View Full Version : Light and Sound Machines
Unregistered
10-07-2004, 01:05 PM
Hello to all. I have recently went through hypnosis to stop smoking. I had great results. Since then, I have read two books and would like to practice self hypnosis. I am having a very difficult time getting into the "alpha" state. I'm curious if the light and sound machines advertised really work for getting someone into the alpha state? Would anyone recommend them? If so, is the Proteus just as good as the David machines?
Thank you in advance,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
Frankly I see little value in light and sound machines.
In self hypnosis, conscious interference limits the depth. A hypnotist however, can help you reach the depth you desire, and then can give you a method to go there any time you like. It is a one session deal.
EC
Merlin
10-07-2004, 07:52 PM
Do you want hypnosis or "Alpha" state?
They are not the same.
Those machines may produce the "Alpha" states you seek, but that isn't hypnosis.
Hello Merlin,
If 'hypnosis' is not the same as alpha state,(or presumably any other brain state) then could you explain how it is different?
The trance state is a brain state.That would only be untrue if you were ascribing the trance state to something other than the brain. If you are, then what?
Jack
Do you want hypnosis or "Alpha" state?
They are not the same.
Those machines may produce the "Alpha" states you seek, but that isn't hypnosis.
Hello Daniel,
Congratulations on being a non-smoker!
The alpha brain state is nothing more than a relaxed conscious state in which the critical faculty of your conscious mind is either relaxed or temporarily removed and access is gained to the subconscious. Some people would maintain that this bypassing of conscious criticality results in heightened subconscious awareness, and I would be one.
Every day you are in alpha, theta, delta and beta to varying degrees without the intervention of an hypnotist or any hypnotic induction to take you there. So, in fact you do not have difficulty getting into alpha state, but may have difficulty in controlling when you enter it, how long you stay in it and when you leave it because you are not aware that you are in it.
There is nothing mystical about a trance state. It is a normal functioning of the human brain. Sound and light machines can be used to help you to enter alpha or any other state and to remain relatively stable in the chosen state, but they should be used with caution. 'Binaural beat' sound is quite useful in helping to achieve a chosen brain state, but I have my doubts about frequency pulsed led's simply because of the danger of prompting an epileptic attack in people who are not aware they have the condition.
Achieving self-enabled trance, whether you want to call it 'hypnosis' or brain state is about practice. The more you practice the more your brain will get the idea that this is a desirable thing, the easier it will learn, and the deeper you will be able to go.Using a machine to circumvent or accelerate that learning process may or may not be a good thing, I honestly don't know.
If you want to know more about brainstates www.alphadynamics.com (http://www.alphadynamics.com) has a page on it, and there are numerous pages on the net about the 'binaural beat'. Hope that helps.
Jack
Personally I like the light and sound machine. And yes, I use it in my practice with MUCH success. I find it enhances the experience for my clients. Many call them a crutch and I disagree. I don’t use them as the “only way”, but as an option.
I’m probably the exception here, but I think they’re great.
Merlin
10-08-2004, 08:48 AM
Jack,
Put 24 or 32 probes on someones scalp and you will find different brainwaves from point to point, hypnosis or no.
If one part of the mind is in Alpha, and another part with Theta, are you suggesting only part of the person is hypnotised?
What part are you watching?
If a person is in hypnosis and I suggest they produce Theta, are you suggesting they will no longer be hypnotised?
Are you saying hypnosis cannot occur without relaxation?
With over a billion braincells and possibly a trillion synaptic connections, are you seriosly suggesting that measuring a few points on the brains surface is going to tell you what the whole brain is doing?
Hypnosis is a particular thought process, the *bypassing* of the 'critical factor' of the conscious mind.
I can bypass that CF when I'm relaxed. I can bypass it when I'm actice, I can bypass it when I'm hysterical.
I can bypass the CF with one part of my mind in Alpha and another part in Theta.
I can bypass the CF with three parts in Alpha, Four in Theta, and one part in Delta. (yes, I can achieve all those states in different places *simultaniously*, so can you!
>The trance state is a brain state.That would only be untrue if you were ascribing the trance state to something other than the brain. If you are, then what?
You're working with very old methodologies!
Merlin,
Well, we've had this discussion many times before, but what the heck...
You said:
'Put 24 or 32 probes on someones scalp and you will find different brainwaves from point to point, hypnosis or no.If one part of the mind is in Alpha, and another part with Theta, are you suggesting only part of the person is hypnotised? What part are you watching?'
Place 32 probes on a human skull and you will find one dominant brainwave pattern for any given brain state. Having personally been involved in many experiments in the psychology and physics departments of several UK universities over the last ten years the statement is a truism and I find it difficult to understand how it could be perceived otherwise. Denying it would be akin to saying that the earth is completely flat or the moon is made of green cheese. There will be other subsidiary patterns. Since fluctuation occurs in all (organic) brains of course there will be patterns which fall outside the given frequencies, but there is always a dominant frequency, and that fairly describes brain state at the time of measurement. Yes, of course a brain can be in alpha, theta, delta or beta since as hypnotherapists we all understand that trance states deepen and lighten rapidly as information is accepted and processed, but there will always be a dominant frequency, and that frequency is roughly equivalent to various trance states.
"If a person is in hypnosis and I suggest they produce Theta, are you suggesting they will no longer be hypnotised?"
If a person is in what you call 'hypnosis' (and even James Braid realised his mistake in calling it that) first of all you cannot 'suggest' they produce theta waves since they are unaware of the nature of theta waves and therefore cannot symbolise the concept of theta. If you were to say 'I want you to dream' then of course it is possible to simulate or replicate dreamstate, or theta.
"Are you saying hypnosis cannot occur without relaxation?"
I am saying that there cannot be 'hypnosis' without the relaxation or voluntary passivity of the conscious part of awareness, which is equivalent to your concept of 'critical factor'. Do you disagree with that?
I am also saying that subconscious or unconscious awareness is heightened by the trance process as awareness is turned inward and the level of external, conscious events perceived by the brain is reduced. Do you disagree with that?
"Hypnosis is a particular thought process, the *bypassing* of the 'critical factor' of the conscious mind."
A nice textbook definition which means absolutely nothing. It is woolly, meaningless and invokes an object called the 'mind' which is not defined and not physically present in the skull of any individual. What particular thought process is 'hypnosis'? Could you particularise it for me since you use the phrase so loosely? What is the 'mind'? How does it differ from the brain? It has to differ in some way for you to make weasel statements of the sort witnessed above.
"I can bypass that CF when I'm relaxed. I can bypass it when I'm actice, I can bypass it when I'm hysterical".
Of course you can.Who said you couldn't? Congratulations. Here's your first 'hypnosis' diploma.
"I can bypass the CF with one part of my mind in Alpha and another part in Theta".
Of course you can. Near-simultaneous dominant brain states are common as explained above. Both the states you mention are trance states and therefore the 'critical faculty' is already bypassed.
"I can bypass the CF with three parts in Alpha, Four in Theta, and one part in Delta. (yes, I can achieve all those states in different places *simultaniously*, so can you!"
Thank you for those kind words. And indeed the totally new, undiscovered by anyone but you knowledge that the 'mind' is divided into just eight parts.The achievement of various states 'simultaneously' is just very fast cycling between states so that you perceive it as simultaneous. Are you familiar with the 7+/-2 induction? It's a basic fractional induction but makes the point about 'scanning' discrete pieces of information at such a speed that they appear to be simultaneous.The brain does that very well, so it is easy to be fooled by your own.
Now, I said "The trance state is a brain state.That would only be untrue if you were ascribing the trance state to something other than the brain. If you are, then what?"
You answered with: 'You're working with very old methodologies!'
Apart from the fact that you omitted to answer the question, and that my current methodology is based on current research in the UK, USA, France and Russia, don't you think there is a little inconsistency in your approach in general? I leave it for you to decide how.
Jack
__________________________________________________ _________
Pay no attention to that woman behind the curtain (on this subject)!:)
Merlin
10-09-2004, 11:20 AM
>I am saying that there cannot be 'hypnosis' without the relaxation or voluntary passivity of the conscious part of awareness, which is equivalent to your concept of 'critical factor'. Do you disagree with that?
Yes Jack.
I'm disagreeing with the concept of relaxation associated with hypnosis!
>I am also saying that subconscious or unconscious awareness is heightened by the trance process as awareness is turned inward and the level of external, conscious events perceived by the brain is reduced. Do you disagree with that?
Yes Jack, I'm disagreeing.
While it is true that most hypnotic methods lead to that end, it is not necessary.
>an object called the 'mind' which is not defined and not physically present in the skull of any individual.
I've never said the mind is in the skull.
> What is the 'mind'?
Any and all intellegence associated with the person.
>How does it differ from the brain?
Tremendously Jack!
A library of books could be written and barely scratch the surface.
>It has to differ in some way for you to make weasel statements of the sort witnessed above.
Only weasel because you lack understanding.
When I was a young girl, I grew up in an Apple orchard.
Every tree had Apples. It was wonderful.
All trees had apples. (or so I thought at the time).
If someone said otherwise, I would simply reach up into any tree and prove them wrong.
I was sure I was right. Every conceivable test had proven it beyond any doubt!
It was years before I examined a tree outside my world.
When I did, I founf not all trees have apples.
Jack, I'm inviting you to come outside of your world and discover there are more than apple trees.
>And indeed the totally new, undiscovered by anyone but you knowledge that the 'mind' is divided into just eight parts.
That was never said!
>Now, I said "The trance state is a brain state.That would only be untrue if you were ascribing the trance state to something other than the brain. If you are, then what?"
I am. Something called the mind.
I understand that what I'm saying is beyond your current paradigm.
>Thank you for those kind words. And indeed the totally new, undiscovered by anyone but you knowledge that the 'mind' is divided into just eight parts.The achievement of various states 'simultaneously' is just very fast cycling between states so that you perceive it as simultaneous. Are you familiar with the 7+/-2 induction? It's a basic fractional induction but makes the point about 'scanning' discrete pieces of information at such a speed that they appear to be simultaneous.The brain does that very well, so it is easy to be fooled by your own.
There are many, many things the mind does simultaniously.
7 +/- 2 simply refers to tracking awareness.
The mind does not have to regulate heartbeats, blood pressure, body temperature, breathing, bone building, muscle building, walking, healing and more, by quickly switching among 7 +/- 2 tasks.
The mind can do many things simultaneously.
>Here's your first 'hypnosis' diploma.
Oh Gee
Lofty you condescending to me.
I feel so good about this!
Thank you for your kind words!
My daughter had bunions on both her feet and being only 14, they were causing her discomfort and embarrassment. We went to a surgeon and he did the surgery on one of her feet. We didn’t like his bedside manner so went to a different surgeon for the other foot. Came to find out he did things a bit different. Same surgery, but done different ways.
All said and done, she has fairly similar scars. Both feet look great. Neither is causing her anymore pain. The difference in surgery and the bedside manner bother produced results.
TYPO FIX to the above!
bother=both
(wish we had an edit feature!! )
Merlin
10-09-2004, 08:42 PM
Sky,
There are *many, many* methods which are *excellent* for changework.
Just because they aren't hypnosis doesn't meen they don't work.
Merlin,
Since you haven't argued the some of the points made I will take it that you cannot. But I am very interested in your other replies on all sorts of levels.
Your other replies:
"I'm disagreeing with the concept of relaxation associated with hypnosis!"
Just to be straight, you believe that there is no voluntary passivity or relaxation of the conscious mind associated with the trance state.So, if this is true how could the critical faculty of the conscious 'mind' be bypassed? By force? Magic? You have said that you believe in the 'critical faculty'.
"Yes Jack, I'm disagreeing.
While it is true that most hypnotic methods lead to that end, it is not necessary."
I think everyone would be interested to hear why it is not necessary to turn attention inwards and reduce the level of external, conscious events perceived by the brain to engender a trance state.
"I've never said the mind is in the skull".
No, you didn't. Where do you think the 'mind' is?
"Any and all intellegence associated with the person".
Your defininition of the mind. What do you mean by intelligence? Do you mean the capability to think, the ability to be aware that you are thinking or something else. If so, what?
Tremendously Jack!
A library of books could be written and barely scratch the surface.
I asked how the mind differs from the brain in your opinion, not the opinion of numerous authors who cannot be questioned. More weasel.
When I was a young girl, I grew up in an Apple orchard.
Every tree had Apples. It was wonderful.
All trees had apples. (or so I thought at the time).
Perhaps you should have asked. Maybe you should have opened your mind to possibility.
If someone said otherwise, I would simply reach up into any tree and prove them wrong. I was sure I was right. Every conceivable test had proven it beyond any doubt! It was years before I examined a tree outside my world. When I did, I founf not all trees have apples (was this recently?)
Merlin, I am inviting you to ditch the pre-school logic and self serving metaphors and discover that many people examined your apple tree and spotted that apples are not the only fruit. Most people grew out of crypto-mystical interpretations of perceived reality when Father Christmas turned out to be Dad.
I understand that what I'm saying is beyond your current paradigm.
Perhaps it is outside, but not beyond my current paradigm. Yours is one I subscribed to in my early teens. Nowadays, I have this old fashioned view that I like to see proof before believing in fairies.
You said "I can bypass the CF with three parts in Alpha, Four in Theta, and one part in Delta. (yes, I can achieve all those states in different places *simultaniously*, so can you!" Then you said "That was never said!
OK, I understand that in your world if you say something then you can later claim that it was never said. Logic and rationality would only serve to confuse the fantasy.
The mind does not have to regulate heartbeats, blood pressure, body temperature, breathing, bone building, muscle building, walking, healing and more, by quickly switching among 7 +/- 2 tasks. The mind can do many things simultaneously.
How do you make this assumption? Also how do you know that these functions have anything to do with the 'mind' at all? They are functions of the autonomic nervous system and are controlled by the brain. If you don't believe that then remove a person's brain and see how well they perform these functions. Since there is no 'mind' physically present then removing it would have no effect at all. I know you would prefer a mystical explanation but eggs remain eggs no matter how nicely you paint them for Easter.
Go back to your tree and check the produce. Apples? It is an apple tree. Pears? It is a pear tree. Fairies? It is not a tree or you need new glasses.
Jack
Hello to all. I have recently went through hypnosis to stop smoking. I had great results. Since then, I have read two books and would like to practice self hypnosis. I am having a very difficult time getting into the "alpha" state. I'm curious if the light and sound machines advertised really work for getting someone into the alpha state? Would anyone recommend them? If so, is the Proteus just as good as the David machines?
Thank you in advance,
Daniel
Well I can speak from personal expierence that they work for me, I use software based ones though instead of an actual 'machine'. If you google around I'm sure you can find some to try out, Bwgen or Neuro Programmer work well I found, not providing a link to them as it would be spam, so if your interested you can google and look for em.
To Mods: if mentioning those products is considerd spam feel free to delete the post.
Zanther
10-14-2004, 09:17 PM
It's kinda refreshing to read actual logic and EXPLANATIONS at work here Jack. =)
Not knocking others...I just enjoyed that post
Merlin, I am inviting you to ditch the pre-school logic and self serving metaphors and discover that many people examined your apple tree and spotted that apples are not the only fruit. Most people grew out of crypto-mystical interpretations of perceived reality when Father Christmas turned out to be Dad.
I understand that what I'm saying is beyond your current paradigm.
Perhaps it is outside, but not beyond my current paradigm. Yours is one I subscribed to in my early teens. Nowadays, I have this old fashioned view that I like to see proof before believing in fairies.
You said "I can bypass the CF with three parts in Alpha, Four in Theta, and one part in Delta. (yes, I can achieve all those states in different places *simultaniously*, so can you!" Then you said "That was never said!
OK, I understand that in your world if you say something then you can later claim that it was never said. Logic and rationality would only serve to confuse the fantasy.
They are functions of the autonomic nervous system and are controlled by the brain. If you don't believe that then remove a person's brain and see how well they perform these functions. Since there is no 'mind' physically present then removing it would have no effect at all. I know you would prefer a mystical explanation but eggs remain eggs no matter how nicely you paint them for Easter.
Jack
Terry (existing)
10-15-2004, 09:37 AM
We seem to have wandered off the original posted question, so I will return to it. You ask if the light and sound machines help you achieve the Alpha state, and the answer is YES they do. Which is best is up to you, you usually get what you pay for. As to if they help you enter into a hypnotic state, the answer is NO, it assists you to relax, which is what the Alpha state is according to my understanding. Do no let confusion result in a purchase you will be unhappy with, but if relaxation is what you want, go ahead and buy one. Sky and others use such machines, usually because they are a member of a franchise which promotes them, and indeed they may cut down time needed by the practitioner to induce the client, but some of us scorn them because we have reached the stage were we have no need of more speed. I have used such a machine in the past for research, and found it of little value to ME, that does not mean that I has no value to others, they make their own choices. What I will say, is that if anyone is suffering migrain, I highly recommend that they get one. Terry
Just for the record.. I'm in private practice and do not sell the machines. I also don't insist anyone uses them, but offer them, explaining the benefits and risks. (Yes there is a very slight risk of bringing on a seizure if someone is prone to seizures or has epilepsy. That question is even asked on my client information sheet and if they are prone, I will NOT use the machine with them.)
Statistically, of the hundreds of clients I have seen over the last few years, only one person didn’t want to try them and only one person didn’t like them after trying them. ALL my repeat clients ask for them.
The machine helps promote alpha, but the hypnotist does the actually deepening…