What is EFT - Emotional Freedom Technique?

[MT&T UK]

Hello, my name is Richard MacKenzie. I am a Hypnotherapist and author, and a practitioner of Neuro Linguistic Programming and Emotional Freedom Technique. In this post, I shall cover my thoughts and findings on Emotional Freedom Technique from over the years that I have been a practitioner of the process.

Many Emotional Freedom Technique practitioners (including the creator of EFT, Gary Craig) believe that this process deals with meridian energy lines that run around the body. They believe that blockages within these invisible meridian energy lines could be the cause of certain emotional disturbances, which can range from things like phobias to depression.

Emotional Freedom Technique is a process of tapping on these points where the blockages can occur and clearing any blockages that you may have. The process also calls on you to hum a tune, count out aloud and move your eyes around in certain directions all while thinking of the thing that is causing your emotional disturbance.

Before we get onto my thoughts and observations of Emotional Freedom Technique, I really do want to stress that I don’t and never have doubted the amazing effectiveness of Emotional Freedom Technique. It is a process that astounds me every time that I see its swiftness in dealing with a whole range of issues and a lot of the time working where nothing else has!

So the bottom line for me is that Emotional Freedom Technique is effective; maybe not 100% of the time, however in my experience it is pretty close to that mark. I truly believe that it is one of the greatest tools that we can have at our disposal as modern day therapists.

So, now we move onto my thoughts and observations on Emotional Freedom Technique. First of all, while reading this article I want you to put a big cheesy grin on your face and see how it feels! For most people that do this will feel uplifted, even if just a little. Some may even feel a little giggly and may even want to laugh out loud. Here is my point; by doing something that is a little quirky we are able to lift our spirits. The next time that you are feeling a little run down, try this simple exercise and you should notice a ‘lift’ in the way that you feel.

So why does this happen? Well, when we are in a state of happiness, the minimum that we tend to do is smile, and of course the maximum is probably to roll around on the floor laughing in stitches. It is a physical response to an emotional feeling. And the best thing is that this is a process that we can use in reverse. So, for instance, if we are not feeling particularly happy, you could smile, firing off this brain/body link in reverse. First we smile, and then emotionally we feel happier! This link between emotions in our mind and our physical reactions is something that happens in many other areas of our lives too.

OK, so what does this all have to do with Emotional Freedom Technique? Well, say for instance that you have a phobia of spiders. Usually, when people experience a phobia, they may get sweaty palms, their hands might shake or they might even find it hard to breath, their tummy might be feeling really heavy, almost like lead. These are all typical phobic responses and usually they are there to either help us fight the situation or run away from it – you have probably heard of the flight or fight response, and this is it. I think that you will agree that these are negative physical responses, particularly when we understand that all phobias are irrational. If you feel that your phobia is rational then chances are that it is a fear and fears are generally good things to have! For instance, a fear of touching something that is very hot is excellent as it protects you from being burnt.

For most, even when thinking of their phobias, they will be able to experience the negative onset of these phobic responses and in fact an Emotional Freedom Technique practitioner will encourage you to imagine your phobia, thus allowing you to understand just how negative it feels to you. One important thing to note is that as we begin to think of our phobias, the psychical responses that we get are automatic. Just like a computer program, they are preloaded so that every time we face our phobia we get that feeling in our tummy or feel dizzy. They are all responses that just happen automatically.

After getting you to imagine your phobia, the Emotional Freedom Technique practitioner will ask you to take a measurement of that fear from zero to ten. Zero means non-existent and ten means the worst it could be. Once they have this measurement the practitioner can work with you on reducing this feeling, this negativity and this phobia. First of all the practitioner will take you through a series of affirmations. These typically can be, “Even though I have this [phobia], I fully respect and accept myself”. The practitioner will lead you through various tapping routines, tapping an assortment of different parts of your body. These usually start on the face and move through to the chest, under your arm and the on to your fingers. Then you will be asked to tap a certain spot on the back of your hand and whilst doing so, moving your eyes in certain directions, humming tunes and counting out aloud from one to five.

It has been my experience (although not all of the time) that many clients find this process a little strange, even a little quirky. However, in this process I believe that two very important things occur. The first is that while you are doing these quirky actions, you are still thinking about your phobia, but slowly your mind is being taken off of it by trying to follow the practitioner’s instructions. Also humming a tune (usually “Happy Birthday”), which, just like a smile, allows us to feel a little uplifted if not daft. So basically we are beginning to change those physical feelings or responses that we associate with our phobia by mixing in new ones from what we are doing through the process of Emotional Freedom Technique. So before, our mind just had the set responses of butterflies in our tummy or a restriction in the chest, and now, it is experiencing something different and has more options on how it could feel about situations that trigger your phobia.

The second and what I believe to be the most important aspect of what I believe is occurring is that while doing all of these things you are using various parts of your brain, such as you coordination by tapping on certain parts of your body, and you’re using your memory and other parts to hum a tune. You are also using a different part to count out aloud, allowing your body and your brain to be in a different ‘environment’ from it would be when you usually experience your phobia. This gives it a new set of experiences to attach to this phobia, thus allowing your body and brain different options in responses to the phobia.

So, there it is… I believe that Emotional Freedom Technique is as simple as that; after all, isn’t it nearly always that the simplest answer is the most effective? You see, phobias, like many other negative things that occur in our minds, are just beliefs. Maybe beliefs that certain things are going to happen when we face our fears. I used to have a phobia of public speaking and although I never used to partake in it, often it effected me greatly. Every time that I thought about doing it, I would begin to feel my own phobic responses and would start to feel nervous and embarrassed. I was feeling all these things because I believed that if I did speak publicly, I would stumble on my words and that I would look ridiculous and blush. Because this belief was active, I experienced all of the physical trappings that went with this phobia, until I decided to work on it and create a positive belief to have in its place.

I hope that this article has begun to challenge your beliefs about how effective processes like Emotional Freedom Technique actually work. However, I also hope that whatever beliefs you have in life will also be challenged! Once upon a time, the world’s leading minds thought that the world was flat. That belief was challenged, and now we believe it to be round. Some days I wonder whether the things that we believe today about the universe, about love, happiness and success aren’t just beliefs waiting to be developed, aren’t just hypotheses waiting to be disproved. If you take nothing else away from this article today, please take away the fact that Believing is Seeing – when we believe, we will see. When we have limiting beliefs, we will be limited in our achievements. When we have beliefs that are positive and well formed, we can break through our limitations and achieve the life of our dreams!

[Docresults]

Hello, my name is Richard MacKenzie.

I hope that this article has begun to challenge your beliefs about how effective processes like Emotional Freedom Technique actually work.

Richard,

How well versed are you on what the group or it's members know about EFT or any of the other Energy Psychology's? Who in the group needs their beliefs challenged about effective change work? I'm fairly new to the group and yet I haven't read anyone saying Energy Psychology's done work or are not effective.

Did you know that over 8 years ago a least one member of this group was teaching his hypnosis clients EFT as bodynosis since it gets the results in the individual from the body to the mind vs hypnosis working from the mind to the body?

Do you know there is a Technology that has been called EFT on Steriods as it combines Energy Psychology, hypnotic suggestion and NLP, parts, Time Line, Forgiveness, Future Pacing, Perceptual Positions in the process and it is considered the Shallow Technique?

To Your Best,
Doc

A man walks into a bar with a slab of asphalt under his arm and says: "A beer please, and one for the road." My Grampa Vetter

[skip]

Err ... uh ...thanks Richard.

Why does this smell, to me, like a drive by spamming?

Is it because of Richards assumption that we NEED our beliefs changed about EFT, as Houston points out?

Is it because Richard displays the claibration skills of a gnat by failing to have even tired a 'search' about EFT before posting? If Richard had seen what people here have posted about EFT in the past, would he still have written his post as he did?

Is it because Richard, who has never posted here before, delivers what amounts to a sales pitch, and then conveniently leaves his url to his forum?

What is it that makes my finger purposefully move to the delete button, only to hover, because I am already a firm believer in EFT?

The other day, in the grocery store, I happened to be passing the canned meat section. That is where you can find Spam, among other things. And I NOTICED they now have "SPAM WITH CHEESE".

WOW!

And now that you have seen an example (IMO), you can wonder as I do, is it is really an improvement.

Richard, if you really did just wander in here, in all innocence, with stars in your eyes, and naivete in your heart; my sincere apologies.

If not ...

cheers,

skip

[Docresults]

Not pimento cheese and spam.

I responded because he joined in 2005 and had zero post and I didn't want to wind up behind the mouse and then get the cheese.

To Your Best,
Doc

[Terry (existing)]

It does sound like an ad doesn't it? Like you, I smell spam with cheese, and wonder at the direction of the post, since it would seem to be preaching to the converted, or advertising in the wrong place. Funny how some posts just touch you in the wrong places eh?
Richard, I have no idea how long you have practised, or how skilled you are, but I should warn you, be careful what you claim, since many of us are highly skilled and practised, and will catch you out if you attempt to lie to us. To aproach this board with anything but respect for the members would be foolish indeed, so you have got off to a very bad start with your attitude of, "I know it, so I will teach you". To me it suggests you know little or nothing except what you have read, so join the rest of us in the trenches before you offer to act as an instuctor, and if you don;t like the reception, remember, it is based on what you exuded in your first post here, and we don;t like what we read.

[Henrik]

Speaking of EFT (which I like), I've been subscribing to Gary Craig's newsletter for some months.

Some days ago, one of his newsletter featured an article about EFT and fork bending :eek:.

Article link: http://www.emofree.com/Articles2/fork-bending.htm?WT.mc_id=N_Dec04_Feature2

If I ever needed to bend a fork, I most probably would go for brute force and muscle power (being young and strong :D), or use a hammer, or buy a new one.

But if any of this boards respected and knowlegdeable members have conducted similar experiments - with successful results or not - I for one would like to hear about it.

Bend it like a banana,
Henrik

[tdiamond]

YAAAA Hooo for EFT... i like it.... I like it... the post however... spam and cheese for sure...:)

[Jack]

And warmly to you too, Richard.

I have an egg, I will now go suck it.

Jack

[solaris152000]

That's some pretty big claims made in the first post.

I can't help but think, there's alot of similar techniques going around: Change your Handwriting to change your personality, Tab Meridian Lines, Rub a crystal on your forehead, Sing a Magic song...

It's basically a Placebo effect, which isn't a basic thing at all.

I don't like however how magical energy changers, charge people hundred of pounds for their "Skills" when in reality, a sugar pill and a fairy dance could do the same. Is it really ethical to charge people alot of money, when you're not doing anything? How are hypnosis and NLP different I wonder, I think they are, but do they rely on the same principles?


-Danny

[Henrik]

I feel no need to defend EFT. Or anything else for that matter. But by claiming EFT is just a placebo effect, I would claim that one doesn't know EFT properly. "Placebo effect" has the scent of ignorance in my little world... But that's just me.

Before I claim such a thing I probably should ask what you mean by placebo effect. That of course is no easy question to answer. I imagine.

If one defines hypnosis as bypassing the critical factor, energy work like EFT is one way to help accomplish this.

Henrik

[solaris152000]

Okay, what I'm saying is that the meridians described in your EFT thing do not exist. The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better,

[Henrik]

Okay, what I'm saying is that the meridians described in your EFT thing do not exist. The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better,

I used to believe that too. Then I went to university and studied mathematics, physics and computer technology/software programming. And believed it even more.

I still like my math, physics and computers. Well, sometimes I really dislike them ;). But I no longer hold (what I today see as) the narrow view I had back then.

Energy or no energy. Energy channels or not. What is energy? In a sense it is just a word. It is no easy task to describe/define energy.

But if you have not yet experienced real energy work (well I would say you unconsciously experience it every moment) I think you will be in for a surprise on how it can affect your feelings and mood :).

Henrik

[solaris152000]

I have more faith in science than my own eyes as it were.

[Henrik]

Having faith in science is a good thing in my view.

But what is science? It is not something static, but a creature that grows and matures constantly.

One famous quote from science history made by the physicist Albert Michelson (if I remember correctly) was something like "the important fundamental laws and facts of physical science are all discovered".

That was before relativity theory and quantum mechanics...

Maybe we are just arguing semantics and agree totally. I have a feeling we are not. And that is okay. Maybe I'm just tired and express my point of view clumsy. I have a feeling I am.

But in regard to EFT you said "The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better".

Then I would ask what makes up a belief? I would claim that some kind of sensory stimuli is a big part of a belief. And that such sensory stimuli "speaks" to our subconscious. And trigger and reinforces our believes. And I would also say that EFT (and other type of energy work) can help change the way our subconscious perceives/decrypt the sensory stimuli. And therefore help bypass the critical factor. And that way help change a belief.

Then again, what is a sensory stimuli? Energy?

Am I sure about all this? No. I'm sure about nothing. Well, that is not true. I do know that I'm really tired now so the next thing I'll do is get my a*s of this chair, go home and sleep.

Nice talking with you solaris,
Henrik

[Don]

Okay, what I'm saying is that the meridians described in your EFT thing do not exist. The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better,


If that's true, what is the following also true?

According to the National Institutes of Health:
Preclinical studies have documented acupuncture's effects, but they have not been able to fully explain how acupuncture works within the framework of the Western system of medicine that is commonly practiced in the United States.
In 1997, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) issued a consensus statement on acupuncture that concluded that
there is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value.
The NIH consensus statement said that the data in support of acupuncture are as strong as those for many accepted Western medical therapies and added that there is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy... There is reasonable evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain... reasonable studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia...
The NIH consensus statement summarized and made a prediction:
Acupuncture as a therapeutic intervention is widely practiced in the United States. While there have been many studies of its potential usefulness, many of these studies provide equivocal results because of design, sample size, and other factors. The issue is further complicated by inherent difficulties in the use of appropriate controls, such as placebos and sham acupuncture groups. However, promising results have emerged, for example, showing efficacy of acupuncture in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma, in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.

[Terry (existing)]

It really isn't something worth discussing in my opinion. Either you try it, it works, and you are convinced. OR, you try it, it doesn't work and you are certain it is all a con. Makes no difference to me. I have seen it all, know it works, and have no intention of trying to convince anyone else, it is a matter of personal choice. When someone is diagnosed with something serious, and told there is not cure or hope, they have two choices, give up, or seek help were they are not told it is hopeless. Hypnosis or an allied field is one place. Faith Healing is another. Question is. "what would you do?" Me, I have tried both, and both worked for me. Need I say more? Your opinion is just as valid as mine, "for you that is", so why would I argue with you over it?

[Poodle]

I don't have much experience in this area but it is quite interesting. It first started with a Charleyhorse (sp?) and I did EFT for it and it amazingly went away immediately after the tapping. Now, if it can do that, what else can it do? I'm not going to say NO until someone proves NO to me.

[Henrik]

I'm not going to say NO until someone proves NO to me.

Agreed.

And if we never dare to think and research the unthinkable and question and expand on the known we will always be the last to know.

Which is not the mindset of the curious :).

Curious Henrik

[Jack]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that EFT works. Some of the time.

All therapies work some of the time, and I agree with Danny that often the placebo effect is at cause. Beyond the statistical probability that a therapy might work is the area where a therapy works most of the time.

Hypnotherapy and NLP fall into that latter category. Indian Head Massage, for instance (a random choice), falls into the former, IMO. Acupuncture, acupressure, TFT and EFT fall somewhere in between, so should be taken seriously.

When I use EFT, the client enters a trance state simply because they are creating an internal dialogue, and this is helped by the repetitive nature of the tapping sequence and the mantra of the affirmation. But it is not hypnotherapy, even though it may be hypnosis because I, as the therapist have no further input than that initially provided, and no control over the direction of the internal dialogue or indeed the outcome.

As Terry has said, if it works for you, go with it. If it does not then find out if it works for others and check if you are totally alone in the belief that it does not. If you are, it does not necessarily mean you are wrong, it just means that the liklihood that you are is increased.

Jack

[skip]

Solaris,

If you do not trust your own senses, which incidentally are the only way you are even aware of science, how do you ...?

I get the impression that you dont 'trust' EFT, from an intellectual point of view, without ever having tried using it. 'I dont care if it does work, it doesnt make sense.'

Now for something you can learn to do free, and takes only a few seconds to try, does the above seem like an intelligent approach to you?

I suspect I would have more respect or your position if after having done it either successfully or unsuccessfully, you were to draw a conclusion.

What do you think?

Or have I misinterpreted?

skip

[solaris152000]

Skip,
What happens to me, I can dismiss, and should dismiss as my mind playing tricks on me or whatever when there is no supporting evidence. I mean, I've had what felt like very close to Astral Projection once, it was like nothing I've ever felt before. But, in retrospect, I don't think my 'soul' was leaving my body or whatever, but endorphins beign released into ones brain. As medical science has shown can happen.

The way I think about it is, is that it's very easy to see something and think you've seen a ghost. Think a psychic predicted you getting run over. Or that you have just used EFT to unblock a meridian. This is why we have Science, to look objectively at things, and show us what's really at work. I have no doubt, that were EFT a real phenomenom Science would have proven it.

[Soren K (existing)]

This is why we have Science, to look objectively at things, and show us what's really at work. I have no doubt, that were EFT a real phenomenom Science would have proven it.

What would the criteria for proving something be? How objective is science (and in what sense of objective)? I.e. who decides what gets investigated and why? Why that and not this? Medicine should be the model equivalent here, so I might be inclined to ask... what determines a medical treatment successful and in what respects does this differ from that of the alternative treatment (EFT)? What would science be aiming to prove if there was funding to spend on determining the causal efficacy of EFT? And, finally, should such a technique prove successful (I'm thinking, drug trials are succesful if they cure whatever percentage of people in the test (....Don!!!), what would make one explanation e.g. that the mind does the causal work a better explanation than the energy meridians scenario? I know jack sh** about this really, but these seem like fair questions.

[Don]

I've had what felt like very close to Astral Projection once, it was like nothing I've ever felt before. But, in retrospect, I don't think my 'soul' was leaving my body or whatever, but endorphins beign released into ones brain.

What does Astral Projection "feel like?"

Is it possible that you have expectations about what AP should feel like but having nothing to do with it?

Why do you think AP is about the "soul" leaving the body?

What is the "whatever" you are describing here?

Endorphins give nice feelings and relieve pain. Why do you think something "close to Astral Projection" is just nice feelings and relief of pain?

[Jack]

Personally, I have no idea what 'astral projection' feels like since I have never experienced it.

But since all experience is by necessity, subjective, then it follows that it is completely logical to expect every experience to be different.

So, the opinion expressed by Solaris about his own experence is just as good as any other opinion expressed by those who feel that they have experienced 'real' 'astral projection'. If he believes that the soul leaves the body then that is a belief that he has and to be respected. If he believes that the experience is related to a release of endorphins, then no-one can argue with him, since the experience is subjective.

There is no point in arguing ' but why do you believe this to be true?'; he believes it because it is is own experience, as everyone else does with their beliefs.

If he believes that EFT is not proven, then, on a scientific basis, he is right.

Jack

[Henrik]

I have no doubt, that were EFT a real phenomenom Science would have proven it.

Hi, again.

I was thinking - it happens :rolleyes: - and figured I should post one more comment on this subject.

That quote of yours can be read like "everything there is to prove science has already proved". Maybe I'm stretching my imagination here?

Anyway, I really have no idea what you mean by science. But I can make a guess. And speculate.

Maybe you think mathematics and number theory is science? If so, you could read about Kurt Gödel. Maybe you already have?

He's one of history's more famous mathematicians, doing work at Princeton university and being friends with Albert Einstein.

He is known for his Incompleteness Theorems. And possible schizophrenia. But back to his Incompleteness Theorems. It is one of the more important theorems proven in the last century.

David Hilbert, maybe the most famous "modern" mathematicians ever, had a dream to formalize all existing (and future) math to a finite and complete set of axioms that were so called consistent. Then Gödel came along with his theorems and proved that this was impossible. With all it's implications.

Another way of saying all this is that Gödel proved truth will elude us. And these theorems are also a prime example of mathematics and philosophy merging.

So science is not so clear-cut as one might wish and like to think. Now I have of course assumed you believe mathematics is science...

Henrik :)

[Soren K (existing)]

There is no point in arguing ' but why do you believe this to be true?'; he believes it because it is is own experience, as everyone else does with their beliefs.

If he believes that EFT is not proven, then, on a scientific basis, he is right.

Jack
So if he believed 'Jack stole the cookies' we would just have to respect that and get on with it? What if he was an opinion former? Would it be to no one's benefit (nor his own) to explore his beliefs? Maybe the forum should just be - okay give your opinion now everyone shut up and make up your own mind. But how does one make up their own mind? Actually, I think it is best to discuss issues and opinions. That's what makes me make up my mind (or some of it)... There is always a point to arguing 'why believe that', that doesn't mean you don't respect someone else's beliefs, rather, only that you don't agree, have and interest for some other purpose, or want to explore an idea, etc., etc. At the very least it shows the man some respect to entertain his worldview, and to do so one must first be in a position to understand it. ILet's not stiffle what could be interesting and promote the exploration of ideas, no?

To your best
Soren

[Jack]

Soren, if you read what Solaris said then you will note that he has explained what his subjective experience was concerning 'astral projection'.

Having explained it, you would now like him to explain it again? What was there to understand? Would you like him to explain every single word? Perhaps you would like to attack his explanation? He was not stating his explanation as fact, he was stating it as opinion. There is a difference.

And if he believed that I did steal the cookies, then I would rebut it if I had not stolen the cookies, but that would not take us any further on since it is his opinion and only I would know that it is incorrect. He might provide all sorts of 'evidence' that I had stolen the cookies and you and others might be persuaded that I was indeed the cookie thief because given evidence you would begin to believe that opinion was fact. The fact would remain that I had not stolen the cookies, but you might believe that I had, and your 'exploration of ideas' would be a futile and misleading exercise.

Now, if someone comes on this forum and says 'I am God', then quite reasonably most of us would ask for some form of corroboration. If Solaris comes along and says 'I mean, I've had what felt like very close to Astral Projection once, it was like nothing I've ever felt before. But, in retrospect, I don't think my 'soul' was leaving my body or whatever, but endorphins beign released into ones brain' there is no need for any proof, that is a subjective experience and one cannot argue with it, unless one is very dumb.

I do not have a problem with the discussion of opinions. But I do have a problem with the question 'why do you have that opinion?' when it is asked without an explanation of an alternative opinion, because the question implies, in a patronising manner, that the (subjective) opinion in question is not correct and gives the impression of an attempt to browbeat someone simply because their experience is different from that of the questioner.

By the way, I did not steal the cookies...on this occasion.

Jack

[Soren K (existing)]

By the way, I did not steal the cookies...on this occasion.

Jack
I didn't ask Solaris why he held the opinion about astral projection, so apologies for any misunderstanding.

However, you also said:
If he believes that EFT is not proven, then, on a scientific basis, he is right.
I did challenge the criteria for establishing this which you seem to be suggesting because its his opinion he is in some sense right to hold it regardless of all other opinions. Maybe he is. I thought I'd ask why? Solaris may or may not hold to his opinion after an alternative broader picture is established. I don't see him as someone who needs defending from 'browbeaters' (I think that's a pitiful way to look at the world... no offence).. As a general principle: stand up for yourself and fight back for f**** sake! (not you personally, Jack, nor Solaris...(unless you feel that's something your lacking of course (but that is not evident in this thread to date))

Soren

[Jack]

No, you did not ask Solaris that particular why, and my words were not addressed to the content of your posts.

I did challenge the criteria for establishing this which you seem to be suggesting because its his opinion he is in some sense right to hold it regardless of all other opinions. Maybe he is. I thought I'd ask why?

Of course anyone is right to hold an opinion regardless of other opinions. I am surprised that you might think otherwise. It would be comforting, although a little chilling to think that everyone in the world
had the same thought processes, rational, logical and unaffected by any emotional or sensory artefacts, but that is not the way we poor, earth crawling beings conduct our short lives. But I understand your point.

I am not defending Solaris from browbeaters, as you say he is completely capable of defending himself, if he feels the need to do so. In a broad sense I was and I am concerned that when a subjective experience is related it is pounced upon as heresy. I know you did not do this, but when you say 'stand up and fight back' I am sure that you realise that it is almost impossible to argue a subjective case: the thing happened, and that's that.

Pitiful? I would beg to disagree. If it were the case that I was defending someone from what I perceived as an injustice then I would count myself lucky to be able to do so. Unfortunately, I am only defending my own sense of rightness, which is in itself, subjective.

Jack

[solaris152000]

Soren K,

I'm not going to explain the Scientific model here, this should explain things though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Scientific_method

Don,
The reason I believe my experience was not 'paranormal/magical' in nature is becuase Science has given me a more plausable explanation that is backed up by evidence.

Henrik,
I'm a maths student myself, Maths is not really a science. There are very few maybes in Maths. Once something is prooven, it is true for all eternity. If there is an alein civilisation somewhere, who have studied maths. They will have knowledge of the same rules we have discovered, Maths is true everywhere, unlike Science, in which whilst theories are prooven, they are often disprooved. It's always changing. Very very few mathmatical proofs will ever show to be incorrect, except the ones built on unsound axioms of course.

If maths is a Science, it is the purest of them all.

I feel I must clarify the reasoning behind my 'Astral Projection' example, it was to show that whilst I may go to a EFT person and think I have been cured by magical meridian lines, when we look at that scientifically, there are far better conclusions to reach with much better reasoning behind them.

[Soren K (existing)]

Soren K,

I'm not going to explain the Scientific model here, this should explain things though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Scientific_method



pfft... an insult? <top lip twitches subtely on right hand side>

[Don]

Don,
The reason I believe my experience was not 'paranormal/magical' in nature is becuase Science has given me a more plausable explanation that is backed up by evidence.

But Solaris, I didn't ask you if you believed your experience was anything.

You made a claim:
"I've had what felt like very close to Astral Projection once, it was like nothing I've ever felt before. But, in retrospect, I don't think my 'soul' was leaving my body or whatever, but endorphins beign released into ones brain."

I responded with five questions:

"What does Astral Projection "feel like?"

"Is it possible that you have expectations about what AP should feel like but having nothing to do with it?

"Why do you think AP is about the "soul" leaving the body?

"What is the "whatever" you are describing here?

"Endorphins give nice feelings and relieve pain. Why do you think something "close to Astral Projection" is just nice feelings and relief of pain?"

Now I'll add a sixth: Why are you refusing to answer any of the questions I asked?

[Henrik]

Hi.

First, I think you elegantly skipped the part of what was the meat in my previous comment I was, the Incompleteness Theorems and Gödel...


I'm a maths student myself,

Cool! It's been a while since I was a student myself though (well, I still read and try to learn. Not so much math anymore, I probably have forgotten more than I should). What kind of math? Analysis/calculus or are you more of a purist type? Topology, number theory, pure logic...


Maths is not really a science.

Well, I think math is the purest form of science. Which it looks like you might agree with. But this is more or less semantics, even though imo it fits well as a definition of science within the context of much of this thread.


There are very few maybes in Maths.

Within the realm of the axioms there are no maybes in math... This is probably the reason why I (and many others?) find math to have a raw beauty :)


If there is an alein civilisation somewhere, who have studied maths. They will have knowledge of the same rules we have discovered

Not necessarily true imo. If they build their math on the same axioms as we do, then yes. But it is my opinion that the purest axioms we have in math resonate with our five (proven) senses. What if these aliens don't have the same senses? Our senses are the foundation/walls that these axioms rest on. And then you have Kurt Gödel and his wing of mathematicians who come and shake these walls.

On a side note, read "Men of Mathematics" if you not already have. It's a classic and a relatively light read (for those who know a bit of math). I think you will enjoy the book.


Very very few mathmatical proofs will ever show to be incorrect

Many mathematical theorems have been proved and then disproved. But that's because they weren't proved in the first place ofc. And who can blame the poor mathematician? Fermat's last theorem, THE most famous theorem, was finally proved by Andrew Wiles (with help) some few years ago. After some 350 years with trial and error. Which you probably are very much aware of. The proof was X 100s of pages if I remember correctly. And very few had the skills and knowlegde to read it. Math has an inborn tendency to get complicated...


except the ones built on unsound axioms of course.

And that's the crux ;)

I'm very much for believing in science. I think there is no reason to abandon pure thought and reasoning, climb up a tree and declare yourself to be the new reincarnation of buddha with magical powers. But imo science is also the knowledge of knowing that we as earthlings have much to learn and our science has (infinite) to prove. So even though I believe in math I also believe in EFT, regardless of me not being able to logically explain or scientifically "prove" EFT. Yet. And I see no contradictions in believing in both. But they are just my beliefs, and not some you should adopt if you wish not to ofc. It's a matter of choice.

Someone once said the most flexible wins :D

I wish you all the best with your studies. And I also wonder if mister Richard MacKenzie was expecting this to turn out to be a "math thread" ;)

Henrik

[Simon]

As I noticed, EFT was great with small to moderate emotional responses and is not as effective with phobias and similar. Was my observation far off?

I'd also like to add that it is really interesting to search about WHY does something produce results, but to reject it because it lacks the explanation in the context you want it to be?

[Docresults]

Okay, what I'm saying is that the meridians described in your EFT thing do not exist. The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better,
Solaris,

Until you have worked with more than 5000 people using an Energy Psychology or Spiritual Technology please be aware that your beliefs are showing. And all a belief is, is a thought that you have repeated to yourself long enough to make it YOUR truth, not the truth.

When I first started using EP's (EFT) and ST's (PEAT, Deep PEAT, DP3) most of my clients (Hypnosis at the time) had zero to negative beliefs that this tapping (EFT) stuff or touching and breathing (Shallow PEATwith NLP) stuff could or would do anything.

With EFT, even after it worked so well and so fast they were blaming it on everything EXCEPT the tapping.

When I took clients who still had cravings and had them use EFT at the moment of craving even though they didn't think anything would happen and get reports back that it was amazing how well it worked, that is when I started calling it Bodynosis.

Energy Psychology does from the body (energy) level [bodynosis] what hypnosis does from the mental level, eliminate challenges.

To Your Best,
Doc

P.S. In the same way the meridians do not exist, isn't that the same for the mind? The last time I checked when they cut people open not only could they not find the meridians they couldn't find the mind either since they don't exist , don't think now... stop it.... quit it.... now.

"Corduroy pillows: They're making headlines!" MY Grampa Vetter

[Docresults]

As I noticed, EFT was great with small to moderate emotional responses and is not as effective with phobias and similar. Was my observation far off?

Simon,

As far as I have been able to determine (and I do a lot of testing and experimenting with stuff I find interesting) EFT is very good with any type of emotional charge and most unwanted situations have emotional charge. It does not matter the what it is, phobia or simply dislike for another person. From an energy metaphor, energy is energy it is either flowing or blocked/restricted.

Where you may have observed the less effectiveness may have been and usually is in the skill of the practitioner (hypnotist, sound familiar?). The more competent the EFT practitioner is the more effective the process.

That is why when I use it I use a protocol that utilizes some elements from NLP/HPE. (parts, time-line, forgiveness, future pace, perceptual positions) and focuses on where one feels the resistance in the body instead of repeating a "reminder phrase". It has been described as "EFT on Steriods".

Again as I said in another post my opinion is EFT or other Energy Psychology's do on the physical (feeling) level what hypnosis does on the mental mind level. Why not do both (hint, hint). {If your belief system allows and even if it doesn't could you suspend your beliefs, leave them hanging, until you learned an EP well enough to apply it as well as hypnosis and then test them together and notice how your percentages go up.)

To Your Best,
Doc

"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague." My Grampa Vetter

[Docresults]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that EFT works. Some of the time.

All therapies work some of the time, and I agree with Danny that often the placebo effect is at cause. Beyond the statistical probability that a therapy might work is the area where a therapy works most of the time.

Hypnotherapy and NLP fall into that latter category. Indian Head Massage, for instance (a random choice), falls into the former, IMO. Acupuncture, acupressure, TFT and EFT fall somewhere in between, so should be taken seriously.Jack

Jack,

I suspect the statistical probability of the working therapies we are discussing here including Indian Head Massage, depend greatly and largely on the skill and ability of the practitioner. I have witnessed, except for the IHM, practitioners of all the other modalities get good results on issues.

The why can be varied and many depending on the model or frame we were using.

I like Richard's idea sugar pills labeled "Extra Strength Placebo's", since placebo's work 40-45% of the time, their twice as effective. If it's really bad we're gonna give you these XXX Strength Placebo's.

To Your Best,
Doc

"Can a hearse carrying a corpse drive in the carpool lane?" My Grampa Vetter

[Poodle]

You heard that one too. LOL! I state for the record 100% acupuncture WORKS and has been working for centuries. It is the only thing that is keeping this old dawg out of the OR for going on 4 years now. I would never had considered it if it were not for my cousin who was in horrible pain and the MD's could not help. She had a fantastic job and had to take early retirement. She found acupuncture and she's doing great! We also have acupuncture here now for animals too. Try telling a dog what a placebo is. I read an article in Parade Magazine that acupuncture is the placebo effect -- right -- want to tell that to the dogs? It's not the quick route for sure but it does WORK.

[Jack]

EFT work on Ferrets too. I have no idea why. Could never get them to do the affirmations.

Jack

[tdiamond]

Okay, what I'm saying is that the meridians described in your EFT thing do not exist. The methods used do not work becuase you are blocking energy channels or whatever, but becuase the subject believes they are going to get better,

its all pretend, life is your illusion.. it works when it is believed.. it does not work when it isnt

[Poodle]

I had no idea if EFT would work or not. I didn't like the pain so decided to give it a go. It worked even though I really did NOT believe as I had NOTHING to base a belief on. There is a reality whether you want to believe in it or not. :p

[Soren K (existing)]

Of course anyone is right to hold an opinion regardless of other opinions. I am surprised that you might think otherwise. It would be comforting, although a little chilling to think that everyone in the world
had the same thought processes, rational, logical and unaffected by any emotional or sensory artefacts, but that is not the way we poor, earth crawling beings conduct our short lives. But I understand your point.

I am not defending Solaris from browbeaters, as you say he is completely capable of defending himself, if he feels the need to do so. In a broad sense I was and I am concerned that when a subjective experience is related it is pounced upon as heresy. I know you did not do this, but when you say 'stand up and fight back' I am sure that you realise that it is almost impossible to argue a subjective case: the thing happened, and that's that.

Pitiful? I would beg to disagree. If it were the case that I was defending someone from what I perceived as an injustice then I would count myself lucky to be able to do so. Unfortunately, I am only defending my own sense of rightness, which is in itself, subjective.

Jack
Fair enough points Jack, for the record I do agree everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't lead me to think all opinions are equally meritorious (nor, I would contest, does anyone), so to clear up the ambiguity on 'right' I didn't mean it in the sense that he's not entitled to it, he (and anyone) is... and if they have plenty reason then I've no major difficulty with that (even when they don't it's ultimately their business).

On the pitiful business, I should be more tentative, since I'm not fully worked out on this issue. What I'll say, and we can discuss it if you like, is that prima facie I've no problem with defending people as long as it is their realisation of the injustice imposed upon them. I'm not comfortable with something about it, and it seems to me to be something to do with 'my' perception of injustice making a victim out of people... seems to have something of imposition of ideals about it, and doesn't seem to me to encourage responsibility... again, this is prima facie, so I'll leave it to see what you think.

Cheers,
Soren

[Jack]

Soren, I can agree that not all opinions are equally meritorious, but it is a value judgement and should be recognised as such.

I take your point about imposing values and creating victims. Ultimately, it is another judgement call about what person, or which principle is worth defending, and whether the creation of a single victim is worth the defence of the principle for the benefit of many more potential victims.

And I even agree with your idea about responsibility. My only quibble would be that it may be the responsibility of the informed to inform the uninformed, but that even when they are informed if they are incapable of utilising that information for their own benefit - low intelligence, socio-economic status, illness, personality - for the informed who understand the information to defend them against exploitation.

I would mention moral imperatives, but that is a quagmire out of which I would prefer to keep, as my old Phil lecturer used to say. He is dead now, so perhaps he should have given it a go!

Jack

[tdiamond]

I have more faith in science than my own eyes as it were.

you still havent watched The secret... or read hidden messages in water ( written by a scientist).. have you...

why dont you give those a whirl...

its apparent you arent wanting to trust, believe or what have you, the others in this group..

[Poodle]

I heard Richard wanted to sell empty capsules as Extra Strength - not sugar pills. FDA just would not buy it. Sometimes I use the same premise when doing pain relief -- I have a needle here full of Zylocain and it's not ordinary Zyclocain -- it's super dooper strength Zylacain like the world has never known and .... I think Richard reserved the "sugar" for LSD. Mmmm, that was a long time ago or maybe just a Bandler meta4. Ya just never know with him although being about the same age and having a lot of the same life experiences helps, maybe.