it, during my working with her. That was because I was paying attention to what she was saying and doing.

Wouldnt have worked that way if I had diagnosed before she got here.

And I was able to check my work, so that I knew what state she would be in for the next exam.

If you dont check your work, how do you know you did any good?

skip

[Connie]

That's a wonderful lesson, Skip. Thank you. It's difficult (sometimes) for the beginners (that also means me) to understand that you work with the client in front of you. I'm learning! And what I also learned is that working that way is infinitely easier than trying to sort it all out in your mind first, in a vacuum. You don't know what to do in advance because you can't know. Embrace that not knowing. But trust that your training and your unconscious smarts and your powerful intent to help will see you through. So far with me and my initial clients, that strategy is successful!!

[Terry]

How many times do we need to say it? The client is unique, the client is unique, the client is uniqe!!!!!
I might add of course, the therapist is NOT God, they do nothing except guide according to the needs of the client.
Now how does one know the needs of the client unless the client is present?
Well, just one more way to say, WE CAN'T TEACH AT A DISTANCE..:cool:

[Connie]

Right on, Terry! I think what might be going on in rd's mind is similar to what I experienced. It's a lining up of ducks. What are my choices of what I might do? POSSIBLE interventions. To use Jack's words, I'm setting up my templates, for later shuffling. It is good to have that repertoire of choices in there, especially as you just begin to dip your toes into the water which is otherwise known as gaining experience in the real world working with individuals.

[Terry]

Problem is, what the poster got from Don's post is fine for everyone, since it is pure relaxation, but it seems he is not satified with just that, so it is nescessary to delve, and it would seem he lacks the experience for this.
What I did for one of my sons, was give him the trigger for relaxation, while that same trigger was used to bring forward the answer. Works like a damn if you know the answers already.... If not nothing works..:)

[skip]

Right on Terry, the most important one in the room isnt the therapast. They dont know the problem and they dont have the answer.

But the client does!

skip

[skip]

Connie,

Here is something really kwel (that's cooler than cool) to do.


First you ask, "What seems to be the problem?" (this is great trance induction in and of itsself)

Then you ask, "If you had all your conscious and unconscious resources available in the moment, when you needed them, as well as anything new you might need to learn, what would be the easiest, fastest, and most enjoyable way for you to handle this?" (this deepens the trance)

And watch the transdiversional search happen. (give them time)

Now the two of you have the answer, and you know and are already started on the changes necessary.


skip

[Connie]

Skip, I love you. There's a reason they pay you the big bucks to hang around here. Oh, they don't? :p Well, they should. :) Thank you!!!!

[Don]

In a training, Tad James shared a story about one of his students and the use of ideomotor signals (in this case, the movement of a finger). The student came upon an accident where a victim was barely conscious, incapable of verbal communication, and bleeding profusely.

The student asked if the unconscious of the person could respond to him, if so, would it please move a finger. It moved. The student asked if the unconscious knew how to stop the bleeding, and to move once for yes. Again, the finger moved once. "Was it willing to do so?" he asked. Again, the finger moved once. He then asked the unconscious to stop the bleeding, and within seconds, the bleeding stopped.

Paramedics said that if he had not stopped the bleeding, the victim would have died.

I agree that our unconscious minds know what it is we need to do and if approached properly can provide what we need, even if the conscious doesn't know and even if the therapist doesn't know. Our minds are not only more powerful than we think, they are quite likely more powerful than we can conceive.

[rd3500]

When I read "Training Trances" I was fashinated by how much therapy was done just by lifting one arm and telling the unconscious to come up with the solution while the arm was coming down. Or even NLP parts therapy where the creative part generates alternative behaviors even only unconsciously.

I am almost done watching the entire nlp comprehensive practitioner training (50+ hours of video) and one of the most important things I learned there was the fact that really good therapists are the ones that are able to take themselves and their thoughts out of the process and only guide the clients in coming up with their solutions, whatever they might be (to Skip’s point).

I will talk with my cousin tomorrow and gather more information and I will share my findings here. I will probably see him 3 or 4 times before the exam, tomorrow being the first time. Also, he has taken the written portion of the exam 4 times and this is the first time that he passed it and he now has to take the oral part, so that’s where we are. Thanks a lot to everybody that shared their opinions.

[Terry]

So let us get this straight, you have received training in hypnosis, and in NLP from presigious people, and only lack experience eh?
I can understand that, we all reach, and hopefully pass this point. What I don;t understand is your insistance that we can help you gain experience. That we can give you a blow by blow description and you will be successful. This dispite what we have told you to date. can you satify my curiosity?

[Jack]

I am almost done watching the entire nlp comprehensive practitioner training (50+ hours of video) and one of the most important things I learned there was the fact that really good therapists are the ones that are able to take themselves and their thoughts out of the process and only guide the clients in coming up with their solutions, whatever they might be .

You have learnt something useful.

Jack

[Poodle]

Read your first post again wherein you mentioned "spinning". Did Richard explain this to you? It doesn't seem as if you grasped it. PM me if you want more details. Hugs, Pood

[rd3500]

Terry, I am sorry I gave you that impression, it certainly was not my intention.

I talked with my cousin yesterday and I am reporting my findings as promised. He feels that most likely he will pass the exam but he is really dreading the experience of that day. He is already imagining the tension, pain in his back, confusion in his head because of the tension. He was telling me that all his exams during college have been that way, regardless of how much he was prepared, regardless of his expected outcome.

I went to bed and thought about having him rehearse the exam with him doing it feeling relaxed, focused and sharp and then I realized that I was really using my idea of a good exam (to Skip's point). So instead I am going to ask him to imagine how he would like to take the exam, how he would like to feel during the exam, check for any objections of other parts of him and if everything is ok, integrate that new behavior into self (pretty much new behavior generator technique).

Then I thought about rehearsing the same exam in deep trance, always using his description of a good exam, really "selling" the suggestions to his unconscious mind before giving them and starting the programming from the night before the exam going all the way until the end, using all the way his description of how he would like things to be (gathered from above).

That's the situation, will post an update as soon as I see him again.

Walter

[Poodle]

I do know of two very fantastic NLPers is Italy (one is a Trainer and another is an instructor of hypnotherapy) if you decide you don't want to do this. One is a man and the other a lady. The lady works in Rome and England so she could be either place.

[Terry]

rd, no need to apologise, what happens in your life is for you to deal with, and will not in any way affect me, except that in some cases, what I read leads me to believe I am wasting my time trying to help because the other party is not listening. Either you have the skills and experience to do a credible job or you haven't. Your posts suggest you have not got what is needed for the path you choose to tread, hence the advise to get someone else to do it instead. Your reply was that this was not possible, no explanation as to why it was so, which leaves us at an impass doesn;t it?
I already told you that straight relaxation techniques would help, and for that you did seem to have the skill, but you ignore what is possible, and persist in delving beyond you abilities. Why bother however to ask the skilled, it you intend to ignore their advise?
I wish you nothing but luck, but I refuse to waste my time, either it is given freely, and valued highly, or it is charged for at a very high rate. There is no in between except when dealing with friends who give as well as get...

[parsa]

I remember my university entrance exam. I was really stressed out.

It was kind of interesting though. I started looking around at other people in the exam room and it kind of made me calm. One girl had brought something around 20 pencils with her. Another had so many snacks and sandwhiches with her that she could probably feed the whole room:D. When they told us that we could start one girl picked up her paper with such speed that I thought she would fall off her chair. Later on I looked over and she was just sitting there staring at her paper.

[Terry]

I remember a maths exam that I had no warning of. The sweat ran down my arm like rain, and my whole arm became painfull, and froze so I was unable to write.
Strangely, in spite of that, I did pass the exam.
One secret weapon I used was a codene tablet taken about half an hour before the exam started. It relaxed me and removed all negative effects. Of course I still needed to know the answers from studying, but at least I had no complaint that I was unable to function at my best.....
In the UK in those days, codene was available over the counter....

[rd3500]

Poodle, I am most interested in the people you mentioned, especially considering that I am in Rome myself.

Terry, I will pm about your question. I appreciate your other comments and suggestions from your math exam experience (I will research codene here in Italy). I am learning a lot from all this and I hope this will be useful to others.

I saw my cousin today again and had him imagine the day of the exam the way he wanted to be. I suggested to him a couple of corrections that I thought were appropriate and he accepted them and incorporated them. He had problems at the beginning imagining the scene with no anxiety, like in his mind it was impossible to do an exam with no stress. After going through it dissociated, I had him associate and go through it that way, I asked if any part of him had any objections (no objections), then future paced it.

That's where I left it, he definitively looked relieved and happier after the exercise. Later in the day, I saw him again briefly (I should specify that we are neighbors) and he told me everything was ok and that he was preparing although at a slower rate. I am afraid that making him feel better about the exam will reduce somewhat his motivation to study and getting prepared (to the tune of: if everything will go great, why bother studying that much). I will check on this tomorrow.

I was also wondering about a point and I am using the exam and stress as an example but the question applies to many situations. Assume you have somebody imagine going through the exam with no stress. What happens if the person does feel some stress that day (which I personally would think is normal in the situation), would that make the person question the entire mental rehearsal that was done before the event and possibly invalidate the all thing and just revert back to old patterns?

The suggestions I offered to him after I heard his version of the perfect exam day were based on that very reasoning. Originally when he was imagining being in the examination room and listening to the questions asked to the people before him, he was also imagining knowing perfectly all the answers to the questions. I thought that was not ecological so I suggested to him to imagine that no matter the question he was going to be able to find a way to answer it, either because he knew it very well or by whatever other way his unconscious deemed appropriate in the situation. I wanted to avoid him being there that day and hear a question he didn't feel to know perfectly and starting to doubting himself, reverting back to panic mode.

[skip]

Reframe the stress.

Personaly I like a little stress, it maked me perform better.

It is part of the exciement of 'participating', (sports analogy) and wouldnt want to miss out on it for the world.

If there were no risk (stress) there would be no worthwhile goal.

So some stress makles me a better performer, it is just when the stress gets in the way oif my performance .....

skip

[Merlin]

Reframe the stress.

Personaly I like a little stress, it maked me perform better.

It is part of the exciement of 'participating', (sports analogy) and wouldnt want to miss out on it for the world.

If there were no risk (stress) there would be no worthwhile goal.

So some stress makles me a better performer, it is just when the stress gets in the way oif my performance .....

skip


I have to wonder if that might be a limiting belief on your part?
What does recall of answers have to do with stress?

[skip]

For me it isnt limiting, it is exilerating!

[Poodle]

in the US there are what we call "crib notes" for the bar. It's a computer program that helps prepare one for what comes up. I don't know if they would have something similar in Italy. I know Shane used it for months (so he said). Personally I think there was a lot of girlfriend mixed in there too.

[Jack]

What happens if the person does feel some stress that day (which I personally would think is normal in the situation), would that make the person question the entire mental rehearsal that was done before the event and possibly invalidate the all thing and just revert back to old patterns?

If the new pattern (the mental rehearsal) is installed correctly then it is unconscious. Consciously questioning the pattern would have no effect.

Jack

[Poodle]

That Jerry offers help to his graduates with questions? I know for 100% sure he answers emails. Pood

[JonRhodesUK]

It really depends upon your relationship with a friend or relative as to whether it is useful to give them hypnotherapy. In my experience it has been useful with many friends and family - except my brother who could not contain his laughter at me!

I think it is about how comfortable you BOTH feel in the situation.

A good ego boost session is usually a good start for these types of therapies. You could also get them really relaxed and then give them a keyword (post-hypnotic suggestion), such as 'relax' that they can use whenever they like.

If you are struggling doing the hypnosis sessions, then you could point your cousin to my site where there is a free 'ego boos' and 'relaxation' audio that would be useful.

[rd3500]

Small update on this:

I did a new behavior generator with my cousin about a week ago, imagining a stress free exam (as described in my previous post). Since then he had practically no anxiety.

I talked with him today, the exam is three days away, he was fine and could not believe it and his family could not believe it, so everything is good.

I tried something else with him which I will discuss another time. I think the most impressed is me on how much the simple technique worked. I should have known though :D

[rd3500]

Here is the update I was looking for, my cousin passed the exam and I am almost happier than he is!! That's funny:)

One thing I did not understand, he was talking about his experience today and at one point he had a lot of anxiety and felt he was in a total trance during the exam (my cousin is not experienced in hypnosis, he used the term trance not like we would use it although he meant the right thing in this case).

So the new behavior generator worked fine up until the exam, he was fine the days before even if normally he would have had major anxiety, sleepless nights, body aches and all that.

Then when he was waiting for his turn, he was quite stressed out and anxious, during the examination he was tense, basically not the way he imagined it. I do think the stress he faced today was the same I would have faced and pretty much most people would have faced, so I think that's normal, I am just trying to understand why and how his state diverged from the one that he built in mentally.

I kind of was wondering something similar before (meaning a few days ago), that's why I would like to understand this piece.

He was very impressed by the power of the technique and of course very happy about it all. Thanks for everybody that participated!

[Poodle]

One takes the Bar exam in the USA and one gets to wait a few months before one can find out.

[Jack]

Behavioural change can be immediate and it can be progressive. It is possible that he had not comprehensively rehearsed the actual exam, but only his response to the feelings he normally had before the exam. This could be because he was well aware of how he normally felt before an exam, but was not aware of how he would feel in this exam.

Jack

[skip]

I would say that you didnt adequately check your work. Otherwise you wouldhave known. No Exceptions.

Either there were aspects you didnt consider, or you didnt notice the state changes he exhibited as you were mentally rehursing.

Or maybe you didnt future pace ...

Could be a million things.

BUT more appropriately you should be ASKING HIM!

Not to be hard, but to be very blunt, you didnt learn much from reading our responses to your original question did you?

Do you recall that it ought to be him and his responses you should be focused on?

Perhaps you should consider that you 'got lucky' and didnt **** him up, maybe even helped, but certainly you have little business messing around with peoples minds until you have some clue as to what you are doing.

Did it ever occurr to you to ask HIM?


skip

[rd3500]

Poodle, in Italy the result of the written part is known like 6 month after the exam and they tell you when to go to do the oral portion (usually a few months later). They tell you the final result soon after you are done with your oral part.

skip: what I did is what I described in my posts, the new behavior generator, that's all. I tried to dig deeper and I hit a car accident that he had when he was 16 where his father died (which was also my mom's brother). I did not think was appropriate to deal with the accident at the time so I got out of there, meaning I emerged him (I should have emerged him even sooner but that's another story). Did not do anything else because I know there is a lot in that accident.

As far as asking him, he had the exam yesterday and I talked with him (with other people present) in general about the exam. I did not ask any specific questions yet, I will as soon as I can talk with him in private.

Also, I can tell you that he was not that much prepared. After all, he performed in the exam exactly how he imagined it (not too good, not too bad) but with the anxiety. I am assuming, and maybe my assumption is wrong, that when he imagined the exam, the anxiety was not there. I will ask him this week and report back like I always do. Thanks for the blunt :-) thoughts.

[Jack]

You have no idea what you did, with respect.

You came across a traumatic incident and 'emerged' him? What do you think was happening in his mind as you accidentally tripped across this by deviating from the NBG and 'going deeper'? What do you mean by that? Running away from an event such as this can have worse results than dealing with it. You may have left detritus behind that was not there before, but you have no idea whether you did or not since you 'got out of there'. How very responsible.

Then you proceed to blame your friend saying he was not prepared and he performed 'not too good, not too bad' as he imagined it. How do you know that is how he imagined it? Have you considered a career as a mindreader?

I often wonder how wise it is to have knowledge available to everyone, particularly a little knowledge.

Jack

[skip]

Agreed Jack.

You know I would feel better about this if he would take a little responsibility.

Then I might have some hope he might seek and learn how to really do this.

As it stands now, I fear he will attempt another 'success'.

skip

[rd3500]

I guess I was not clear in what I wrote. As far as going deeper, I was referring to the fact that I did an elman induction on him to install a resourceful anchor that he could have used the day of the exam (as was also suggested here). When I was done with the induction and I asked him to imagine a positive experience, one where he felt resourceful, he could not find any and he reported me back this sad feeling and everything else did not matter.

At that point I asked him when was the first time he felt that feeling and he mentioned the accident. I was not prepared for it, so I told him to let the images fade away and I emerged him. Let me also tell you that I went back home that night and did not get much sleep because I was afraid I messed up bad. I called him the next morning and he was fine like absolutely nothing happened.

The induction had nothing to do with the NBG, I wanted to innocently install an anchor and I hit a trauma I was not prepared to deal with. I made a mistake asking him when he felt that feeling. Giving that I was not going to deal with it, I should have just emerged him. Needless to say that I will never make that mistake again.

As far as why I know how he was going to perform, the reason was that while doing the NBG technique he was describing me what he was doing. He wanted to tell me about it because that helped him focus on it. And he described doing an ok exam, not too good, not too bad, which is what I reported in my post. If I gave you the impression I was blaming him, it was never my intention.

Having said all that, I understand that sometimes people come here after reading a book or a web site about hypnosis and they want to do this and that. I read this forum too and I see those messages.

In my case, I got training, I studied books, audio books and videos and I try to be very careful. I don't have the experience which is why I ask questions and report back what is going on.

[Jack]

I think that is a fair and honest reply.

It does however point up what I said earlier, to whit: a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The availability of books, CDs, and training courses is widespread. What does not appear to be available is supervision after one has read all the books, listened to the videos and gained the techniques from the wide quality spectrum of training courses.

The techniques are easy to acquire, but mixing and matching them by the inexperienced can lead to unforeseen consequences. You admit that once you had exposed a trauma you did not know what to do, and that is to your credit, but with respect by then it was too late. Whether there are, or will be, any consequences to your actions is moot. Neither hypnotherapy nor NLP is dangerous per se, but it is entirely possible for 'sleeping dogs' to start barking on all sorts of levels once inept probing has occurred.

No-one would want you to stop reporting back your experiences and gaining input and reactions - we all learn in this way - but I would ask you to try to find an experienced supervisor with whom you can safely practice techniques before experimenting on friends, particularly if the technique is likely to involve abreaction or you have any indication that your subject might be unstable; then you are always sure that you can deal with it and cause no harm.

Jack

[Poodle]

I greatly commend you on your desire to learn. I received a PM that we were too harsh. I really don't think so. I know exactly what was and was not presented at the NLP training. I have absolutely NO idea why trance was used to install an anchor. I was PM'd immediately for help which was sent to undo the damage done but poster decided the "help" was not necessary as cousin was fine.

We have two major problems here. The NBG was NOT taught in class so how would poster know about Future Pacing????? It had to come from the videos as I have a list of everything taught in that training.

Secondly, just because cousin is currently fine, does not mean in the least that cousin is going to stay fine, be it a couple of days, a month or a year. I am not sure that cousin was in trance as it "sounded off" to me. On the off chance that cousin was in trance, I would suggest that you do as I told you to and drop the cavalier attitude of all is well NOW.

One should NEVER perform hypnosis WITHOUT in-person, hands on training and practice on other students. It was Jerry Kein that said: hypnosis is not dangerous enough but that is in the hands of skilled professionals. It can be absolute mayhem in the hands of the untrained.

Sorry to be rough on you but that is how we learn. I was a professional and had good training before joining this Forum and Terry really yelled at me. Why? Because I was dead wrong and he and everyone else here knew it. Trust me. I never made that mistake again in my life nor will I ever.

Wishing you the best of luck and success, Pood

[rd3500]

PM was sent soon after a first read and was an immediate reaction. After some time I understood and did not look at it the same way as you can tell from the tone of my response.

I could have sworn that NBG was thought at the seminar, I went back to the manual and indeed is not there. Then I figured I saw it on the nlp comprehensive practitioner training video series (and studied it in a few books). Nice confusion going on in my head... which I understand now is what you guys have been telling me for a while.

I did not think I had a cavalier attitude about how my cousin is doing, I went back and read my post and indeed I wrote that he is fine now, which was the wrong thing to write. I should have said he is acting like everything is totally fine (and I really hope that's the case) but definitively I don't really know.

I realized I know way less than what I thought. At the training people were looking for me to do exercises, I had fun with hand shake interrupts and other inductions, I was even called on the stage at one point to explain the phobia cure given that the teacher was not able to make it understandable to people not very familiar with nlp. I guess all that gave me a false sense of knowledge. I am determined to figure it out, actually the more I am realizing I don't know, the more I want to know.

I never liked those people that thought they knew something when in reality they did not and I really don't like to be part of that group. I will post later my thoughts on how I am planning on clear up the clearly big confusion going on in my head. In the meantime, thanks...

Walter

[Jack]

Sorry to have to tell you that the confusion lasts a lifetime, Walter. It's called learning and when you stop doing it it's time to book the plot.

Your attitude is good. Keep seeking to clear the confusion, and as you seek you will learn. If you are jumped on from a great height then someone considers it worthwhile to do so.

Jack

[skip]

rd,

"I guess I was not clear in what I wrote. As far as going deeper, I was referring to the fact that I did an elman induction on him to install a resourceful anchor that he could have used the day of the exam (as was also suggested here). When I was done with the induction and I asked him to imagine a positive experience, one where he felt resourceful, he could not find any and he reported me back this sad feeling and everything else did not matter."


This is a perfect example. If you are going to hypnotize someone, then you have a responsibility to them.

If you knew that finding a resourceful state was important to what you were doing, why didnt you find one?

It is impossible for people not to have at least one resourceful experience.

It doesnt matter if it is a BIG deal experience or just a little thing, the resourceful feeling is what matters, and you not only abandoned getting something you knew was important to the NBG, but you ignored something his unconscious felt was important to bring up at that moment.

Now those are the facts.

If you feel I am being unduly hard on you, then alter the facts pal.

Unlike some others I dont think this is going to come back and haunt him. If the accident is causing a problem. it still is and hasnt changed. If not, so be it.

And he got thru the exam, because/despite your "help".

We run the risk of screwing someone up every time we use our skills. And there isnt a single one of us who hasnt made a mistake.

Now your cousin doesnt know you screwed up. He may even be giving you credit for passing.

But you know you did. Big time!

You were lost at sea.

What do you intend to do about it?

skip

[skip]

rd,

"I guess I was not clear in what I wrote. As far as going deeper, I was referring to the fact that I did an elman induction on him to install a resourceful anchor that he could have used the day of the exam (as was also suggested here). When I was done with the induction and I asked him to imagine a positive experience, one where he felt resourceful, he could not find any and he reported me back this sad feeling and everything else did not matter."


This is a perfect example. If you are going to hypnotize someone, then you have a responsibility to them.

If you knew that finding a resourceful state was important to what you were doing, why didnt you find one?

It is impossible for people not to have at least one resourceful experience.

It doesnt matter if it is a BIG deal experience or just a little thing, the resourceful feeling is what matters, and you not only abandoned getting something you knew was important to the NBG, but you ignored something his unconscious felt was important to bring up at that moment.

Now those are the facts.

If you feel I am being unduly hard on you, then alter the facts pal.

Unlike some others I dont think this is going to come back and haunt him. If the accident is causing a problem. it still is and hasnt changed. If not, so be it.

And he got thru the exam, because/despite your "help", and you dont even know which.

We run the risk of screwing someone up every time we use our skills. And there isnt a single one of us who hasnt made a mistake.

Now your cousin doesnt know you screwed up. He may even be giving you credit for passing.

But you know you did. Big time!

What do you intend to do about it?

skip

[Poodle]

Now I'm confused:

"I realized I know way less than what I thought. At the training people were looking for me to do exercises, I had fun with hand shake interrupts and other inductions, I was even called on the stage at one point to explain the phobia cure given that the teacher was not able to make it understandable to people not very familiar with nlp. I guess all that gave me a false sense of knowledge. I am determined to figure it out, actually the more I am realizing I don't know, the more I want to know."

What training? What teacher was unable to make it understandable?

I never liked those people that thought they knew something when in reality they did not and I really don't like to be part of that group. I will post later my thoughts on how I am planning on clear up the clearly big confusion going on in my head. In the meantime, thanks...


Confusion is a wonderful state as it is on the edge of understanding. Had you stayed for Master Prac you would have learned how to take confusion into learning. Way kewl stuff, huh? Nothing in our worlds remain the same as each new client is different from all the previous and every student is different from the previous. There are never two trainings with the same trainer that are identical. I happen to personally love confusion as it means I'm on the edge of something really good. I sincerely hope the day never comes when I have nothing left to learn because that day will be the day I die. Bye bye Miss American Pie - Pood

[rd3500]

Skip, to answer your question, here is what happened exactly. The first time I talked with him, I did a sub-modalities elicitation for a good/resourceful experience and an un-resourceful one. So I had a resourceful experience for him to recall but it did not matter.

When I asked him after the induction to bring up a resourceful experience, he reported a sad feeling, specifically a feeling of loneliness. That sad feeling was making it so that those same images from the good experience would not bring up the resourceful feelings (specifically the color changed and was the same as the un-resourceful experiences).

When I heard that, I did not insist. I asked the stupid question about where the sad feeling was coming from but at the same time realized that nothing else was possible if I was not going to deal with that block.

As far as what I intend to do about it, I will write it in another post later today.

Pood, I will PM the info about the training. As far as confusion and understanding, that’s one thing we did in Orlando (I am sure :-)), Richard talked about it. I don’t usually like confusion but now that you make me notice, it is there just before learning. I hope something good is going to happen soon then!

[Merlin]

I guess I was not clear in what I wrote. As far as going deeper, I was referring to the fact that I did an elman induction on him to install a resourceful anchor that he could have used the day of the exam (as was also suggested here). When I was done with the induction and I asked him to imagine a positive experience, one where he felt resourceful, he could not find any and he reported me back this sad feeling and everything else did not matter.

At that point I asked him when was the first time he felt that feeling and he mentioned the accident. I was not prepared for it, so I told him to let the images fade away and I emerged him. Let me also tell you that I went back home that night and did not get much sleep because I was afraid I messed up bad. I called him the next morning and he was fine like absolutely nothing happened.

In hypnosis,
The mind cannot tell reality from memory.
In effect, you have given the gift of reliving this event.
Now it has litterally happened twice.

Does it matter?
who knows.
But whatever the mind does with this event, it now has two events to remember :(
It's called compounding.

[Poodle]

somethings should be compounded and others not. This was a definite not.

[Terry]

rd, I strongly object to you using something I said in a post on this thread as a partial excuse for what you did. I told all who were interested what I, a skilled and practised practitioner did in a simple way that got results. This simple act was sufficient, yet you took it and used it in such a way as to risk harm. That is why I have refused to continue to contribute to this thread for some time as I perceived you as a person wishing to act beyond your skills and experience, and had no wish to contribute to that...
To apply stricture to those who only wish to help others is a sad thing, but often we see someone like you who choosed to jump the gun and practise in a dangerous manner. This we cannot contribute to.
Either respect others and yourself, or cease using such a powerful weapon without the knowledge of when you are out of your depth. If I had my way, anyone asking a "how to" question would be expected to offer their trainings, and experiences in advance of a reply, and such replies as members chose to offer would be via email, and not posted on the board for all to read.... It is time we idiot proofed this board, and made it unatractive to children, and those who wish to play hypnotist.

[Merlin]

I do my best to answer in such a way that a skilled hypnotist can understand, yet confusing to a noob.

[Don]

A long time ago it was I who made the posting that clearly stated we cannot teach the skills in the forums. They're made for discussion, not teaching. The problem, of course, is that it's difficult to separate the two, especially when someone is asking questions for discussion.

Further, Terry, I regret to say that even if we could "idiot-proof" this forum, it wouldn't help much. That genie is out of the bottle in numerous websites and books, and assuaging out consciences by saying "But we didn't do that" merely drives a person elsewhere for more partial information.

I would suggest, therefore, that continuing to advise proper training along with giving accurate and thorough information is the most appropriate response. Regrettably, that means effective answers can't simply be NLP or hypnotherapy jargon and will tend to be longer. But to quote Underdog (the cartoon--not the movie which I've not seen) "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it!"

[rd3500]

Terry, welcome back :-) I did not mean to use what you said as a partial excuse, I thought about doing it anyway.

I thought about what to do next and I have a question. Last time he was reporting a feeling of loneliness that he connected with the car accident that happened when he was 16 when his father died.

I think to release the emotion (that I realized is conditioning him to this day because of conversations I had with him over the years), a change in personal history/time line therapy is the appropriate thing to do. I am familiar with the technique, I did it with people several times live during training.

I was also thinking before that, to have him do the trauma process (I don't know if that's what is called but basically phobia cure applied to the accident). It seems a good idea to me but I don't want to do anything before I checked with somebody else first which is why I am asking.

Walter