Hypothyroidism - Treatment?

[Jack]

Hello All,

Hypothyroidism is a condition mainly affecting women in which the thyroid gland gradually ceases to function causing memory loss, excessive tiredness, weight gain, confusion, muscle weakness, thinning hair and a host of other unpleasant symptoms.

It is usually medically diagnosed by checking for the presence of antibodies to the T4 and T3 thyroid hormones. If present the patient will be diagnosed with hypothyroidism.

The medical way to treat this condition is to use synthetic thyroxine (levothyroxine). Sometimes this works and sometimes it does not. What it does do is to accelerate the manner in which the thyroid gland atrophies and effectively prevent the production of any further natural thyroxine, so the patient, once started on the synthetic hormone is on it for life. There is also a porcine thyroxine that may be used in certain countries, but it has the same effect.

Now, although I have not treated anyone for hypothyroidism a medical colleague approached me with a request for possible treatment modalities using hypnotherapy since he was unhappy with the success rate of the medical treatment.

I understand that in some localities this would be considered a medical problem and beyond the jurisdiction of hypnotherapy, but hypothetically, if you were faced with a client with this condition, and no legal restrictions, what would be your approach?

Jack

[Poodle]

People I know with it that take the meds are extremely happy with the outcomes. I would not do it as I don't have expertise in that area (as in definitely out of my scope of practice) but I surmise hypnosis should take care of it. Maybe Merlin? or Terry?

[Docresults]

Jack,

Back when I had the PC hypnosis center up and running I had a few of those cases you speak about and hypnosis works wonderfully.

Later , after I learned it, I even used Donna Eden's Energy Medicine thyroid protocol to reverse the issue. It works as well.

To Your Best,
Doc

"A friend in need, is a pest indeed..."
My Grampa Vetter

[Terry (existing)]

Jack, no experience of course, since it is a medical problem, but hyperthetically, if faced with such a query, I am a firm believer in the body being able to counter any failures by taking another route. I would therefor consider attempting to reactivate the thyroid and persuading the body to once again produce what was needed to reverse the situation. How? at this point I have no idea, but by reading up on the problem, as I believe you have already done, or better yet, consulting your medical friend, and picking his brain, I would expect to come up with a solution, and I will give it some thought now. If I do arrive at what I percieve as a reasonable course of action, I will email you, since I feel it would not be proper to post for general review, this being a rather delicate matter for me certainly, since I have always refrained from being involved in medical problems to date.
I do understand however, that in the UK the situation is much more fluid than it is on this side of the pond, and there such ethics don't apply. Is that true?

[Jack]

Pood, there appears to be many women here in the UK who are not satisfied with the synthetic hormone, and my doctor friend has come across several - which is why he asked me for advice. For once I found myself at a loss.

Doc, thanks for that but how would you begin to treat using hypnosis? My focus would be on the auto-immune system but since AIDS is a viral disease creating an auto-immune response and I have had little success with that..is there another way? NLP can be quite useful when used for allergic responses, but this is not quite the same thing since we usually know what the allergen is and how it first appeared. In this case it is antibodies, but I have never heard of a case where antibodies can be eliminated. Without such an elimination the thyroid would continue to be attacked, unless they can be persuaded to ignore the thyroid, but since they are designed specifically to attack T3 and T4 that seems a faint hope.

Had a look at Donna Eden's ideas, but I fear that the medical profession may not be able to come to terms with it. They still have problems with hypnotherapy. But I will investigate further.

Terry, thanks for that, we think along the same lines - if you have any ideas I would welcome them.

It is a lot freer in the UK, but it is always wise to involve medical practitioners with problems perceived as medical.


Jack

[Docresults]

Jack,

There are multiple ways and one of the best I used was...

This was the overall strategy. The words would be different for the individual based on feedback from them.

What's happening with the Thyroid is a learned behavior. Ask the body to remember a time when the Thyroid was strong and healthy or what that would look like and feel like, so that it could handle anything that comes along. Ask the body to remember exactly how the body is functioning when it is in perfect health and how antibodies are handled easily, effortlessly and naturally. How every organ, every gland, every cell is doing it's job perfectly and how strength and health is the natural results.

You could build and enhance this picture and feel and take this and put it throughout the past and the future. While you are at it develop some mental coping mechanisms that are generative and recursive.

To Your Best,
Doc

"A mind is a terrible thing to uugh... I forgot."
My Grampa Vetter

[Jack]

Thanks for your feedback, Doc.

My friend explained that the current thinking was that either a) the condition was simply age related or b) post viral. It would be difficult to see either of these as learned behaviour, but that presupposes either a) or b) is accurate, so I will certainly add your suggestions to my thinking.

The post viral thing interests me because it would explain where the antibodies came from. In that case it might be treated as an allergic reaction, problematic though that might be.

Jack

[Docresults]

Thanks for your feedback, Doc.

My friend explained that the current thinking was that either a) the condition was simply age related or b) post viral. It would be difficult to see either of these as learned behaviour, but that presupposes either a) or b) is accurate, so I will certainly add your suggestions to my thinking.

The post viral thing interests me because it would explain where the antibodies came from. In that case it might be treated as an allergic reaction, problematic though that might be.

Jack

Jack,

Think about it like this...

Anything related to age is a learned phenomena. (Learned in the sense of modeled or patterned.)

Also, structural wise an allergy is like a phobia, a one time learning experience. The body learned to respond to a unharmful cause as if it were harmful.

Remember it is all metaphor even if someone thinks it is really what's going on.

You could use 6 step re-framing and or part of it and get the creative part of the mind to come up with 30 different, more useful ways to handle the situation and to pick the top three and integrate them into the body system with a feedback loop that keep the other 27 behaviors available and to refine the ones that are in use using the background and resources of the other 27 until what the body perceives as perfect health is achieved.

To Your Best,
Doc

"All I want is a warm bed, a kind word and unlimited power."
My Grampa Vetter

[Stoic]

I wonder, if hypnosis can help IgG Antibodies. Since these tend to stay around for an extended period of time. Maybe if it was IgM or IgE AB's but can the body actually filter the IgG antibodies?
From a little description I read about the specific autoimmune response it seams like it is caused primarily by IgG AB's due to one comment: "Thyroid antibodies may remain for years after the disease has been adequately treated and the patient is on thyroid hormone replacement."
Allergic reactions are categorically different IMHO because they function on IgE Antibodies.
Interesting stuff nevertheless.

I could see someone administering whatever the Antibodies are sensitive to(TSH maybe?) in order to deplete the supply of antibodies in case of pure IgG reaction.

[Stoic]

I could see someone administering whatever the Antibodies are sensitive to(TSH maybe?) in order to deplete the supply of antibodies in case of pure IgG reaction.

Never mind that, due to the memory cells in your bone marrow from the initial reaction I doubt that the above suggestion would work.

[Jack]

Yes, that is my problem with commonplace solutions to hypothyroidism, which I think have been used unsuccessfully before.

I can six step mightily, reframe every reaction I can find, but the antibodies remain and are eating the thyroid. Persuading them to have a different task might be the way forward but these chaps are very specific, so I understand.

Jack

[Stoic]

Maybe stop memory cell function or antibody production using hypnosis, then try and deplete the supply already there by giving the hormone?

If language is a barrier in directing the unconscious attention to a certain function. I could see increasing and decreasing the variable at hand by hand and having the unconscious notice the difference and deducing more accurately what is meant by "Reduce this specific AB production".

The only problem is, how do you know that the production is stopped? With all the IgG's floating everywhere. I guess you could observe the titer, hoping it drops fast enough to notice.

I'm just brain storming... this topic got me all kinds of excited. Love puzzles!

[Don]

Jack and Stoic, you're also assuming that there is only one cause to this problem and are demanding that there be only one cure for everyone. This is a very allopathic attitude and does not fit the hypnotherpeutic paradigm. Also, your just working too hard!

This is sort of like saying you'd like a new car but the only way you'll accept it is if you work selling yo-yos for 20 years and take the money to one car dealer and buy only one type of car. There are so many other options out there!

I would suggest that Doc has a much better focus: trust your client and your client's unconscious. You may not know the cause and the client may not consciously know what's going on, but the client's unconscious is completely in charge.

If you follow this paradigm and Doc's model, you're far more likely to have success.

[Terry (existing)]

Yes it is an excellent question, but I would be happier if it were being discussed somewere less public. Jack has already pointed out some possible problems in the various treatments, and I have visions of someone who knows too little dabbling instead of leaving the job to those who know enough to take proper care to do no harm. I would suggest that all communications on this be sent via email directly to Jack as was mine, since this is one way to use our board contacts that is legitimate, usefull, but also not for public consumption. Incidentally Jack, my suggestions presumed that you would be investigating results as you went via the subconcious of the client, and not presuming on that success without checking on where to problem lay.

[Stoic]

Allopathic attitude? Yes, true. Why?
I rely on the medical diagnosis for the possible causes and outcomes of this phenomena. Is that the best route? Not sure. Would it be possible other ways? Most likely, as you pointed out.

Now, all this talk. Yet your point still stands. If Doc's suggestion works for this specific situation, then I would feel pretty stupid for selling yo-yos for 20 years(not really, mental exercise is still a good outcome). However, if it proves ineffective, which I have NO insight on the probability. I might consider doing the yo-yo thing until I/we learn more effective ways.


Hi, my name is Stoic and I have a problem with over-complicating stuff. :)

I have a tangent I'm interested in delving into, so I'll start a new thread about that. (Unconscious language)

[Jack]

My natural inclination would be to do as you suggest, Don, it is what I do for 90% of my therapeutic time, but having talked to a number of hypnotherapy colleagues who have worked with both hyper and hypothyroidism they are of the opinion that normal thinking is not applicable with this condition. That does not mean to say I would disregard it, but I am looking for a different approach.

An example: a friend of mine deals with quite a few HIV/AIDS cases - I have dealt with only three - and she has had zero success using the paradigm you suggest. My own rate is also zero - my clients have died. You could say that we are both poor therapists, but I would would argue that whilst I may be that on some occasions, she most definitely is not and is a truly excellent therapist in other areas.

So, what is going on?

Well, I think it is easy to get stuck in the suggested approach and narrow your options to only the standard model of therapy, the accepted wisdom that the subconscious knows what is going on. This may be true, I have believed this for most of my life and I have no proof that it is not but since it appears not to work in this instance we perhaps have to move a little outside the box of belief and examine other areas. That does not mean throwing away the old ideas, just searching for other angles.

This is why I was interested in what Stoic had to say. Brainstorming is genuinely applicable here since we all have a tendency to run along in the same ruts without realising it and although I appreciate being told what I already know, I much prefer being told what I don't know.:)

Jack

[Jack]

Your point about the public nature of this question is a good one Terry, but in truth I was hoping for input not only from the more experienced people but also from novices and even visitors who might perhaps have this condition. But I take the point and would ask if anybody has any therapeutic suggestions or strategies rather than generalised comment that they PM me.

And with regard to your last point you presume correctly.;)

Jack

[Docresults]

Hello All,

Just a reminder. depending on or relying on a medical diagnosis is an extremely limited model. It pretty much limits all other models (it is exclusive instead of inclusive).

It is dealing with the cake as it comes out of the oven and doesn't give much thought or consideration of what went into the mixing bowel BEFORE the cake got to the oven.

Now Jack has posted that he has talked to a number of hypnotherapy colleagues who have worked with both hyper and hypothyroidism they are of the opinion that normal thinking is not applicable with this condition.

I will suggest that Jack is correct normal thinking takes process thinking and contextualizes it. (That is what most hypnotist do.) I got the same results as others not very good until I tweaked the process. (Go back and read what I wrote and HOW is it different than most re-framing, parts, etc work. What did I add in that is not usually there? Same process but with some important distinctions.

Also in regards to the HIV/AIDS and the hypothyroid-isms, besides the work on the mental, emotional, spiritual side (Ala hypnosis, Spiritual Technology's, energy work, etc.) I would also address the physical cellular side with the nutraceutical that I use now. It is outside of the medical model and deals with the nutritional side which the medical community give very little attention to... I suspect there is not enough money in it for them to get behind it.

Just some other thoughts to consider...


To Your Best,
Doc

"An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys."
My Grampa Vetter

[Don]

Jack, I think you have a great question: with HIV/AIDS the results have not been positive. I'm sorry you lost your clients. My best friend for ten years died from ARC. You ask, "what is going on?"

For a moment, let's take that question out of the seriousness of HIV/AIDS and change it to something seen as far more benign, say nail biting.

If you had a client who had unwanted nail biting behavior and your hypnotherapy did not work, what assumptions would you make on changing your direction. I can think of several:

Deal with secondary benefits.
Discover actual cause.
Change to parts therapy if using something else.
Add to TLT if not using it.
Give difficult assignments and/or charge more for further work to increase value to client.

I'm sure there are many more. These all follow the hypnotherapeutic paradigm. And if, after all of those changes the client did not respond, I would assume that I did not have good rapport and would refer the client to another hypnotherapist.

It seems to me that most HIV/AIDS clients will already have had a carload of allopathic indoctrination. They will scour the internet, journals, books,and newspapers for hope from an allopathic view.

My guess is that you, like other hypnotherapists, spend some time with new clients helping the overcome their misconceptions, misunderstandings, and fears about hypnosis. Where do they get this errant information? From the internet, journals, books, newspapers, movies, etc. Hmmmm. Do you see the similarity?

Now, I am going to state right here that I have not worked with HIV/AIDS clients. But if I did, I would not abandon my paradigm and move into their belief system. Rather, I would focus on moving them to my paradigm.

I would also recognize that nothing I do is going to change the fact that they are going to be looking in a wide variety of media for allopathic treatments. That means if I work with them to bring them to my paradigm for an hour or two a week, they are probably spending ten times that receiving a bombardment of information from other paradigms. And although each bit of information will not have the strength of effect of a good hypnotherapy session, Coué pointed out that such a repetition will have an effect.

I would suggest, therefore, that what you are experiencing is what I would call the "window-shade problem." You open the shade and they go home and pull it down. You could do this forever and the negative results would be the same.

The solution, I would contend, is in working with both the conscious and unconscious, making clear that there are two completely separate systems to change the situation. They are not the same and do not follow the same rules, although the ultimate goal is the same. That is, the allopathic bombardment must not ruin the hypnotherapy any more than the hypnotherapy should in any way hinder the medical treatment.

Sometimes, being reminded of what we know is very valuable.

[Poodle]

I have one comment. I found out last night that "Parts" isn't the same for all of us. This came as quite a shock. Apparently I am used to people around here where we all have the same definition. :confused:

[Jack]

Thanks for your input Don, I understand what you are saying but the comparison between HIV/AIDS and nailbiting is a bit of a stretch.

I agree with everything you say about nailbiting. Couldn't agree more. But it doesn't translate to into some areas, and this I where I see flexibility as the key.

Bandler would move into any belief system to achieve change and so would I. Sticking with a hypnotherapeutic model without recognition of the allopathic one is to see only one angle of the problem. It is like having a brainstorming session and saying 'come up with any ideas but keep out of this area'.

I don't know if this is the result of the division between medicine and hypnotherapy in the US, but here in the UK I work with medical doctors all the time and find their input mostly valuable, if sometimes a little archaic. But they are intelligent and can be educated.;)

HIV/AIDS clients do have the manual as you suggest. Since they have it my instinct would be to use it, subtly rewriting it rather than denouncing its provenance. And rather than separating the allopathic and hypnotherapeutic, or the conscious and subconscious, I usually make no distinction to the client in these cases, but would if the occasion demanded it. What I am trying to say is that I am not interested in whether or not I can convince a client that the answer to all ills lies in the subconscious, but rather that the answer lies in a location that together we can find the co-ordinates of. I suspect that is what you are saying too.

Which is why I am trying to gather information. Yours, Doc's, Stoic's, Pood's, Terry's are all great sources, but information is just that; it only becomes a strategy when you can see the location of change and use the co-ordinates to get there.

And you or I will find different co-ordinates from the information to reach the same location.

Jack

[Docresults]

Hello JAck,

Just a reminder. depending on or relying on a medical diagnosis is an extremely limited model. It pretty much limits all other models (it is exclusive instead of inclusive).

It is dealing with the cake as it comes out of the oven and doesn't give much thought or consideration of what went into the mixing bowel BEFORE the cake got to the oven.

Now Jack has posted that he has talked to a number of hypnotherapy colleagues who have worked with both hyper and hypothyroidism they are of the opinion that normal thinking is not applicable with this condition.

I will suggest that Jack is correct normal thinking takes process thinking and contextualizes it. (That is what most hypnotist do.) I got the same results as others not very good until I tweaked the process. (Go back and read what I wrote and HOW is it different than most re-framing, parts, etc work. What did I add in that is not usually there? Same process but with some important distinctions.

Also in regards to the HIV/AIDS and the hypothyroid-isms, besides the work on the mental, emotional, spiritual side (Ala hypnosis, Spiritual Technology's, energy work, etc.) I would also address the physical cellular side with the nutraceutical that I use now. It is outside of the medical model and deals with the nutritional side which the medical community give very little attention to... I suspect there is not enough money in it for them to get behind it.

Just some other thoughts to consider...


To Your Best,
Doc

"An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys."
My Grampa Vetter

[Don]

Thanks for your input Don, I understand what you are saying but the comparison between HIV/AIDS and nailbiting is a bit of a stretch.

Not really. The "secret" that many AIDS-fighting groups don't want people to know is that it is difficult to become HIV+ via sexual contact unless you have a weakened immune system. Since it has been shown that the mind can have strong effects on the immune system, I would contend that it is not a stretch.

To use a film allegory, it appeared easy to Luke Skywalker to use "the force" to move a small object, but impossible to move a large one. Yoda told him that there is no difference.

I realize that the allegory was a movie, but I would contend that the situation is the same. There is no difference.

However, as long as you, as hypnotherapist/NLP practitioner thinks there is a difference, there is a difference. If you don't think you will get a positive result with a client, you won't.

HIV/AIDS clients do have the manual as you suggest. Since they have it my instinct would be to use it, subtly rewriting it rather than denouncing its provenance. And rather than separating the allopathic and hypnotherapeutic, or the conscious and subconscious, I usually make no distinction to the client in these cases, but would if the occasion demanded it. What I am trying to say is that I am not interested in whether or not I can convince a client that the answer to all ills lies in the subconscious, but rather that the answer lies in a location that together we can find the co-ordinates of. I suspect that is what you are saying too.

I think you misunderstood what I suggested. I was not saying that we in any instance should "denounce" allopathic medical treatment. What I am suggesting is the clarification to the client that we work under different paradigms and both are valid. It is the confusing of the paradigms--the seeking of identity between them--which acts to counter both, and with the omnipresent presentation of the allopathic viewpoint, the hypnotherapeutic falls to the side.

[Terry (existing)]

I wonder Doc, if Grampa's comment was an intentional warning for this thread:) Certainly it seems I must now change my mind about it. I started by feeling that we were going beyond what was proper for a public forum, but now I have changed my mind. I see how delicately others are handling the subject, and recognise that it has offered a glimps of how we can all pull together regardless of personal gain, to help one another to grow in knowledge that we can then all apply. No single individual will amass all that has been said here, yet each will now absorb it, and become better for it in some way, even if we never use it. Thanks Jack for bringing it up.
As Grampa said, an unbreakable toy CAN be used to break others, but I suggest it becomes unbreakable only when it is developed through study of those other toys, and the boys who use them.:D

[Connie]

As Grampa said, an unbreakable toy CAN be used to break others, but I suggest it becomes unbreakable only when it is developed through study of those other toys, and the boys who use them.:D

Doc didn't limit the toy-play to boys only!

[Jack]

Hello Doc,

Don't think I was relying on medical diagnosis but neither am I relying exclusively on the therapeutic arts either. The key to all this may well be flexibility, and that involves using everything including the medical.

Well, I have re-read what you said about reframing and unfortunately my intelligence does not stretch to seeing the difference between what I would normally do and what you have written. If you would be kind enough to explain what you mean, either publicly or by PM, whichever you feel appropriate, I would be grateful.

Jack

[Jack]

Not really. The "secret" that many AIDS-fighting groups don't want people to know is that it is difficult to become HIV+ via sexual contact unless you have a weakened immune system. Since it has been shown that the mind can have strong effects on the immune system, I would contend that it is not a stretch.

You are confusing categories of things, Don. Nailbiting and HIV/AIDS are not in the same category. It is like saying your broken leg is like a broken table leg. It is true that they are both legs, but the comparison ends there.

Of course the 'mind' can influence the immune system. The immune system plays an important part in HIV/AIDS. But then to go on and say that because the 'mind' has an influence on nailbiting the two situations are comparable is, as I said a stretch.

And I would like to know where you got your information that HIV can only be contracted via a weakened immune system because it is not the information I have.

However, as long as you, as hypnotherapist/NLP practitioner thinks there is a difference, there is a difference. If you don't think you will get a positive result with a client, you won't.

I only think there is a difference because there is. To believe that two things which have only one commonality and many differences are the same would be the height of foolishness. And I do not subscribe to the old saw you mention above, there are many occasions on which I have begun treatment of a client with the thought that it would not work and it has. To be 100% confident that what you are doing will work all of the time is a self-delusion and to be perfectly honest slightly insane.

I think you misunderstood what I suggested. I was not saying that we in any instance should "denounce" allopathic medical treatment. What I am suggesting is the clarification to the client that we work under different paradigms and both are valid. It is the confusing of the paradigms--the seeking of identity between them--which acts to counter both, and with the omnipresent presentation of the allopathic viewpoint, the hypnotherapeutic falls to the side.

Well, we differ in approach. I work with the client's belief system and if that belief is in allopathic medicine then I am not going to waste my time on a crusade to change it. If you want to do that then good luck to you. My instinct and experience tells me that any belief paradigm can be used for the client's benefit, and I don't care what that belief is.

Contrary to what you say, I believe that there are areas of commonality between the allopathic and the therapeutic. Sticking any form of healing into rigid boxes is not in the best interests of the client, but may do something for the therapist's sense of purpose and self worth, I suppose.

I try to respect the client's subconscious world view and not impose my ideas or prejudices about what that view should be. Unless it doesn't work, then I do something else.

Flexibility, not rigidity.

Jack

[Don]

Well, Jack, we will have to agree to disagree.

Where did I get my information about HIV being difficult to pass unless the immune system is weakened? The Centers for Disease Control. They point out that the odds of a healthy person getting AIDS from unprotected genital sex with a HIV+ person is about one in 5,000. This was reported in the Wall Street Journal.

As I wrote, I'm not going to try to tell a person that allopathy is wrong or try to change that belief. Rather, I'm going to let a person know that I work with another paradigm. Of course there is overlap between the two--but they are not the same.

According to allopathic medicine, nicotine is more addictive than heroin. As a hypnotherapist, it would be stupid to try and help a person to break that difficult addiction. And yet, hypnotherapists help people stop smoking every day.

[Docresults]

Well, I have re-read what you said about reframing and unfortunately my intelligence does not stretch to seeing the difference between what I would normally do and what you have written. If you would be kind enough to explain what you mean, either publicly or by PM, whichever you feel appropriate, I would be grateful.

Jack

Jack,

You may do different than the normal reframing or 6 step reframing. That is great.

The difference that usually makes the difference is permission and agreement with the Sub/Unconscious to tweek the process in the middle of the process and setting up generative (on-going) change as the process. It is setting the pattern of non-patterning, experimentation and flexible curiosity from the unconscious/body side into the system to effect optimum health.

The unconscious/body loves patterns (or at least runs mostly patterns, not very big on experimentation or flexibility) and giving it a larger pattern - generative (non-patterning) vs. remedial (patterns) is a useful thing to have happen.

As far as the physical body is concerned, physically everything starts and ends with the cells. Strengthening and giving health to the cells (thyroid) will decrease the effectiveness of any antibodies that are present. (That is why I use the nutraceutical I use.)

You see I am suggesting working with the mind and the body from two different angles that medicine hardly even considers. Medicine focuses on chemicals and pretty much ignores mental and nutritional focuses.

Using the premise of antibodies that attack the thyroid... Chemically is only one way of dealing with the issue. Drugs are designed to stop the antibodies not build the thyroid. Drugs are designed to stop disease not improve health. Also every single drug has a print out (in the US) from the pharmacist of which organ and/or gland a particular drug will destroy. Since every drug has side effects I would suggest they being the last thing in the mix not the first.

To Your Best,
Doc

"Borderline psychotic with hermit-like tendencies."
My Grampa Vetter

[Don]

The unconscious/body loves patterns (or at least runs mostly patterns, not very big on experimentation or flexibility) and giving it a larger pattern - generative (non-patterning) vs. remedial (patterns) is a useful thing to have happen.

Indeed.

Back when I was studying experimental music at UCSD, we listened to the "contemporary" 20th century composers. Music, until that period, was based on concepts such as repetition, stress and release, etc. But some of the contemporary composers did everything they could to erase all previous concepts and come up with something new.

One composer based music on tossing the I Ching. Another used basic formulas for modifying original melody lines (with no repeating notes) for atonal concepts.

I frustrated my professor every time I said, "But I can hear chords! I can hear repeated patterns!"

"No," he insisted. "There are no repeated patterns and no chords." I finally gave in, but, like Galileo, I knew I heard the patterns.

[Perhaps the ultimate form of contemporary atonal music was a piece called 4?33? by John Cage. A pianist walks onto the stage, sits at the piano, opens it up, and just sits there for 4 1/2 minutes. The idea is that people in the audience will become uncomfortable and start shuffling, moving, whispering, coughing, etc., which formed the "music" of the piece. Obviously random and unique at each performance. Personally I prefer Berio.]

[Merlin]

Hi Jack,
As far as I know, any hypnotist can work with medical ailments, they just sometimes need a referral.

You started off with a shopping list of symptoms and a pronouncement that X+Y+Z symptoms = Q disease in medical terms. (antibodies in the case posted)

But what is it really?
Either an injury or attack from bio-critters causing an injury, or it's a decision of the mind.
A bad decision, but a decision nevertheless.

Start by asking the mind which is the case.
If bio-critters, then an anti-bio-critter (antibiotic) is needed.
(sometimes bio-critters are assumed not to exist, as in ulsers for many years).

Assuming a decision of the mind, then find out when the decision was made and reframe the circumstances about that decision.

Once the decision is corrected (love/forgiveness applied as needed),
then ask the mind about healing.
Suggest that the appropriate levels of hormones be created.
Regression often works well here.
Regress to a time when there was enough hormones and ask that those levels be maintained.

[Merlin]

Jack,
Have you tried getting the thyroid to give the antibodies something to 'eat'?

[Merlin]

We can sell yo-yos for everything.
But sometimes there's a better way.

[Merlin]

Side note:
AIDS hides, as do all virus (viruses/virii ::neither plural is quite right)

Since the mind cannot find them, it often uses a shotgun approach, killing all possibly infected cells.
Difficult for hypnosis alone to fix.

[Merlin]

Remember Don,
sad as may be the case, the CDC is a political organisation and not 100% reliable.

[parsa]

How does something hide from the mind?

[Don]

I agree, Merlin. That's why they don't come out and state this information more often. There is very strong political pressure from both sides of the political spectrum to allow the belief that if you look at someone who is HIV+ you're going to come down with AIDS in the next 15 minutes. This was also fully described in the WSJ article.

I'm not suggesting that people should abandon safe sex practices. I'm saying that people should abandon paranoia based on myths.

[Don]

I disagree. AIDS does not hide. AIDS is not a virus. AIDS is a syndrome, a wide-ranging group of symptoms some of which are associated with having HIV. Nobody has ever died from AIDS. Many thousands have died from conditions related to AIDS.

[Merlin]

I agree Don.
Just saying the CDC isn't the authority we might hope for.

[Jack]

Don, my understanding is that the efficiency of transmission of the HIV virus is dependent upon access to the bloodstream. Access to the bloodstream is most commonly achieved through tears, cuts or lesions. In heterosexual penetrative vaginal sex tears, cuts and lesions occur infrequently, but in both heterosexual and homosexual penetrative anal sex their occurrence is more frequent. This is not a myth and may account for the initial explosion of HIV within the homosexual community, followed by the rise in HIV in the heterosexual community as heterosexual anal sex became more acceptable in Western societies. It is interesting to note that in some African countries where heterosexual anal sex is used as a method of birth control HIV infection is very high.

In any viral invasion a weakened immune system would probably allow easier access, so I don't disagree with that postulate, but I agree with Merlin that it is difficult to believe any figures from politically influenced organisations.

Of course there is overlap between the two--but they are not the same.

I did not say that they were. What I said was that I do not attach any significance to whatever difference may or may not exist. Whatever reality the client is in is useful, so there is no need to make distinctions.

According to allopathic medicine, nicotine is more addictive than heroin. As a hypnotherapist, it would be stupid to try and help a person to break that difficult addiction. And yet, hypnotherapists help people stop smoking every day.

Agreed, but I don't know what it proves apart from the fact that allopathic medicine sometimes fails to understand the emotional components in an addiction or a habit. Many hypnotherapists also fail to understand the physical components in an illness, so it is six of one and half a dozen of the other I think.

My own feeling is that in therapy you use whatever you have and we all have different ways of working. I really don't care if the client believes the moon is green cheese unless it is detrimental to the outcome we are seeking together or can be used to achieve that outcome. Otherwise it is only a side road in the process and not worth exploring.

Jack

[Don]

Jack,

You are correct about the necessity of HIV to enter the bloodstream. The belief that tears can transfer HIV is vastly exaggerated. Although the explanation of vaginal vs. anal tears has some validity, it is usually stressed in isolation, making it of questionable validity. By that I mean research has focused on that mode of transfer while ignoring the role of the use of illegal drugs has in weakening the immune system and allowing HIV to become viable.

The problem with Africa, as you describe it, is the usual media attribution. However, what you miss is that the announcement of HIV rates in Africa is, by local laws and UN rules, not based on blood tests but on observation of symptomology. As a result, many little-known ("orphan") diseases which never received any funding are simply defined as AIDS because of similar symptoms, not because of any sign of HIV. Further, the sanitary conditions in many locations in Africa are not up to those in major cities and more industrialized countries, leading to weakening of the immune system.

Is there any research group that is not political? :)

I agree that we should use what the client gives us. But that is the start, not the end. And I would not agree that we should fall into their trance of beliefs, especially when that trance is opposed to the hypnotherapeutic paradigm.

[Jack]

Jack,
Have you tried getting the thyroid to give the antibodies something to 'eat'?

Thanks for the suggestion. Not yet. Haven't tried anything at all, Merlin, hence the reason for the question. What would you suggest I gave it to eat?

Jack

[Jack]

My inclination is to do as you suggest since I agree with most of it, but the reason I couched my question in the terminology I did was to ensure that people other than 'the usual suspects' gave an opinion.

I know Don favours the hypnotherapeutic modality but even though I have been an hypnotherapist for a very long time I actually don't give a stuff about what I use to help cause change - if I could find a reasonably priced ju-ju stick that works I would use that, as long as the client buys into it.

Anyway, thank for your input.

Jack

[Merlin]

Anything you determine it wants.
Just have the body produce excess.

**WARNING**
This method must be monitored closely.
Lest too much of something be made, which can be worse than original problems.
**WARNING**

Warning is not for you, Jack, but others who might try this.
Introducing new imbalances can be a real problem.

[Merlin]

the reason I couched my question in the terminology I did was to ensure that people other than 'the usual suspects' gave an opinion.
Psssst...
Don't look now...




But your wisdom is showing.

[quote] if I could find a reasonably priced ju-ju stick that works I would use that, as long as the client buys into it.[quote]

Mine works good.
But it's best if you advertise this method first, to build expectation.
Then, be appropriately costumed.
You, and your office.

Since I'm a sorceress,
I can get away with many methods. <WEG> (Wicked/Evil Grin)

[Jack]

I'll add it to the list of possibles, Merlin. Cheers.

Jack

[Jack]

Psssst...

Sometimes but not always.;)

Jack

[michele]

hi guys i'm new to this sight. I came across this because i'm looking for ways to deal with the stress and the side affects of thyroid cancer. Doctors don't tell you what you're in for when your told that you have to have your thyroid gland(s) removed because of cancer. There are a lot of side effects that i don't think that they realize can drive a normal person nuts. All they do is say that you are now hypo and not hyper, prescribe anti-depressants and vitamins and hormone replacements. I'm not saying that someone with hypothyroidism is different because from what I can find the effects are the same. Weight gain, depression, anxiety are to name a few. I'm all for hypnosis if that will help. My doctor says that I'm now bi-polar. Anyway, just talk to the person and find out what's the problem. Most of the time no one wants to talk to us before they try to fix the problem. Oh, the replacement medication and anti-depressants are a big part of the weight gain aside from having no metabolism.
thanks for listening

[Poodle]

Did the meds work at all correctly in the beginning or has it continually been like this? If the drugs lost efficacy, you can always replace them hypnotically and control them at proper levels. If drug therapy totally was NEVER satisfactory, I would go with Doc's ideas.

[Poodle]

Ever so sorry to read about what's been going on in your life but you may be happy to know that many of us work with cancer patients for FREE. Yes, that is correct. FREE! You definitely have enough on your plate to deal with so let us help you get it down to a good size where you can live very happily with it. Now Michele, when you come to us don't tell us words like "depression", "anxiety". Those are medical words. We would be making you feel happier and unstressed. You still have a metabolism as all the cells in your body are doing something. It can be raised hypnotically if your "inner mind" wishes to accept the suggestion without causing any harm to you.

It's difficult. I know = been there, done that! You will survive and be better than ever. Hope you can find someone locally that will work with you and your issues. Big hug, Pood :)

[Jack]

Thanks for your post, Michele.

You know when a doctor says you are bi-polar? When they cannot understand why you should be depressed one minute and hyper the next.

Now, I know a lot of people either with cancer or in remission and the common factor amongst them all is that each day is different, and in some cases each hour is different. Feelings fluctuate between hopelessness and boundless optimism - a sort of roller coaster of emotions.

This is a totally natural response to any life-threatening illness. The happy chemicals and the sad chemicals begin to respond to all sorts of stimulii in an effort to find a way to deal with it all.

Doctors and psychiatrists like to call this a mental illness but IMO it is no more than a chemical imbalance caused by stress. Usually when the cancer threat is removed the stress goes too and so does the bi-polar.

One thing hypnotherapy is very good at is giving a person control of the roller coaster so that it travels at the speed you want, with the degree of ups and downs you want. You can decide just how much stress is useful to you and throw away the stress that is not useful.

Find a local professional, it should help a great deal. I wish you well.:)

Jack

[Poodle]

Do you do TLT? Another possible option.

[Jack]

Do you do TLT? Another possible option.

It is a possibility. I'm not qualified in TLT - apart from a seminar with the man - and tend to use my own version based around classic regression and progression. I am trying to synthesise something new, so it could be a component. Thanks, Pood.:)

Jack