Paranormal and hypnosis

[solaris152000]

Just wondering how many people here belive in pycics and that they can be helped with hypnosis, or that we have past lifes and such...

Personally I strongly disagree but am willing to look at others opinions.

[TeeJay]

You are asking three questions, not one.
PSI is something that can be produced under proper testing, and has been. It is therefor provable, and not dependant on faith alone.Psychics therefor are possible, and we may all be psychic.

Reincarnation on the other hand is a religious belief and dependant on faith alone. Pick your own choice, and leave it to others to make theirs.....
As to if hypnosis can be of help. In the area of research into PSI the answer is a definite yes. Can it reproduce results which represent Past Lives? Yes it can, but try proving it as fact and not imagination and you run into trouble.
In the cases you pose, Hypnosis can increase our existing abilities, as it can in many cases, but has no ability to PROVE anything. My own tests proved something to me, but that is faith dependant of what I observed, so it is neither faith nor fact.

[solaris152000]

Just because you say PSI has been proven doesn't make it so, it has yet to be reconised.

[TeeJay]

When someone has the courtesy to reply to a post you make, and do so in depth, and based on experience as is proper, kindly have the courtesy to at least read throughly before jumping to a reply not based on what was said.....If I say I proved something to my own satisfaction, that naturally suggests that it has not yet been accepted by the general public. Terry

[solaris152000]

You said it can be produced under the proper testings. Please tell me how because I would love to know.

[Merlin]

>Please tell me how because I would love to know...

So far, all you have done is argue your own belief system and tell people they are wrong.

[solaris152000]

They are... but lets pretend they aren't. How would you be able to prove PSI .

[skip]

Now this is an excellent way to encourage people to share their knoweledge with you.

NOT!

skip

[TeeJay]

Ah well, I suppose his parent love him...On the other hand, he is on my you know what list (G) Terry

[Don]

They are... but lets pretend they aren't. How would you be able to prove PSI .

This is one of the traps debunkers like to use. No matter what you do to prove that PSI exists will never satisfy a debunker.

This is because debunkers come up with a fantasy of what they think PSI should create, and if you can't satisfy the fantasy, PSI doesn't exist.

Typical examples: "If you're psychic, why aren't you rich?" or "If you're psychic, why didn't you warn people about the earthquake?"

In both cases, the debunker has come up with a definition of what PSI is and how it should work. Even though PSI doesn't work that way, the debunkers present a belief system and paradigm which they demand psychics exhibit or they (the debunkers) will not admit the existance of PSI.

It's a waste of time playing the debunkers' games, and I would urge people not to even bother.

When you experience PSI you'll know. As long as a person is a debunker they will always come up with a bizarre excuse to explain it away. Once, on TV, I heard the "Amazing Randi" say that the reason Geller was able to start a clock was because the person who had the clock simply didn't notice that sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. For some reason, however, Randi forgot to mention that the person who claimed this happened also stated that the clock was "missing internal parts."

I guess all those gears in the clock that were missing were just extra and unneeded.

[solaris152000]

I apologise for my negative atitude towards PSI and such, its just that when you see psycic adverts (including lolliedotcom) They charge $3.50 per minute or an outragerous price like that, and then if you no anything about cold reading you find that they can't tell you anything... maybe I am wrong, so I would love to hear some more examples of PSI and hypnosis.

[skip]

Solaris,

I think it boils down to what PSI might and might not be.

Consider this if you will.

Your conscious mind can handle seven plus or minus two bits of information at a time. Thats all. That means that at any time you are conscious of only the visual, auditory, kinesthetic, and what, two to six more things. Thats not very much when you consider all that is going on around you.

Now you can be aware (outside of conscious) unconsciously, of more. And these things do influence how you behave, but you have no conscious perception of them. They can be called into consciousness and this is what hypnotists do when they use 'hypnotic recall' to help people find lost keys, or remember events that were 'frogotten'.

Then there is all the stuff that is going on that you werent even aware of. Like how many people in your home town did you 'hear' making love last night? You know they did, dont you, but how many of them were you even unonsciously aware of, much less consciously? Unless you were peeping, or participating, probably none huh.

Now as a scientist, if you had such a small sampling, this seven plus or minus two, compared to the vast amount of information thats out there, you would say that you didnt have a valid sample to form a conclusion, wouldnt you?

But since thats ALL you have, you not only form a conclusion, but you assume it is true. (I do too, we all do) Intellectually I know it isnt enough, but behaviorally I operate as if it is true, we all do, we have no other choice.

What if PSI was the ability to tap into just a bit more than the seven plus or minus two? That could mean that you were operating on as much as twenty percent 'more' information than everyone else, wouldnt it. That would be pretty significant, wouldnt it?

Or what, as I suspect, if there was an ability to tap into what you are aware of? To be able to bring into consciousness some way, say a feeling, or an intuition, some of those things that are outside of most peoples awareness.

At first you would go around assuming everyone could do this. And gradually you would come to realize that you are getting information that others simply dont get. At first they think everyone can do it, then they think something is wrong with them, and hide it. Most 'real' psychics report this. If you think about it, it is how you would react.

So what if there is all this information out there, and some people are able to tap into a bit more than others? Thats paranormal isnt it? But it is no more paranormal than Lance Armstrong being able to win 7 tours in a row, is it?

think about it that way, for a bit,

skip

[Merlin]

>They charge $3.50 per minute or an outragerous price...

Hmmm... $3.50 times 60minutes equals $210/hr.
I know a lot of skill charging more.
NeLPers, computer contractors, almost any engineering subcontractor, actors, even hypnotists...
Now that I think about it $3.50/minute is rather cheap.

[solaris152000]

I belive what you say skip, but I mean I don't be;ive in laws of physics breaking stuff. I personally belive that the unconcious mind knows alot and that we dont tap into it. But over the phone with some you have never met or you dont know anyone who has met them then, I dont belive so much information ie. relative names and D.O.B. can be communicated through voice pattern alone.

[Merlin]

There is a saying worth learning

What the mind expects to happen, it will o its best to manifest.

>laws of physics breaking stuff...

Laws of physics once said the sound barrier could not be broken.
There are many other examples.
The 'laws of physics' are generalisations, nothing more.

Think of the 'laws' as this works and I don't yet have a better model.

[j0hnny#]

IF you chose to write that post you broke a law of physics.... but maybe you didnae choose, though I doubt you will be happy enough to say you didn't... anyway.... either reply or don't reply to this message..

[solaris152000]

??? Have you been to a pysics class recentley??? Anyway how could PSI come around. I can see that having a larger proporation of information availiable from the unconcious mind to the concious mind, this would produce PSI like effects but that isn't PSI... is it?

[Sakash]

Hello,

In 1864 James Clerk Maxwell used math to predict the existence of radio waves. Many scientists couldn't yet measure such energy and therefore didn't accept the idea. Some even called him a loon. There are many energies we have yet to "officially" discover, but that doesn't discredit their existence.

If you accept the India's model of cycles of time called Yugas, we are barely even beginning to understand how physics works let alone subtle psychic energies. We're just cracking the surface.

Who knows, in a 1000 years time the stuff we are debating may become commonplace in everyday life.

Sincerely,
Sakash

[j0hnny#]

[QUOTE=solaris152000]??? Have you been to a pysics class recentley???QUOTE]

Dude, where have you been in those physics classes? Physics doesn't allow for choice in the universe.... physics = science of physical world.... no room for will's in the physical world....

[ensentium]

I belive what you say skip, but I mean I don't be;ive in laws of physics breaking stuff. I personally belive that the unconcious mind knows alot and that we dont tap into it. But over the phone with some you have never met or you dont know anyone who has met them then, I dont belive so much information ie. relative names and D.O.B. can be communicated through voice pattern alone.Correct me if I'm wrong here but isn't voice recognition technology as valid as fingerprints? That is to say, we each have our own voice. Consciously they may sound the same, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're all unique.

My point? It's simple. If you believe that there's a lot that we don't tap into, then wouldn't you agree that identification through a voice by tapping into the "void," per se, is possible? I don't understand why you believe one "unbelievable" thing, and not another.

Granted, a lot of so called psychics are frauds. Especially ones over the phone and I'm not here to say something rediculous like all "psychics" are what they claim to be. But either you're open minded about things that are "beyond" or you don't.

You can't have both.

[ensentium]

edit: But either you're open minded about things that are "beyond" or you're not.

Would be nice to be able to edit your own posts in this forum so you don't have to post twice.

[j0hnny#]

BTw essentium - your link is not working - or at least I tried it and got 'invalid syntax error' page

[ensentium]

BTw essentium - your link is not working - or at least I tried it and got 'invalid syntax error' pageEither you're not running IE or you don't have mirc installed. :)

[j0hnny#]

yeh, like a lot of people i'm running IE and have not much of a clue what mirc is (yet)? so what's the deal... you got to join a cult to get access to your pages or whit?

[ensentium]

yeh, like a lot of people i'm running IE and have not much of a clue what mirc is (yet)? so what's the deal... you got to join a cult to get access to your pages or whit?Haha no, it's not a page. It's a link to a chat channel on IRC - EFnet. I'll fix the signature to clarify so people in the future won't think I'm a cult leader or something...

www.mirc.com (http://www.mirc.com)

[j0hnny#]

ok, fair enough.... though that mirc site is blocked by the university network censorship program.... hmmmm.. oh well.. will check it out when I get home

[skip]

Hi Solaris,

Im putting this here because it seemed like it would fit better than just under where you asked the question, "Where have you been in physics class...?"

The question is where have you been?

Did you know that photons are affected just by being observed?

Did you know that in many situations all sub atomic particals will change when one of them is changed?

Have you studied the experiment that was done in Texas where people 'influenced' just by will, the output of random number generators, the little software codes, held in zillions of on/off switches that make up binary code, that make gaming unpredictable?

Where were you when the holographic nature of the universe has been discussed?

Where were you when the nonlinear properties of time were taught?

Solaris, Im not arguing for PSI, because I dont necessarily believe in paranormal. I do believe in supranormal.

Consider this:

Right now right this minute, radio waves, television transmissions, mirowave transmissions, and who knows what else, are going thru your body. They are carrying information, arent they? BUT you dont 'hear it' do you? It takes a special device to enable you to 'hear it', like a radio, or a tv, or a cell phone.

Do you for a moment believe that is all the communication, that is going thru your body? Have you ever had the experience of knowing someone just entered the room, and you know who it is, and you didnt see them or hear them, you just knew. How did you know? Have you ever had the experience of knowing what someone was going to say, or do, and you had no reasonable explanation as to how you knew?

I believe we are the recipient of vastly more information that we are either conscious of, or aware of. I believe that we sometimes, in certain 'states' of mind, tune in, even if just briefly, to some of that which we dont normally get. Many people call it intuition, or inspiration. I call it communication. And I am convinced that all of us can "hear" what any of us can. Since we can all do it, it isnt paranormal, but since we cannot all yet do it, it IS a yet to be mastered skill.

As far as I am concerned you can spend $40 US with Kenton Kneppler and get his book "Cold Reading" and set yourself up as a convincing psychic. And a lot of people will believe in you, and you would be a fraud, unless you just did it as parlor tricks or part of your professional mentalism act.

But there ARE people who do consistantly 'hear' that which others of us do not. That doesnt make them frauds. And just because they havent 'mastered', this which few naturally/accidentlally can do, so that it can be done to this or that specification, doesnt mean it isnt genuine.

Psychic abilility is both consistant with physics as we currently understand it, AND it is consistant with human experience.

It isnt paranormal, it just means that curently only a few can play at that level, sort of like Michael Jordon.

cheers,

skip

[Landy]

Reincarnation...is a religious belief and dependant on faith alone.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with this one. You don't need faith and religeon to believe in something such as past lives. You could have a belief that as we are all made of energy, this energy has the potential to pass into other things once you are gone. This is not religeous or a faith. But a belief.

I'm not 100% convinced that people DO have past lives, but I have an open mind, even though I am rather un-religeous I wil lstill hold out that in all of the chances, there could be something that we would consider a "god".

[j0hnny#]

If belief = unprovable then to hold it is to hold it faithfully so.

belief in reincarnation is unprovable

therefore

belief in reincarnation is held only faithfully so.

[Landy]

There is a big difference between belief and faith. You can believe in something without it being at all religeous.

I believe that there IS life on other planets that IS intelligent, I cannot agree that I believe that they HAVE visited us, but I find it probable that what happened on our planet also happened on more then one other in the Universe.

[j0hnny#]

So what is the big difference? You seem to be equating faith with religious belief. Religious beliefs are faithful i.e. have a large element of trust involved with them... but what belief doesn't? In fact all beliefs are taken on trust. Faith is part and parcel of belief. Faith = trusting belief, and all beliefs = trusted. Who ever had a belief they didn't trust? Who didn't have faith - ever?


Faith = the way of the subjective being.... ultimately - it has to be....

[Landy]

You've lost me now. Its not that hard though.

Ok, I probably shouldn't have said BIG difference, because there isn't but there is a difference.

I was merely stating that I don't believe that you have to be religeous to believe in past lives. Which I would say is fact.

Believing in reincarnation from the religoues point of view is different, its part and parcel of the religeon you practise.

[j0hnny#]

Could well be right about that.... if you identify religiousness with the religions there are currently on offer... this is probably the wrong place to be discussing the nature of religion though, but it seems to me the defining characterisitc of any religious tradition is the element of faith, coupled with a large following and some kind of moral code.... so I guess you could believe in reincarnation without being religious... I think Neitzsche did in some sense.... and he was pretty anti-religious.. though eternal return is probably not what you have in mind....
Still what would be the point in believing you had a past life if the belief has no determinate function in your life.... of course it could function for a particular purpose at a particular time but then, if not in the wider context of your life for what real purpose?

[Landy]

I cannot comment on the point of discovering if you had a past life or not. Just that I was merely making the point I previously stated.

It does work one way, but not the other. Like, if you believe in a particular religeon then faith is a very strong part of it, due to lack of facts but you can have faith without having religeon.

Like, you can have light without burning a candle, but you can't have a burning candle without light. (don't try and argue that you can because thats not the point I'm trying to make, I know you could heat the candle without creating light thus burning it but thats going off the subject a little ;) )

[j0hnny#]

lol:cool:


So what are the facts then.... and how are they established?

[Landy]

By facts I meant things such as Jesus being nailed to a cross and things like that. Mainly things we cannot prove as they "happened" so long ago.

I'm going to stop now though as its getting too into religeon and I never intended to offend anyone so I'll stop before I start.

[j0hnny#]

How do you prove that the world didn't come into existence 30 secs ago with all the memory and thought patterns installed to make you believe it had been around at least as long as you? I take it you think that our earlier typing and responses are facts? So why are they facts and others not?

Landy, dude, no one needs to get offended - we're only discussing the concept of faith (as trust) here and what counts as a fact, which needn't have anything to do with religion.

[skip]

Landy,

Faith is a meta state.

It is a belief about belief.

When you meta state faith you get faith about faith, fanaticism.

Read "Science and Sanity" Krozybski which was the basis for NLP early studies by Batson, Bandler, and Grinder.

skip

just to clarify

[TeeJay]

Landry, you really should be sure that you understand the meaning of words you STRONGY disagree with, before jumping into print and them disagreeing with you own statements. It would seem from your posts, that "Religion" and "Faith" to you mean the same thing......FAITH is any belief held without means of proof existing......If I believe that Yuri Geller can bend spoons by the power of his mind alone, that is at present "faith" since nobody has proved it to me, yet it is NOT a religious belief is it? You believe in little green men from outer space who visit us regularly, yet you can't prove this, so it is a belief held on faith alone, but certainly not a religious belief, unless you think the these little green men are Gods........Do you? Terry......

[Landy]

Did you actually read anything I wrote as you just misquoted me on all of it.

First off, I didn't say that Religeon and Faith are the same thing, what I actually said was "but you can have faith without having religeon."

And as for you stating that I said that I believe that "little green men visit us regularly" I actually said "I believe that there IS life on other planets that IS intelligent, I cannot agree that I believe that they HAVE visited us, but I find it probable that what happened on our planet also happened on more then one other in the Universe.".

[Terry (existing)]

Actually, I have both the education, and the courtesy to read any post with care before replying. I cannot however misquote you if I am not quoting you in the first place. I did indeed quote you in a previous post, but in this last one, I was providing examples of faith and was therefor not in error as you suggest. Now it seems to me, that to get the maximum benifit from active membership on this board, or on any other board, one needs to read with care, and reply with that same care. Naturally one does also need to have an understanding of words and their meanings, but it is assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that anyone in a civilized country has been educated to that level.....I suppose the problem now is, that we are so used to getting everything in a hurrry, that we have stopped the thinking process in favour of the instant rush syndrome.. Terry

[PaNzEr]

lets say i see a professional hypnotherapist, one who knows what hypnosis really is, could he make me develop telekinesis faster than practising it for a year? even if conciously i believe it is possible, i could never subconciously believe it. could hypnosis help with things like psi as well>?

[Ann Marie Harrison]

Wow, what an interesting thread. I have carried out Past life regressions with people who have religious belief and those who have not. It has been enjoyable for both but nothing really exciting came of it. The common theme that tends to run with people who have done this (in my experience) say that no matter how they try to change things when they are under hypnosis (tho a different technique to hypnosis is used) they can't.

www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com (http://www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com)

[Terry (existing)]

Wow, what an interesting thread. I have carried out Past life regressions with people who have religious belief and those who have not. It has been enjoyable for both but nothing really exciting came of it. The common theme that tends to run with people who have done this (in my experience) say that no matter how they try to change things when they are under hypnosis (tho a different technique to hypnosis is used) they can't.

www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com (http://www.phoenixhypno.bravehost.com)
Ann Marie, if a different techique is being used, do you still call this "Hypnosis", or is it something else? As for failure to achieve results, if the client belongs to one of the major religions, the PLR route is suggestive of a lie to them, and I have yet to see success in a client who believes they have been lied to. Terry

[Ann Marie Harrison]

I think I know what you mean. When I say a different way to Hypnosis, I mean it doesn't take the usual format of progressive relaxation, verbal deepening etc. I have used something called the 'Christos Experiment'. What I ask the person to do is akin to meditation, mind exercise. Because I want them to talk to me and answer questions I don't want them to be completely relaxed as might be during hypnosis. I have no idea about strong religious beliefs if I'm honest. I really don't know. I have never carried it out with any paying client so far. I have done this with friends and case studies only.



www.phoenix.bravehost.com (http://www.phoenix.bravehost.com)

[Don]

Why do you assume that hypnosis "usually" requires "progressive relaxation, verbal deepening, etc.?" The more I am involved in hypnotherapy the less I find that to be a necessary technique at all.

[PaNzEr]

interesting. but why would it be so wrong to suggest believing you can develop psi. religion doesnt have anything to do with human evolution. psi is not "black magic" or any crap like that. if it is real which i am almost certain it is real in every single person, it wouldn't interfere with religion. would it really be so hard to make yourself believe?

[Ann Marie Harrison]

Hi Terry

I use the Christos experiment only on case studies. I have never carried out a past life regression with a paying client. No reason. As you will know, this technique is more of a meditative technique as oppose to all of the verbal deepening. The aim is to keep the mind as alert as possible, but very focused on visualisation. If the person was 'Hypnotised', this only lightens it when asking them to talk. I've had my colleagues do this with me and it feels very different to hypnosis. I'm at work at the moment, but i will look up the other technique in my notes when I get back. You probably know it tho. As for Religion, I'm not the best person to ask. My people either went to church or didn't.

www.phoenix.bravehost.com (http://www.phoenix.bravehost.com)

[Ann Marie Harrison]

I can't see all the threads. Sorry, I've answered twice to one of them. I assume that it is required at first for people who have never been to a hypnotherapist before and are trying to relax. I didn't say it was absolutely necessary. It depends upon my client and what they want out of the session.

[ektoras_greek]

Ann MArie can you teach your clients to read 10,000 words per minute?