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View Full Version : Forgetting, PTSD, Reconsolidation, Drugs


Don
03-20-2007, 01:55 PM
We often get people asking if we can use hypnosis to help them forget something in their past.

People here explain that while it could be done it would be unwise. The reason for this is primarily two-fold. First, it would eliminate the lesson learned from the unwanted memory and leave a person open to letting the same type of event happen again. Second, the person's life since the time of the event has been influenced by that event and removing the memory of it would leave major holes in thinking and even personality.

Now, according to an article on ABC news
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2964509&page=1
there may be drugs that can achieve this goal.

The basic concept, as I understand the presentation, is this:

Powerful events that stick in our memory are a combination of the event and an excess of stress hormones, especially adrenaline. That's why we're more likely to remember what we were doing on the September 11 of the attacks on the U.S. than, say, August 11.

According to the scientists quoted, there is a period of time between the event and the retention of the event called "consolidation." If that consolidation period is united with excess adrenaline, the result can be PTSD. However, certain drugs given during the consolidation period can virtually prevent the memory from being retained, thus eliminating the potential PTSD.

More controversial, however, is the concepts of doing this work during "reconsolidation." This is a period much later than the event when recall of the event results in that increased adrenalin flow. This state can be achieved during psychotherapy and, it is believed, certain drugs can be given which literally will break the power of the memory/hormone link, causing the event to be forgotten. This, supporters believe, would end the PTSD.

Personally, I find this entire concept horrendous. It wouldn't get rid of PTSD, just one particular trigger. IMO it would unleash a potential time-bomb, and explosion that could harm the sufferer or those around him or her when some new event combined with stress hormones triggers PTSD again. It would keep the victim in therapy, well, forever.

However, it would allow us to tell people that they could go to a psychiatrist, request therapy to remember the event and all of the emotions associated with it (reconsolidation) and then receive an injection of propranolol which theoretically will cause the memory to vanish.

Comments?

Connie
03-20-2007, 02:46 PM
Thought provoking, Don! The idea that drugs can mess up memory/thinking processes is not a new concept--but having it specifically applied for that purpose... My gut reaction is similar to yours. I don't like it. I had a college professor (a million moons ago) who suggested to me that I should take recreational mind-altering drugs for the expansion of my "narrow" mind. I declined and said to him: "I like my mind the way it is!"

I do think memories and the learning we get from our past experiences is essential to who we ARE. I wouldn't want mine erased, even the worst ones. Not ever.

Terry (existing)
03-20-2007, 04:07 PM
What others do is on their concience not mine. "To thine own self be true."
You want it, go get it, but not from me. I know better, and I care more..
How much do you bet, that sometime in the near future, you will get a request from some lazy idiot asking for full information online so they don't need to dig to find out how to get that drug? Do em a favour and tell them to dig. They might just grow up in the interval...:)

Charlie
03-20-2007, 04:43 PM
..... I had a college professor (a million moons ago) who suggested to me that I should take recreational mind-altering drugs for the expansion of my "narrow" mind........

Was his name Jack, by any chance?

;)

As for propranolol, I've heard it's popular to reduce stage fright.

And as for post-iraq PTSD..... perhaps instead of giving pills to soldiers, that republican poiticians should just leave the middle east alone, and go to their local church more regularly to contemplate their follies.

Just a thought.

Poodle
03-20-2007, 05:56 PM
If events have no feelings attached to them, they cannot bother a person. As for stage fright they used to use a beta blocker which is a drug for hypertension.

Third falacy for me at least on 9/11 was when the alarm clock went off Peter Jennings was on the air. Definitely not a stressor - just unusual.

Nam was bad but apparently this is worse as no tour of duty is over. Also unmentioned are the "rules of engagement" which sound similar to Nam. Iraqi fires weapon at GI, drops weapon and runs across the street. GI CANNOT shoot Iraqi that just tried to kill him. This is the US Government at work. We have fear mongering at it's worst. However, on a brighter note it seems that Progesteren will be great at healing brain damages.

Lastly, I really think any of us would help anyone that showed up with PSTD for free but how would they know that as the VA is in shambles too. Maybe the Guilds should take out TV ads or newspaper ads. :confused:

pmdigi
03-20-2007, 11:02 PM
Why - if the traumatic memory is removed from consciousness with hypnosis - wouldn't the unconscious/subconscious still remember it anyway along with all the appropriate learnings? (just wondering)

Terry (existing)
03-21-2007, 09:44 AM
Why - if the traumatic memory is removed from consciousness with hypnosis - wouldn't the unconscious/subconscious still remember it anyway along with all the appropriate learnings? (just wondering) It does, hence the dangers involved in doing this.

pmdigi
03-23-2007, 09:54 AM
"It does, hence the dangers involved in doing this." Terry - Please explain, - Thanks!

Terry (existing)
03-23-2007, 11:29 AM
"It does, hence the dangers involved in doing this." Terry - Please explain, - Thanks! OK, well I remove the concious memory of something that is making you feel uncomfortable, so you are just fine right? Wrong, from now on, that buried memory is likely to surface in some other direction, not easily recognised as the original problem, and therefore harder to deal with.
Rather like a cancer which goes into regression. You had cancer, the symptoms of cancer no longer exist, so you appear to be fine, yet the cancer is only in remission, and can return at any time in any place, not nescessarily were it originally was. Does that help? Does it show why only the most skilled practitioners should be allowed access to your mind? Not only the most skilled, but also so most experienced, and most caring. Finding a good practitioner of hypnosis is harder than finding a good doctor, plus a good surgeon, plus a good hospital in which to get operated on..:)
Regression is only one tool among many, and each therapist must decide when it should be used. In some cases it is important, and in others it is like taking a sledge hammer to kill a fly, it just won't work,but can do harm.
No memory is ever lost, just buried, and the way it is buried is as important as any other part of therapy. Sometimes you can just put a rock on top of it and it will be fine. Sometimes it needs the exposure of regression. Other times, a lawn of nice grass can cover a multitude of garbage that needed burying. the good therapist in face to face will be able to decide what needs what, and how just by talking to the client. Well, I can, so I presume it applies to all experience practitioners...

Poodle
03-23-2007, 11:55 AM
When I say difficult I mean difficult. I had to build an alternate reality that would be "normal" for this client while removing all traces of the horrendous event. In this case, there was "no learning" involved for my client. It took forever to recapture all the time involved and every minute thing that happened during that time up to and including what foods were eaten and when to brush teeth to what was on TV and who said what to whom when. Finally after the SC gave me all the information needed, I was able to build an alternate reality just by substituting "normal" events for those that were experienced that were not "normal". Then I would test and test and test my work in and out of trance over and over and over. I hope I am never presented with anything like that again in my life. The most the client knows is that client was here for allergies -- no more. I used total amnesia for the remainder. A lovely trick I learned from Erickson.

Would I do it again? In that particular situation yes, but not for any other.