Being ready to accept therapy

[Stoic]

Some might agree that getting from a unhealthy state to a healthy one is a stairwell. You need to take a step at time, take down one limiting belief after another that prevent growth/happiness until you stand at the top and look for another set of stairs to climb. I agree with this concept.

The question I have is: What skills/attitudes does one need to bring people to the stairs?

I've been getting much better at spotting limiting beliefs of all types, also what type of questions to ask to internally resolve them. My rapport building skills are getting a lot better as well, BUT... I've noticed that until the person is "ready" I can't provide valuable feedback.
I need to learn how to assist people in becoming ready...

Example:
Today, I met a new person. Verrry negative and she felt like she deserved to feel bad. I built rapport, checked by mind reading and she was amazed that I was saying what she was thinking before she would say it. Then I did some metaphors and we are still on the same track, she agreed with them all, each pointing in the direction of "you can invoke certain emotions, consciously". Then a limiting belief pops up, "I'll never be able to feel happy with my life" I question and she responds with another, so I pose a question "Well, lets try something... hypothetically lets say you could, what would it feel like?" and she went internal for a good 4-5 seconds. Then she came back out, and I immediately noticed a lot of lost rapport. I build rapport again, did a role switch thing and tried again, and again noticed a lot of lost rapport and no progress, so I just build my way back up and left it alone.

I would imagine in a therapeutic environment people don't have this problem, since the reason the person looking for change is there is exactly that. But, I want to nurture positive change work in the real world as I'm sure a lot of you do, did I miss some 2ndary gain? supporting limiting belief? what direction should I focus on, to gain skills necessary to not have this road block to a world of happy people.

With ruthless clarity point out the flaws of my method. I'm all ears, or eyes in this case.

[Terry (existing)]

Just a couple of interesting points in your post that need elucidating. First of all, who decides that a person should be changed in any way? I ask because it seems to me that your attitude is to jump in and do it because you think it should be done. I know many who will look down on this idea.
Secondly, considering you feel so capable of bringing others to your couch as it were, how do you suppose that we at a distance, and knowing nothing about you or the person you are corresponding with, would know enough to be able to point you in the right direction if you can;t do it yourself?
As a matter of curiosity, am I correct in assuming that you are involved in some way with psychology? Seems to me that that is were your head is, so I am curious to see if I am right.... My own attitude is to wait for someone to ask for help before getting involved, so I never have a problem such as you ask about, but I aplaud your perceptive abilities. Use them to better purpose would be my suggestion...
Incidentally, when someone feels that their freedom is being interfered with, even in a good cause, resistance is to be expected. We all like to feel in charge except when we ask someone else to take over, even when in fact we are never truly in charge of ourselves....

[Stoic]

Interesting point Terry, I think I see a solution to what your rightfully point out from an ethical point of view. Would it be ethical if and only if, my purpose was to enable more options. I think we both agree that imposing priorities is unethical, but I'd like to think I'm working on a process level, not saying "like this less, and like this other thing more" but saying "You can do what - you like - more, and what you don't like, less". Would that be ethical?

Involvement in psychology: Yes, but not in this case. When I'm in my "action taking mode" I rarely utilize any of the information. I only access those resources under "thinking/conceptualizing/creating structure mode". I mostly learn it not for its use of application, but because I hope to restructure it one day when I know/understand enough.

"in fact we are never truly in charge of ourselves"
Very interesting statement, I tend to agree with it. What context are we contemplating from? Just so I know we are on the same boat!

BTW, your reply has already made me realize certain improvements I could make to my madness... Thank you!

[Don]

IMO, unless you are doing a legal intervention, what you are doing is assuming a position of superiority that may or may not be appropriate.

In your example, you wrote, "I met a new person. Verrry negative and she felt like she deserved to feel bad."

Maybe she should feel bad! Maybe she did something that caused these feelings and needs to feel bad to psychologically atone for whatever she did. If you "force" her out of it she won't have time to heal.

Stoic, I know you've been reading these forums. Have you seen where someone writes that they want to know if hypnosis will do something, then it turns out there was really something else? My friend, this doesn't just happen on forums, it happens all the time in person.

In your entire post of all the things you did, you made clear that you haven't yet grasped the concept of what we do--at least you didn't put that into your post. Did you ask such basic questions as "Why do you feel this way? How long have you felt this way? What was going on in your life when you first noticed you were feeling this way?" I don't seen any indication of it.

There's a wonderful little book I like to recommend entitled How to Survive the Loss of a Love. In it the authors make clear that different people heal from psychological hurts at their own rate. From your description you manipulatively attempted to change what she needs at this moment. You are, what my mother would have called, a "buttinski." Were you asked to help? No. But you felt you were so much better than her that you should make her think your way. That's wrong.

Stoic, I know that your heart is in the right place--I've seen it in your posts. But your knowledge and ability just isn't where you should be attacking people like this. Get some more in-person training.

I don't know why she was "Verrry negative," but according to what I've learned she is doing the best she can with the knowledge and tools available to her. From your post you know nothing of her experience and knowledge. It sounds to me like you want to be a hit-and-run practitioner. You want her to be positive and you'll slap her until she conforms to your idea of what is positive.

Perhaps she has some deep-seated need to be negative at this time and you force her to be positive. But the cause is still there. You haven't helped her, you've only caused her to repress the response to the emotion/belief without giving an alternative response. The result will either be a return to the original behavior or another response that could even be worse.

So Stoic, I have to repeat my advice: get more training. Until then, please think about the ethics of what you're doing and stop meddling into people's minds.

Then go watch "Ren and Stimpy" where Stimpy puts a machine on Ren's head that forces him to be positive as they sing the insipid "Happy Happy Joy Joy" song. What? Ren doesn't like it? Hmmmmm.....

[Terry (existing)]

First of all, your ethics are yours, and if I want support from others as to my right to mine, I am bound to support you and your rights. On the other hand, when communicating with one another we frequently need to point to our own personal views to explain what we write.
I ask that you give thought to what was said, but you of course are in no way bound by my code. On the other hand, you did ask WHY, and I believe I gave you the answer, or at least that was my intent. As to your other question, a story seems apropriate since I have one:)
Many years ago, I was invited to a party by someone who knew of my skills, since I had worked with his wife. On arrival, I was met at the door, and my host attempted to introduce me to another friend of his whom I had not previously met. His introduction was not what I might have hoped for since I was there to party, but the reception his introduction produces was classic.
"John, I want you to meet my friend the hypnotist". Reaction was instant, the other party took a step back as if from fear of contamination, and retorted, "I would never let anyone control MY mind"... Now I suppose one might take exception to that, but it got me off the hook, and I saw the funny side instead. See, nobody is in charge of their own mind ever, with one exception. During our daily lives, we are exposed to all sorts of input via the various senses, and react to all of them according to personality. We don't ask for these experiences, we don;t control them, but the one exception is when we are working with a skilled practitioner of hypnosis, at which time we truly are in control. I can change your personality to ensure you will react in a predictable manner, and I can input anything you wish to have inserted into your personality, but only if you wish it, since you are in control and not me. Thus, I never use someone for practise for instance. Nor will I attempt to change them based on superior knowledge of how it can be done. Respect for self begins with respect for what others are capable of, and not what they are. That is perhaps the difference between my posts and those of my friends. We see from different perspectives. I see a fool with a brilliant mind, but a faulty personality. They see something different. One of us is likely to be helpfull to the poster, and I never keep score..:cool: On the other hand, "To thine own self be true" as a big part of me.

[Stoic]

I wanted to keep it conceptual, not personal/specific... Since you ask let me explain my understanding of her unconscious conflict.

Limiting belief 1: Being Real = Feeling Negativity, I don't want to pretend to myself.
My direction wasn't toward not feeling bad, but that one can control their mood. Then a step forward on how with a better more positive attitude we can attain more.
My response: "What if you pretended to feel better? and just knew you were pretending to feel better? and felt better? Isn't that real enough? To feel better?"
Limiting belief 2: "This is me, its who I am"
My response: "So, you have never been positive? Even once?"
Limiting belief 3: This negative belief helps me stay focused on things
My response: "What does it help you stay focused on? and could you use positive motivation to move towards, rather than away?"
Limiting belief 4: "I just couldn't do it" even though she responded positively to my story of me/other people doing it.
My response: "How would it feel if you did?"
*This is where I saw a negative shift in rapport, and retreated.

She got out of a relationship a while ago with embarrassing circumstances, and she believes if she continues to feel the pain she can make sure it doesn't happen which will help her stay focused on her children. Healthy secondary gain, as always. But with the realization that she would be happier and more productive, AND fulfill her secondary gain I expected a shift. Grrr... puzzling! The only reason I'm here asking this, is because I see it work easily if I don't miss anything when people ask for it, just not when I approach people with the idea, and its always against a certain "personality type"(for the lack of a better term).

[Don]

Stoic. I admire your zeal and interest. What you need is training.

Error 1) Did she come to you and ask for help, or were you just butting in?
Error 2) She wanted to feel bad. What gave you the right to try and change her?
Error 3) Did you get her permission to try and change her, or were you just trying to show off?
Error 4) Why should she pretend?
Error 5) She wanted to be real and you talk about pretending. Were you not listening to what she said?
Error 6) She's trying to get to her core, who she is now. You're trying to get her to think of something superficial in the past.
Error 7) You asked her, "What does it help you stay focused on?" But according to what you posted, you didn't give her time to respond, instead you asked her something totally off topic, "could you use positive motivation to move towards, rather than away?"
Error 8) She's hurting and you're asking her to conceptualize. She was in no mood or mind-set to consider what type of "positive motivations" could be used and what does "move towards, rather than away" even mean?
Error 9) She says she couldn't do it and you change it to what seems like an interrogation: Oh yeah? Well I think you can! So I want you to tell me, right now, how it would feel if you did!

So you didn't pay attention to what she was saying, you tried very obviously to manipulate her, you seemed to interrogate her, and all while she is feeling hurt. And you actually wonder why you lost rapport?

All of the things you did could have been positive if done at the right time in the right place and in the right way. The real key to all of this is in the underlying assumption in the first sentence: "I wanted to keep it conceptual."

Concepts are wonderful! But you're focused on the concepts and not on the client. I would contend that such process-oriented treatment is not what we do. We use client-oriented treatment. Each client deserves unique and individual assistance in achieving their goals, not yours. You were trying to force your goals on her.

So where can you learn to avoid these obvious errors and understand more? In training. That's where you learn to work with people instead of concepts. That's where you learn to pay attention to everything the client does and says, from the way they breathe and the tilt of their head to the words they say.

If you want to practice concepts and processes, try computer programming. If you want to learn to be a successful NLP practitioner/hypnotherapist, get some training.


You wrote, "But with the realization that she would be happier and more productive, AND fulfill her secondary gain I expected a shift. Grrr... puzzling!"

Why? What made you assume she wanted to be happier? What made yo assume that she needed to be more productive? What made you assume that there was not a tertiary gain and that the secondary gain was of minor importance?

Now, the fact is, you may have answers for everything I brought up here. But we can't give you a course in hypnotherapy and NLP. And I'm not going to go back and forth saying, "you should have done this" only to have you later say that you did do it while revealing other difficulties in your approach.

As I wrote, I admire your zeal and interest. Now, get some training and you'll do great!

[Poodle]

I just learned that the "model" has changed greatly. People that are asking ALL THE QUESTIONS ARE BEING CALLED "META-MUDLERS". When they are talking about attitude they are meaning: soft, gentle, kind, caring and in the MINIMUM NUMBER OF STEPS POSSIBLE.

[Jack]

I would imagine in a therapeutic environment people don't have this problem, since the reason the person looking for change is there is exactly that. But, I want to nurture positive change work in the real world as I'm sure a lot of you do, did I miss some 2ndary gain? supporting limiting belief? what direction should I focus on, to gain skills necessary to not have this road block to a world of happy people.

It has been said, but is worth repeating, that changing people who have no desire to be changed is a fruitless and invasive exercise.

It does you credit that you wish to make the world a happier place, but some people want to be unhappy, for some of the reasons outlined in other posts in this thread. Now, my feeling is that there are enough people who desire change to keep us all occupied until Armageddon without storming the ramparts, battering down the doors and finding the castle empty.

I think the reason you lost rapport was simply because you were in territory to which you had not been invited; you had been on the border and she was quite happy with that - because you were taking an interest and we all like someone to do that - but as soon as you ventured closer to the heart of the matter, her subconscious simply told you to sod off and mind your own business. And quite rightly too.

Every week or so I get a client who is not there under his or her own volition; the pre-session chat usually weeds these people out and I send them home with the instruction to give me a call when they feel that they are ready to take control, without outside pressure.

If I treated such a client, they would be resentful and not enjoy it, and I would be fighting an uphill battle against impossible odds, and I would not enjoy it either.

The road block you mention is not yours to remove, and is there for a purpose.

Jack