Enneagram

[Daniel]

I searched the forum for a thread discussing enneagram, because I ran into it recently at my NLP Practioner training. One of the students claimed it was NLP. From my point of view it sounded more like putting people into categories, and ignoring our uniqueness, wich I don't think is NLP.

Is enneagram worth studying or is it rather just putting people into categories.

Oppinoens appreciated.

Kind regards

Daniel

[Poodle]

Would you please explain how this word was used. I have never found it in anything Richard Bandler has written and I also have available the New Code from John Grinder and don't see such a word. I also can't find it in Robert Dilts and Judith DeLozier's work.

Are you really sure you have it spelled correctly? It could just be someone making up a "new" word for an "old" process, if you get my point.

As for categorization, just look at the Meta Model.

[Don]

IMO, the enneagram work is simply a paradigm for understanding the way people think and function. It seems to be popular among Jungians.

As a paradigm for understanding people it is as good as any other paradigm.

The map is not the territory, but it helps you to get around. And there are lots of maps of the same territory.

[Poodle]

Thank you! I never thought to look in a dictionary or even under Carl Jung as I remember the word he used was somewhat similar but not quite the same. However, in NLP the Map IS NOT The Territory as no two human beings have the exact same "model of the world". All our "reality" is based on "our" life experiences. With great rapport we are allowed graciously to enter the other "model of the world". We EACH do not operate directly on the world. We create a map or model which we then use as a reference to determine our behavior and we respond to "our map of the world" and not to "the world" itself so to change ourselfs, we don't have to change reality, just change our map of "our reality". Does that make sense???

A. Korzybski wrote in "Science and Sanity": "A map is not the territory it represents, but if correct it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for it's usefulness."

Jung's theories were used in NLP for Parts Integration and his use of a "Meta Position" and that each "part" has a positive intention. NLP has also made great use of metaphors and symbols which apparently came from his "dream" work even though NLP has nothing to do with dreams. I personally do not use the symbology when I do parts work. Maybe I should as symbols are more the realm of the unconscious mind than the conscious.

[Stella7]

Hi All,

I spotted the word Enneagram on this thread and, as a student of the said system, decided to take a look at what was going on.

Anyway, here is some information which you may find useful, or not.

NO, the Enneagram is not NLP.

The word Enneagram is derived from two Greek root words, ennea - meaning nine, and grammos - meaning point. Therefore, the Enneagram is a a nine pointed system relating to personality typing - and, of course, it is more than that.

An oral tradition, it is believed to have originated with the Sufis, the mystical side of Islam, much like the Kabbalah is to Judaism. From there,it has been studied and developed by various people, one person being George Gurdjieff, an esoteric teacher of some note. There are two main schools of the Enneagram in the US, one which is associated with Helen Palmer, the other is associated with Riso/Hudson. My lineage comes from Helen Palmer to the UK (where I am from) via her student, Karen Webb.

Now,to the question of is it worth studying, for me the answer is yes. Why? The reasons are various. 1) it enables me to analyse and understand how I view my world, and 2) as a therapist, it enables me to analyse and understand how my clients view their world. Additionally, from a Jungian standpoint of perception is projection, I get to see my unconsicous behaviours reflected back to me which presents me with the opportunity to deal with any unresolved issues and, thus, change my behaviour. So, it can be used as a powerful tool for personal transformation.
Yes, at one level it puts people into 'boxes' but that is merely as a starting point because from there you can move way outside the box (and in so many different directions)
The Ennegram is only as simple and straightforward as you think it is.
For me it's considerably more multi faceted than that because we are not just one personality mapped on the Enneagram, we are all of them.

Its great to be able to join into this discussion especially as I think I am generally not known.
This is the first time I have posted on this part of the forum and I will be very interested to read any replies to my entry.

Aloha

Stella :D

[Poodle]

Technically correct but we know that B&G "modeled" excellence and in that excellence was the writings of Carl Jung. Jung believed that mental processes had a tendency to produce a potential reaction in the opposite direction. Jung called this "enantiadromia". It ties in with his ideas that all "parts" have a positive intention which definitely is NLP, as well as metaphors and symbols from his "dreams and fantasy". Also NLP believes that "perception is projection".

This is also why I did not recognize the word "ennegram" as Jung referred to it as enantiadromia.

I'm sure you know that NLP has been based on many, many, many people that had spectacular results so they took some from Jung. It does not mean that B&G completely believed in whole of everything Jung wrote but they did find the pieces that worked and put them into NLP. One may call a dog a rose, but it's still really just a dog.

Reference: Tools of the Spirit by Dilts and McDonald, 1997.

[Don]

Pood, I don't think enneagram=enantiadromia. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a big Jung fan), but as I understand it, the enneagram is about categorization and enantiadromia is about change.

[Docresults]

Hello All,

Enneagram is a sorting program for personality types. Corporations normally use Myers-Briggs. The LAB Profile is another from a meta-program/NLP background.

The LAB Profile predicts one's behavior based on one's use of certain types of language patterns (which reflect the thinking styles of a person and indicates their motivation and attitude). With this information you can predict job performance, you can assign tasks efficiently, and you can influence behavior. The LAB Profile is a systematic way of gathering this information about a person and it is a set of clear-cut procedures to help you utilize that person's talents.
Origins and History

The LAB Profile is based on cognitive science. It originated from research "metaprograms" done by a group of people who formed the International Training Center for NLP when it was based in San Francisco (around 1978). This group included Leslie Cameron, Brian van der Horst and some of the institute's students: Ross Steward and Rodger Bailey.



Here is something I found form an Old NLP Trainer Rex Steven Sikes...

The Enneagram, or any other personality system, Meyers Briggs etc. etc. is a set of generalizations. And if we understand the fundamental use of generalizations in NLP, (e.g. Eye Accessing Cues, Representational Systems, Meta Programs, Satir Categories etc. as well as a whole host of others noted by NLP, as well as those not noted by NLP) then we would understand the usefulness of such systems. People use generalizations to streamline - they are big chunks of info which apply to many people, but they are useful. Learning to sort by generalizations and also fill in the specific individual detail is most desirable. Because we use one doesn't mean we forsake the other. Some of the more notable best selling books and tape programs 'getting along with difficult people' etc. stereotype or generalize people into groups. The 'tank', just like Satir did with the 'blamer' or 'leveler' etc. It is useful to recognize generalizations when dealing with others (a form of calibration) but not for a moment adhere to the generalization as if it is actually true, or as if the person is permanently or immutably the label given them.


To Your Best,
Doc

"If it's to loud, you're to old."
My Grampa Vetter

[Jimr1]

Huh,lets restate that to say that The LAB Profile is and has been INAPPROPRIATELY used to predicts one's behavior based on one's use of certain types of language patterns.its was never intended to be used like that, and a certain second generation NLP trainer in in Europe have attempted to use it to help model people's skills with it..... unfortunately

Jim

[Docresults]

Huh,lets restate that to say that The LAB Profile is and has been INAPPROPRIATELY used to predicts one's behavior based on one's use of certain types of language patterns.its was never intended to be used like that, and a certain second generation NLP trainer in in Europe have attempted to use it to help model people's skills with it..... unfortunately

Jim



Jim,

The LAB Profile may have been inappropriately used to predict one's behavior and yet it is now one of the profiling types of strategies used corporately and is widely taught throughout the corporate world by people like Shelle Rose Charvet "Word's That Change Minds" author, and others. Shelle is from Canada, not sure whom you are referring to in Europe.

Jim, you've brought up an interesting point. That the LAB profile model was not meant to be used to profile personality types so as to be able to influence them through their patterns. What was the LAB profile designed to profile?

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

"If money could talk, it would say goodbye."
My Grampa Vetter

[Connie]

"If money could talk, it would say goodbye."
My Grampa Vetter

This is off topic! :) Grampa's latest quote indicates that he's operating from a scarcity mentality--what's he trying to manifest? Poverty?! He should know better than that. Three lashings with a wet noodle!

When I talk to money (say in a casino setting), I tell the "bens" (hundred dollar bills) to come join the party in my wallet.

[Poodle]

Thank you for explaining this. I found a cute site on the net and took their 50 question test. You seem to be a never ending marvel!

[Docresults]

This is off topic! :) Grampa's latest quote indicates that he's operating from a scarcity mentality--what's he trying to manifest? Poverty?! He should know better than that. Three lashings with a wet noodle!

When I talk to money (say in a casino setting), I tell the "bens" (hundred dollar bills) to come join the party in my wallet.

Are we sure he's operating from a scarcity mentality or is he observing how money acts with others. As he always says, "It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about anything. It only matters what you think about it." Actually, for me when money talks it says, "The reason I'm here is because you were born, and will always be, lucky and blessed with happiness, health, wealth and love and everything good flows and works for you constantly."

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

"You are the vibrational writer of your life and everything else plays the part you have assigned to it them!" My Grampa Vetter

P.S. wet noodles... sounds like Skip's, wet cold and delicious comment.

[skip]

Nah I agree with Connie, Grandpa got caught in scarcity mode.

But he isnt required to stay there. :)

skip

My grandpa, was grandpa Vetter's friend. And he used to say, "I wish I had as good a friend as Grandpa Vetter does."

[Terry (existing)]

Well guys, I am going to go along with Grampa, I find that money comes in regularly, and goes out just as regularly, and since I always welcome it on arrival, it seems fair that I also bid it goodbye when it departs.
Was a time when I dealt with over a million dollars a week passing through my hands, all in twenty dollar bills, and I can tell you it is dirty stuff that makes the hands dry and uncomfortable. Now I let my wife do the handling, and all I do is say "Hi" on arrival, and "Bye" on departure... I guess Grampa is just being curtious also. If money doesn't move, it has no value, so here's to the "bye" factor, or should that be spelled "buy"?:D

[Docresults]

My grandpa, was grandpa Vetter's friend. And he used to say, "I wish I had as good a friend as Grandpa Vetter does." __________________
Any proposition containing the word "is" creates a linguistic structural confusion which will eventually give birth to serious fallicies.

Now, that 'is" a true statement...

(I'm not sure the fallacies with be serious or funny. But it wasn't a difficult birth, just a linguistically confusing one. Did I mean "Skip's statement" or did I mean, "Skip's other statement" or did I mean the statement I wrote?)


To Your Best,
Doc Houston


"Breath in, breath out, repeat, etc". My Grampa Vetter

[Don]

I agree with Terry...and with some other great thinkers:

Dolly Levi ("Hello, Dolly!"): "Money is like manure: It isn't any good unless you spread it around."

Thornton Wilder ("The Matchmake"r [play on which "Hello,Dolly!" is based]): "Money, if you'll pardon the expression, is like manure. It's not worth a thing unless you spread it around encouraging young things to grow."

J. Paul Getty: "Money is like manure. You have to spread it around or it smells."

Francis Bacon: "Money is like manure, of very little use except it be spread."

[Connie]

I like Terry's reasoning, and Don's but that's not what "Grampa" said. :) Grampa said money goes bye-bye. That's ALL he said. That's not an abundance mentality, sorry! :p Or even a keep it flowing mentality. I've heard the joke before, and it means "I'll never have any money." Grampa needs to watch the secret and make one of those dollar bills with all the extra zeroes inked in.

[Don]

Merely because it wasn't included doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. I prefer to think that Grampa Vetter just assumed the reset... :)

[Connie]

I do love brilliant people. DON. :D

You're right, of course. Grampa Vetter has always been one of my favorite purveyors of wisdom around here--that's why I found the one slightly "off" remark (in my opinion) noteworthy.

[Don]

A moment of copied concepts does not make one brilliant. But I thank you for the comment.

If I show any brilliance at all, it is only because I reflect the light of those who truly shine.

[Docresults]

I like Terry's reasoning, and Don's but that's not what "Grampa" said. :) Grampa said money goes bye-bye. That's ALL he said. That's not an abundance mentality, sorry! :p Or even a keep it flowing mentality. I've heard the joke before, and it means "I'll never have any money." Grampa needs to watch the secret and make one of those dollar bills with all the extra zeroes inked in.

How about this...:D

It is all perceptual positions. And wherever you are is correct or right for you since wherever you are is perfect. Where Connie saw the comment "If money could talk, it would say goodbye." can easily be a poverty mentality. Where Terry and Don say it as one side of the coin is also correct. It could also be what it says as it leaves others and comes to Grampa Vetter, which would be an abundance mentality. It all depends on what happens in our heads after hearing the statement that determines what it is for us.

(Side note) Addressing only one polarity of a subject can be perceived as either for or against (right/wrong, correct/incorrect) something and depending on our maps/models/patterns we will assign one of those positions.

However, since the 3rd principle of the Energy Model is 'Human Beings are not containers they are conduits', everything (money included) must continue the process of hello/goodbye-flow or energy will be blocked. It depends on how one focuses and used the hello/goodbye energy that is valuable. In other words it is about enjoying the journey, "Happy with what is and eager for more".

Any time I perceive something as negative this is a great time to apply the magic question...

"If I could use this (to get what I want or move me closer), how would I?

The question moves it from a +/- position to a ->/<- position. +/- positions have the tendency to get us stuck where ->/<- positions have a tendency to give us directional headings.


I suggested my Grampa Vetter do what I do as a hobby. Get some two dollar bills and once, twice, or three times a week, write on them, "May you be blessed with Health, Wealth and Love!" And hide them in unusual places where others will find them after you are gone. i.e. Grocery Store on different items, restaurant bathrooms in the paper dispenser or the middle of the napkins on the table. As many unusual places where people doing normal everyday task might be surprised and begin to realize they were born naturally luck and blessed.

(I started out using one dollar bills, I've moved to two dollar bills, I have a desire being born inside me to be able to move up the financial abundance scale ($5, $10, $20, $50) to where I can do this joyfully with $100 bills in the near future as I can with $1 or $2.)

Life is just so darn exciting, You gotta love it.

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

"It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about anything. It only matters what you think about it." My Grampa Vetter

[Mentalius]

Daniel, as said earlier - The Enneagram has nothing to do with NLP, it´s contentbased rather than procesbased.

You must be training with "NLP-Huset" or someone trained there, to get this idea. Remember, they were the ones who translated NLP to meaning NeuroLingvistc Psychology.