More Advanced Stages of Hypnosis

[cabbagetom]

I have been practicing hypnosis recently as I recieved a number of good books on it for Christmas.
I have managed to get a few people into a trance state (with their permission)
Can anyone please give me some advice on how I can make them do certain things. I don't want to do anything malacious, but for example to make them laugh at a certain word.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You

[Don]

Sure. When they're in hypnosis, just tell them that when they hear the word they will find it hysterically funny and can't help but laugh as hard and as long as possible.

By the way, hypnosis isn't simply information such as I've just given you. It's a skill. To learn a skill you have to have someone train you, much as when you were learning to walk you had your parents to train you. Without the skill, the information is rather useless.

[Docresults]

By the way, hypnosis isn't simply information such as I've just given you. It's a skill. To learn a skill you have to have someone train you, much as when you were learning to walk you had your parents to train you. Without the skill, the information is rather useless.
Don,
I'm not sure walking is the best example as it is more like modeling and playing without formal instruction. Kinda of like learning a first language (speaking wise).

Although your example might be a good example for those who teach hypnosis to learn to model the behavior and skill to the student and play with the student in the same manner as a parent with a child learning to walk. Then every fall would be funny, the student would have more confidence and feel empowered to keep playing until they could do more than wobble, take a step and fall on their patard. Laugh, get up and keep playing.

You may be on to something there.

To Your Best,
Doc

"If space is a vacuum, who changes the bags?" My Grampa Vetter

[Terry (existing)]

I believe you when you say to don't want to do anything malicious, most people don't. Bad things arise, not from malice, but from ignorance.
Observe doctors in training, they practise under the eye of a skilled advisor, not alone by trial and error, as so many do who come here for advise. The best advise we can give, is to take proper training under the supervision of a skilled practitioner. As you read further, you will know why...
One of the biggest problems we face, is people anxious to put into action, something they have read about, but have no skill to do properly. What you ask is simple enough, so simple in fact that when you read what Don wrote, it must make you pause to realise that if you have to ask about something so simple, you are surely in danger of doing harm, even though you have no such intention.
If you read some of the other posts, you will notice that many complain that we are unwilling to help them, they think because we are being asked to do it for free. Fact is, we won't because we can see the possibilities of harm and they can't.
What would you do for example, if you got someone into a trance and couldn't get them to come out of it on command? I am betting you would panic, yet there is no reason to except ignorance of what might happen, and worry that you did something wrong. What would you do if you gave someone a suggestion that seemed simple at the time, and they went into a panic attack? Now that IS serious, and you would be right to be scared of what you had done. You could have done ireparable harm. It happens, often but a skilled practitioner knows exactly what to do, you don't....
Finally, even Don who is highly skilled and practised made a mistake when he offered you that advise. He forgot he was dealing with a total novice, and failed to tell you to remove all suggestions before you leave your friend or family member. If not the suggestion may well continue and embarrass them later in other company. If you had been taking a class under Don, it would have been a simple matter for him to let you make the mistake and learn from it, since he would be there to correct it. Online instruction allows for no such mistake. We are so practised that we sometimes forget to add the simple stuff we all know by rote. Why should any of us put ourselves in that position? Read, read, and read some more, but take training if you are intent on using the knowledge on others.

[tdiamond]

I have been practicing hypnosis recently as I recieved a number of good books on it for Christmas.
I have managed to get a few people into a trance state (with their permission)
Can anyone please give me some advice on how I can make them do certain things. I don't want to do anything malacious, but for example to make them laugh at a certain word.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You

a really good joke helps.. always works for me...

[Don]

Hi, Doc.

I don't disagree with you at all. Learning to walk generally doesn't involve "formal" instruction. However, a combination of modeling and individual assistance is usually involved. Parents usually encourage, provide hand-holding and support. I don't know of any children who learned to walk with no assistance (although it may have occurred).

Perhaps our notions of "training" are different. Much of training includes modeling the trainer.

Oh well... Perhaps I'm guilty of being anti-semantic.
:)

[Poodle]

PLEASE read Terry's post a minimum of 20 times! It is the total truth - unbiased, uncensored and just the facts. Pood

[Docresults]

Hi, Doc.

I don't disagree with you at all. Learning to walk generally doesn't involve "formal" instruction. However, a combination of modeling and individual assistance is usually involved. Parents usually encourage, provide hand-holding and support. I don't know of any children who learned to walk with no assistance (although it may have occurred).

Perhaps our notions of "training" are different. Much of training includes modeling the trainer.

Oh well... Perhaps I'm guilty of being anti-semantic.
:)

Don, I agree, my thinking was much training would be more effective if it included more modeling of the trainer and some I am aware of are less focused on that and more focused on "formal" instruction.

I suspect we both agree best would be a combination of modeling, personal assistance, formal training and support.

When I thought of the model of learning to walk I just did see or remember sitting and taking notes so I would understand cognatively.

To Your Best,
Doc

I suspect we are all anti-semantic much of the time. At least I find myself there from time to time.

[Merlin]

Start by hypnotising them instead of inducing trance.
Then, give them suggestions.

[Don]

You mean you didn't take notes when learning to walk? I still have mine. Unfortunately, they're in crayon and I have no idea what they mean!
:)

[Stoic]

Terry I believe Don was just making a point, not giving out instructions. I can't be sure of course, but my understanding is that Don's simple instruction will fail at the OP's hands and will prove that what he perceives to be simple is not, not just for the suggestion but for hypnosis. What a knot!

[Frog420]

One of the biggest problems we face, is people anxious to put into action, something they have read about, but have no skill to do properly.
Terry we are talking about hypnosis, not rocket science. I'm sure you are aware of the great amount of literature on the subject, lots written by very respected people in the field that give step by step instructions on how to guide someone into trance.
What you ask is simple enough, so simple in fact that when you read what Don wrote, it must make you pause to realise that if you have to ask about something so simple, you are surely in danger of doing harm, even though you have no such intention.
Terry the request made was a simple 'how do I install a post hypnotic suggestion into my friend that makes him laugh whenever I trigger it' nothing as involved as regression or therapy
If you read some of the other posts, you will notice that many complain that we are unwilling to help them, they think because we are being asked to do it for free. Fact is, we won't because we can see the possibilities of harm and they can't.
Very noble, but Terry no harm can be done by putting someone into a light trance for fun. If that was the case you would have to have a license to practice hypnosis.
What would you do for example, if you got someone into a trance and couldn't get them to come out of it on command? I am betting you would panic, yet there is no reason to except ignorance of what might happen, and worry that you did something wrong.
You said yourself 'I am betting' this person says they have read up on the subject, it is stated in most books how safe hypnosis is, and that if someone doesn't come out of trance on command that they would eventually wake up anyway.
What would you do if you gave someone a suggestion that seemed simple at the time, and they went into a panic attack? Now that IS serious, and you would be right to be scared of what you had done. You could have done ireparable harm.
This person asked how to use post hypnotic suggestion... not how to alter someones memory... the likelyhood of any damage being caused by a command such as 'no matter what I say, you will find it hysterical' followed by 'Jonny, would you like a beer' is zero
It happens, often but a skilled practitioner knows exactly what to do, you don't....
Hmm I know of one occasion when harm was been done, that was performed by a qualified practitioner on a subject of mine, he used regression to find out when this person started smoking, it brought back some fearful memories of when this person was a child, he snapped straight out of hypnosis and was fearful of ever being hypnotised again, I persuaded him to have a session with me, we conquered them fears, and he gave up smoking (for about 2 months :( ) and I (an unqualified hypnotist) done it for free.
Finally, even Don who is highly skilled and practised made a mistake when he offered you that advise. He forgot he was dealing with a total novice, and failed to tell you to remove all suggestions before you leave your friend or family member. If not the suggestion may well continue and embarrass them later in other company.
Complete novice? I belive that if you read enough books and have practiced before, surely you deserve amature status. Other than that sound advice, but something that any amature would already know.
If you had been taking a class under Don, it would have been a simple matter for him to let you make the mistake and learn from it, since he would be there to correct it. Online instruction allows for no such mistake. We are so practised that we sometimes forget to add the simple stuff we all know by rote.
So you may forget to teach the basics.. and Terry if you do then surely any trainer could... but books never forget to tell you all they know.
Why should any of us put ourselves in that position? Read, read, and read some more, but take training if you are intent on using the knowledge on others.
Again hypnosis can be fun... don't let all these 'get training' members put you off, relax let your friends relax and have fun with it.

It is pretty late here now, I'll post a little guide on post-hypnotic suggestion tomorow

[Connie]

...we conquered them fears...and I done it for free.

You should add a grammar course to your general education.

[Frog420]

You should add a grammar course to your general education.

ah how nice of you to notice my dyslexia. I would also like to say in my defence it was very early in the morning, I'm using a new keyboard and it was dark in the room. could an Admin please remove connies post, It clearly has nothing to do with the subject in hand, and was obviously posted in an attempt to belittle me.

[tdiamond]

You should add a grammar course to your general education.

and the point of doing that Connie?

If you dont like the post, stooping to insults is not very professional wouldnt you think?

and with this forum there are many people that are not writing in their native language.

are we not role models...

[Connie]

and the point of doing that Connie?

If you dont like the post, stooping to insults is not very professional wouldnt you think?

and with this forum there are many people that are not writing in their native language.

are we not role models...

Your perceive my comment to Froggie as a insult. I see it as a helpful suggestion. All my comments here are meant to help. As to your other remark, you know nothing about what I know. I am quite capable of discerning whether someone is a native speaker of English or not by how they write.

[Don]

You're correct, Stoic. Cabbage Tom asked a question and I gave a simple and direct answer to the question. The thing is, that information, in and of itself, is totally useless. That's why I wrote in my post,

"By the way, hypnosis isn't simply information such as I've just given you. It's a skill. To learn a skill you have to have someone train you, much as when you were learning to walk you had your parents to train you. Without the skill, the information is rather useless."

As I recall, Steve Martin once did a bit where he told people how to make two million dollars in six months. It went something like,
First get a million dollars. Then put it in stocks that will double in six months.

That is 100% accurate and also 100% useless.

Information sometimes provides a prevention of attempts rather than success.

[Poodle]

In many ways we are role models as these people are coming to us as supposed experts in our fields. Apparently my spelling is getting worse by the year so maybe some day Dr. Matt will install "Spell Check" and we can all look as brilliant as we really are. Failing in which, we could always go back to the good old NLP Spelling Strategy.

I find it very poor Forum Etiquette to call another Senior Member "UNPROFESSIONAL". Signed as very sad, Pood :mad:

[skip]

Ah, there is the rub.

Was it a description of the behavior, and opinion ...

Or did she call Connie unprofessional?

And are any of us, or should I say our 'on forum behavior'; sacrosanct?

I didnt percieve it as a comment about Connie personally. Neither did I percieve Connie's comment as personal, as it's recipent clearly took it.

It is pretty easy to forsee that comments, like both Tanja and Connie made, will likely be recieved in a less than useful frame. Even if one knows either of them personally, and knows neither of them has a harsh bone, it is easy to forsee, that people who dont know them, could misinterpret. And even sometimes if we do, know them.

I would like to think that people, especially my friends, will call to my attention, any of my behavior they feel is out of character, or out of line.

I would hope, they would pull me 'off to the side', to do it.

And if after calling my attention to it, when I explained my purpose, if I didnt change my approach, I would hope they could accept that my motives might be pure, even as they disagreed with my approach.

My FEELING is that both had good intention here.

That's because of my sense of who both of them are. That good, honest, people, took exception, is, in my opinion, due to the absense of 'softeners' in their approach, not due to any harmful intent.

Just an opinion, think no more of it ...

;)

cheers,

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Terry we are talking about hypnosis, not rocket science. I'm sure you are aware of the great amount of literature on the subject, lots written by very respected people in the field that give step by step instructions on how to guide someone into trance.

Terry the request made was a simple 'how do I install a post hypnotic suggestion into my friend that makes him laugh whenever I trigger it' nothing as involved as regression or therapy

Very noble, but Terry no harm can be done by putting someone into a light trance for fun. If that was the case you would have to have a license to practice hypnosis.

You said yourself 'I am betting' this person says they have read up on the subject, it is stated in most books how safe hypnosis is, and that if someone doesn't come out of trance on command that they would eventually wake up anyway.

This person asked how to use post hypnotic suggestion... not how to alter someones memory... the likelyhood of any damage being caused by a command such as 'no matter what I say, you will find it hysterical' followed by 'Jonny, would you like a beer' is zero

Hmm I know of one occasion when harm was been done, that was performed by a qualified practitioner on a subject of mine, he used regression to find out when this person started smoking, it brought back some fearful memories of when this person was a child, he snapped straight out of hypnosis and was fearful of ever being hypnotised again, I persuaded him to have a session with me, we conquered them fears, and he gave up smoking (for about 2 months :( ) and I (an unqualified hypnotist) done it for free.

Complete novice? I belive that if you read enough books and have practiced before, surely you deserve amature status. Other than that sound advice, but something that any amature would already know.

So you may forget to teach the basics.. and Terry if you do then surely any trainer could... but books never forget to tell you all they know.

Again hypnosis can be fun... don't let all these 'get training' members put you off, relax let your friends relax and have fun with it.

It is pretty late here now, I'll post a little guide on post-hypnotic suggestion tomorow You are absolutely correct Frig, it is indeed hypnosis, not roclet science, and foolish me, I did know that. Now fact is, since you see it that way, I must wonder why you bothered to ask about it at all. Surely since it is not rocket science you should be able to figure it our for yourself. Sadly, I passed on to rocket science years ago, and found it so boring I came back to hypnosis, but of course you must do as you wish.
Personally, I feel you chose to chastise me for caring about your welfair, and this being so, you show an arogance that precluded me helping you further, so I will ignore your posts in the future. Good luck on your own..

[tdiamond]

thanks skip.. thats why they pay you the big bucks..

You are quite correct that my post should have been made in private..

I see this forum sometimes degrade from answering questions and instead make personal remarks that arent helpful.. I am guilty as charged.

My apologies to the people I have done this to, both to forum members and posters.

Certainly not worthy of any professional.. though undoubtedly human..

[Terry (existing)]

Damn right Skip, I am surprised that Connie should have been the one attacked, since I am chief sinner, and I demand that my status shall be duly recognised. :(

As for being a "role model" that can be taken in different ways. I believe I AM a role model to my children, grand children, and even to my great grand child. On the other hand, I attend this board as a skilled artisan and nothing more. There is an old saying, "to thin own self be true", which I find a good rule to follow online as well as in other activities. I object to being insulted and I say so before putting that person on ignore. For those who would wish to prevent me doing so, I have just two words, "BITE ME".
As for telling Connie that she is out of line for speaking according to how she feels, rubbish, I know of nobody less likely to be insulting without cause than she, so pick on me, I do bite back.

[Jack]

dunnowotorltherfusizabart.

Jack

[Charlie]

When does the naked mud wrestling start, is what I would like to know.

[Terry (existing)]

When does the naked mud wrestling start, is what I would like to know. Come now Charlie, I was only slinging a little mud, do you really want to get in a bath of it? Come to think of it, why don't you choose whom you would like to wrestle with?:) I have lived with one lady so long, she is my only choice, but why would I mud wrestle when we have a bed to do it in:D

[tdiamond]

When does the naked mud wrestling start, is what I would like to know.

anytime you mix the mud and jump on in :D

[Charlie]

Come now Charlie, I was only slinging a little mud, do you really want to get in a bath of it? Come to think of it, why don't you choose whom you would like to wrestle with?:) I have lived with one lady so long, she is my only choice, but why would I mud wrestle when we have a bed to do it in:D

Terry, I still have fond memories of the famous "Merlin v Cassandra8" mud wrestling match.

(And so nice of Skip to send me such high quality DVDs, for replay)

Ah, the good old days.

*sigh*

Hopefully we can all look forward to the new "Tdiamond v Connie" series.

(More close-ups this time please, Skip)

LIGHTS! CAMERA! ACTION!

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon3.gif

[tdiamond]

Terry, I still have fond memories of the famous "Merlin v Cassandra8" mud wrestling match.

(And so nice of Skip to send me such high quality DVDs, for replay)

Ah, the good old days.

*sigh*

Hopefully we can all look forward to the new "Tdiamond v Connie" series.

(More close-ups this time please, Skip)

LIGHTS! CAMERA! ACTION!

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon3.gif

nope i dont think it going to happen.. she ignoring me... she didnt even get the apology :)

[Charlie]

nope i dont think it going to happen.. she ignoring me... she didnt even get the apology :)

That's a shame.

Well, it's almost midnight here in the UK, and time for sleepy-byes.

.... and is it a dream, or is it a trance, I just don't know, but as the mud begins to clear......

;)

:)

[tyku]

If people never tried anything new there would be no hypnosis/nlp(not to mention every other field).

Sometimes the instructions that Don originally gave will work. Sometimes they won't. It depends on the set and setting of those involved.

I do believe one of the first presuppositions of nlp is that the meaning of your communication is the response it elicits, isn't it? I also believe, and I may be incorrect, that another presupposition of nlp is that if what you are doing isn't working, do anything else, right? So, here's my suggestion, and it is only a suggestion that I think each of us might benefit from: There are some areas where rigidity in thinking is beneficial, and other areas where it can hurt us all. I'll leave it up to each of us to sort out where and which of our behaviors is what whenever each of us has the time at hand. Now, enjoy the sight, taste, texture, and smell of the mud as it gets in every orifice available.

[Don]

If people never tried anything new there would be no hypnosis/nlp(not to mention every other field).


Both hypnosis and NLP grew out of trained professionals observing others and developing new directions. Neither began with an untrained person or someone who had read a couple of books trying something out.

Sometimes the instructions that Don originally gave will work. Sometimes they won't.

Absolutely correct. That's why someone trained in hypnosis will know how to easily move from one type of suggestion to another to best meet the needs of clients. This skill is developed through training, study, and experience.



It depends on the set and setting of those involved.

Of course, that's a comment developed straight out of Leary and determining the results of psychedelic drugs (along with dosage) more than hypnosis. In fact, in classical, authoritative hypnosis, the hypnotherapist will draw the client into the hypnotist's mind-set rather than worrying about the client's set and setting. In using permissive, Ericksonian-style suggestions the hypnotist will make use of the client's mind set and may make use of the setting, but the purpose is still to draw the client into another pattern.

After all, this is exactly what the original question was about. How to make someone find something hysterically funny. That requires moving the hypnotized person away from their set and setting where they may not think something was funny or that it is inappropriate to laugh hysterically in that setting.

I do believe one of the first presuppositions of nlp is that the meaning of your communication is the response it elicits, isn't it? I also believe, and I may be incorrect, that another presupposition of nlp is that if what you are doing isn't working, do anything else, right? So, here's my suggestion, and it is only a suggestion that I think each of us might benefit from: There are some areas where rigidity in thinking is beneficial, and other areas where it can hurt us all. I'll leave it up to each of us to sort out where and which of our behaviors is what whenever each of us has the time at hand. Now, enjoy the sight, taste, texture, and smell of the mud as it gets in every orifice available.

I'm not an expert on NLP, so others can respond to you about this. However, since the question was specifically about hypnosis, and not NLP, that was what I responded to.

In your sig, you use a quote from one Aleister Crowley. One of his ideas, from his Liber Al, is simple: "Let success be your proof."

Your denunciation of staying with things that work as being indicative of "rigidity" (albeit you do say that such "rigidity" can be beneficial--sort of a back-handed compliment) implies that you don't agree with one of the basic laws of the universe: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If something doesn't work, of course you must change. Those who do not change, like the dinosaurs, will die out. But if something is working and we attempt to change it simply because lack of rigidity must be kewl, then we are moving away from success for no reason at all.

Let success be your proof, not a dislike for "rigidity."

[tyku]

Both hypnosis and NLP grew out of trained professionals observing others and developing new directions. Neither began with an untrained person or someone who had read a couple of books trying something out.So, what you're espousing to me is that it's "turtles all the way down", eh? There had to have been amateurs and dabblers in there somewhere, Don. If not all over the place.

Absolutely correct. That's why someone trained in hypnosis will know how to easily move from one type of suggestion to another to best meet the needs of clients. This skill is developed through training, study, and experience.I'll agree with you to an extent. I'd only add a few semantic changes. These skills are best or most easily(probably) developed through training, study, and/or experience.



Of course, that's a comment developed straight out of Leary and determining the results of psychedelic drugs (along with dosage) more than hypnosis. In fact, in classical, authoritative hypnosis, the hypnotherapist will draw the client into the hypnotist's mind-set rather than worrying about the client's set and setting. In using permissive, Ericksonian-style suggestions the hypnotist will make use of the client's mind set and may make use of the setting, but the purpose is still to draw the client into another pattern.

After all, this is exactly what the original question was about. How to make someone find something hysterically funny. That requires moving the hypnotized person away from their set and setting where they may not think something was funny or that it is inappropriate to laugh hysterically in that setting.Just because a comment is developed for one thing doesn't mean that it cannot be applied equally well to another. Perhaps though you are not completely correct. Making someone find something hysterically funny doesn't absolutely require moving someone away from their set and setting. Depending on the set and setting of the person, you could simply add on a specification or generalization that would enable a person to respond to whatever thing(s) you want as though they are hysterically funny.


I'm not an expert on NLP, so others can respond to you about this. However, since the question was specifically about hypnosis, and not NLP, that was what I responded to. Hmm.. Definately a valid point. Although, my response wasn't directed solely at you. It's something I play with too.

In your sig, you use a quote from one Aleister Crowley. One of his ideas, from his Liber Al, is simple: "Let success be your proof."

Your denunciation of staying with things that work as being indicative of "rigidity" (albeit you do say that such "rigidity" can be beneficial--sort of a back-handed compliment) implies that you don't agree with one of the basic laws of the universe: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If something doesn't work, of course you must change. Those who do not change, like the dinosaurs, will die out. But if something is working and we attempt to change it simply because lack of rigidity must be kewl, then we are moving away from success for no reason at all.

Let success be your proof, not a dislike for "rigidity."*laughs* I love rigidity! If it weren't for cell walls, we wouldn't exist as we do now. If it weren't for leaders of all sorts(chieftans, shamen, priestesses, etc), there would be no social networks(tribes, clans, groups, etc) and we'd be less than animals(packs). If it weren't for small social networks, we couldn't have as good a system to pass on our intellectual knowledge(educational system). If it weren't for our educational system, we couldn't have large social networks(cities, states, etc). I also love change. At one time, each of these was a radical idea or change to some. Can you imagine how radical an idea tribes, and the founding of cities must have been at one point in time to at least some of our ancestors? How about painting? Writing? Cooking food? Harnessing fire?

I never said to change anything because a "lack of rigidity must be kewl". I think all change should be mediated by just such a set of factors as "success". As it is. Such systems are in place in some areas. The study of science has the peer review system. Every governmental policy is run through at least someones' "success" gauge. I'm not saying these systems are perfect. I'm just saying that they're in place. There are some ways in which these systems unnecessarily(somewhat) perform their functions. For example, the U.S. educational system has yet to fully accept, and implement the use of the NLP model for use in it's classes. This is one decision in which a lack of rigidity would be beneficial in a very broad sense.

In conclusion, we all have decisions in which more rigidity, or less, would be beneficial. As Don says, "Let success be your proof."

[Don]

So, what you're espousing to me is that it's "turtles all the way down", eh? There had to have been amateurs and dabblers in there somewhere, Don. If not all over the place.

The originators were experts in related fields, so it was not difficult to switch over. They, in turn, trained the amateurs and dabblers. Don't take my word for it, check history.


Just because a comment is developed for one thing doesn't mean that it cannot be applied equally well to another.

Very true.

Perhaps though you are not completely correct.

Often very true. That's why I study and take trainings.


Making someone find something hysterically funny doesn't absolutely require moving someone away from their set and setting. Depending on the set and setting of the person, you could simply add on a specification or generalization that would enable a person to respond to whatever thing(s) you want as though they are hysterically funny.

You're speaking in generalization and without specifics. I'm inclined to guess (and it's only a guess) that we probably mean the same thing but have different interpretations of words we are using. So let's look as a specific.

It's a party. You've hypnotized the very prim, proper, and quiet Jeanne. Now, how do you get her to laugh hysterically when you say the word "Thursday" without getting her to move away from being prim, proper, and quiet in a group setting?

If it weren't for leaders of all sorts(chieftans, shamen, priestesses, etc), there would be no social networks(tribes, clans, groups, etc) and we'd be less than animals(packs).

Assumed, but when examined by scientists this concept was proven to be false. What happens is that most animals that move in packs function democratically and leaders reflect the desire of the pack or they lose their position. Humans naturally would move that way. Power has been used by "leaders" to control others. It is neither natural nor healthy.


Can you imagine how radical an idea tribes, and the founding of cities must have been at one point in time to at least some of our ancestors? How about painting? Writing? Cooking food? Harnessing fire?

These were all natural, evolutionary changes. Some people might not have liked them, but there are always Luddites.



Every governmental policy is run through at least someones' "success" gauge.

Uh, you don't live in the U.S., do you? If so, where did you get this idea?



In conclusion, we all have decisions in which more rigidity, or less, would be beneficial. As Don says, "Let success be your proof."

Aleister Crowley wrote that. I just quoted him (or whoever/whatever was channeled in writing).

[Poodle]

government is run thru "someone's success guage". Uhhh, he didn't say who's. Probably was a blithering idiot's. And at last check, tyku is in the good ole USA.

[Terry (existing)]

Tyku, you are entitled to believe as you wish, but jousting with the highly skilled, when you know so little must surely seem to be an excercise in futility don't you think?
We have "know nothings" and we have the "know somethings", but all of us started as the former, and by sensible study became the later, so no-one need feel inferior unless they choose to do things the hard and long way instead of the smart way. Some of us, myself included, chose to stand on the shoulders of those who had gone before, and having learned what they knew, proceeded to learn more, and contribute to the knowledge and skill of others.
If you choose to be different, feel free, it affects nobody but you. However, it is very foolish to try to justify doing things the hard way, and faulting others who are leaping way ahead because they did it the smart way don't you think? Another problem I find, is that those who place no value on their time, also place no value on the time and welfare of others, and it is this I find most distasteful. Examine YOUR reason for YOUR attitude and then decide who will be most successful, and who is to be left standing at the starting gate..

[tyku]

The originators were experts in related fields, so it was not difficult to switch over. They, in turn, trained the amateurs and dabblers. Don't take my word for it, check history. You do realize that your arguement is illogical, don't you?

You're speaking in generalization and without specifics. I'm inclined to guess (and it's only a guess) that we probably mean the same thing but have different interpretations of words we are using. So let's look as a specific. I'm pretty close to certain that you're correct on this one.

It's a party. You've hypnotized the very prim, proper, and quiet Jeanne. Now, how do you get her to laugh hysterically when you say the word "Thursday" without getting her to move away from being prim, proper, and quiet in a group setting? I wouldn't hypnotize her. Too much effort for such a little thing. I'd just tell her a joke or metaphor that's centered around some object(a day, person, animal, item) with the label "Thursday". Depending on how well I knew this person, I might be inclined to give a direct suggestion like the one that you stated previously.

Assumed, but when examined by scientists this concept was proven to be false. What happens is that most animals that move in packs function democratically and leaders reflect the desire of the pack or they lose their position. Humans naturally would move that way. Power has been used by "leaders" to control others. It is neither natural nor healthy. You say that it's natural, and then you say that it's not? Or, more accurately, you've just said that leadership is a natural outgrowth of democracy which is involved in a feedback loop with their followers, but it's not natural or healthy. I agree that it can be natural and healthy, or unnaturally unhealthy.

These were all natural, evolutionary changes. Some people might not have liked them, but there are always Luddites. Alright, now I'm certain we're saying the same thing in different language and/or from different perspectives.

Uh, you don't live in the U.S., do you? If so, where did you get this idea? Like Pood said, I never specified which persons' success gauge it was run through, or that that individual has a good decision strategy for deciding the outcomes required of their position(s).

[tyku]

Tyku, you are entitled to believe as you wish, but jousting with the highly skilled, when you know so little must surely seem to be an excercise in futility don't you think? Did I ever tell you that I love you?

We have "know nothings" and we have the "know somethings", but all of us started as the former, and by sensible study became the later, so no-one need feel inferior unless they choose to do things the hard and long way instead of the smart way. Some of us, myself included, chose to stand on the shoulders of those who had gone before, and having learned what they knew, proceeded to learn more, and contribute to the knowledge and skill of others.
If you choose to be different, feel free, it affects nobody but you. However, it is very foolish to try to justify doing things the hard way, and faulting others who are leaping way ahead because they did it the smart way don't you think? Another problem I find, is that those who place no value on their time, also place no value on the time and welfare of others, and it is this I find most distasteful. Examine YOUR reason for YOUR attitude and then decide who will be most successful, and who is to be left standing at the starting gate.. I think you may have read more into my posting than is there. What you wrote is exactly what I've been saying.

[Don]

You do realize that your arguement is illogical, don't you?

No. Experts in a field very often transfer their skills to a similar field. It's very common in business and in education.

I wouldn't hypnotize her. Too much effort for such a little thing. I'd just tell her a joke or metaphor that's centered around some object(a day, person, animal, item) with the label "Thursday". Depending on how well I knew this person, I might be inclined to give a direct suggestion like the one that you stated previously.

How would that get her to laugh hysterically when a) she didn't think "Thursday" was funny and it is not her style to become hysterical about anything, especially in front of other people? Respectfully, your "solution" does not resolve the problem at all. You still have to get her to laugh hysterically, anchor that to "Thursday," and get her to feel okay about exhibiting that behavior in front of a crowd.

You say that it's natural, and then you say that it's not? Or, more accurately, you've just said that leadership is a natural outgrowth of democracy which is involved in a feedback loop with their followers, but it's not natural or healthy. I agree that it can be natural and healthy, or unnaturally unhealthy.

Man, I don't know what you're reading, but it has nothing to do with what I posted. What I said was that Democracy was natural. Using power to control the democracy does not occur among mammals other than humans. Leadership works with democracy and is natural. Control through power is neither natural or healthy.