Heavy state of hypnosis

[Unregistered]

How do you tell if your subject is in a heavy state of hypnosis? and what is the best way to achieve a heavy state of hypnosis? i usually do an induction, then do 2 deepening techinques, but it doesnt seem to be enough to get someone to hallucinate that someone or something just came in to the room, they dont see anything. what should i do to deepen the hypnosis state even more? do more deepening techniques?

[Merlin]

Not sure what you mean by 'heavy state of hypnosis'
A baseball player can be somnambulistic and still hit the fast ball. Is that 'heavy'?

[Unregistered]

well i dont mean "heavy" i mean "deep" state of hypnosis. to where halluciations i tell then will be true.

[Merlin]

>
well i dont mean "heavy" i mean "deep" state of hypnosis...

of course you do :)
My point was merely that hallucinations require somnambulism, not necessarily 'deep' hypnosis.

My FAQ gives a good test for such a state.
Deepeners work well if you're doing hypnosis and not guided relaxation.

[Unregistered]

what is a good way to achieve a Somnambulism state without progressive relaxation? I looked through your FAQ but i couldnt find it.

and thx for the help Merlin :D

[Merlin]

It's (unfortunately) beyond the scope of a FAQ to actually teach methods of hypnosis induction.

This webboard also doesn't lend itself to effective training.
I could tell you how I do it, but it wouldn't be of much help either :(

I am sorry.

[Unregistered]

its no problem, youve been a great help, now im going to get a few books and read through those. :)

[Merlin]

Check out 'hypnotherapy' by Dave Elman.

[Unregistered]

thanks, ill check it out

[Unregistered2]

Check out 'hypnotherapy' by Dave Elman.
Hello Merlin,

In your FAQ, you wirte:
Somnambulism is also the state where you readily accept suggestions of hallucination. Achieving somnambulism in a subject should take one minute or less. [Qupte]
You can get a somnambulistic state very fast by the Elman technique, but how can you get a profound somnambulism, where hallucinations are possible, within a minute?

[Quote]This webboard also doesn't lend itself to effective training.
I could tell you how I do it, but it wouldn't be of much help either Okay, but perhaps you can give just some suggestions about the basic principles nevertheless?
What is your preferd way of induction and deepening?

[Terry (existing)]

Guest, I wonder if you understand the word "training" because in spite of being told we don't do it online, you persist in asking for it, so it leads us all to wonder at how well you understand what is written? We don;t train the unknowns, any more than a medical college would offer you training. Medical doctors work on the body, and we work on the mind, a much more difficult task in my opinion, yet I doubt you would request distance training in surgery would you? Now take proper training or quit doing what you are doing before something bad arises which you have no skill to control...

[Nicholas]

There are techniques that are faster and more productive of results, but it sounds to me like that may not be your problem. It sounds like you lack confidence in your own ability, or you may have a resistive subject.
I have found that one deepening technique is enough to produce excelent results.
As a hypnotist you need to be confident in yourself, and what you are doing.
I would suggest to you that it is not the deepening techniques you use, but how convincing you are as a hypnotist, that is causing the problem.
Work on your presentation more than anything else. I say this all because I had a similar problem at one point. So I hope I'm not making too many presumptions as to the nature of your problem.

Terry, you could easily help people to understand, you just don't want to.
I can't believe that you would suggest being a hypnotherapist such as yourself is more difficult than being a real!!!!! doctor.
I'd like to see you try a medical degree and then come back and tell us which one's more difficult.
Also many doctors on the internet are more than happy to help people with the understanding of medical conditions, and remedies. They have something you may not have heard of called compasion, albeit for minor things. They have an interest in helping their fellow man (or woman if you like). Your attitude alienates potential therapists. With your attitude you are likely denying many people in the future from recieving the proper theraputic help.

[Alonso]

Teaching someone how to induce hallucinations is complex enough to not be discussed in an online forum.

And you might want to revise your 2 cents... "you just have to be more confident..." That's like saying "come on bother your client to death so he'll see something."

What point, if any, were you trying to make in your last post? You really should revise it.

[Jack]

Hello unreg,

Every time you hypnotise someone, your voice, your gestures, breathing pattern, facial movements etc., transmit messages to the person you are hypnotising.

Somnabulism is not difficult to achieve. The so-called Esdaile and Sichort deep hypnotic states are not difficult to achieve.

With the right subject and the right hypnotist.

Can you learn anything from that?

Jack

[Merlin]

Somnambulism is also the state where you readily accept suggestions of hallucination. Achieving somnambulism in a subject should take one minute or less.

Have you read Elman's book?
He explains the one minute version.

If you train in instant/rapid inductions, you'll find it only takes a few seconds with some inductions.

Okay, but perhaps you can give just some suggestions about the basic principles nevertheless?


There are many principles, depending on whether you're using kinesthetic, auditory, startle, or other inductions.
For instance, a startle induction simply needs to suprise a person.

[Unregistered2]

Guest, I wonder if you understand the word "training" because in spite of being told we don't do it online, you persist in asking for it, so it leads us all to wonder at how well you understand what is written? We don;t train the unknowns, any more than a medical college would offer you training. Medical doctors work on the body, and we work on the mind, a much more difficult task in my opinion, yet I doubt you would request distance training in surgery would you? Now take proper training or quit doing what you are doing before something bad arises which you have no skill to control...

Terry, the first thing is that I'm not the person who had asked the original question. Therefore I wrote: "Unregistered2".

You wrote:
"...I wonder if you understand the word "training" because in spite of being told we don't do it online, you persist in asking for it, so it leads us all to wonder at how well you understand what is written?"

I had written: "Okay, but perhaps you can give just some suggestions about the basic principles nevertheless?"
I thought this would be clear enough. Obviously, it was not.

I didn't ask for an online training, but for a few general suggestions. Is there anything wrong with that, Terry? Any reason to be as unkindly as you are?
You are talking about rights: Mines and yours. Okay, I have no right to be treated politely, and you are not obligated to be polite, and this seems to be the only important aspect for you.

"Medical doctors work on the body, and we work on the mind, a much more difficult task in my opinion, yet I doubt you would request distance training in surgery would you?"

I wouldn't ask a doctor for an online surgery training, but I would ask him how an appendectomy would be like in general.

"Now take proper training or quit doing what you are doing before something bad arises which you have no skill to control..."

I don't know where you know from that I do something that I shouldn't do.
I don't think my questions were such amateurish. Perhaps it my tranquilize you that I'm not yet a practising hypnotherapist.


Hello Nicholas, Alonso and Jack,

thank you for your answers, they are matter of fact and helpful. I agree with you.

Alonso wrote: "What point, if any, were you trying to make in your last post? You really should revise it."

All right. According to Merlin, there is no problem to get anybody into a profound somnambulism in a miute or less (that's at least the way I understood her comment).

It's not hard for me to admit that almost everyone can be taken into a deep state very fast, when the subject is cooperative and a good pretalk has been done, the Elman induction is just the most famous therefore.

But I doubt that everyone can develop hallucinations in a minute or less.
Perhaps it may be possible with an intensive preconditioning, but I don't believe yet that it can be done in almost all instances without such a conditioning.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm ready to change my mind.

[Terry (existing)]

Unreg, your protestations are hollow indeed, it is obvious from your question that you are self taught, or badly taught, and require more help. This help is "training" no matter what you choose to call it, and we don't do it. Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me otherwise. I paid my money and took the time to become skilled and practised as have others on this board, and we have little sympathy for those who choose to take short cuts and cheat their clients in the process. That is why we so often get posters who claim to have visited several so called practitioners and have never got the results they asked for. As for the fact that YOU didn't post the question that elicited the reply about teaching from Merlin, so what, you read the bloody thing didn't you?

[Merlin]

All right. According to Merlin, there is no problem to get anybody into a profound somnambulism in a miute or less (that's at least the way I understood her comment).

It's not hard for me to admit that almost everyone can be taken into a deep state very fast, when the subject is cooperative and a good pretalk has been done, the Elman induction is just the most famous therefore.


To be more clear (I hope)
The above assumes adequate skill/training for the hypnotist for the particular situation.



But I doubt that everyone can develop hallucinations in a minute or less.

When the mind expects something to happen,
it will go out of its way to create that expectation as a reality.



Perhaps it may be possible with an intensive preconditioning, but I don't believe yet that it can be done in almost all instances without such a conditioning.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm ready to change my mind.

[Terry (existing)]

Please don't insult the intelligence of the rest of us by claiming rudeness when what you are told hits a truth you don't like. I said you lacked training, and your post discloses this. I told you we don't train online, and this is fact. Not using the actual word "training" does not preclude the request...

[Unregistered2]

[QUOTE]Please don't insult the intelligence of the rest of us by claiming rudeness when what you are told hits a truth you don't like. I said you lacked training, and your post discloses this. I told you we don't train online, and this is fact. Not using the actual word "training" does not preclude the request...[QUOTE]

"Please don't insult the intelligence of the rest of us by claiming rudeness when what you are told hits a truth you don't like."

Terry, I was not talking about "the rest" of you, but only about you in person. Sorry, but in my opinion your behavior IS rude.

And I'm not angry because of any "truth" you told me.
You may assume that I need more training and tell me so. There ist nothing impolite with that. And as I have already told you, I'm NOT yet a hypnotherapist.

If you have really no idea why I found your reactions to be unkindly, I'm afraid you wouldn't even understand if I tried to explain.

"I told you we don't train online, and this is fact. Not using the actual word "training" does not preclude the request...["

For the third time: I don't request any training, neither by using the word "training" nor by using any other words.
I haven't asked for any training, neither did I ask you, Terry, nor did I ask any other person here.

Our discussion is very theoretical and abstract.
In my opinion, nobody will be able to use it to get a quasi-online-training unless he already has got a profound knowledge and experience.
I think this thread hasn't anything in common with any online training.

I say it again, although I think it will be useless, as yuo will probably just ignore it again: I am seeking a theoretical discussion about some basic principles, but I don't want to get your online-training.
Believe me or don't. But I adjure you not to tell me again and again that you don't give an online training.

None of your replies have been helpful in any regard. You have not even tried to answer my questions.
The only thing you are doing again and again is to accuse me of seeking an online training that in fact I 'm not looking for. You reproach me and lecture on me.
Neither are your postings very polite, nor are they fair.
You always tell me the same thing, and it is useless to contradict.


Hello Merlin (and everybody),

I think we actually agree in several points. I should modify my position and explain it more detailled.

In my opinion, the question of inductions and deepeners is important, but not TOO important. There are several good rapid and instant inductions, but I think there ist no "super induction" beeing 10 times better than the rest.

The most important aspects of this matter are the confidence of the hypnotist and the cooperation of the subject. The confidence is expressed at an unconcious level by any word spoken by the hypnotist, by any gesture.
This point has already been stressed here, and I agree completely.

The second point is the full cooperation of the subject. That has already been stressed, too.

I don't deny that not only a profound but even a very profound hypnotic state can be induced in a minute in evrery fearless and highly motivated person. But in my opinion, for some people much prehypnotic efforts would have to be done.

I think it wouldn't always pay to proceed this way, as in some instances you can get the same results easier and faster by doing the induction sooner, though the deepening procedure might take more time.
Of cause, a good pretalk and the removal of any fears of the subject, if present, are always commanded nontheless.

Another way may be found in a special preconditioning, where the subject is told about some specific phenomena explicitly or even made watch a demonstration with another subject.

My considerations at this time. I suppose we agree in many points, perhaps we don't do so in some others, but as I already said: I am ready to change my mind.
Is it only a question of confidence and pretalk in your sight?

P.S. Thank you for your previous replies.

[Unregistered2]

Have you read Elman's book?
He explains the one minute version.

If you train in instant/rapid inductions, you'll find it only takes a few seconds with some inductions.



There are many principles, depending on whether you're using kinesthetic, auditory, startle, or other inductions.
For instance, a startle induction simply needs to suprise a person.

Sorry Merlin,

I accidently failed to notice this reply. Thank you.
I have read Elman's book. But the question is if you always get a PROFOUND somnambulism or not. It's easier to make someone forget some numbers than to make him see things that are not there.

[Merlin]

I don't understand what you mean by 'PROFOUND'
either the person is hypnotised, or not.
If they are truly hallucinating [numbers lost], then they can hallucinate anything else.

[Nicholas]

Terry is extremely rude, and I don't think that will ever change.
For some someone who is supposedly a therapist, and I imagine should know some NLP, his people handling skills are atrocious. I can only assume that he is either retarded, or knows nothing of the therapy he claims to have practiced.

I apologise to terry for yet again making light of his social deficiencies, but with the amount of abuse, he kicks out, he deserves only constant belittling.

If I believed in god, I would be certain terry was going to hell, and very soon.

On the subject of cooperation from the subject, in the case of rapid inductions and deepening, that cooperation is mostly subconscious, which reacts very differently from the conscious cooperation in relaxation techniques, and many inductions.

[Merlin]

>For some someone who is supposedly a therapist, and I imagine should know some NLP, his people handling skills are atrocious. I can only assume that he is either retarded, or knows nothing of the therapy he claims to have practiced.

If you were sitting in Terry's chair, you might see things differently.

[Nicholas]

Of course, but there are plenty of people in a very similar position to terry, who respond in a completely different way. They seem to know how to put 'we don't train on this forum' politely, as opposed to terry's fabulous handling of it.

Befor anyone points it out, I know I blatently disregarded my own advice to make the point, but that was sort of the point.

[Terry (existing)]

Frankly Nicholas, I have no problem with what you choose to think about me. You are already doing that which, if you truly believe what you say is just plain stupid, you are reading my posts.. Either you leave my posts available to read, or if you really believe what you say, put me on "ignore", and no loss to you since you believe me to be a fraud. On the other hand, if you continue to read my posts, you show yourself to be insincere to all. As for the visitor who complains, it is obvious that they also are being either insincere, or are ignorant of the English language, and unable to benifit from our replies.... Being rude is a negative attitude, which I don't ascribe to, but lying in a post is both rude and insincere, and I am tired of valueless protestations.

[Poodle]

We have no idea what skill level you have, if any. Terry is far from rude or impolite. He just tells the truth. The man is an angel. Trust me!! As for how long does it take to reach that state "how long does it take to say the word "SLEEP"? That's it. No deepeners. No nothing. Just a lot of training and thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars not to mention lots and lots and lots of practice. You will not find it written in a book. Any attempt at hypnosis in the hands of a lay person is potentially very dangerous. That is why we don't do certain things on the forum. It's general purpose is to answer questions about hypnosis. I'm quite sure I'd not be too impressed with a Medical Doctor that learned from a book or over the net. I want one who went to Medical School and had hands on training and did an internship. The original Elman Induction was a tad long and has been modified over the years to about four minutes. It seems to work well on about 94% of the population.

[Black]

I read constantly on this board comparisons between hypnotism and medical science. Some people even suggest that being a hypnotist is more difficult than being a medical doctor. This is FAR AWAY from the truth.

I do not understand why some of you write a number of paragraphs explaining why you do not do something, and instead you can, within the same amount of words, give really practical info. Even for the brain surgery it is possible to give some practical info in this fashion. It may not suffice, but it can be a small step towards someone's goal.

Hypnosis is mostly about language, and personally, I do not give much advice because of my lack of competence in English and prolonged time to put thoughts into English.

Finally, someone being a good hypnotist does not mean (s)he is a good teacher. If you were to delete "get a training" posts this board would significantly diminish its size, and it would speed up usage.

[Nicholas]

Terry, I read your posts in the hope that you may give some glimmer of intelligent, insightful or helpful peice of advice.
I am very interested in your handling of people and use it as a constant reference point for my own, in the hope that I do not come across in the same way. I also get my daily dose of anger or ennoyance from your posts which I would otherwise find it difficult to require. So feel comfortable in the knowledge that you are of some use.
You know very well that someones perception of what you say, can be very different from your own. The idea is to use empathy, so that you can get across what you are saying more easily. Words mean very different things to different people, and how people use them can have huge variations. You may have learned that somewhere along the line.

Poodle. Think about what you said about terry. Think!
I'd like to give you an example. 'Does this dress make me look fat?'
'No, your fat makes you look fat.'
A statement that is both true and rude. What an oddity.

I totally agree with black about comparing doctors with therapists. Doctors are on a completely different level to therapists.

My knowledge of NLP and the like isn't the issue. If what terry says about his own knowledge and experience, then he is far beyond my level. I would have thought that that would lead to more productive and helpful posts, but obviously not in many situations.

[Jack]

Nicholas,

I agree with Poodle in the main. I think the problem may be that Terry always comes across as being impatient and seems quick to condemn. My old philosophy tutor was like that, it comes from having seen it all and done it all. Terry does not suffer fools gladly, unlike myself who is of course the epitome of forbearance and understanding.:D

The second part of your problem may be that none of us is face to face. It is a little like having 'virtual sex', you can go through the motions but ultimately there is no-one there except yourself. Interpretation and imagination is all. I would rush madly to add I have no personal experience of this bizarre form of expression, but a colleague has just written a book on it which I am ploughing through with difficulty. Sometimes anonymity is a wonderful thing.:)

So, Nicholas, my suggestion is that you can either disregard Terry, which I am sure he would not mind, or you can learn why he says what he says in the way he says it, you can demonstrate that you are unaffected by it and be generous in your posts or you can logically argue against the points he makes. Like carrying a grudge, taking offence only hurts the grudge carrier, not the grudgee.

Jack

[Terry (existing)]

Black, the statement regarding the comparison between doctors of medicine and practioners of hypnosis, was mine, and I have no hesitation in claiming it as such. I have no wish to do away with medical doctors, they indeed have their place, and many are excellent in practise, mine included, I trained him well (S)... The point I would make is simple enough. The doctor listens to our stated problem, (presenting) and after an initial examination, likely sends us off for further testing via a variety of machines, and a number of displines. Wonderfull, I love them all if they practise in my interest, but in comparison, the best hypnotherapist has nothing more that his or her skills and knowledge, plus access to the clients mind, and with this alone finds cause, and remedy. We don't compete with our doctors, but we sure need comparative, or even more skills to get our job done without access to other disiplines. Hence the statment I made and stick with, so take it or leave it as you will, I have no intention of attempting to change anyones mind......

[Unregistered2]

I don't understand what you mean by 'PROFOUND'
either the person is hypnotised, or not.
If they are truly hallucinating [numbers lost], then they can hallucinate anything else.

Thank you...
Well, it's often stated that visual hallucinations were more difficult to be produced than the phenomena of amnesia. That's at least the traditional point of view, though that may be wrong.

The term "profound" (in contrast to "simple" or to "light" somnambulism?) means that a somnambulistic state may exist where many phenomena can occur, but not all, and another state, where each single phenomenon can be found.

If somone can have a positive hallucination, but yet fails to develop a negative one, we could say he is somnambulistic, but not in a very profound somnambulism, couldn't we?

Dave Elman himself seemed to think in a similar way. That's at least my personal impression.
He taught compounding of suggestion and said that the first suggestion was not too stong in many instances. He applied compounding e.g. in the case of anesthesia.
And though he used to work with deep hypnosis, it seems that he didn't always get an extremely suggestible state (profound somnambulism) very fast.

Apparently he had a somnambulistic state deep enough to get simple amnesia in some cases, but not deep enough to get a perfect anesthesia very quickly.

Don't let me be misunderstood. It's not my intention to say that he or whoever was or is right.
I just want to explain what my question is and where it comes from.

[skip]

Unregistered,

Words are somewhat slippery, I can agree.

I have recordings of Elman, teaching doctors, dentists etc.

Countless times, Elman will, within 60 seconds, have what he describes as a "profound hypnotic state", and "perfect anesthisia". And he invarably goes on the say, that the MD's can perform any proceedure, they would care to, with perfect comfort on their patients part.

In order to verify that statement, each time, he has one of the MD's test the anesthisia, using a Hollis clamp, or some other insturment. Often the test is described as "severe", as in the clamp described as down to the third notch. I dont know if you are framiliar with a Hollis clamp, but trust me, you couldnt fake it, if one is pinching you to that degree.

Elman actually, in about 12 hours of recording, uses the description, "perfect anesthisia" often enough that it becomes a bit annoying.

Now I realize that words can mean different things, to different people. And I can, in no way guarantee, what Elman meant by "profound state of trance" and "perfect anesthisia", but I have my own experience and opinions on it.

What do you suppose Elman really did mean, when he said, time after time, to people who were professionally framiliar, with all aspects of anesthisia,
"perfect anesthisia"?

cheers,

skip

[dr_zero.kewl]

This question has been asked for many years. By many different people. In many different ways. I wish I could offer you a quick fix but I can't.

Hallucinations is a tough word. It can have many different meanings.

I don't use regular scripts often. To State quite frankly I don't believe they work. It's different for everybody. To achieve the best possible reprograming state may be difficult or easy to achieve. It helps to know about your client. What makes them comfortable. What do they take pleasure in. What makes them relaxed. For instance you would not say I want you to imagine you're in a quiet small room if your client is claustrophobic. You get my point? Know your client know what they like and try to incorporate that into your session. Instead of saying I want you to relax your whole body. Start with your feet and moved to your ankle and knees and so on.
Try I'd like you to sit there for a minute and make your mind blank. Just think how good and relaxing it is to get off your feet. To relax and feel how the tension just slips away. Like late at night when you take off your shoes and relax on your bed. What do you usually think about? Do you think to yourself it feels so good to just relax. Not have to worry about walking around. But just take time out for yourself to truly relax and clear your mind. I hope you get my point here. When you make it much more personal they open up a lot better. And when they truly trust you you can accomplish anything. I hope this helped in some way.

T

[Unregistered2]

This question has been asked for many years. By many different people. In many different ways. I wish I could offer you a quick fix but I can't.

Hallucinations is a tough word. It can have many different meanings.

I don't use regular scripts often. To State quite frankly I don't believe they work. It's different for everybody. To achieve the best possible reprograming state may be difficult or easy to achieve. It helps to know about your client. What makes them comfortable. What do they take pleasure in. What makes them relaxed. For instance you would not say I want you to imagine you're in a quiet small room if your client is claustrophobic. You get my point? Know your client know what they like and try to incorporate that into your session. Instead of saying I want you to relax your whole body. Start with your feet and moved to your ankle and knees and so on.
Try I'd like you to sit there for a minute and make your mind blank. Just think how good and relaxing it is to get off your feet. To relax and feel how the tension just slips away. Like late at night when you take off your shoes and relax on your bed. What do you usually think about? Do you think to yourself it feels so good to just relax. Not have to worry about walking around. But just take time out for yourself to truly relax and clear your mind. I hope you get my point here. When you make it much more personal they open up a lot better. And when they truly trust you you can accomplish anything. I hope this helped in some way.

T


Thank you dr_zero.knew!,
thank you all!
There helpful replies have been posted!

Maybe the discussion will continue, but at this time I want to thank those who have replied me.

[Unregistered2]

Hello Skip, that's a good point. I think "perdect anesthesia" means "complete anesthesia", and I think that is what you are suggesting.

Maybe there is a contradiction in Elman's work, mabe it's only in my mind.
Perhaps Elman could induce a very good anesthesia in nearly all his subjects very fast, but that there were some bad, little cooperative subjects left where he had to compound.

There may be some additional circumstances that helped him:
When Mr. Elman taught his docs, there was an atmosphere of hypnosis.
Hypnosis was the subject of teachingof talking, of thoughts. Hypnotic demonstrations were made.
Without question that was a strong effect to support him.
And there are some psychological aspects, too: The doctors were motivated, they wanted the hypnosis to see work. They paid for hypnosis, so they had to accept its power.

The same effects that the stage hypnotist benefits from, the psychology of group dynamics and the effectivness of a demonstration when the group is watching you, was of use for him, too.

To say it clearly: I'm sure he had a very high rate of success when he lacked those circumstances as he was a very good hypnotist, but I suppose they were of use for him to get faster results in certain cases.

(In another context, Elman himself mentions at least one of those effects and tells us how strong it can be.)

[Unregistered2]

Frankly Nicholas, I have no problem with what you choose to think about me. You are already doing that which, if you truly believe what you say is just plain stupid, you are reading my posts.. Either you leave my posts available to read, or if you really believe what you say, put me on "ignore", and no loss to you since you believe me to be a fraud. On the other hand, if you continue to read my posts, you show yourself to be insincere to all. As for the visitor who complains, it is obvious that they also are being either insincere, or are ignorant of the English language, and unable to benifit from our replies.... Being rude is a negative attitude, which I don't ascribe to, but lying in a post is both rude and insincere, and I am tired of valueless protestations.

Hello Terry,

I didn't want to write you again cause it's not my desire to add fuel to the flames. But as you mentioned me, I will reply sth.

"As for the visitor who complains, it is obvious that they also are being either insincere, or are ignorant of the English language, and unable to benifit from our replies.... "

The first thing is the one to be true: I am ignorant of the English language. English is not my first language, and I don't live in an Anglophone country. I sincerely apologize for my mistakes.

But I'm not insincere. (All right, you said "either or")

"...and unable to benefit from our replies..."

Sorry Terry, I could benefit form the replies of the others, but not from yours. And the reason therefore is not me, but your replies.

You did not try to answer my questions. That's okay, you are not obliged to help me.

But it is hard for me to benefit from replies where no objective aid can be found, but only reproaches.
You critizize me again this time, and I don't know why.

In my opinion, someone who wants to help me shall do so; (s)he is welcome to me!
Who doesn't want shall just let it, he surely has got his reasons.

But I don't understand when someone comes to reproache me again and again for the same thing that I'm not to blame for.

It's normal for a hypnosis forum that some of the postings can be of practical use. It would be very strange otherwise. Maybe that's problematic in some cases, in particular if some therapeutic knowledge is involved and someone unqualified might abuse it for his unqualified therapy.

Nevertheless, IMHO it would be wrong to ban such threads too much.

THIS Thread is very abstract and IMHO the potential risk of abuse is very little. It's more "dangerous" to describe or discuss some concrete inductions.
So in my sight there is no reason to participate for those who are not interested in the discussion itself.

Not knowing that I'm not the person who started this thread, you ironically asked me if I read the replies.
But you, Terry, were lecturing on me again and again because of the same reproval. I told you that I didn't want any online training, but you didn't accept my answer and insinuated that I was telling the untruth.

I may need some more training (yes I do - and I am not a hypnotherapist yet), but I was not seeking an online training at this forum, but a general theoretical discussion. I can't see why this might be bad. (And, by the way, it's a discussion just about hypnosis and not about hypnotherapytherapy.)

You presumed that I was complaining about your behavior because you told me your views. But that is wrong.

Terry, I have been in several mailing lists and I have read and written many postings, but I have never been treated before in the way I am now by you. And I have rarely observed such a behavior.

I'm going to tell you why your behavior is rude in my sight.
Perhaps you will just ignore it. You can react in different ways, and it's your decision and responsibility what you will do.

Just your first reply. Surely, it wasn't the worst, but I can't deal with each single one.

You didn't know that I am not the autor of the previous postings by "unregistered", but if you had read my text well, you would have recognized that your reproaches were wrong.

"Your rights and ours.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guest, I wonder if you understand the word "training" because in spite of being told we don't do it online, you persist in asking for it, so it leads us all to wonder at how well you understand what is written? We don;t train the unknowns, any more than a medical college would offer you training. Medical doctors work on the body, and we work on the mind, a much more difficult task in my opinion, yet I doubt you would request distance training in surgery would you? Now take proper training or quit doing what you are doing before something bad arises which you have no skill to control..."



It begins with a legal aspect.
There are sentences of critisism, of depriciation, of refusal, of provocation, of assumption. But I have not found one single word nice or friendly.

The jumping point is not a single sentence, but the entirety. Some of your sentences may be correct and not impolite apart, but put together your posting becomes quite rude. You may think different - that's your right - but I'm sure many people would appreciate it the same way I do.

And even if you think that this was really polite and a good way of communication, there is no reason for lecturing on me as you did in the following postings.

Writing that your posting was not polite was not "insulting your intelligence", as you wrote.

Terry, I use to be polite in what I say and what I write. You can believe me, because that's not only what I say.

I know some very good and experienced hypnotherapists who are very gentle.

Perhaps you are a great hypnotherapist and gentle to your clients and to other people offline. And moreover I haven't read your other postings, and maybe you are more gentle otherwise.

But you were not in this case. And it is just better to think about it then to plan the next attack on me. Just think about it.

Maybe you are a true gentleman, and then it would be a great thing if you demonstrated it even online.

Maybe you had some bad experiences with some people who didn't want to learn anything, but yet did some therapeutic work which they were not qualified for.
But I won't do any therapeutic work before I don't know I'm really qualified therefore and I have a good sense of responsibility.

It is not my intent to insult you, but to tell you my point of view. I may be wrong in my opinions, but that's the way I consider the things to be. I have told you what I think in honesty.
I was annoyed when I wrote my other replies to you (that was obvious), but this time I am not.

[Poodle]

Let's back up a little here. The Elman induction with mental amnesia can be and is used for anesthesia, YES, but there are two lower levels where deep anesthesia exists as in the coma state and below that I know of. If I were having major surgery, I would want the coma state. If I were to have a baby, I sure would want to be numb through and through. Dental office - somnambulism works fine, minor surgery no problem. It depends on the type of surgery or procedure as to the depth of trance needed. Get the picture? It's still the same induction. Just more suggestion added to it to take it to lower levels. Also one must learn the laws of compounding.

Read what Skip has written. The man knows whereof he speaks and I'm not a Pain Specialist for nothing.

[Black]

Hi Terry. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to give newbies useful info.

To all. My point is that posters come here with very little previous knowledge about hypnosis and they are willing to learn, curious, etc. Above all, stating that hypnosis requires more skills than brain surgery will not give them correct information and guide them in the right direction. In fact there are a number of occupations that require more skills and are more difficult than hypnosis.

You can learn basic inductions in a matter of days, a within weeks you can aquire some serious, practical skills. Of course, throughout years, you will become better, but isn't that the case with every aspect of human life?

[Terry (existing)]

Hi Terry. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to give newbies useful info.

To all. My point is that posters come here with very little previous knowledge about hypnosis and they are willing to learn, curious, etc. Above all, stating that hypnosis requires more skills than brain surgery will not give them correct information and guide them in the right direction. In fact there are a number of occupations that require more skills and are more difficult than hypnosis.

You can learn basic inductions in a matter of days, and within weeks you can aquire some serious, practical skills. Of course, throughout years, you will become better, but isn't that the case with every aspect of human life?
My opinion of your attitude and beliefs is unprintable, so I will leave it to others to reply to your inane post, and just point out that it is people such as you who appear to be so encouraging, which leads newbies to believe they can practise after reading a few books. Nuf said...

[Nicholas]

Nuf said? How old are you really terry?

[Black]

My opinion of you Terry is very printable, but I will leave it out here in order to make this thread more useful. Users can decide for themselves which posts are more fact supported and believable. If every other user considered my attitude being inappropriate/rude I would question my behavior.

For those of you new to hynosis I recommend Tad James' comprehensive guide, it is worth investing. Hands-on training is the best and fastest way to learn hypnosis and not the only way.

[John_Sellars]

How do you tell if your subject is in a heavy state of hypnosis? and what is the best way to achieve a heavy state of hypnosis? i usually do an induction, then do 2 deepening techinques, but it doesnt seem to be enough to get someone to hallucinate that someone or something just came in to the room, they dont see anything. what should i do to deepen the hypnosis state even more? do more deepening techniques?
Unreg,
I know you've already had replies to this but here is my contribution:
You refer to a 'Heavy State of Hypnosis' and I believe it would be good for you to understand what that phrase (and it is your phrase) really means. So please really think about what you mean and what you are trying to achieve.

When we use words like 'going deeper' what we really mean is that the subject is becoming more open to suggestion - which is where the power of hypnosis lies - and there are many ways of achieving this. Dave Elman's techniques worked great for Dave Elman and my techniques work great for me. Its important to find that unique pattern which works for you, everytime - and you will find it.
Firstly learn to recognise the signs of Hypnosis and score your client's 'depth of trance' (whatever that means to you) out of, say, 100. Now, either make notes of the techniques you used or, even better, record each session. Then you build a matrix in a computer spreadsheet or on paper and over time you'll see 'your' powerful patterns emerging. Keep scoring - keep refining. One day, someone will ask you how you get such 'depth' and you won't be able to give them some magic words - just tell them they must work at it.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards
John

www.thehypnosiscentre.com

[Unregistered frog]

Unreg, your protestations are hollow indeed, it is obvious from your question that you are self taught, or badly taught, and require more help. This help is "training" no matter what you choose to call it, and we don't do it. Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me otherwise. I paid my money and took the time to become skilled and practised as have others on this board, and we have little sympathy for those who choose to take short cuts and cheat their clients in the process. That is why we so often get posters who claim to have visited several so called practitioners and have never got the results they asked for. As for the fact that YOU didn't post the question that elicited the reply about teaching from Merlin, so what, you read the bloody thing didn't you?

terry i can sence anger in this post, i myself am self taught, ok i dont really go in for hypnotherapy i'm more pub hypnosis but i have helped people with the basics, the best trainers in the world can only teach what they have read in books and from personel experiences which are always hard to get accross

i think maybe you have realised this in the past, maybe everything you payed to learn was all to be found in your local library all along and your bitter at the waste of money, or maybe you think it was a good way to spend your money because it makes you feel like mr big on a forum like this, what ever reason discouraging people to learn about hypnosis what ever routhe they choose isn't a very nice thing to do

as for you unregistered learn in whatever way you feel comfortable some people belive in freedom of infomation and will be glad to help you in any way they can

[Don]

terry i can sence anger in this post,
Mind reading. kewl.

i myself am self taught,
Ah. Since Terry identified this and pointed out its limitations, your feel a defensive response is necessary.

... the best trainers in the world can only teach what they have read in books and from personel experiences which are always hard to get accross

It sounds to me like you either had a poor trainer or simply have an interesting belief system without any basis in reality.

i think maybe you have realised this in the past, maybe everything you payed to learn was all to be found in your local library all along and your bitter at the waste of money, or maybe you think it was a good way to spend your money because it makes you feel like mr big on a forum like this, what ever reason discouraging people to learn about hypnosis what ever routhe they choose isn't a very nice thing to do[quote]

From your words you're assuming that learning hypnosis requires reading books only, and no personal training. You also sound resentful of people who have had training and are assuming that people such as Terry only take in-person trainings and never cracked a book. Frankly, my guess is that Terry has read and studied more books on hypnosis than you've ever seen, but that's just a guess.

[quote]as for you unregistered learn in whatever way you feel comfortable some people belive in freedom of infomation and will be glad to help you in any way they can

That's very true. And telling a person how to get the best help to achieve their goals is great help. Unfortunately, some people really don't like to hear it.

[Poodle]

One induction does NOT work all the time. The Modified Dave Elman captures around 94% of clientele. It would do you no good to graph this out as each individual is DIFFERENT and the reason they came to see you is different. If hypnosis were just a one-size-fits all, we could have 12 nice darkened rooms with clients in recliners, put on ear phones and have an assistant plug in the appropriate CD, weight loss, depression, whatever, and never even have to see the client and just have someone collect the money upon their departure.

There seems to be some confusion here as to Poodle and Terry. I am the one who said, NOT Terry. Also, if Terry KNOWS you are a skilled practitioner and needs a little help, he is the FIRST one in line to give it.

Yes, you can learn some inductions in a matter of days, but knowing them and being able to deliver them correctly takes TIME, lots of TIME and practice. Then you have a client in trance, what now brown cow?

Again, I repeat -- this is NOT a teaching forum; however, I'm quite sure the owners of this website would be more than glad to teach you the proper ways of hypnosis and hypnotherapy together with other healing modalities

[Unregistered2]

Unreg,
I know you've already had replies to this but here is my contribution:
You refer to a 'Heavy State of Hypnosis' and I believe it would be good for you to understand what that phrase (and it is your phrase) really means. So please really think about what you mean and what you are trying to achieve.

When we use words like 'going deeper' what we really mean is that the subject is becoming more open to suggestion - which is where the power of hypnosis lies - and there are many ways of achieving this. Dave Elman's techniques worked great for Dave Elman and my techniques work great for me. Its important to find that unique pattern which works for you, everytime - and you will find it.
Firstly learn to recognise the signs of Hypnosis and score your client's 'depth of trance' (whatever that means to you) out of, say, 100. Now, either make notes of the techniques you used or, even better, record each session. Then you build a matrix in a computer spreadsheet or on paper and over time you'll see 'your' powerful patterns emerging. Keep scoring - keep refining. One day, someone will ask you how you get such 'depth' and you won't be able to give them some magic words - just tell them they must work at it.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards
John

www.thehypnosiscentre.com


Hello John,

it's me again. It took some time till I came here again to write, and I will reply to your mail first, as it will take the fewest time.

"(and it is your phrase)"
No, it isn't, but I know why you think so.

I think I will register to make things easy and claear without ambiguity.
I wonder if I can change my profile later, when I have gone through the procedure, and if I can add an email address when I haven't given one at registration.

Your posting was very helpful and interesting, and I consider that's not only true for me. My thanks!

"When we use words like 'going deeper' what we really mean is that the subject is becoming more open to suggestion - which is where the power of hypnosis lies - and there are many ways of achieving this"

I agree with you. Suggestibility is more important than relaxation.
Actually, in some instances someone is deeply relaxed, but not in a very suggestible state, and there are other times when somebody is in a state of extreme suggestibility and not very relaxed (neither mentally nor somatically).

When you have somone in a very suggestible state you can take him into a very relaxed state too, if required, just by giving him some suggestions.
Suggestibility is more important cause it means the degree of cooperation of the subconcious mind insome respects, though in some instances the hypnotic suggestibility somone is showing is something different from his readiness to alter psychologigally and to change his behavior... and vice versus.