language(s), arising from commonly-shared experiences ...

[Annie]

Hello,

in the thread, discussing "drugging challenges using alcohol", EC made this comment : "AA misinterpreted "giving it all to Jesus".
I do believe we have *free will* and can do whatever we like, which includes taking personal responsibility for change.
In my mind this in no way discounts the assistance that might come from Jesus. "

Obviously, that is true - I quite agree. Jesus, being God, is able to create *miracles* unlike any human ever could. Consider :
1. beyond the infinity of space He created, and whose "planets : physical bodies" He has *well in hand, in the proper orbits*, etc. No mere mortal can do that.
and
2. same with each of our "eentsy weentsy" (by comparison) physical bodies. It's "Child's play" for Jesus to restore a presently destroyed limb, or organ >*perfectly functional, Instantanously*<. How many people have you witnessed doing that ?

That's why when people, including many nlp-'ers say, " I am my own god, and have no need to believe in an external Supreme god" - I ask : "who do you think you are Foolin' ? "

However, within that understood Frame-work, we can access information to *help one another* - that many people already know how to tap into. And that is another avenue greatly worth persueing, you know :)


Annie

[Charlie]

That's why when people, including many nlp-'ers say, " I am my own god, and have no need to believe in an external Supreme god" - I ask : "who do you think you are Foolin' ? "
Annie

And when people, christians, say "Jesus is the son of god, born of the virgin Mary, died on crucifix for sins of mankind" - I ask : "who do you think YOU are Foolin' ? "
_

[Simple Guy]

"Language" huh? Annie either doesn't know or care that the language she uses in this
thread is the language that will alienate her from many of those that read it. That this
(her language) is an anti-witness to the faith that she professes to, I don't particularly care,
but suggest that this kind of thread is better suited to a religious forum. (I don't intend to
sound harsh and if there were an icon for gentle, I'd use it here.)

[Terry]

There are those who choose to believe certain things which are not provable in human terms, and those who reject them. On the other hand, there is no room in my opinion for stupidity.....
Charlie, you have a right to your own opinion, and I defend that right. For my part, I rarely read what Annie writes, since I find it a little too much for my system. On the other hand, I see no need to claim that anything I say, and which another may disagree with should be the subject of an attempt to FOOL anyone.....You display a very narrow minded attitude which borders on stupidity, in that it closes the mind to new ideas completely, and leaves you without a tool nescessary to growth. You will note that in spite of various contributors to the thread you reffer to having very different opinions on the effectiveness of using both hypnosis and AA together, those who contributed to the discussion were able to converse without getting upset by the differences.....We recognise that each of us has had different experiences, and these contribute to our seeing things from a different viewpoint.
You are a guest on this board, please behave like one, we have enough trolls already, without adding to them. Terry

[skip]

Dear Readers,

As a moderator on this forum, I am dubious about this thread.

This forum is dedicated to the development of people thru the use of hypnosis, NLP, and other means. And while it can rightfully be argued that religion or Christianity is one method of human development, it seems very much out of place in this forum.

Especially as presented in the strating post, and in the subsequent posts.

If the present and future participants can/will discuss this without getting into the seemingly inevetable squabbles, religious discussion seems to leads to, if you can use it to discuss development/effectiveness of hypnosis, or NLP, etc, then fine.

If not, I will determine this thread to be non topical with respect to the purpose of this forum and delete it.

skip

[Annie]

The above assumptions of this being intended as another "religeous"-discussion, are way off base - and how sad for all the negativity being displayed.


I assure you, that just like my thread on ' re: *Stem*-cells : Using your *mind*, to create the body you want ', this is intended as another *totally positive & beneficial invitation* for discussion :)

I began by citing 2 examples of GOD-ly acts which no human being is able to "model" if you want to state it in nlp-terms. Us humans don't even understand "electricity". All we are aware of is that we can borrow some its power for various *Beneficial* purposes (plus it is being used by some to "destroy & kill", with the intention of making money).

In my ending paragraph I said : "However, within that understood Frame-work, we can access information to *help one another* - that many people already know how to tap into. And that is another avenue greatly worth persueing, you know :)

Now, since no-one asked about what each of us can "tap into" or *access*, here are some glimpses, some of us choose referring to :
1. the vast "Library-system" storing all of everything that's ever transpired already, anywhere; and in no way am I limiting this to the "physical structures" humans have built for such purposes either.
and
2. as well everything happening now, anywhere.
and
3. as well everything that we can, in fact, Create & Control *inside our own heads*. Bandler refers to that as "dhe".

There are loads of people playing with, and experimenting with, and helping other people via such means, for a long time.

Anyway, since this ties in *well* with what's talked about here, I just thought it would be appreciated, and people can share - what their skills & experiences are, so - the more of this *Good :D News* can get spread around !


Annie

[Merlin]

Hi Skip,

The short post of Annie's is indeed *borderline* non-topical, considering it was rather short and didn't say a whole lot about hypnosis or NLP.

But personally, I'd give Annie a *little* leeway.
She did move the thread to *other discussions/topics*, rather than expanding on the "AA" thread.

Maybe there's hope for her posts yet :)

[Annie]

Hi Charlie,

I'm sorry you 'zeroed-in' on religion or in this case Christianity, thereby missing
the *Greater context* I used for introducing my topic.
Honestly, my only reason for bringing in "god" was for illustrating that very apparently us humans remain very limited in our abilities Overall - in comparison to His *UNlimited abilities* such as the mere 2, of zillions such, I mentioned.

It was my way of illustrating : "tho forever without end remaining god's ' little children', yet *within Wise limitations*, GOD is inviting our exploring... discovering...creating new languages for... experiences remaining, currently, within some people's minds we can share more of, for *encouraging each other INwardly living creative lives*, with which to then create more beneficial realities, OUTwardly : with Tesla, Bandler, & others remaining largely unknown, as examples of how we do have such, as well as many others, abilities ...

I perceive *more people being encouraged* in these processes of both "In, & Outward -creations" as being Wonderfully-helpful. What about you, Charlie ?


Annie

[Annie]

Hi Simple,

Thank you for, at least, mentioning the word *gentle*. Does this mean, you care if 'sensitive' individuals such as myself entertain the possibility of regarding you a *gentle* person ? Imagine that !

Annie

[skip]

Merlin,

I didnt delete it did I?

In fact I recognized the attempt and simply tried to head off where it seemed to be going, which would have led to a need to delete it.

I recognize that this is an area for general discussion.

I also recognize that discussions about ethics, politics, religion, and whose trainer can urinate highest on the wall, are usually the ones that degenerate into slagging matches.

So you might find yourself realizing that I was actually assisting Annie, or not.

skip

[skip]

Annie,

This thread is welcome as long as it can stay on "track", or rather away from the inherent dangers I described, for threads of this type.

And you may have noticed it was already veering 'off track', just another example of my concept that threads tend to go where they will.

I was thinking the other day about reality.

When you can take something, and describe it in such a way as everyone else would agree with you, then you are describing 'reality'.

Take, for example, describing someone. Say they are six feet tall, and have brown hair, and their eyes are brown, and their teeth are crooked, and their ears are approximately 1 3/4 inches long, and they are slumped forward, with their shoulders drooping, they their mouth is turned down at the corners, their eyes are red and watery, and their face is symetrical, and they weigh about 175 lbs, and so on and so forth. That is descrbing reality. A jury of twelve independant people would agree with this description.

If you say about the same person, they are sad, depressed, nice, angry, jubilent, effusive, kind, empathetic, et, then you have made a judgement about this person. And that judgement occurred; all inside you. It is like playing your cd player, with no radio antenna, and thinking that what you are hearing is the evening news. IT AINT SO. It has no basis in reality.

I have a client right now that cannot tell the difference.

He has unwanted thoughts. Horrible thoughts. And he fights against them, and tries to disassociate himself from his feelings brought on by these thoughts. And he is repulsed and disgusted by the thoughts. And he is afraid they will become real.

But they arent real. No 'jury' would look at the same reality, and come up with these thoughts. And intellectually he knows that. But it still hits him on a visceral level, because the 'gift of consciousness'; this 'evolutionary experiment', doesnt distinguish between what is real, and what comes up in our minds.

Just as an interesting experiment, you might go back to my "moderators post" and re-read it, and make comments on it, that are limited only to what a jury of twelve others would agree to.

Then contrast that with what you "heard" and responded to in your follow up post. If there is a big descrepency between the two, you might surprise yourself, by having an insight, that would prove very useful to you.

Or not.

skip

[Charlie]

Hmmmmm.

It's all getting a bit deep for me.

(Although I guess 'deep' can often be a nice place to go.)

(But not yet.)

Meanwhile, suffice to say, I'm inclined to agree with Skip when he wisely says: "This forum is dedicated to the development of people thru the use of hypnosis, NLP, and other means. And while it can rightfully be argued that religion or Christianity is one method of human development, it seems very much out of place in this forum."

Personally, I'm astonished at how much Christianity Annie seems to infuse into her postings, generally. It's a shame, because much of what she says re NLP/Hypnosis is most interesting, but the pushy Christianity is too much, for me at least. I find it off-putting enough such that I prefer to mostly 'lurk' than 'post'.

PLEASE tone it down, Annie. I am sure there are other places you can go and discuss Christianity.

I am very interested in NLP/Hypnosis.

I am very un-interested in Christianity.

Regards,

Charlie.

[Simple Guy]

Hi Annie,

My concern isn't overly focused on the way that I'm regarded here. I'm more
concerned with how I respond to others. You mention "sensitive," to good
effect, as it's a good thing for people to remember to be careful with each other.

Take care.

[Annie]

Charlie,

> Hmmmmm. It's all getting a bit deep for me.

obviously this part, I bothered addressing to *you, personally* : exploring... discovering...creating new languages for... experiences remaining, currently, within some people's minds we can share more of, for *encouraging each other INwardly living creative lives*, with which to then create more beneficial realities, OUTwardly : with Tesla, Bandler, & others remaining largely unknown, as examples of how we do have such, as well as many others, abilities ...
I perceive *more people being encouraged* in these processes of both "In, & Outward -creations" as being Wonderfully-helpful. What about you, Charlie ? "

has once again been chosen IGNORED in preference over argueing, wastefully, over religion. How boring !
~

I have no interest in discussing "Christianity" except with my *3 bestest friends face-to-face*. There is NO-1, online, I wish to discuss anything like that with.


The people I have been exploring the 3 areas of my thread with for years, don't think it's too "deep". It's obviously being enjoyed as an opportunity for *personal/humanitarian development* by many of us.

Fine, forget I ever attempted initiating *worthwhile Intellectually-stimulating discussions* in this group.

Until someone starts contributing in this thread who, as well, demonstrates some *interest/experience/skill in these 3 areas*, helping develop "another Language, based on common-experience" - I have lost interest.

Annie

[j0hnny#]

Has recently struck me the importance of purpose with regard to the skills that can be learned. In fact what use is a skill without a purpose? I see purposes.... people using skills to acheive purposes... people with purposes ... who has a purpose has direction.... who has skill to bring about purposes has power...

How could a new language be developed? Seems you would need some rules... then some people to follow these rules. Language is understood by its users, understanding is getting at meanings... Meanings, require consistency..... for them to mean they must mean what they mean over time (sustainably). To give a word meaning is set up a rule for its use and for the person who understands it to know what it is for a word to be true <insert favourite analytic philosopher here> - 'snow is white' is true if and only if snow is white I understand the expression when I understand what it is for it to be true (by way of Davidson, Tarski, Frege - in no particular order).

To make a new language will require 1) a purpose i.e. what purpose will it serve
2) rules for the use of the terms in the language.
3) people to follow the rules

The quandry is 2) for in order to understand the terms in the language we need a starting point. Let X mean Y will require that Y is understood. Y will only be understood if it is already in current use, and X will only be significant as a new meaning if it changes the meaning of Y in some way....

It seems to me that 1) is the ultimate element, for when the meanings in use in a particular community are stretched to the limit to serve behaviours that do not serve their purposes (the purposes of the behaviours), new meanings develop to serve those purposes - this is how we can talk of the 'depression' and the 'unconscious mind' and/or 'subconsciousness' and 'hypnosis' and 'nlp', and.....

None of this comes without great effort... though when in use such words fall to a certain extent out of profundity in to ordinarity (if you will excuse the awkward phrase). We do well to remember IMO that we are indebted to past masters who through dedication to find something appropriate to needs to understand in new ways beyond the limits of what was inadequate to them and to others, developed the traditions in which we now bathe (or can choose to bathe in, if we so wish)....

A man/woman without purpose is like driftwood in another man's/woman's loch....

<my respect for purpose>

<my respect for the challenge in mind>

respect
j0hnny#

[skip]

Hi Johnny,

Interestingly enough some folks who are of the opinion that our language limits and or shapes our thought processes has decided to develop language that leaves out certain pieces they feel are inhibiting our culture.

I think they started and may have ended with esparanto, but I am not sure.

It is also mixed up with what is called Grovian Clean Language.

The Idea was to clear thought processes, by using language that wasnt inhibiting.

Ill try and recall better and give more information.

skip

[Simple Guy]

Does anyone want to pursue any of the following questions?:

How have religious beliefs been utilized to assist clients in hypnotherapy?
Have you drawn upon religious archetypes to create effective metaphors?
How have you overcome religious objections to the use of hypnosis?
Have differences of religious orientation been a barrier to rapport?
Would you assist clients in obtaining goals that are contrary to your
own religious orientations?

[EC]

Simple Guy:

How have religious beliefs been utilized to assist clients in hypnotherapy? YES

Have you drawn upon religious archetypes to create effective metaphors? YES

How have you overcome religious objections to the use of hypnosis? YES

Have differences of religious orientation been a barrier to rapport? NO

Would you assist clients in obtaining goals that are contrary to your own religious orientations? YES


Terry: Way to Go !

Annie: When you choose to be nice, you are TOO NICE!

Skip: The jury is in:
>>they are six feet tall, and have brown hair, and their eyes are brown, and their teeth are crooked, and their ears are approximately 1 3/4 inches long, and they are slumped forward, with their shoulders drooping, they their mouth is turned down at the corners, their eyes are red and watery, and their face is symetrical, and they weigh about 175 lbs, and so on and so forth. That is descrbing Charlie. A jury of twelve independant people would agree with this <<

That was *Charlie* He was practicing being his own God!

PS: >>I have a client right now that cannot tell the difference <<

We call theses folks Psychotic!

Now Skip, this is reality http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EC

[skip]

Simple Guy, EC,

How have religious beliefs been utilized to assist clients in hypnotherapy?

Enter into their model of the world and work from within that model, I described that just today in a response about cancer.

Have you drawn upon religious archetypes to create effective metaphors?

Sure.

How have you overcome religious objections to the use of hypnosis?

Never had to. People dont come to me asking for help unless they have already overcome their religious objections. some of them just didnt know it, until after the initial interview ...

Have differences of religious orientation been a barrier to rapport?

Not for me. Again enter into their model of the world.

Would you assist clients in obtaining goals that are contrary to your
own religious orientations?

Depends. Do they wish to become a "better terrorist"? But that isnt strictly a religious decision is it? I have to hedge on this one, would I help a cult leader to better manipulate his followers? But that isnt a religious decision either is it? I think I might unequivocably say yes, but Im not sure, havent worked thru all the possible permutations.

EC,

Dont be so hard on Charlie. He doesnt want religion, that isnt his, served with his hypnosis and NLP. And he evidently percieves religious discussion as more noise than signal. I would hope that he would choose to improve the noise to signal ratio by posting more signal, instead of lurking and depending on others to do it for him/her.

True we do call clients who cannot distinguish reality from fantasy, psychotics. The pertinant question is what do we call those same people when they post on lists? :)

skip

[unhypnotizablynot]

Charlie,

Relax (deeply, if you like), because we are all in the same Ark together, when you think about it, since we are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in.

It's just that some of us like to believe in one god less, do we not.........?

;)

[Terry]

Having agreed wholeheartedly with Skip's post, I would add a little if I may.
My religious beliefs are my own, and I never impose them on others. On the other hand, I have little time for those who put down the beliefs of others simply because they don't fit their own pattern. When working with a client, my first objective is to assist the client to achieve what they ask of me. I have no right to impose anything. If I am asked to do something for a client which goes against my concience, then I have the right to refuse, and nobody has the right to judge me on that......
On the other hand, it is my opinion, based on experience, that religious types are better subjects with the exception of certain sects which ban the use of hypnosis, then proceed to use it in their churches. This always gives me a chuckle........ As a Christian, I have no objection to working with a client on Past Lives Regression, but would have a great deal of objection if they expected me to believe in it myself. Two faced? No, just using the clients model and not intervening with my own. Terry

[Annie]

[QUOTE=skip]Hi Johnny,
> " Interestingly enough some folks who are of the opinion that our language limits and or shapes our thought processes has decided to develop language that leaves out certain pieces they feel are inhibiting our culture. "

Yes, you know how in earliest history 'modes of transportation', just as 1 example, were Limited to : walking, running, camels, horses, chariots, boats, things on this order...

It took a few years before humans dreamt-up, and developed equipment like : sewing machines, washing machines, ovens, chainsaws, cars, buses, planes, rockets, etc. AND the languages for all of these things humans *developed* as well.

This is similar in that these kinds of communications haven't reached a sort of *critical mass* across all involved cultures, you might say. So, people are doing it alright; but the process not being *openly encouraged* to begin with, it's definitely not being taught in "traditional schools" - pitiful.


> I think they started and may have ended with esparanto, but I am not sure.

" I am not sure " is a Healthy sign. Practice that more often :)


> It is also mixed up with what is called Grovian Clean Language. The Idea was to clear thought processes, by using language that wasnt inhibiting.

Grovian works great for processes more, or less, understood by most people. This isn't.

It will be helpful once readily-duplicatable models for such processes are created.


Annie