shamanism and psychadelics.

[Dreamweaver]

I'm pretty new to the philosophies of shamanism, but I'm quite into psychadelics as a way of expanding consciousness. I have taken psilocybin mushrooms and ayahuasca brews. From what I have researched the traditional shaman use the same substances to communicate with other levels of existence.
I wonder if the so called modern shamen, and the courses that they run and attend, advocate such practices and if they don't how can they claim to be truly following shamanic traditions and not just some other variation on the approach of hypnosis and trance work. Is the shamanic tradition simply being used to bring in the cash?

[Sky]

My personal opinion is that just as science evolves and the different species evolve, etc… so does spirituality. I believe that a Shaman truly aware of and connected to their high self/spirit does NOT need external help of any kind to expand their consciousness or tap into other levels of existence. We don’t live in the past.. so our tools and rituals don’t need to either…



All good things,

Sky

[Terry]

I'm pretty new to the philosophies of shamanism, but I'm quite into psychadelics as a way of expanding consciousness. I have taken psilocybin mushrooms and ayahuasca brews. From what I have researched the traditional shaman use the same substances to communicate with other levels of existence.
I wonder if the so called modern shamen, and the courses that they run and attend, advocate such practices and if they don't how can they claim to be truly following shamanic traditions and not just some other variation on the approach of hypnosis and trance work. Is the shamanic tradition simply being used to bring in the cash?
I wonder where you did your research? Probably on the internet, were anyone can publish anything annonymously, and find those who will believe them sight unseen........The true Shaman did NOT use drugs to develop their minds or their bodies, they did it all naturally over many years of training.Terry

[Dreamweaver]

Oh how wrong I think you are. My first research came from the book "Breaking open the head " by Daniel pinchbeck. Ayahuasca is definately a shamanic brew.
So is Iboga/Ibogaine. And the original tradition of magic mushrooms. My question was not to ask if they used them, but rather to enquire if so called modern practitioners do, or are they just latching on to a name in which to con the public, you have infact answered my question. How do you believe they made their journeys into the spirit world, don't fool yourself into believing it was with concentration and effort. The knowledge and tradition came from knowing how to interpret the journey taken on these substances.
Other sources of research came from the works of Timothy Leary and Terrence Mckenna who discovered such substance whilst researching plants in the Amazon.
I like the anaology that the so called modern shamen are like martial artists claiming to be samurai warriors.

[arnk2u]

What an interesting way to justify your use of recreational drugs..LOL

I'm lucky enough to count many Native American Shaman in my circle of friends. I was born and raised in Oklahoma and then spent years living in Colorado and New Mexico. I have learned much from them and have attended humdreds of medicine circles and healing ceremonies. But never, have they advocated drug use to expand their "consciousness" !
These days self awareness is done through meditation and education..learning of the ancestors and learning how they can help their forebearers.
Drugs and alcohol are a major problem within the Native American population. They certainly don't want or need a standard bearer such as a Shaman, being prtrayed as as mushroom taking, pipesmoking druggie in this day and age...
If you truly want to learn the Shaman Way, then do so, and that means putting away your computer and traveling to a real Shaman on a reservation.
Take the time and effort to expand your knowkedge and learn about this wonderful culture. There is certainly much more to it than "good drugs".
Now, go ahead and bash me if you want.......:)

[Sky]

There is ALWAYS another way to do everything.... Drugs are not the only way.



Second, there are more than a few cultures where, even in the past, drugs where NEVER used for spiritual matters. In your first post you even say "I'm pretty new to the philosophies of shamanism," so you may want to do more research before you make blanket like and judgmental statements.



You are very entitled to your opinion, however I might advice you not to speak in absolutes. Not everyone who uses the term Shaman is out to make a fast buck. There are many very sincere Shaman's out there. But then again, even the definition of Shaman is up for debate.



And lastly, I have been a practicing Shaman for over 13 years so I personally found your comments “Oh how wrong I think you are.” AND "don't fool yourself into believing it was with concentration and effort" to be insulting and disrespectful. I suggest you do a bit more research and remain a bit more open-minded before or instead of attacking people and/or their profession.



All good things,

Sky

[j0hnny#]

you may want to read Phsychadelic Shaminism by Jim Dekorne on Shaministic uses of psychadelics



?

[Sky]

be Under Dreamweaver's post.....

Sorry it got added under arnk2u post and not dreamweavers

[Dreamweaver]

Arnk2u, I'm not out to bash anyone. I never made mention of recreational drugs, I am not interested in LSD and other chemical substances. I am interested in the plant use of mind expansion. If you wish to learn more then consider this:
The Bwiti tribe of the Gabon, West Africa use the plant Ibioga. Believing it is a spirit guide and teacher and allowed entry to other realms.
Payote is banned in the USA by the federal government but is permitted for use by Shamen and spiritual leaders of some native tribes.
Ayahuasca is a brew that is used to journey into the spirit world and is consider a plant spirit guide. If anything the reply you gave is convincing me that these traditions are being lost in order to pamper to the wants of the masses.
As for alcohol, well that can be a very destructive substance.
I have come to the conclusion that raising this subject on this forum is a waste of time and energy. If you, or any one else wants to increase their knowledge in this subject then they should read the book I mentioned earlier.
I have seen both perspectives and been on both sides. I have been involved in meditation and hypnosis for over fifteen years. (when I said I am new to the ideas of shamanism I meant for four years, relatively new) Unless people have taken the substances I am talking about then they have no right to comment.
It occurs to me that westerners want to take the learnings and knowledge that the shamanic tribes have learnt with doing the hard nitty gritty and really AND I MEAN REALLY going inside themselves. It as been sanitized to make cash and delude people.

[Dreamweaver]

Sky, no offence meant, but if you choose to be offended then perhaps it is because I am presenting you with something you simply don't like the idea of. Maybe its outside of your comfort zone to take a substance which might present you with total ego loss and your own worst nightmare or paradise. Meditation will not (indeed scientifically cannot connect the parts of the brain that psilocybin does) Have you read the book I am talking abot or the book which jOnny mentions in this post.

So to educate me, please name the shamanic tradition which I can research which does not make use of plants as spirit guides. I wonder how may westerners believe they have been taught something never to realise they were not shown the Hidden secrets.

The world is full of politically correct people too afraid to face their own dark side or truly venture into other realities. I have met many such people, all hiding behind the current popular view that such practices are incorrect, appealling to the masses to make a living.

There are many fake shaman out there who are simply bestowing themselves with the title because its the latest fad. Before that it was guru, then medium then spiritualist.

[Sky]

I have indeed read the book and, *gasp* done shrooms…. And I stand by my statement that you “need” drugs to reach altered states. There ARE other ways.



What I don’t care for and found insulting is when people perpetuate untruths.



Untruth – All Shaman’s “need” psychedelics.

Untruth – All Shamans are fakes. Every bushel has a bad apple, but blanket statements do no one any good. Better to educate rather than damn the whole lot.



As for what cultures had shamans that didn’t do drugs… Check out Hawaiian Shamanism for one..



All good things,

Sky

P.S. You said "Meditation will not..." I never said anything about meditation..

[Dreamweaver]

I'm really glad you said Hawaiian shamanism. I have a very close friend who has spent many years travelling to Hawaii to learn Lomi Lomi and Huna (not with Tad James) She was told in no uncertain terms that no matter how long she trained there would always be aspects that she would never be taught because the tradition would be kept in the family.

I wonder how many people are out there convinced they are doing one thing but in a moment of quiet reflection, truly know that they are not.

So you've done mushrooms, big deal, How many, did you go to a level 5 trip? Get some Ayahuasca down your neck, half an hour later you'll be throwing up and heaving (not in anyway recreational) then the real journey begins and what you'll learn on that journey is nothing you can read about or learn on a weekend course.

It seems that I have touched a nerve in you. You selected to be offended and proceed along those lines. This is not my problem. Perhaps at some deep level you realise you've bought into the flimsy market brand.

Everybodies truth is different, heres mine. Perhaps true shamanism is dying out and
becoming something that can be purchased with out personal exploration of any real depth, where your unconscious mind and your ego will protect you from any real self knowledge.

I sense a lot of fear and disconnection from nature on this site.

I make no apologies for anything I have written. If you have read Breaking open the head, how could you ever be satified knowing that there were deeper levels of knowledge to be tasted.


I wish you well, I really do.

[Sky]

You make so many assumptions.. and at this point I choose not to keep playing... It's pointless. I will say this, however, my offense stems, not from your desire to play with drugs, but from people making blanket statements.

1 - There is always another way. (I know for a FACT there are other ways to achieve altered states other than drugs)

2 - Not all Shamans are fake. (I know for a fact not all Shamans are Fake)

My point wasn't so much in what you where saying as in how you said it. To assume a Shaman is fake because they don't do drugs, or that the person you're speaking with doesn't know what they are talking about, is ignorant (I do NOT mean this in and insulting way but in a non insulting - lack of research/education way.)

I was simply and am simply trying to STOP stereotypes. Nothing more, nothing less.

All good things,
Sky

[Terry]

When I did my study, the term, "Politically correct" was not part of anyones lexicon of terms, we leave that to the fools who fear to offend anyone at the expense of their own abilities and knowledge..... You want to do drugs, be my guest, I promise not to be shocked or offended, so long as you don't expect me to join you. On the other hand, this is a hypnosis board, not an advisory on drugs, psycadelic or otherwise, so I agree with you, go elsewere to continue this silly argument which you will not win, simply because there is nothing obtainable through drugs that I cannot obtain via the use of hypnosis, plus I can achieve far more than can be concieved by the druggy who choosed to destroy what little mind they have, rather than study and achieve the hard but better way. As for the books you quote, I am not impressed, I know O'leary to be an alcoholic, and a very rude one at that, and anyone can write anything and find a readership who will swollow it, simply because it sounds like the easy way. Read and dream, while others study and do....Terry

[Don]

With respect to all of what has been posted, I would like to in some ways side with Sky. It seems like there are a lot of absolutes going around here.

For over 10,000 years, people have used drugs. Some use them to amuse themselves. Some use them to relax. Some use them to escape reality. And some have used them to enter spiritual realms.

One of the absolutes that has been presented in the U.S. is that drug use equals drug abuse. Somebody shooting heroin every couple of days is abuse. Somebody smoking marijuana five times a day is abuse. Somebody using ritual to prepare for something that is outside of the normal consciousness, followed by the ceremonial intake of an entheogen, followed by many weeks or months examining the effects of the experience is simply not in the same class.

Respectfully, there is ample evidence that some shamanic traditions used drugs to alter the consciousness. This has nothing to do with drug abuse, popping pills, or having a cup of coffee in the morning to get going. Only after a long period of preparation and training was a person allowed to use the entheogenic substance.

However, there is also ample evidence that methods other than drugs were used by early shamans, too. In books such as Meditation and the Kabbalah, the late Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan describes how early Hebraic prophets used fasting, separation, and putting the head below the level of the knees (altering the blood flow to the brain) to achieve altered states. The goal was to communicate with God. That is the very meaning of the term "entheogen."

Another traditional method used by shamans for altering the consciousness has been the use of drumming. The use of a slow, steady rhythm can help lead a person into an altered state of consciousness suitable for shamanic work. Perhaps the most famous researcher in this area is Michael Harner.

Harner is an internationally renowned anthropologist. He started the Foundation for Shamanic Studies with a three-fold mission: to study, to teach, and to preserve shamanism. I first did shamanic work with a woman who had studied with Harner directly. To achieve the shamanic state (easily and rapidly), and rather than do repetitive drumming herself, she had me listen to a tape (created by the Foundation) which led me into an altered state and a shamanic journey.

Harner's most famous book is "The Way of the Shaman." He has found the use of drumming highly effective and safe even though he began by exploring the shamanic use of entheogens. He says that he does not use them any more.

Here in the U.S. and in much of Europe and the U.K., entheogenic substances are illegal. As Harner has shown, they are not necessary either.

[Dreamweaver]

Don, these substances are NOT illegal in the UK. Psilocybin mushrooms can be easily bought on the internet and at market stalls. They become illegal class A substances if they are frozen or dried. Salvia divinorum is easily and legally purchased in shops. and Ayahuasca is available over the net from Holland.

I agree that over use is substance abuse and is not my interest. I am, however, very interested in taking these substance as a way of exploring altered states of consciousness.

[Don]

Repsectfully, I would suggest that if you wish to use entheogens, legal or no, the situation is still that I have seen no evidence that a shaman-in-training would simply pop a drug without a long period of training and a long period of reflection following the experience. Taking drugs, IMO, does not make one a shaman. If so, a substantial number of followers of the Grateful Dead or Pink Floyd would be shamans, and I think we can agree they are not.

However, the main point of my post was to counter the belief that shamans either never took drugs or always took drugs. There was even a request for documentation on techniques used by shamans other than drug use.

I pointed out that some shamans used drugs (and I should add that such use was only for certain shamanic techniques and not the main focus of shamanis) while others did not. For documentation of a non-drug shamanic experience I offered the voluminous work of Michael Harner.

I would point out that a major part of shamanism--even among those who, on specific and rare occasions did use enthogenic substances frequently within a ritual structure--did not include the use of drugs of any kind. Examples of such use would be healing, counseling, spirit extraction, etc. Rituals for entheogenic usage might take a day or more. In some cases, the head shaman would take the entheogen along with large amounts of water as some entheogens can have deleterious and negative effects on the body. The head shaman would the urinate, using his or her body as a means of purifying many of the toxins from the substance, and the shamans-in-training, or secondary shamans, would drink concoctions that would include the head shaman's urine. Again, this is not some pop a drug and become enlightened concept.

For those people who follow a more modern Western path, it should be noted that the rather benign and moderate mystic, occultist, author, lay psychiatrist (when such were legal), Kabalist, and "magickian," Dion Fortune, supported those other magickians who used drugs. Her contention was that magickians did not use the drugs that stupify or excite, but rather those that open the mind to other realities. Further, she contended that magickians did this only to help open the doors to those levels (as some found such opennings difficult), and once the doors were open there was no reason to continue with the drugs.

I used the term "magickian" to mean a person who practices real magic as opposed to "magician," a person who performs illusions. I would also contend that her statement was--to be charitable--a bit overly simplistic.

[Dreamweaver]

Thanks for that reply, Don. You may not agree with me but at least you are giving what I beleive to be an informed reply. Never in my opening post did I use the word "drug". However, I will now. My own reason for taking these substances (and bare in mind I don't care what anyone other than my closest friends think) was to increase personal power and self knowledge, not to control others but to best understand myself.
Any good NLPer will be familier with the technique Drug of choice, in order to help their clients.
When I "do" these substances it is less than three times a year and I do take time out to comtemplate what has happened.
Whilst on my "Trip" I can gather up feelings of great inner strength and personal power which I anchor in as many rep systems as I can. I am a strong person normally however I get the feeling that the universe has much to give and draw upon. I have also found that occasionally my intuition about people has been greatly enhanced, especially if I fire of those anchors and drop partially into that state whilst listening to them.
As far as I am concerned I am an explorer of my own mind and what it is capable of, without having to follow the doctrines and dictates of others.
I am quite annoyed that this post got of to a bad start, but you live and learn.

[Simple Guy]

Hello All,

I found a very informed discussion of this topic in the book, "Cleansing
the Doors of Perception:The Religious Significance of Entheogenic
Plants and Chemicals." Smith, the author, is knowledgeable and
honest, in my opinion.

[Don]

Hi, Dreamweaver.

You are correct, you did not use the term "drug" in your original post. And perhaps I shouldn't have used it because the term is so "loaded" with meaning, whether a person is "for" their use or "against" it.

However, my point is still that although some shamans absolutely did (and do) take mind-altering substances, I would still contend that the key to shamanism is not the use of such substance per se, but rather what is done when in a state induced by such substances.

You did ask about shamanism. Respectfully, then, it seems to me that you are attempting to frame your use of entheogens within a shamanic paradigm. While you certainly may be learning much from such work, I would contend that it is not shamanism (although it may have certain parallels).

As I wrote, a shaman-in-training might study with a shaman for a long time before using entheogens in a ritual situation. You did not talk about your training, and in fact, although you have evidently done some research into the use of entheogens, you didn't seem to know about the work of Michael Harner who is quite well known in the field of shamanism. And secondly, you have given no indication that you are doing this work within a ritual situation.

So while it is true that your work with enthogens may have opened you to new possibilties, I would respectfully suggest that the shamanic framing is not accurate. Some shamans used enthogens, but using enthogens does not make a person a shaman, nor does it necessarily indicate that the experience is in any way shamanic.

[Dreamweaver]

I will be ordering the book by Harner. I was unaware of this because it did not come up on any book searches. Using entheogens with a ritual would be very interseting if a useful definition could be obtained. Sports people use rituals with meaning only to them. I would say that in preparing mushrooms it is done with great respect because I quite honestly believe they are alive and embued with a spirit which goes back thousands of years.
This might sound crazy and its not my idea, but I know many believe that the mushrooms were "engineered" to have the effect they have, by beings not of this earth.
Another reason I have for wanting to take high doses of Psilocybin is to encounter the "entities" which have been seen at high doses. and to hear the voices that have been heard ( and which scientific reasearch has been done.)
My own theory about this is that this substance can literally open you up to another frequency of existence which cannot be other wise experienced. (apologies to those of you who believe you can do this any other way)
I think psilocybin connects part of the human brain thay are not normally connected and thus alters perception.
Ayahuasca,( I have taken low doses of this but find the taste disgusting, the personal insights I received made it worthwhile) contains DMT, which is also found in the pineal gland. people who take DMT report the same sort of experience and serious scientific research suggests that there is a commonality in all the experiences as if the users are going to a real place.
Perhaps the shamen of old knew this and sought to keep it from others. I now believe that such practices do not need to be shrouded in ritual, although it is good for setting the scene.
My original post was asking if shamanism was being diluted in order to appeal to the masses, would the modern western shaman of today have made the grade in the olden days, or is it now the "in" name that has replace Guru.

[j0hnny#]

This might sound crazy and its not my idea, but I know many believe that the mushrooms were "engineered" to have the effect they have, by beings not of this earth.



....so thats what those aliens were doing in E.T. !:) heh, heh, heh...



jokin mind

[Dreamweaver]

jOnny, I never thought of that, the next time I watch it I'll just imagine they're harvesteing the intergalactic crop.:D And the farmers caught them poaching.:eek:

[Annie]

Hi Dreamweaver,

1st off, I admit to being an *abstainer* when it comes to ingesting/using drugs of the 'sort' you're referencing, including as well tobacco, pipes & alcohol - so am I disqualified from your discussion already ? :)

I've read each of the posts to date, and some of your statements in this post caught my eye :

1. > " I would say that in preparing mushrooms it is done with great respect because I quite honestly believe they are alive and embued with a spirit which goes back thousands of years.
This might sound crazy and its not my idea, but I know many believe that the mushrooms were "engineered" to have the effect they have, by beings not of this earth. "

As far as "a 'spirit' going back 1000's of years" : that might be better suited to a 'spiritual' discussion of some sort.
Personally, I believe (for whatever that's worth) that every living being is a 'created soul/spirit', that is *precious*. This explains why stopping the truck, I got out to pick the annual *caterpillar-migrations* up gently, and deposit them safely in the field, before proceeding into the drive-way. So it stopped rush-hour traffic along our 2-lane road sometimes; yup all 9 vehicles, lol. Our neighbors used to laugh at me, for being so "stupid" - but you know what ?
I wouldn't want somebody running me over, crushing/killing me, so what selfishness would possess me doing it to them ?
This also explains why I feel guilty using a herb-cide product in corners where all else fails. In order for me to agree to participate in that, I need to turn my conscience way down as I ask these plant-spirits please :) not come haunting me, later.

And as far as " mushrooms were 'engineered' to have the effect they have, by being not of this earth. " : as a 'Christian', I believe that as well. ...
in each of these 2 sentences, notice you/we used the word "believe" as the motivating/driving force, yes ?

So, what else can you choose to believe ?

2. > Another reason I have for wanting to take high doses of Psilocybin is to encounter the "entities" which have been seen at high doses. and to hear the voices that have been heard.
My own theory about this is that this substance can literally open you up to another frequency of existence which cannot be other wise experienced. (apologies to those of you who believe you can do this any other way)

Well, in this case, it's not a matter of "belief" - but actually "knowing, from experience". Experiences which you have lived already from at least the moment of your mortal conception thru around age 9 for most of your days; but you may not be able to, consciously, recall/remember. During your early childhood years you had no challenges "hallucinating entities, and hearing their voices". But as you were trained/educated to, increasingly, (focus your attention externally = obviously also needed/wanted) - most people agree forgetting their wonderful Internal skills. That's why people see a Hypnotist to help them recall/remember how to access those states/abilities, *again*.

As well besides that, every time you are very soundly asleep, who knows how your own unconscious goes about *healing, & growing, & communicating* for your benefit in times you are, consciously, trying to control your environment.

so Rest assured, that any/all perceptual-states, *& much much more, including Insights* you could ever get with any "hallucinogenic substance", your own unconscious is capable of providing you with.


3. > " there is a commonality in all the experiences as if the users are going to a real place. "

Some people call that "real place" their Higher-self.

Some people call it something else.

There's a thread I started in the "Other"-section here entitled " language(s), arising from commonly-shared experiences ... (http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?t=397) , very closely related to this. (Sadly, once again some people chose hi-jacking it.) It's a valuable thread as those people who *SANS any drug-use what-so-ever* have already, & are now communicating in those realms, are endeavoring creating a New language so we can describe more accurately what/how we are doing what we are doing.

...

Thank you for allowing me to share in your thread :)


Annie

[kayimbo]

i like seeing the arguement. dreamweaver i respect the plant based spirituality path. in my own experiance the psychedelic path will never be the same or equate to the non-psychedelic path. in your origional post you asked how a shaman could claim to be shaman without using these plants. i know many shamans who say the opposite. if the psychedelic is your element it will give you power, if other techniques are your elements it will drain your power.

caution though, the psychedelic "place" is not this place, and if you want to learn things that apply to this "place" psychedelics are usually not the answer. despite what i've seen on MAPS, research with practicing psychics has indicated that in telepathic and remote viewing experiments psychotropic drugs (with the exception of caffiene) have been shown to inhibit psychic accurracy in both the short and long term. also, although i don't believe in it, most channelers/clairvoyants do not advocate psychedelic use.

[DIM]

Fact is the South American shamanic traditions involve visionary plants. Ayahuasca, yopo snuff, salvia divinorum, magic mushrooms, san pedro cacti, peyotl, etc. Visionary plants are CURRENTLY used in indigenous cultures by CURRENT shamans. The REAL DEAL. Period.

Just because the current social winds blow your so-called 'druggy' stereotype to prison and pariahdom doesn't change the FACT that current shamanic traditions utilize visionary substances STILL and to this day.

Santo Daime is now a recognized and socially accepted religion in Brazil and South America. They use ayahuasca as a SACRAMENT. Not your 'druggy' excuse. The Native American Church here in the US has won the right to administer the SACRAMENT peyote to white members in Utah, ruling the restriction based on membership in a Indian Tribe as racist. Two RECOGNIZED and accepted and legally protected religions using visionary substances belie your 'druggy' prejudices.

Also I take exception to you stereotyping entheogen use as only fitting a shamanic/recreational duality. Many of us Deadheads used LSD both recreationally and spiritually. Few if any claim shamanic use. Also Shultz discovered psilocybe mushrooms being used in a religious/shamanic/curandero context. Not at a Pink Floyd concert. And Santo Daime and the Native American Church use their visionary plants as Sacraments not shamanic tools or neat new highs. And LSD and Psilocin were psychological tools and therapeutic agents before they were hijacked as symbols of social upheaval and hippy stereotypes. These are not the tools or sacraments of yesteryear, but of today. Period. And yes, they have a long history, and a range of uses.

[Unregistered]

sorting the noise from information is difficult regarding drugs and altered states of perception period.my hypnotherapy and nlp practice is all about shamanism and alterred states and it shakes the foundations of the status quo in our community here in burlington canada.it doesn`t change the fact that people need an effective way to stop smoking,lose wieght and leart effective ways to live thier lives.no alternative is provided by medicine,psychiatry or government.WE are the ones who must pich up the riegns and allow the horse the opportunity to pull the cart in a new direction.
peace,alistair. www.tools4change.ca

[Unregistered]

I realize this is not a psychedelic site but wanted to add my 2 (or more) cents since the topic has come up.

My reading suggests that the indigineous people who use these plants refer to them as "medicine" and use them in a very respectful way. Mushrooms are refered to as "Gods flesh" or "food of the gods" etc. Christianity has blended with traditional beliefs and it is reflected in their stories. Apparently mushroom healers in central america believe that when the blood of Jesus (on the cross) hit the ground sacred mushrooms sprang forth.
One of the sacred cacti is named San Pedro "St. Peter".
Many healers in the amazon consider ayahuasca as their most important plant.This illustrates that people who have been using these plants for millenia have a deep respect for the plants. It is we childish westerners that have turned them into recreational toys.
It is amazing how consistently I hear people denouncing these plants when they have never tried them (or just in small recreational doses), or watched some ill informed aquaintance have a "bad trip" because they were too stupid to "read the drivers manual".

If you do your reading you will find that many people have been helped with psychedelic plants and substances (addictions, compulsions, terminally ill patients and the list goes on).

I have personally experienced very powerful healing and insights through the use of certain plants in my younger years.I am a better person for having gone through those experiences but I wouldn't recommend them to others unless they are of sound mind and spirit. The plants produce VERY powerful effects at high doses and much education/knowledge and preferrably guidance is necessary before using them.I certainly do not consider them drugs, more as teachers or spiritual allies. Since God put all the plants on this planet for our use (Genesis 1:29) I'm sure they are not here by accident. Surely a God that could create the entire universe and all that inhabit it knows whats in the plants It created. I guess the U.S. government is just trying to correct Gods mistakes by making them illegal ;-)
I was raised a self-absorbed athiest. The plants have taught me the opposite.
Another thing the plants are good at is allowing you to objectively examine your beliefs system. Instead of just blindly accepting beleifs/stories/myths pumped into your head you can re-examine them to see if they make sense.

However they are NOT necessary for shamanic work or other forms of healing and consciousness raising.
Dream weaver: You should realize that you may be told and shown things you don't want to hear or see. Better make sure you know how to swim before you jump in the deep end. It doesn't really matter what dose you take if the plants don't think you're ready they won't come to teach you and may just try to scare you off.

[Sky]

I realize this is not a psychedelic site but wanted to add my 2 (or more) cents since the topic has come up.

My reading suggests that the indigineous people who use these plants refer to them as "medicine" and use them in a very respectful way. Mushrooms are refered to as "Gods flesh" or "food of the gods" etc. Christianity has blended with traditional beliefs and it is reflected in their stories. Apparently mushroom healers in central america believe that when the blood of Jesus (on the cross) hit the ground sacred mushrooms sprang forth.
One of the sacred cacti is named San Pedro "St. Peter".
Many healers in the amazon consider ayahuasca as their most important plant.This illustrates that people who have been using these plants for millenia have a deep respect for the plants. It is we childish westerners that have turned them into recreational toys.
It is amazing how consistently I hear people denouncing these plants when they have never tried them (or just in small recreational doses), or watched some ill informed aquaintance have a "bad trip" because they were too stupid to "read the drivers manual".

If you do your reading you will find that many people have been helped with psychedelic plants and substances (addictions, compulsions, terminally ill patients and the list goes on).

I have personally experienced very powerful healing and insights through the use of certain plants in my younger years.I am a better person for having gone through those experiences but I wouldn't recommend them to others unless they are of sound mind and spirit. The plants produce VERY powerful effects at high doses and much education/knowledge and preferrably guidance is necessary before using them.I certainly do not consider them drugs, more as teachers or spiritual allies. Since God put all the plants on this planet for our use (Genesis 1:29) I'm sure they are not here by accident. Surely a God that could create the entire universe and all that inhabit it knows whats in the plants It created. I guess the U.S. government is just trying to correct Gods mistakes by making them illegal ;-)
I was raised a self-absorbed athiest. The plants have taught me the opposite.
Another thing the plants are good at is allowing you to objectively examine your beliefs system. Instead of just blindly accepting beleifs/stories/myths pumped into your head you can re-examine them to see if they make sense.

However they are NOT necessary for shamanic work or other forms of healing and consciousness raising.
Dream weaver: You should realize that you may be told and shown things you don't want to hear or see. Better make sure you know how to swim before you jump in the deep end. It doesn't really matter what dose you take if the plants don't think you're ready they won't come to teach you and may just try to scare you off.
VERY WELL SAID!!

[Unregistered]

I wonder where you did your research? Probably on the internet, were anyone can publish anything annonymously, and find those who will believe them sight unseen........The true Shaman did NOT use drugs to develop their minds or their bodies, they did it all naturally over many years of training.Terry
With the greatest of respect, you're demonstrating limited knowledge of shamanistic tradition.

[Unregistered]

I just wanted to add another 2 cents. I often hear people who use these plants called "druggies" etc. and that is certainly the case with many or perhaps most recreational users. However the people I have met that are serious about the plants are very grounded and lucid "together" people.
Studies done on ayahuasca drinking south americans have shown them to be better integrated than abstainers. It is often remarked how the older ayahuasca healers (who often drink ayahuasca more than once a week for many years/decades) are more youthful and vital than the other seniors. Far from being drugged out they are often the most respected members of their communities.
The best thing to do with this subject is to read all that you can, even when it goes against your beliefs/comfort zone. I've noticed that the only authors that get widely talked about or become best sellers are the ones that denounce plant use or imho alter the origins of their experiences to make them more palatable to the general population. If you've ever read the celestine prophesy it is parallel in almost every way to the ayahuasca scene occurring when that book was published. Would it have become a best-seller if ayahuasca was mentioned and not some imaginary documents?
Again I'm not advocating plant use and I don't think most people would be comfortable with the experiences they produce, just trying to shed some light on a taboo subject.

Anyway love the site!! Will have to thoroughly check it out to expand my awareness :-).

[Simple Guy]

There is an interesting article in the Nov./Dec. 2004 issue of
Sprituality and Health Magazine called "The Vine of the Soul."
It deals with the therapeutic use of native Amazon plants
to help with drug addictions.

[Don]

On a surprising, similar note, the most effective means of preventing recidivism by convicted felons that was ever tested was a combination of LSD and discussion of the experience with licensed therapists afterward. Similarly, there seems to be an increased desire by professional therapists to include MDMA in therapy for those patients who are totally unable to access their emotions.

Of course, LSD still remains illegal and MDMA, often called "Ecstasy," has become illegal, although there is limited legal testing by a few doctors with selected patients.

Psychoactive/entheogenic substances have been used for tens of thousands of years for spiritual development and mental guidance. They have also been used for pleasure. And they have also been abused. The question, of course, is where to draw the line? A main reason that the U.S. has a higher percentage of people in prison than any other country in the world is because so many are there not for crimes against others, but for simply possessing drugs for personal use. This costs U.S. taxpayers billions every year.

[Unregistered]

I just wanted to add another 2 cents. I often hear people who use these plants called "druggies" etc. and that is certainly the case with many or perhaps most recreational users.
I find the idea of lumping recreational users into one group about which you do not approve to be both laughably ignorant and socially appaling in terms of the current international climate. Feel shame for shame.

The reality is that hundreds of millions of your fellow human beings use whatever substances they deem appropriate for whatever purpose they and they lone see fit without any detrimental effect.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered]I find the idea of lumping recreational users into one group about which you do not approve to be both laughably ignorant and socially appaling in terms of the current international climate. Feel shame for shame.

Have you read the whole thread? Do you understand what this site is about? I did not say that I have a problem with people using drugs recreationally.
Alot of the people here are trying to make positive changes or overcome obstacles in their life (perhaps including getting off the drugs they use recreationally ;-)). Someone was dismissing these plants as recreational toys, I pointed out that they can used (and have been used for millenia) as spiritual/theraputic allies/tools.

[alistair]

terence mckenna and his brother did a lot of ethnobiological research(and vomiting) in the early seventies in the rain forests of south america and as a result have a lot to say about shamanism,society,ethogens,computers,etc.y`know,li fe in general.
if you go to www.hemporor.net and click the audio archives you will find recordings of terence discussing all of this and more,with the greatest of reverence,articulation and humour.
there is so much disagreement about shamans and thier tools yet we are all shamans,on occasion,especially when we seek answers with the sense of wonder that matches the simple miracle that occurs around us every day.
all of what we do when we talk,drum,dance or in any way communicate is set up rhythms that resonate with those of like frequency.the frequency and the knowledge of how to manipulate it is the shaman`s greatest tool.
cheers,alistair.
www.tools4change.ca

[Dandelion]

I read your posts. I think you are trying to manipulate yourselves (potentially others) too much. There is a simpler Truth to what your're seeking (to feel and bathe in) that can't be manipulated: LOVE

[Don]

Hi, Dandelion.

What is your definition of love, and why do you think it can't be manipulated?

[teadaze]

spot the hippie!

[Don]

Is that a command? Should I use ink or paint?

[teadaze]

>Is that a command? Should I use ink or paint?

Surprise me!

[Merlin]

>>spot the hippie!

>Should I use ink or paint?

Chicken pox ;)

[Henry123]

(How can I say this??? hyymmmm???)

There are some differences on how Western society tend to view ethnogens differently than how traditional tribal societies view them. I the case of tribal societies who uses them (eg. Shipibo, Jivaro etc) ethnogens are held with the highest respect and regards. In most part they are not looked as some recreational drug to get a "kick out of" (for lack of a better word). Its view as a living spirit and is not to be abused. They are not often useds alone but accompany by rituals, chants or icaros etc. (Interesting note. I believe there has been some research in Vancouver Canada that has shown that certain chants stimulates different areas of the brain.) They have indeed been used for thousands of years.

[With all respect in the case of Terrence McKenna he doesnt have a good reputation among academics. He's more of a New Age promoter than anything else.]

[Sky]

Cracks me up how often this old thread gets dredged up..

Henry123, your post is well said and I couldn't agree more.

SOME cultures use psychedelics and many don't. It's almost like people focus on the ones who use "drugs" much like a teenage boy giggles when they see a pretty woman in a bikini.... there is soooooooooo much more to the woman than her cleavage..

[Don]

Sky, what cultures don't use "drugs?" I would say that the vast majority use some form of mind-altering substances.

[teadaze]

>Sky, what cultures don't use "drugs?" I would say that the vast majority use some form of mind-altering substances

Yes indeed. An important part of society whether we morally agree or not...

[Sky]

Sky, what cultures don't use "drugs?" I would say that the vast majority use some form of mind-altering substances.

I'm speaking for shamanic work...

[lion1]

MMM
Sky you are true in your opinion.

To journey into the other existances does not require drugs.But what is love but a drug?
one must first love yourself and that of what is around you.
On first glimpses into the unknown it becomes a drug,we want to experience more of it so it in turn becomes an addiction.the more experience leads to the more understanding.the more understanding leads to more knowledge.The more knowlwedge leads to more power .Many make the mistake of claiming to have more power than others.This power trip can be the downfall of many a truthseeker,but overcome the feeling of been powerful then the essence of clarity starts to engulf the power and utilise both power and knowledge to become truth of what is and what was and what will.then one surrenders all fears and lives for the present wonders about to unfurl in ones surrounding lifetime..each day passes as an enjoyment of existing in all motions and space,shapes and sounds.

[Henry123]

Sky, what cultures don't use "drugs?" I would say that the vast majority use some form of mind-altering substances.
"the VAST MAJORITY use some form of mind..."

This is a claim too Don. I could just as well ask you to back up your claim using your own critieria. I could either just brush it off and walk away or start something up with it.
I'm not so uptight that I cant just walk away and let things slide.

[Don]

As I wrote elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing and able to support any statement I post.

Name any culture. Name up to five at a time. I'll do my best to find out the drugs that are popularly used in that culture.

[Henry123]

As I wrote elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing and able to support any statement I post.

Name any culture. Name up to five at a time. I'll do my best to find out the drugs that are popularly used in that culture.

Now should I ask you to back the claim or should I move on?
Should we not try to find common things that BOTH of can agree on. Some sort of Conflict Resolution?

[Don]

Henry, I challenged you to support what you posted. You've refused.

You challenged me to support what I posted. I said I'm perfectly willing and able to do so.

I think there's a big difference there, don't you?

So what can we do in the future? I think the same thing anyone can do in forums. If anyone wishes to make a statement, be prepared to support it.

[Henry123]

Henry, I challenged you to support what you posted. You've refused.

You challenged me to support what I posted. I said I'm perfectly willing and able to do so.

I think there's a big difference there, don't you?

So what can we do in the future? I think the same thing anyone can do in forums. If anyone wishes to make a statement, be prepared to support it.
Stating that your willing to support your post is different that actually doing so. I havnt seen any of it .

[Henry123]

Henry, I challenged you to support what you posted. You've refused.


I gave you Mark Cunningham as a reference. Specificially I did directed the source to the "Newton vs. Einstein" tapes.

[Henry123]

Oh never mind. Forget what I wrote.

Have yourself a good weekend Don!

[Poodle]

R U just having a bad day? Let it go! Be wise. Choose your battles carefully and make sure you will win them. Have a great weekend! Hugs, Pood

[Don]

Stating that your willing to support your post is different that actually doing so. I havnt seen any of it .


That's true.
So all you have to do is name a country or culture and I find out what drugs they use.

[Connie]

Interesting discussion! Even if "old." :)

Last month I met a couple who were advocating taking some kind of elaborate designer drugs for spiritual enlightenment purposes...he was relaying some of his experiences. It's not for me. Doesn't Bandler say that any chemical reaction the body has ever produced can be recreated through hypnosis? I was attempting to tell him he can have the same experience that he wants without the narcotics. He didn't like that idea. He wants his drugs. He didn't seem to be "all there" mentally, which is one of my aversions to drugs, I like my mind the way it currently functions!

He was telling another friend of mine to "do it," and that friend probably will and/or did already. I told him: "don't do it." Personally, there's enough to keep me busy on the "spiritual growth" path with hypnosis and meditation and shaktipat and other modalities I'm learning. I also am interested in learning more about Shamanism, and just bought about 4 books on the topic, as well as a wonderful CD with drumming to accompany any "journeys."

[Apsinthion]

Connie~ do you know which 'designer drug' it was, specifically? I know all those numbers and letters can get confusing, though. I'm interested because in my 'exploratory years' I sampled a good number of them myself ... I dissolved some perceptual filters, and probably reinforced a few others!

Even though I had some incredibly therapuetic changes happen with their use, I would never advocate them for another person's use unless they are willing to pay the price of potential permanent damage to their sensory channels. Designer drugs are like the high-octane fuels of the psychedelic world ... now, DMT is another story altogether. IMHO, (that is, in my honest opinion, not to be confused 5-Meo ;) ) everyone should do that at least once! Of course, ayahuasca would be the best vehicle for it's delivery, especially in the presence of sincere shaman who have taken it's sacred use on as their sole purpose.

There are some other shamanic substances I have come to known and respect, namely Salvia Divinorum (diviner's sage) and nitrous oxide (don't laugh). About once a year I will 'touch base' with the alternate realities these provide a window into, as the contrast will often bring me back with the resources I need to confront issues I didn't even know were issues before I left (of course, this begs the question ... did they exist before I saw them? ;) )

[Connie]

He mentioned it (the drug) but I don't remember. I could find out, if you really care.

A friend of mine spent a month in the Amazon with a Shaman and "did" the ayahuasca thing, I believe. His mind seems to have come out OK on the other end.

A person can do as they wish! I'm just not a proponent of "monkeying" with my own mind--in those ways. I'm improving myself at a very pleasing rate with hypnosis, thank you very much, au naturel.

[Apsinthion]

Well, if you run into them again, I'd like to know just so I'm aware of what the latest craze is, but no need to go out of your way.

Yes ... more 'light' doesn't necessarily make the film develop any faster, in fact, it can ruin the whole thing.

[Merlin]

Why bother?
when one can design only the particular effects desired with hypnosis?
and instantly repeatably.
not to mention the $ savings.

[Poodle]

are some of the wonderful people that used to post here like Sky.

Pood :( (sniff, sniff)

[Connie]

... more 'light' doesn't necessarily make the film develop any faster, in fact, it can ruin the whole thing.

I like this line! :) I find I can "do" things and I am perfectly content not knowing how I do them. Woo woo things.