A hello and a question

[VcElder]

Hello,

While this is my first post here, I have been a long time reader and I wanted to give a short hello and ask some questions.

I have recently been studying Jerry Kein's instruction on hypnosis and it is phenominal. I can understand why he is an industry leader as well as revered in the community. I have been taking a look at what I would like to do with my newly found turbo-charged hobby, and I am coming up with a series of questions.

A) I hate to admit it for fear of abuse from the hypnotherapy community, but I am interested in learning stage hypnosis. I am little bit confused about where to find my training as there are so many names out there.
I have as of date considered:
Atilla
G. Ronning
Gil Boyne
O. Mcgill

and I understand they are all good, but what I am curious about is who will give me the best foundation for a fairly clean show.

I also pose a thought I have been wondering...Why do hypnotherapists hate stage hypnosis so much?

I do understand that stage hypnosis makes a theraputical hypnotists job much harder, however, in my humble and while trained, yet inexperienced opinion, stage hypnosis has given credibility to the profession. I think had it not been for stage, perhaps hypnosis would be compliled in the "new age" section at the book store as opposed to "self help, or physcology." What is everyone's opnion?


Anyway thanks for reading and I look forward to posting more

[Connie]

Stage hypnotism is a PROFESSION, for professionals. Or, it can be. If you want to learn it as a business and as a profession, from a man they call "Mr. Clean," I suggest Geoff Ronning. My understanding is that Ormond McGill is deceased.

[Poodle]

and Gil Boyne teaches only Clinical hypnotherapy of approximately 400-500 hours of continuous study and established the ACHE.

Let me understand the question. You have formally taken hypnosis training in person to date with Jerry Kein? OR Just watched some Jerry Kein videoes? Jerry has been known to do some very fantastic stage hypnosis and knows a lot about it. If you are indeed an Omni grad then Jerry would be the person to answer your question. He has a habit of answering emails personally. Pood :rolleyes:

[VcElder]

Hey Pood,

Just his basic through advanced course via video..although watching his videos its hard not to feel like you were taught himself.

They have given me a fairly solid foundation of knowledge and practice as well...

now I have this wonderful new super charged hobby I play with during my free time, with my friends, at a few meetup groups.

I sort of want to invest more time and training into learning stage and there is just so much out there and while there is plenty to find on therapy, very little is on the net in terms of Quality of stage stuff..or atleast I am not finding it.

Everyone here seems to be fairly opinionated (long time reader) so I would figure i would ask :-)

[MarkyV]

If you are looking for more video tutoring, Jon Chase has just brought out a new Stage Masterclass video - I trained with him last year and can recommend his teachings - if you want personal training, he only works in the UK. - you can find his details on his site - thehypnotists.com

But - please, please, please - don't try out your learnings on people until you have a really good understanding of what can happen - all the best stage teachers will tell you the first rule of hypnosis is to respect the people you are working with.

Good luck with your persuits :)

[Merlin]

Many of us support stage hypnotism :)
But do get in-person training.
The show is a minor part.
Learning how to track people's actions and avoid injury are biggies.
Dave Elman was a stage hypnotist and brought the work to Drs.

[VcElder]

Thanks for all the insight everyone. Connie has definately put geoff ronning a good light and I will consider him more indepth. I look forward, to posting more and so forth and learning...I don't know though...Terry hasn't jumped on and chewed me a new one...I don't feel properly introduced to the forum:D

[Poodle]

he may be on vacation right now. It is very quiet without him and only leaves me to do his work! I don't know if Geoff would even consider you as you have not had in-person training. Merlin is a magnificent therapist and also does stage hypnosis. Maybe you should get yourself to a good in-person hypnosis training before embarking on something different.

Do not think for an instant you will automatically be in Vegas or a ship. Geoff paid his dues the hard way as have most great stage hypnotists. He and his wife "lived" in the car and went from county fair to county fair. It was like: drive down dusty dirty road to county fair, set up equipment, do show while pigs are squealing and many other distractions. Finish the show. Gather your equipment and drive to the next county fair to do it all over again. Is this really what you want for your life? So far you have not put forth the effort for a live, in person, training with lots of practice on other students. You like Jerry? Then go to Florida and spend a week with him to learn it right.

[Don]

I also pose a thought I have been wondering...Why do hypnotherapists hate stage hypnosis so much?

I do understand that stage hypnosis makes a theraputical hypnotists job much harder, however, in my humble and while trained, yet inexperienced opinion, stage hypnosis has given credibility to the profession. I think had it not been for stage, perhaps hypnosis would be compliled in the "new age" section at the book store as opposed to "self help, or physcology." What is everyone's opnion?

I think people here focused on other aspects of your question, so I thought I'd respond to the aspects listed above.

1) I don't think hypnotherapists as a group "hate" stage hypnosis. Some do. But I do think many, if not most hypnotherapists dislike bad stage hypnotists. The difficulty here, however, is what is "bad."

I personally have a distaste for stage hypnotists who are bad performers. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them out there. This shouldn't be a surprise--if you watch early episodes of American Idol for every good singer there are probably ten horrible singers. In fact, there is a "rule" called "Sturgeon's Law" (named in honor of science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon who supposedly came up with the comment): 90% of everything is garbage.

Some hypnotherapists are very prim, fuddy-duddies, who dislike any sort of adult-oriented, R-rated or even X-rated entertainment. Some stage hypnotists offer shows that are adult oriented so those hypnotherapists don't like such stage hypnotists. Personally, I think they can be fun IF given to an adult audience where everyone knows it's going to be that way. I would say that any show like that presented to minors or unsuspecting adults is absolutely tasteless and should be denounced.

Finally, stage hypnosis shows should be fun, and some people think that fun equals funny. And funny to some people includes making fun of some poor slob. This type of humor has been popularized all over the world and many people like it. But many people also have a distaste for anything that makes people look foolish or do things that are degrading. The fact is, even shows that are respectful may appear as degrading to some people. When children sing "I'm a Little Teapot" and act it out, it's cute. If an adult pretends to be a teapot on stage, some people consider it degrading. So it's okay to degrade children but not adults? I don't know. There's a fine line, there. A good stage hypnotist has everyone feeling good about being silly, and the audience laughs with the people on stage, not at them.

You are correct that stage hypnosis has made hypnotherapy more difficult on a couple of levels. First, stage hypnosis is about entertainment, and some of the people who perform just are attention whores and aren't hypnotized at all. As a result of all this, people have mistaken notions about what real hypnosis is and hypnotherapists spend time correcting those mistaken notions. It takes up some time, but not that much.

Another problem is that it often makes people fearful of hypnosis and the power the hypnotist supposedly has over subjects. Again, part of what hypnotherapists do is make the client feel safe. That includes letting them know they're always in charge and won't do anything they don't want to do. We just help them make the changes they desire to make.

However (and here's something not a lot of hypnotherapists will admit), the feeling that the hypnotist "has the power" is usually not fully suspended by clients. Thinking that the hypnotist is "going to do something to me and I can't resist" can actually help in the hypnotherapeutic process. I don't know of any hypnotherapists who will consciously try to make people believe that, but we're not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince a client that we're powerless--we just try to shift some of that power back to them so they feel more comfortable. Some hypnotherapists may deny this, but I would contend it's true.

I do have to disagree with you that stage hypnosis has given credibility to the profession of hypnotherapy. Any time you turn anything into a party game it lessens the concept of professionalism. It does enhance some of the mystery and power of hypnosis, but it doesn't help the therapeutic aspect of the profession.

And finally, there is evidence that the practice of hypnotherapy, under other names, has existed for many thousands of years. That's hardly "new age" at all. Some believe that it is stage hypnosis that has kept hypnotherapy from being more widely accepted as a valid therapeutic modality. While I'm not sure that's true, I wouldn't say it has helped.

[VcElder]

he may be on vacation right now. It is very quiet without him and only leaves me to do his work! I don't know if Geoff would even consider you as you have not had in-person training. Merlin is a magnificent therapist and also does stage hypnosis. Maybe you should get yourself to a good in-person hypnosis training before embarking on something different.

Do not think for an instant you will automatically be in Vegas or a ship. Geoff paid his dues the hard way as have most great stage hypnotists. He and his wife "lived" in the car and went from county fair to county fair. It was like: drive down dusty dirty road to county fair, set up equipment, do show while pigs are squealing and many other distractions. Finish the show. Gather your equipment and drive to the next county fair to do it all over again. Is this really what you want for your life? So far you have not put forth the effort for a live, in person, training with lots of practice on other students. You like Jerry? Then go to Florida and spend a week with him to learn it right.

Pood, While I do agree with you for the most part regarding in person training. There is nothing like class room time,

however to play devil's advocate,

I think that it is possible to get a solid foundation of knowledge from the videos..as long as they are good ones. I mean what makes the hypnotist? the venue he receives his knowledge or the method in which he applies it?
Does it matter in which venue I learned the Law of compounding suggestion? I mean as long I was taught correctly via video or person, it may not matter...It depends on the person, intelligence etc. Hypnotising people and practicing a correctly learned skill is what is important not necessarily the venue in which the skill is provided. ( As long as the skill is qualified and presented properly of course)



All that being said, ultimately i agree with you, there is nothing like good critiquing and in-house training. As for being a Pro- Stage show hypnotist, right now its just a super charged hobby for me...Im really a computer network nerd for a living...this is what I do for fun. I would love to put on good shows for volunteer work or in a local watering hole bar. If it goes past that...who knows? Thesis statement:No delusions of granduer here.

[Connie]

Vc, as I told you privately, Geoff Ronning gives an EXCELLENT grounding in hypnosis as part and parcel of the stage training. Of course he would take you as a student! If you have any questions, simply ask him. I'll be happy to give you his email address if you like! As for the notion that you NEED other training first, I disagree.

[VcElder]

Don,
first and foremost thank you for your thoughtful reply to my question. In all honestly that was the question I was most interested in.

That is an interesting perspective on the stage business, riding the fine line of people's perceptions and then catering to them is what it really boils down to.

The 90% of garbadge statement is what makes me weary starting out in terms of training. There is so many people willing to take a check from you and "show you" the right way of doing things.

I did want to clarify my statement of "new age." I am quasi aware hypnosis's long and diverse history. Ranging from the greek times of the "sleep temples" to mesmer to braid in coining the term hypnosis etc.

The term "new age" to some people, characterizes a certain concept. Like take Reiki or energy work. Regardless of its validity, it is characterized in a certain light, regardless of a person's believe system.

An example of this is the book store. If you wanted to find works on Free-Masonry for example, would you find it in the world history section or the newage section? The answer is newage...regardless of Free-masonry's interesting ability to pop up through out history, dating back to 986. I'm going on a tangent here but I guess my point is, hypnosis has been given a certain, plausibility to the general public, over say, energy work.

To be clear, I am not making a statement on the plausibility of hypnosis OR engery work, I am making a general statement, stereo-type if you will of the general public's idea. My point is that stage hypnosis, while has definately caused all of those difficulties from a theraputical standpoint...IE everything you stated I agree with, whole heartedly, I think that the public's believe in hypnosis has been helped by stage hypnosis...perhaps to believe in the wrong concept, (Ie Power over a person, Mind control etc) they made believe the wrong thing, but they do believe.

Quote:"

I do have to disagree with you that stage hypnosis has given credibility to the profession of hypnotherapy. Any time you turn anything into a party game it lessens the concept of professionalism. It does enhance some of the mystery and power of hypnosis, but it doesn't help the therapeutic aspect of the profession."

I guess the power of a perspective and a belief systems is a powerful thing...I guess if i had to say thesis statement: " Stage hypnosis has given a plausibility and a belief in the overall concept of hypnosis, even if misguided"

Now I do agree with you from a theraputical standpoint, but then again the statement isn't worth much, I don't know anything about it.

To qualify my statement, if you ask 100 people selected at random in a major city, and you ask them the plausibility of say, Wiccan Magic, your negative vs positive results will greatly different then if you were to ask them about hypnosis.

What does everyone think?

[Poodle]

should know because she's been there, done that. If she says he covers everything, then it's fine by me. PM her for complete information.

[VcElder]

I allready have, but i appreciate the insight pood.
:)

[Poodle]

I can't quite believe you wrote that! I have had numerous clients that have wanted hypnosis but have seen stage hypnosis shows. It imparts fear into them that they will do something stupid or they were not hypnotized (one induction does not fit all) so they come in very much afraid saying: "I was told by a stage hypnotist that I cannot be hypnotized" In NLP we have quick answers for that.

Then I get, "You are not going to make me bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken are you?"

To get to the bottom, it usually makes my job harder and I have more to explain away. Now for the ones that come in and want to know if hypnotis can ... I just pull up a couple of videos from YouTube and let them watch. Seeing is believing!

Geoff is a Certified Instructor with the National Guild of Hypnotists. He is the real deal. He is not just an anyone with a hand out for money. If I wanted to learn stage hypnosis I would go to him or take off for our lovely, beautiful and multi-talented Merlin.

Jerry Kein nicely explains how stage hypnosis works. As Don wrote there are exhibitionists that are not hypnotized but like to have FUN and then the other group which is somewhat stuffy being able to blame it all on that EVIL HYPNOTIST. HE MADE ME DO IT!! Apparently you did not get that far in his videos.

Now, if you check my profile, you will find it was the ancient Egyptians that had Sleep Temples. Pood ;)

[VcElder]

Hmm you didn't seem to grasp my point, perhaps I am explaining it wrong?
Anyone else?

To get to the bottom, it usually makes my job harder and I have more to explain away. Now for the ones that come in and want to know if hypnotis can ... I just pull up a couple of videos from YouTube and let them watch. Seeing is believing!


I believe my exact statement was:Now I do agree with you from a theraputical standpoint

I do agree stage hypnosis, makes your life harder. What I find interesting is that you would point someone to youtube for convincing of hypnosis....aren't a majority of you tube videos on hypnosis either stage or rapid/instant inductions? Seeing is believing...so my question is when people look at hypnosis, what are they looking at? This sort of begs my first point...stage hypnosis creates a plausibility in hypnosis. It doesn't make it easier from a theraputial standpoint, by anymeans. it makes it harder, just like don said. Misguided as the view is,it is created.

Jerry Kein nicely explains how stage hypnosis works. As Don wrote there are exhibitionists that are not hypnotized but like to have FUN and then the other group which is somewhat stuffy being able to blame it all on that EVIL HYPNOTIST. HE MADE ME DO IT!! Apparently you did not get that far in his videos.

That's an interesting concept. By that statement, one could infer there is no such thing as stage hypnosis, but then again I shouldn't infer anything..its a bad habit and it characterizes poor taste.

Ooh lastly thanks pood, I did learn something interesting about egyptian sleep temples. As awe inspiring as your profile is, I deceided to take a look at google, and I found many interesting things about egyptian and greek sleep temples.

[Don]

...however to play devil's advocate,

I think that it is possible to get a solid foundation of knowledge from the videos..as long as they are good ones. I mean what makes the hypnotist? the venue he receives his knowledge or the method in which he applies it?
Does it matter in which venue I learned the Law of compounding suggestion? I mean as long I was taught correctly via video or person, it may not matter...It depends on the person, intelligence etc. Hypnotising people and practicing a correctly learned skill is what is important not necessarily the venue in which the skill is provided. ( As long as the skill is qualified and presented properly of course)

All that being said, ultimately i agree with you, there is nothing like good critiquing and in-house training...

Vc, you are correct that you can gain knowledge from videos. I suggest people watch videos, listen to audios, and read lots of books. The problem, as I have mentioned many times before, is that they teach you about ideas. They cannot check to see if you have learned them. Even if they properly explain certain methods, there's no guarantee that someone observing a video will correctly learn how to put the information into action. They may not even correctly understand the information.

There are books (and, I imagine, videos) on how to do certain brain surgeries. Would you really want to go to a brain surgeon who told you he never trained in a hospital and never did any surgery but did watch a video?

I don't think so...

[VcElder]

Could you imagine?
I would so go to Uncle Carl's House o' Neurology. ..."and for $2599 I will send you my 50 video library on proper brain surgeon and if you act now will send you this free cow brain, and free access to our email mentor program..:D "

[Merlin]

Hey Pood,

Just enter into their model and utilise there presupps.
Don't fight them.
Even they can be easy subjects.

[Poodle]

That's exactly where the NLP SOM comes in soooo handy! I know you know exactly what I say too.

[Poodle]

You have been studying Jerry's videos. Did you watch them all and did you take the test? If so, that would make you eligible to ask him these things instead of coming to a Forum of strangers. Jerry does grade each test personally and he usually has some mind provoking questions.

[VcElder]

Lets say I didnt. Infact Lets say I have been lying and I am a terrible liar for second. I don't know the difference between pharsing, somnamublism and the law of compounding suggestions. Lets say I don't know anything about hypnosis.

What does that do you for your arguement? Instead of addressing my above stated points, you just attacked my knowledge base.

Ironically EVEN after Merlin advised you to go into MY map. But instead you stuck to your point and map, pride and true, by trying to prove that my previous statements are incorrect, based on my "limited" training.(If I have any that is)

Your not very good at this you know...I left plenty of arguable points up there and anyone with an inkling of sense could argue. Discuss.

As for why you are personally offended about me asking for recommendations where to get training....The end all of the omega of your map..I get the 3rd degree on what I know. What does it matter to you? Maybe its an ego thing? I see some of you regulars bash people who are just asking questions. Some deserve it, some dont. Regardless, I digress.


But I wouldn't want to be called uncivil, so I apologize to you pood. I genuinely do. I don't want to offend you for a few reasons:
A) This is a public forum. Where strangers get together to discuss things.Why come to a public forum if you don't want to talk to strangers, stupid or educated?
B) With the exception of a few people I see, this looks like a pretty helpful place with some pretty helpful people, like Don and Merlin, and good repository of knowledge if you search old posts..
C) I like to think I have manners. It makes my ego feel good. A character flaw I know, but I know my faults. It makes you a stronger person.

So Pood

Here is what I am willing to do for you. Because you are honestly very very very concerned about my training, I will get with you on IM or a private chat room, with whom ever you want and I will spend 15 or twenty minutes and answer questionss IF it will make you feel good, I will do it. maybe it wont.

I mean its the only way youll really know. I can blather about my training what I have and all that, but you honestly don't believe anything I say so...I''ll put my money where my mouth is. Test me. IM or chat, time limit per answer what ever you want, but you have to promise it will make you feel better.

OR you could take merlin's advice, and try to implement the technique correctly towards my previous arguement. Enter my map. You might learn something.

Or maybe you wont even dignifiy me with an answer to this post...thats ok though, your silence will be loud enough for me to hear.

Eitherway, its all fun to me..I love debating and hypnosis:D

Regards,
Vic

[Connie]

Back to your original topic! :) Not to sound like a broken record on Mr. Geoff (but I like him SO MUCH!), he really is wonderful. Extremely talented. What you are paying for is his expertise, the fact that he HAS paid his dues, he's made the mistakes, he's learned what works, his approach is thoroughly professional. So you won't have to make those same mistakes. He doesn't want you to! Yes, you can start and perform in any venue you like--right away. Successfully!!! Much better than the bulk of other performers out there right now doing this work.

[Poodle]

You totally missed Merlin's point. You don't understand mine. Connie has given you the correct answer and you want to beat a dead horse to death. It matters little if you have previous training or NOT as Geoff will TRAIN you as he is a CI for The National Guild of Hypnotists which means he teaches a minimum of 100 hours of training. It's not by video. It's in person with practice on other students.

Your training or lack thereof matters little to me. Pood :rolleyes:

[Connie]

The NGH is having a teleseminar on stage hypnosis this weekend, you might want to check it out, Vic! :)

Sunday, June 3, 2007 - 9:15 pm Eastern time
The Ultimate Stage Hypnosis Workshop with Jerry Valley
Learn why stage hypnosis is easier than clinical (one-on-one) Learn how doing "Lecture-demos can increase your client base in your practice Learn how to make big money by doing hypnosis shows Learn how quickly you can get started Learn how to do skits that audiences love Learn how to negotiate for free travel expenses Learn how to make extra money at your shows Learn how to get agents to book you Learn how to do rapid inductions Learn how to identify great subjects

You can join the NGH if you're not already a member at NGH.net.

[Poodle]

You are so nice to point this out but unfortunately he has only done some videos and that doesn't count with NGH. He can join NGH after he's done with Geoff tho. :)

[VcElder]

Thanks Connie I appreciate it. I will actually check it out. June 3rd on sunday...Will you be attending? maybe we can chat online during. As for geoff Im basically sold on him. Mark Cunningham is in the running too but we'll see. I'm excited to find out when he will be doing the next
In the mean time I'll see what I can pick up from reading, videoing and practicing.

Vic

[firegold]

You are so nice to point this out but unfortunately he has only done some videos and that doesn't count with NGH. He can join NGH after he's done with Geoff tho. :)
Actually, the NGH has two levels of membership. Regular Membership and Certified Hypnotist. A Regular Member is one who's interested in hypnosis, but doesn't meet the certification and education requirements of the NGH. Certified Hypnotists are professional hypnotists who meet the NGH's certification requirements.

Joshua

[Connie]

Thanks, Joshua! That's quite true! :) I think our friend, Vic, qualifies as someone interested in hypnosis!! Quite a few of the people who show up for our local NGH chapter meetings are similarly placed. They still have tons of knowledge and things to offer the discussions.