The Waning Of A Fashion.

[TLC]

I notice that a few people who are regulars of these forums could not handle the intrusion of some contrary thoughts from a new member, or two, in another thread. Rather than try to argue rationally why they thought him wrong, they called out a lot of names, accused him of being contentious for its own sake, exhibited thereby a state of denial, then, mysteriously, all of their posts stopped.

Some might suspect that they had privately decided to shun the topic. Rather like footballers huddling together and in a private language deciding their tactics.

Although this may be a strategy that serves its protagonists well as a device for enabling them to preserve their beliefs from the vicissitudes of doubt, it has a certain consequence for the standing of those beliefs, and such people, in the eyes of the broader society.

Could this behaviour typify what happens to a fashion, when its proponents give up the attempt to convince others and dedicate themselves to preserving their beliefs among their close knit group. It is very like what happenned in the Nineteen Seventies when Prog' Rockers were unable to convince the world that Punk Rock was a mistake, turned in on themselves, and allowed the course of Pop music to change completely. You try arguing with those Prog Rockers that there was anything wrong with their art. They would just call out names and turn away. Is this now happenning to NLP?

[Don]

TLC, I must respectfully disagree with your knowledge of musical history.

Before WWII, popular music, in the form of jazz bands were oriented toward dance music. During WWII the number of partners to dance with became tiny, as did the number of musicians. Smaller bands developed playing music for musicians--cool jazz--rather than for the people who just wanted to dance.

The earliest forms of rock music, too, were based on dancing. As prog rock developed it moved futher and further from understanding this. Who can dance to "Long Distance Runaround" or "Karn Evil #9?" Punk and "alternative" developed as a natural opposition ot the proggers.

Progressive rockers did not "allow..the course of Pop music to change completely." The natural desire to dance rather than to just listen insisted upon it.

But Prog Rock survives just as surely as the modern Ford Mustang is still a hot car. Go to http://www.progressiverockbr.com/ and see for yourself.

Don--who has played keys before audiences of 10,000, opened for Elton John's original band and Great White, etc.

[Terry (existing)]

Anyone, including you, and the troll who posted the comments you so vehemiently defend, is able to post on this board. Many do so without any experience, or knowledge except that based on reading a book, so obviously we are very different one from the other. I have no need, no right, and no intention of attempting to defend anything others may have said, except to say that the original poster was the first to insult, so anything said to him after that was a retaliatory response, hardly something to lay blame to, but merely a natural reaction.....As for your defence, it would seem that this also is based on tunnel vision, and gives rise to the suspicion that you and the troll are one and the same person (G) True or untrue, the suspicion is there, and "with cause" no denial will be accepted, since no denial can be proven..........
NOW, time is a wasting, so understand that I have no intention of wasting mine on another marathon thread containing nothing that contributes to knowledge, you are welcome to declare yourself a winner as far as I am concerned, and I hope others will follow this lead, and ignore you unless you have something to say that has value. For myself, I will continue to believe that the majority of those who contribute to this board are decent honorable people who care about their neighbours, and help were they can.....

[Merlin]

It is the nature of fashion to change. There are many dynamics which bring on such changes.
The *fashion* of NLP will likewise change.

NLP will remain for those who learn it and use it, but for those who wear it as a fashion, it'll go by the wayside. It'll lose novelty.

>You try arguing with those Prog Rockers that there was anything wrong with their art. They would just call out names and turn away.

As would just about anyone on any subject.
*ATTACK* their model of the world, and they will dig in.
It is very seldom that you can punch someone in the nose and have them smile and agree with you.

>Some might suspect that they had privately decided to shun the topic. Rather like footballers huddling together and in a private language deciding their tactics.

You could choose to think that, couldn't you?

[j0hnny#]

NOW, time is a wasting, so understand that I have no intention of wasting mine on another marathon thread containing nothing that contributes to knowledge,
I think I learned a thing or two from that thread... in fact I seem to remember learning a whole lot about rapport... deepened something for me despite there being a whole lot of playful banter...

Still, I think it seems to be veering off topic now... but at least the new issue has its own thread... I suppose

you are welcome to declare yourself a winner as far as I am concerned, and I hope others will follow this lead, and ignore you unless you have something to say that has value. For myself, I will continue to believe that the majority of those who contribute to this board are decent honorable people who care about their neighbours, and help were they can.....
Here, here!:)

though I think TLC has an interesting frame of reference... TLC = probably right about fashionable things being determined by majority opinion... but then I suppose that kind of tautological...

TLC... you seem to me like an intelligent person, though I'm a bit puzzled abot your seeming obsession with defending St Cloud's good name;) ... what gives man? (or woman?:) )... Still your polemical stance is IMO worthy, as is PEte's... I think controversy breeds clarification ultimately, or at some point along the way.... cheers...

Bear in mind though - a lens creates a nice fire when turned in the right direction...

On the fashion ting, I agree with Merlin (I think)... Try defining the word 'cool' for example....

[TLC]

Thanks for the musical explanation. I like Yes myself. I'll admit the prog/punk dichotomy was not a great example. But you see my point. Raise anything critical to these people ( e.g., Terry ) and they react with a lot of insults. Like teenagers whose musical tastes you question. I invite you all ( oh third party readers ) to read my first post in the thread and then read the Terry post and then ponder what in the one could possibly provoke the other. And that is from someone pretending to be a sophisticated communicator ( i.e. NLP practitioner ).

[Don]

I don't question anybody's tastes. One person likes Bach, another likes Camper Van Beethoven. One person likes meat, another is a vegetarian. What is wonderful is that we live in a society where different options are available.

Actually, there is a difference between criticism and attack. I'm not attacking you for this; rather, I would attack the school system which doesn't make clear to people the difference between a criticism and an attack.

For example, you began this thread by saying, "I notice that a few people who are regulars of these forums could not handle the intrusion of some contrary thoughts from a new member, or two, in another thread." First of all, the "contrary thoughts" were not merely "contrary thoughts." They were outright attacks. For example, one person started posting saying that these people, who had spent many years helping others with amazing results, were using "worthless" techniques. That is an attack on their beliefs and everything they've done! That was a denunciation of all the people they'd helped. Not only that, but the person who made the post came to this forum which is dedicated to the study and dissemination of those very techniques he called "worthless."

There is a famous story that although people denounced Mussolini for being a terrible fascist dictator, at least he made the trains run on time. This, although still an attack, bears the semblance of being a critique. That is, instead of just throwing everything together in a pile and denouncing it, they separate what was perceived as being good (trains on time) from the bad (fascist dictator). This person didn't separate anything. He just aimed a nuclear bomb and dropped it, denouncing everything.

If you had been reading the many threads here, you would have seen a lively debate over various techniques and methods. Do they work? Are they valid? THAT is a critique. Simply attacking everything someone does, believes, and practices is not a critique, it is an attack. And I would think you would know that if anyone is attacked their first response is to defend themselves. It is sad that they need to do it here, but even sadder that people have gone all over the internet and feel their lives are so small that they need to spread their personal discontent in life by attacking the very being of the people who wish to share what they know and have experienced for years.

Frankly, the people who have responded, in my opinion, have been incredibly contained in the way the replied to their attackers.

What has really happened, in my opinion, is that some bullies have come here with a "my way or the highway" attitude, and people with experience and knowledge have stood up to the attacks. The bullies, as with most bullies, have turned around and cried, "boo hoo, you're attacking me." The bullies have gone through life with so few people standing up for their beliefs and experience and thus, standing up to them, that having it happen is a new experience and they don't know how to respond.

TLC, let me make clear, that we are NOT here to be critical of others. If you want to find a place where you can be critical of others I invite you to start your own website or go to the usenet. There are plenty of places to do just that. They usually end up leaving the thread topic and comparing each other to Hitler and the Nazis.

However, if you want to discuss hypnotherapy, NLP, TLT, and associated topics, we invite you and anyone else to do so here without attacking others! Terry and I have disagreed often by criticizing (that is, thoughtfully commenting on the qualities, not just dissing) comments, perceptions, and ideas without attacking each other. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Unfortunately, some people brought up in schooling where this is not taught, people living one the web where the rumors spread by Drudge are given the same validity as facts checked multiple times by news agencies, the difference between critique and attack is often unknown.

Respectfully, whether you acknowledge it or not, your first post--even it's subject title--was an attack on people here. I saw it as such and interpreted it as such. But rather than attack in kind, what I chose to do was refute your main metaphor. Unfortunately, you missed my point. So I'll spell it out here--

It the metaphor chosen to represent an argument (note: a philosophical argument is not people disagreeing with each other, it is a series of statements or premises that lead to a conclusion) is false--as I showed and you agreed above--then the argument itself is false (note: it may be able to be proven through other means, but that was not presented here). By showing that your metaphor was false, I also showed that your contention, as presented, was false. This is known as "formal logic," something which should be taught in school, but usually is not.

You began this thread, then, by attacking people, including Terry. Your attitude, then, is "I'm right and Terry is an a**ho!*." And you're surprised that Terry responded in kind? I'm surprised that Terry responded so kindly.

As you may know, an internet "Troll" is a person who throws down a bomb in order to rile things up. Such a Troll may not care about what is being discussed or may not even believe his or her post. Their only goal is to raise heat and anger. So I can see why Terry might assume that you could be a Troll or even the original poster. I don't know that and I don't care. Terry took the wise position of letting you say out loud that you are the "winner" and ignoring future trolling.

I chose to respond again in the hopes of making clear that there are different sides to issues and that frontal attacks and denunciations are not educated critiques. We invite reasonable, logical, specific critiques here. We encourage debate. But the moderators are not so foolish as to mistake attack and denunciation for criticism and logical thought.

TLC, we hope you--and everyone else--will continue posting here, both questions and responses. But we will not tolerate personal attacks or bullying and will edit or delete comments of that type. If people want to attack and bully, please go elsewhere. If people want to discuss any side of an issue, and if they want to strongly defend their position in contrast to others who strongly defend their positions, we invite you to post here.

[TLC]

But I havent attacked anybody. I seem to have been the one under attack. Unless you really do think I am "Peter St.Cloud". Lets face it, if I had wanted to attack anybody, he would have been an easy target. I've been to his web-site and I found there a very embarrassing photograph of him performing one of only two stunts specifically prohibited under UK Home Office regulations for stage hypnotism. He then goes on to boast of being one who obeys these regulations, in a text full of solecisms, mis-spellings and bad grammar. Had I wanted to attack anyone I would have mentioned this sooner, but I certainly have not been "defending" him. For I can see that his WAS an attack.

My crticique has been sincere. From an objective viewpoint, the responses to St.Cloud were in the same shrill terms as his attack. It occurs to me that the thread makes a good illustration of principles of Transactional Analysis. The attack being on a "juvenile" level seemed to provoke a response on a "parental" level. Which misses the opportunity of dialogue that is only possible on an "adult" level.

It remains true that no matter how much a person asserts "I am right" because of "exoperience", that does not make that person right. Apart from the few who have been in orbit, all our experience indicates that the Earth is flat, but we know that it is not. That knowledge exists in terms other than experience.

Incidentally, the comment that Mussolini made the trains run on time was an irony. It wasnt because people were cutting him some slack but that they were placing his infamy into perspective by saying that the only good thing about him was thast he made the trains run on time.

Just because a group of people insist that their beliefs are right does not mean everyone else must accept that. After all, the internet is a public space. If people get up chanting political slogans or religious doctrines, they should not expect to go unchallenged. On the contrary, if they are confident of their belief systems they can draw strength from the opportunity to explain them. Automatic defensiveness, wherein criticism is seen as a personlaised attack indicates a lack of confidence. Personally, I find your imputation that my education is deficient, made twice above, is something that I would be justified to regard as offensive and a personalised attack. I do not, because I know that it is certainly not true. I see no reason to be defensive or start calling names and making accusations ( e.g, Terry ).

Lets just consider the following question: who was it who said that: "The client is cured when they pretend to be cured long enough that they forget that they are only pretending."

[Unregistered]

...they're all as bad as one another.

Delete me if you want, mods, whomever you may be, but you can't stop me knowing that.

[Unregistered]

unless really mistaken, I understood where Peter was coming from in his initial post, and from additional posts he wrote explaining a bit more what he meant, it seems unlikely that he intended to offend.

TLC (tender loving care, it is ?) - I agree with you, people who 'want' to get offended, will do so.

Thank you speaking up !, and presenting your prespective.

[Merlin]

>...they're all as bad as one another

Why thank you!
I do try!

[TLC]

People seem to have ran with this musical analogy. I only chose musical arguments because it was the first thing to enter my head. Another example would be all those people who insist that their preferred candidate will win the next election. Question whether that candidate appears likely to win and you find so often the supporter will dig in and snarl their assertion that of course their side will win...because they want that to happen. It does not mean that it will happen. There are not so many people who seem willing to admit that their side seems likely to lose in November, or wherever theequivalent would be. Merlin refers to this, with his punch on the nose comment. My position is that there is no point relating to such people. I am more interested in the minority who are willing to consider that what they wish to believe to be the best candidate may not be the cone that is going to win. The problem is, whilst music is a matter of taste and one cannot say that one persons taste is wrong whilst anothers is right, NLP is NOT a matter of taste. Whether its claims are open to question. Sure, you can believe what you like in private, but correct me if I am wrong, this IS a "public forum" and when you start attacking MY belief system in public...the belief system called science, then I also have a right to defend myself. As the saying goes, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

But I repeat my question, who was it who said that a client is cured when they pretend to be cured for long enough that they forget that they are pretending?

[Terry (existing)]

OK TLC since you wish to be specific in your claims and choose me as your target, I am up to it believe me.
You make the statement that I attacked Peter in my first post. Now go back and read that post, and then repeat what you said or apologise.......
Then go forward and read all my other posts, all of which were in reply to the very stupid coments from Peter suggesting that I might be amenable to kissing his bloody a.s because he was from the french aristocracy. The man was downright insulting, yet I kept my cool and used humour rather than anger since not knowing him, it might have been humour on his part also. As for my coments to you, they were never rude, and until now, not even crude, but I'll be damned if I will put up with your supercilious attitude any more.....If you must continue along these lines, I must request that you be banned, not for having a differing attitude to the rest of us, but for deliberately trolling after being warned that that is what you are doing..... Apologies are much like cold baths in winter, but if you choose to attack others, you must then show you have the guts to be contrite and make amends for your errors....

[TLC]

Terry:

So you are mad....

Who invented the hand-levitation?

...Who was it who said that the client is cured when they pretend to be cured long enough that they forget they are pretending.

This thread is about the waning of a fashion. Does anyone know of anyone who still practises Perkinism? In 1800 Perkinism was bigger in the US and Britain than even NLP. ...