View Full Version : Dangers with hypnosis?
solaris152000
08-14-2004, 09:59 AM
What are the dangers of a newbie practising hypnosis, I never thought there was any and thats how I learned hypnotism by practising on other people... But you guys seem to suggest that it is dangerous, how?
thanks
Solaris
Merlin
08-14-2004, 10:13 AM
You suggest something about the harmlessness of cars
(I know i'm not giving specific details)
so, subject ignores cars and runs around in the street
*SPLAT*
That is just one of countless possibilities.
Hello Solaris,
There are dangers in everything that exists. A paper cup left in a stairwell is highly dangerous to a person with new shoes.
Hypnotherapy is surprisingly un-dangerous if performed by a trained and intelligent therapist. It can be very dangerous when performed by amateurs as entertainment or even by someone with the best motivation.
My advice would be to proceed at a pace with which you are happy and which does not leave you feeling as if you have fallen down a deep well. Talk to and watch other therapists at work. Take great care with your clients. Gradually, your confidence will improve and whatever dangers you perceive now will just become opportunities to change someone's life for the better.
Remember that danger is everywhere, but not all danger is bad.
Jack
Zanther
08-25-2004, 02:02 AM
What about psychological dangers if the hypnotist simply force-changes a behavior that is a symptom of a larger problem that keeps building, but now in secret. I'd say there's mental health dangers...not really any physical dangers (other than unrealistic extremes, like the cars are safe suggestion mentioned)
Zanther,
Your description of what might happen represents a 'people are broken' model, in which someone must go back and fix whats wrong, in order for people to be "well".
This concept, for psychologists, began with Freud, who no doubt modeled it after the medical model, and is largely considered not valid today.
What you did yesterday does not dictate what you do today.
skip
What about psychological dangers if the hypnotist simply force-changes a behavior that is a symptom of a larger problem that keeps building, but now in secret. I'd say there's mental health dangers...not really any physical dangers (other than unrealistic extremes, like the cars are safe suggestion mentioned)
You're assuming that a hypnotist can "force-change" a behavior.
In thousands of years of hypnotic practice, there is no evidence that a hypnotist can "force-change" any person's behavior.
Of course, you will see that on TV shows and movies, and in novels and comic books.
I would submit that fictions written by people who have not studied the subject are not based on history or fact.
Merlin
08-25-2004, 07:41 PM
>What about psychological dangers if the hypnotist simply force-changes a behavior...
Most hypnotists wouldn't know how to be dangerous, even if they wanted to. :)
>that is a symptom of a larger problem that keeps building, but now in secret.
Most hypnotists will never work in an area where that is a potential problem.
Zanther
08-25-2004, 08:41 PM
Zanther,
Your description of what might happen represents a 'people are broken' model, in which someone must go back and fix whats wrong, in order for people to be "well".
This concept, for psychologists, began with Freud, who no doubt modeled it after the medical model, and is largely considered not valid today.
What you did yesterday does not dictate what you do today.
skipIn the new model, there are no underlying issues that can be covered up? If you hate yourself and cut, can the rookie hypnotist pound the suggestion (which you want to accept) that you will not cut into your head, masking the inner hate. (Basic example and this might not be how self-hate works, but trying to see if you get what I'm saying/asking)
What's the new model? People aren't broke, what they're doing just isn't working for them?
The "what you did yesterday does not dictate what you do today" is new to me (Though familiar with the idea that what you did yesterday doesn't HAVE to dicate what you do today) ...How do you mean that idea, though? My first thought is: if you do something which makes you sad yesterday, you'll still be sad today.
PS: Not arguing the theories, they're just new to me so asking questions.
You're assuming that a hypnotist can "force-change" a behavior.
In thousands of years of hypnotic practice, there is no evidence that a hypnotist can "force-change" any person's behavior.I meant to refer to to suggestions that are accepted and taken the wrong way by a client. And a pretty well-known and respect hypnotist was telling me about a level/skill of hypnosis where the subject's behavior ARE force changed...can be used in suicide intervention.
>What about psychological dangers if the hypnotist simply force-changes a behavior...
Most hypnotists wouldn't know how to be dangerous, even if they wanted to. :)
>that is a symptom of a larger problem that keeps building, but now in secret.
Most hypnotists will never work in an area where that is a potential problem.Agreed, any well-trained intelligent ethical hypnotist will know better...I'm just thinking about the possibilities.
Terry (existing)
08-25-2004, 08:53 PM
OK let's make it simple shall we? You have just bought your first car, and you love it, but you hear what seems to be a problem with the engine. NOW, do you open up the engine to see what the problem is or not? Well, if you are well trained in this area, no problem, but if not, will you still do it? Of course not, and since the car has a value of a few hundred dollars, and the value of your mind is WHAT? Guess you don't eh? Furthermore, practising on someone else beyond your skills, is like working on a friends car when you have no idea what you are doing. Now if you wouldn't do that, what does it say about your values that you will mess about with someone elses mind without a by your leave, or any skill at all? I place a value on my mind beyond price, but I do realise that some have no thought at all about something they got for free, hence the difference with how I would treat the mind of another, and how others might do so. Terry
In the new model, there are no underlying issues that can be covered up? If you hate yourself and cut, can the rookie hypnotist pound the suggestion (which you want to accept) that you will not cut into your head, masking the inner hate. (Basic example and this might not be how self-hate works, but trying to see if you get what I'm saying/asking)
First, although people are individuals, cutting is not usually caused by self-hate. Rather, it is caused by a variety of things including that the pain caused by problems is temporarily eliminated by causing greater pain, a feeling that the world is unreal and by causing physical pain you are dealing with reality, etc.
Secondly, a severe behavior problem such as cutting is not going to be resolved by a "rookie hypnotist." He or she is not going to have the knowledge, training, or experience to be able to stop cutting, and by the time they are able to do so, they will understand the difference between a presenting problem and an underlying problem.
Third, a problem as serious as cutting is clearly an attempt by the unconscious to communicate something to the conscious. Muting one form of communication will result in different communication styles. That is, the communication will manifest in another fashion.
Finally, a cutter is a danger to himself or herself. It would be the responsibility of a hypnotist as a paraprofessional to report such behavior to authorities (in an adult; to parents if a child) so the person could be observed and prevented from further physical self-abuse. The hypnotist could then work with the authorities and under the authority of a licensed professional such as a psychiatrist or psychotherapist.
What's the new model? People aren't broke, what they're doing just isn't working for them?
The new model is simply that people do the best they can with the tools and knowledge they have. If the tools and knowledge result in unwanted behavior, a hypnotherapist can quickly and easily help a person develop the tools and knowledge in a way which can be used.
The "what you did yesterday does not dictate what you do today" is new to me (Though familiar with the idea that what you did yesterday doesn't HAVE to dicate what you do today) ...How do you mean that idea, though? My first thought is: if you do something which makes you sad yesterday, you'll still be sad today.
Every day is fresh and new. You are deciding to remain, in this example, sad. There is no reason to do so. Hypnotherapy can help you realize this AND use the energy previously directed toward sadness for more desired behaviors.
PS: Not arguing the theories, they're just new to me so asking questions.
I meant to refer to to suggestions that are accepted and taken the wrong way by a client. And a pretty well-known and respect hypnotist was telling me about a level/skill of hypnosis where the subject's behavior ARE force changed...can be used in suicide intervention.
Nope. No force is used. Rather, the client is quickly allowed to realize that the proposed behavior, suicide, solves nothing, and gives the client alternate possibilities.
Is it possible that a client will take something the wrong way? There is a long answer for that, however it can happen due to a misundertanding on the part of the hypnotist.
But let me ask you this. If you bought a new car and it didn't work right, wouldn't you take it back and ask for it to be fixed? Of course you would! So if you seek to change a behavior, and the hypnotherapy doesn't get the desired results, wouldn't you tell the hypnotist that the therapy wasn't effective? Of course you would...or would you?
Respectfully, you seem to still be working from the paradigm of "me broke--you fix." Hypnotherapy is not about the hypnotist fixing a broken person. Rather, it is about people working together to create a change. It's a partnership. If something isn't working the way you desire, you should talk about it and change your direction.
Agreed, any well-trained intelligent ethical hypnotist will know better...I'm just thinking about the possibilities.
You're looking, however, at the hypnotist, and not at the client and the way the mind works. They're not separate. They work in a holistic way to create desired change.
Zanther
08-27-2004, 09:52 PM
practising on someone else beyond your skills, is like working on a friends car when you have no idea what you are doing. Now if you wouldn't do that, what does it say about your values
The way I was I thinking about it in my mind is if some stupid AND rookie hypnotist tried doing hypnotherapy on an unsuspecting willing and suggestive person. I was trying to think of cases, even if extreme, where it might be dangerous.
I give, though!
Zanther
08-27-2004, 10:01 PM
Done
Just to finish up.
According to this new hypnotic technique (I can email you hypnotist's name), it doesn't matter whether he wants to change or not. It's happening. Examples: Pedophiles.
On feelings carrying over: If friend dies today and I get sad. I can still wake up the next day in tears and feeling sad, from moment I regain awakeness, before even opening my eyes. Why does it matter that a new day has started or not? Only way I can see this making sense if if you also subscribed to the theory that you create emotions and if you can chose to be sad or not, but in that case friend dying also should not affect your state one hour later.
And what about people who cut as a form of self-punishment...self-hate?
I don't want to be held back my limiting beliefs, but I gotta make sure I agree with new ones before taking them on...so just exploring them a bit.
Thanks Don
Z
Terry (existing)
08-28-2004, 07:25 AM
Again, let's make it so simple nobody can missunderstand, and remember, any unskilled person, can put another in the trance state were they are suggestible......
Your friend has a fear of drowning, and never goes swimming.
The summer is hot, and they wish that they could swim, something they have never learned because of their fear.....
You decide to help your friend overcome that fear, and while they are in the trance state, you offer them certain suggestions that are intended to overcome the fear, and are successful..........
Next day, full of confidence, they jump in the lake, and drown.....
You see, you forgot that overcoming the fear was only a part of the problem, they still need to learn to swim........
A simple example as I said, and one you may laugh at due to it's symplicity, but in fact such a case did occur many years ago with a newly married couple were the husband decided to help his wife enjoy their honeymoon by relieving her if the fear of swimming, and she decided to prove him successful.....
Now I have made the first suggestion, perhaps some of you can expand on the idea and use your own imaginations to offer other scenarios eh? Terry
Zanther,
Lets put it this way:
When I was in college, about a million years ago, I, and some friends, were participating in some recreational chemicals. I had learned, from a friend, something, that I realized was a hypnotic induction technique, that was disguised as a "fun thing to do" while stoned.
So I 'performed' this on a guy, and had him do a few things, nothing serious or demeaning. And I placed a post hypnotic suggestion, that he would forget having been hypnotized, but that he would be very thirsty, and insist on a glass of water, in a glass glass. That on taking his first swallow, he would realize that I had hypnotized him, and know that I had instructed him to drink the water, and remember everything.
Well it worked perfectly and we were all having a great laugh, observing him follow my instructions exactly.
Then he took the drink, and realization dawned.
Abreaction, is a mild word for what happened next.
Suffice to say, he found it very disturbing that he had been 'controlled' to that degree, and no amount of convincing on my, or others part, would convince him that there wasnt still some other 'command' that he was supposed to now be acting out.
It was very disturbing to him that I had violated him in that way, and he was very paranoid that there was still some shoe to drop. And any effort on my part to reassure him was viewed as more attempt to control him. He never spoke to me again.
What started out as a neat 'parlor trick', entertainment for all, cost me a good friend.
Anything can be dangerous, anything at all.
It is not always obvious how something can be dangerous.
People reguard their mind, and their personal sanctity, very jealously.
skip
Merely because somebody claims something is "happening" doesn't mean it is. Where is this hypnotist's documented evidence?
There are events and our responses to the events. Chances are you've been to a movie and felt very sad and sorry over what you saw. That's a fiction. It didn't happen. It didn't involve the people on the screen. Yet you felt sad. That means you can feel emotions over something that has never happened. The response is what you create based on your experience of the events.
That means it is possible to separate events from the response to the events. Hypnotherapists do this every day. Our minds do this every day. It's a healing process (see the book, How to Survive the Loss of a Love). With hypnosis and other techniques such as TLT, you can quickly learn to keep what was great before the event, and not feel the controlling sadness now.
In my experience, self-hate is never the cause of cutting. Self-hate is a symptom of the root cause, which is also the cause of the cutting. So the question is, what is the root cause? People don't wake up in the morning going, "I hate myself, I think I'll cut or burn myself." Rather, they have reasons for self-hate and cutting.
I don't blame you for wanting to determine what you want to be. That's a good thing! But because our subconscious is, well, subconscious, our conscious minds are usually not aware of everything going on in there. That's why it's good to deal with issues such as these with the help of a trained councellor. Unfortunately, the internet is not really an appropriate replacement for such a person.
Zanther
08-29-2004, 03:00 AM
I don't blame you for wanting to determine what you want to be. That's a good thing! But because our subconscious is, well, subconscious, our conscious minds are usually not aware of everything going on in there. That's why it's good to deal with issues such as these with the help of a trained councellor. Unfortunately, the internet is not really an appropriate replacement for such a person.
I'm not trying to change who I am here...just discussing the topic and seeing if it's a belief I want to take on
Lo Mein
08-29-2004, 05:09 PM
Skip,
Maybe I missed the point, but that story was funny as hell! I think the thing that you left out that was relevant was whether the guy agreed to be hypnotized or not. If he did, it was not your actions that made him feel the way he did, but his own. He agreed to be hypnotized as a "parlor trick" and should have been accepting of the consequences. The ONLY reason he would have to be upset, is if you put him under without his consent. The story would be analogous to a volunteer at a stage hypnosis show being upset because of the post hypnotic suggestion the hypnotist placed for him to cluck like a chicken at the conclusion of the show when the hypnotist said the word "fair". Amusing to us, and how can the participant be upset? He agreed to be in the show.
Perhaps your "friend" should learn to take responsibility for his own actions.
j0hnny#
08-30-2004, 04:21 AM
So I 'performed' this on a guy, and had him do a few things, nothing serious or demeaning. And I placed a post hypnotic suggestion, that he would forget having been hypnotized, but that he would be very thirsty, and insist on a glass of water, in a glass glass. That on taking his first swallow, he would realize that I had hypnotized him, and know that I had instructed him to drink the water, and remember everything.
Dude, you should have instructed him to take it in the spirit of good humour man, then it might just have been 'trippy'. hindsight, sheesh....
PaNzEr
08-30-2004, 07:39 AM
im curious what was this method you used?...
you said it was fun. how could this be? im just curious, if you think im trying to get info out of you so i can use it to be dangerous, then dont go into detail. i just find this story pretty funny (no offense it sucks your friend had to be so pissed about it)
p.s this might sound stupid but take into consideration i am new to all this...
Ann Marie Harrison
08-30-2004, 08:50 AM
No Hypnotherapist can make someone do anything! People can lie, make stuff up, anything under hypnosis.
www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com (http://www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com)
I did it without his conscious consent.
But that beggs the question.
The question is whether or not hypnosis can be dangerous.
Conscent or no conscent, this fellow might have abreacted in much the same way.
Food for thought.
skip
In hindsight there are lots of things I might have done differently, including securing his consent.
skip
I am not sure I understand your question.
How could this be done, or how could this be fun?
skip
Zanther
08-30-2004, 02:51 PM
No Hypnotherapist can make someone do anything! People can lie, make stuff up, anything under hypnosis.
Mark Cunningham, Level 03 Hypnosis.
I don't want to go into it, but word is he can.
Possible applications: suicidal people or pedophiles
Zanther
08-30-2004, 03:07 PM
What are the dangers of a newbie practising hypnosis, I never thought there was any and thats how I learned hypnotism by practising on other people... But you guys seem to suggest that it is dangerous, how?
Another mental danger I thought of...if doing things like age regression, there's the danger of creating false/harmful memories. If you're doing something like this, make sure you learn how to do it right and understand & follow the guidelines.
If done right there really shouldn't be any danger, but anytime you read about age regression, they stress the warning about it...probably b/c it does happen sometimes.
Zanther,
I know Mark.
I also know if you said "level three hypnotist" to Mark, you would get a blank stare.
Major Mark is skilled, and he regularly stretches the boundries of hypnosis. But while he can covertly hypnotize people, he cannot hypnotize someone who is not cooperating.
It might be well for you to understand, and make the distinction, between unconscious cooperation, and consciously informed consent.
You can secure unconscious cooperation (consent) without informing the client consciously what you are up to, and thereby having no conscious consent. In this case hypnosis would be a possible outcome. Hypnotizing someone without their conscious knoweledge is easy.
You can conversely have conscious, informed consent and not be able to secure unconscious cooperation. In this case there would be no hypnosis. Hypnotizing someone without their unconscious cooperation is impossible.
Does that clear up anything for you?
skip
Merlin
08-30-2004, 09:11 PM
There are *many* possible dangers to hypnosis.
Why would a skilled hypnotist want to go into all the details of how-to?
Zanther
08-30-2004, 11:08 PM
There are *many* possible dangers to hypnosis.
Why would a skilled hypnotist want to go into all the details of how-to?
*Shrug* No details...just contemplating the original question
Merlin
08-31-2004, 07:50 PM
Zanther,
Most newbies won't ever encounter the possible dangers.
They'd have to be doing more advanced techniques which they normally don't have the skill for. :)
Just be responsible.
Hypnotist
02-22-2006, 11:32 AM
I know Mark.
I also know if you said "level three hypnotist" to Mark, you would get a blank stare.You would certainly get a blank stare from him since you just made that term up. If you instead said Level 3 Hypnosis, though, he would completely understand because that's a term he created.
While I'm sure you've met and conversed with him, I don't think that's enough to be able to know what his response would be.
While the dangers from newbie hypnotists are limited, there is the ability of spontaneous regressions, revival of memories that they won't know how to deal with. The person comes out of trance and is now a mess. A newbie hypnosis might also be able to guide a trusting "subject" into thinking he or she is in a different situation that he really is (no need to go further into that one here).
In general with hypnosis one cannot force, but there are various kinds of trickeries out there.