Belief Change

[Daniel]

I've read in several books that it's possible to change a belief with submodalities (mapping a cross i), but my NLP teacher says that those kind of belief changes only touches the surface beliefs, and not the beliefs with root in the future, wich are a lot harder to change, and wich requires master practioner techniques or something else. I don't wan't to limit myself with my NLP teachers (limiting) beliefs, so i thought I might want to hear your oppions. Perhaps his right perhaps not.

Kind Regards

Daniel

[Simon]

Examine submodalities of one belief and start changing them, notice the driving submodalities.
Now pick something that you simply can not believe. Now apply all the "belief" submodalities. Will you start believing it?

Higher level thoughts modulate the lower level thoughts and beliefs exist at a meta level to the representations.
That is why sometimes just modifying the representations won't have effect on the belief itself. Well sometimes, each person is unique.

[skip]

Consider this for a moment.

Submodalities aren't sub.

It was a misleading labeling job, which we are now stuck with.

In order to notice and manipulate 'sub' modalities, you must be meta to the state. You are either in the state, or meta to it. And you cannot be in the state and describing or manipulating the submodalities at the same time. You must be switching in and out very fast. Right?

Knowing now that submodalities are actually meta, how does that alter your understanding of changing beliefs using "sub" modalities?

Hope that cleared things up a bit.

cheers,
skip

[Poodle]

I was going to ask "him" exactly why they got that stupid name but at the time the thought was far, far from my mind. Maybe next year! Pood :)

[Simon]

As far as I know this is quite new idea and I don't think they noticed that by "changing submodalities" you aren't exactly changing them on the submodality level, but at the meta level of awareness.

PS: Poodle, how was it? :)

[Daniel]

> Skip; I'm not sure I get your point? Are you saying that you have to be out of the state of believing something when you look at the beliefs submodalities?

> Simon I'm not sure I understand your reply.

[Daniel]

I was going to ask "him" exactly why they got that stupid name but at the time the thought was far, far from my mind. Maybe next year! Pood :)

Who?

Daniel

[Simon]

Well basically I tried to explain that it can be difficult to change belief just by changing submodalities of its representation ;)

[Poodle]

'him' = Richard Bandler

[Daniel]

> Simon ok. I guess my NLP teacher was right then.

[Merlin]

Is this self-help?
or working with others?

Did the changework get the right 'submodalities' to change?
VAKOGAd...

[Poodle]

Beliefs are changed and made all the time. People swallow placeobs and believe them to be real. Medical professionals are supposed to be credible as they have 200 years of science behind them. I always watch this certain TV news and they said so it becomes TRUTH and TRUTH and BELIEF can even come from "My neighbor used to be a nurse and she told me that___". That is what is just sooo wonderful about NLP trainings as they really do take all those stupid negative and limiting beliefs and knock them right out of your head. You learn to spot the beliefs rather quickly and you will be given the tools to deal with them but for right now you are still towards the beginning of the book with submodalities or as we like to call them metamodalities. If you do happen to land on the "driver" of those submodalities, it can be done. You trainer is not totally incorrect but you have a ways to go yet. Be patient. It's fun and exciting. Don't get overly excited about is my Trainer doing it correctly. Just wait till the end and then tell us what happened. You may even surprise yourself. Go have fun and learn! Nnnnooowwww!! Pood

[Daniel]

Poodle > Ok i might have miscommunicated. My trainer says that some beliefs are harder to change than others! That they lie deeper within or something. Which means you just can't change the submodalities.

What techniques would be required then? Or can you actually use the submodality shifts with every belief, even those you have from your childhood.

[Daniel]

Is this self-help?
or working with others?

Did the changework get the right 'submodalities' to change?
VAKOGAd...

Both.
> The last question I don't get!????

[Docresults]

Poodle > Ok i might have miscommunicated. My trainer says that some beliefs are harder to change than others! That they lie deeper within or something. Which means you just can't change the submodalities.

What techniques would be required then? Or can you actually use the submodality shifts with every belief, even those you have from your childhood.

Determine what makes up a belief (what is the structure) all beliefs shallow or deep have the same structure. From an old book I wrote years ago...

Creating a solid belief involves:
An Authoritative voice in your head speaking the belief.

Repetition

Looping around the thought

Desirability – Really want the belief.

Consistency – Imagine having the belief over time,

maybe a year or two or even longer.
“This causes that” or “this equals that” statements

Play with changing these parameters (submodalities)...

or

Meta-State it!

or

My curiosity wonders why go through all the trouble of modality (sub or meta) work when you can simply install an identity with all the changes you want.

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

"If it isn't broke, don't fix it."
My Grampa Vetter

[Merlin]

Play with changing these parameters (submodalities)...
Trial and error?

[Poodle]

Changing submodalities on self by self is seldom fruitful.

Second statement by Merlin: You HAVE TO GET THE CORRECT "DRIVER" is it A, is it V, is it K, is it O or is it G, Ad. Example: lady gets paniced when someone is late. Upon questioning the lady what's going on and how do you know when to feel this, lady responds: "I can just see it right in front of my face with blood everywhere." Easy - move the picture way, way, way out and darken the picture. Seldom if ever will you meet a person like this that just gives you the answer.

Bandler has written a good book that is usually out of print: Insiders Guide to Submodalities.

Soon you will be far enough along in class to do as Docresults wrote. Have fun and enjoy it.

[Merlin]

>Let Me Answer For Merlin

Wellll...
OK

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/Myhrrhleine2/Other/WellSaid.gif

[Poodle]

the fact that I have read so many of Merlin's posts to that same question I can pretty accurately figure out what she means. But wait, does that mean I'm Merlin's parrot when I'm Terry's Poodle. HELP!! Do I have a Master or Mythtress or do I belong to anyone, no one or everyone, someone?

[Terry (existing)]

To answer a TIC question in a serious manner, I would suggest you are part of everyone you have regular contact with. We all learn for each other as we post, even to the point of mimicking the words we have read from someone we respect. Watch of it and you will find it often. I know I note myself doing it at times, and have seen it from others who use coloquialisms that only I use because it was raised in the UK, but have spent more then half of my life in Canada were the language, though English, is not so full of those same expressions that I use so easily from memory of my education..

[Merlin]

You're the cat's meow!
<LOL>

[maxwatts]

You can do a belief change with sub-modalities and it does not require master level understanding - I personally teach it on our practitioner trainings - time line therapy is preferred over using the submodality belief change however it is totally effective and does change beliefs. Have you done the like to dislike script? there is a script for a belief change, have you seen it?

max watts
www.kanousei.co.uk (http://www.kanousei.co.uk)

[Docresults]

Trial and error?


Why trial and error? Why not fun and adventure?

Change any one parameter and it changes the belief and the strengthen of it.

I love the way a helpful post can be construed as either a trial or an error.

[Daniel]

How do you install a idendity with all the changes?

[Poodle]

Doc explained it very well. Change ONE component in that belief and you will have a different belief. What is the difference in your model of the world of a belief and an identity?