Am I being too self righteous?

[shamanbob]

The 24 hour museum is having a promotional event (http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART41112.html)

Is it just me, or is this just a "touch disrespectful"? :eek:

[Terry (existing)]

Not much good having a museum if nobody visits is it? Personally, I don;t believe in such stuff, but if it brings in more customers, and nobody is forced to accept the premise, or even go to the museum, I see nothing to object to. I won't go of course, but feel free to replace me there:) This has given me an idea however. Hmmmm, phsychic antique detectives anybody?

[shamanbob]

"Dictatorial" might be a bit of an overstated reaction to my post, but if you'd like to compare what I wrote to Hitler, be my guest.

There are quite a few of us that do use past life regression therapy as a means and method for assisting people in moving through their issues. I've personally seen many people deal with some pretty deep emotional issues and whether it is actually a reality, their past life experience, or merely a metaphor for what they're dealing with is really a secondary issue.

What is primary, from the therapists point of view, is what the client is working through and ultimately, the client's ability to move past his or her issue.

There are many people who have abreactions and require support beyond the regression and wonder if the subjects will get this.

Bob

[Poodle]

You could always read Sylvia Browne's book: Past Lives-Future Healings.
When it comes to PLR, LBL, and FLP, one will always get a lot of people that say "nay". I have a very good friend that is writing a book on one of her past lives and has documented the book with FACT. Dr. Brian Weiss does very interesting progressions. Maybe it all comes down to what works, huh? We don't all march to the same drummer. Pood

[Connie]

The 24 hour museum is having a promotional event (http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART41112.html)

Is it just me, or is this just a "touch disrespectful"? :eek:

That event sounds like FUN to me! I'd go, and I'd volunteer. :)

[Connie]

phsychic antique detectives anybody?

That reminds me of an ad I saw on ebay. They were selling a "haunted antique doll." I did a search and found that dozens and dozens were for sale. Some did look pretty creepy. :)

[shamanbob]

You could always read Sylvia Browne's book: Past Lives-Future Healings.
When it comes to PLR, LBL, and FLP, one will always get a lot of people that say "nay". I have a very good friend that is writing a book on one of her past lives and has documented the book with FACT. Dr. Brian Weiss does very interesting progressions. Maybe it all comes down to what works, huh? We don't all march to the same drummer. Pood

And it is difficult to prove that there is actually we actually do reincarnate, go to heaven or hell, or even have any consciousness beyond this current state of affairs. I think you are right on, whatever works and we do not all march to the same drummer.

That reminds me of an ad I saw on ebay. They were selling a "haunted antique doll." I did a search and found that dozens and dozens were for sale. Some did look pretty creepy. :)

Something to put on my holiday wish list. :)

[Terry (existing)]

Interesting that you should react so quickly and so violently, to a word in my heading, and ignore the rest of my comments. I must have hit a sore point though this was not my intent. Wonder what sort of reply you would have got had you written to the museum instead of us?

[shamanbob]

Interesting that you should react so quickly and so violently, to a word in my heading, and ignore the rest of my comments. I must have hit a sore point though this was not my intent. Wonder what sort of reply you would have got had you written to the museum instead of us?

All right Terry, I'll bite.

What was your purpose in writing the title Self riteous or Dictatorial? (http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?p=36213#post36213)

Over reaction?

hmm, let me see. I wrote in my first post,

The 24 hour museum is having a promotional event (http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART41112.html)

Is it just me, or is this just a "touch disrespectful"? :eek:

I'm not sure, but I don't see anything here that deserves a post with the title "Self riteous or Dictatorial", being that I just asked a question about what other people thought.

(BTW, I also addressed your post as well, might want to reread it)

As far as the museum goes, apparently my post actually gave them some really nice publicity. I'm sure they appreciate the support that they are getting from you, poodle and connie. If I wrote them and they disagreed, more than likely they would ignore it.

So, perhaps I'm mistaken about your intentions. Perhaps its my reactiveness. But I am interested in the purpose of your provacative language.

[Terry (existing)]

Well Bob, if you saw my post as provocative, so be it. I accept reponsibility for what I wrote, but not for your reaction, for which you are responsible, and for which you must take such action as seems fit for you to take. If I were in your place, and was annoyed at comments you made to me, I would put you on my ignore list, as one I had no desire to communicate with. I would certainly not be complaining about it for the next several days, since I leave pouting to children... Please don;t bother to communicate with me again unless you are able to reply to all of my points, rather than cry over one word you don;t like, but which more and more seems to fit....

[shamanbob]

Well I let you have the last word on this.

Now back to my concerns about a public display of past life regression.

I just finished the APU Stage Hypnotism class and can demonstrate my concerns with this quote from Ormand McGill's book:

"The American Medical Association has gone on record as accrediting hypnosis as a useful therapeutic tool, and in general has opposed its use in/as entertainment.
It is natural that the professional stage hypnotist should not be pleased to have his show curtailed in this manner. Still the AMA does have a point when they stress that the practice of promiscuously hypnotising on the stage does not provide a means of screening as to who should be hypnotised and who not.
...but there does occur an occasional subject in which hypnosis does bring forth mental abnormalties. Such abnormalties, of course are innate to respective personality of the individual and are not a product of the hypnosis, but the hypnotic condition does tend to aggravate them in some instances and when such occurs must be dealt with correctly and not played upon as "funny" by the psychologically untrained showman." (McGill, Ormand, "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism, 1996, p.558)

My apologies for such a long quote.

Now, moving into a PLR, it is not only a demonstration of the hypnotic state for entertainment purposes, but may also alter the psychological ecology of a subject, which can cause difficulty for the subject long after the initial experience. Ecological factors, it seems to me, can cause great discomfort and may require more support than what the normal stage show format usually provide. (I notice in the ad for the museum in question that the hypnotist is actually a psychic who may or may not understand the greater ramifications of this work.)

I am no expert, by a long shot, in NLP, but I do notice that the techniques used include a respect and make adjustments to the subject's ecology. (ie, future-pacing a client as a means to check for stress that changes may have caused as one example).

So, in a nutshell, my concern here would be: 1) does the hypnotist have adequate knowledge to screen out subjects with what Ormand McGill refers to as "mental abnormalities"?; 2) Is there adequate support for the subject's changing psychological ecology?; 3) Is due respect given to the field, or is this another unfortunate "freak show".

I would love anyone's thoughts on this topic.

[Don]

Shaman Bob,

I realize that is what Ormand wrote, and it is the "gospel" of what many hypnotists preach. However, that is not exactly what the AMA said about hypnosis, and I would encourage people to seek their actual writing on the subject.

As with any skill and profession, the "real work" is guarded, and non-members of the group need to jump through hoops to learn the secrets. In medicine, this involves actual work spending days without sleep while being an intern following education. Hypnosis does not have this feature, and the truth is, anyone can hang out a shingle claiming to be a hypnotist with no real training.

I can understand Ormand's description of being aware that "mental abnormalities" may occur when a person is hypnotized. Unfortunately, he doesn't say what those "mental abnormalities" are and doubly unfortunate is the fact that he is no longer with us to clarify what he means. My guess is that he is using that term to describe an abreaction.

Any hypnotist should know how to deal with abreactions. If they don't they should go back to school and be rightly embarrassed for their lack of training. If I am giving a public demonstration and someone abreacts (in my experience it is far more likely to occur during a class than during a demonstration), it can be dealt with in seconds. Period. Challenge appears and it is efficiently and ethically resolved.

However, you have changed this to something you say that PLR might "altar the psychological ecology of a subject." That's true, but look, just about everything alters the psychological ecology of a subject. If you shout, "Hey stupid," or "Hey fatso," or "That's stupid" to someone, it might alter the psychological ecology of a "subject" (are they experiments for you?). If you say, "John, what are you doing this weekend?" and he says "nothing," and you say "Great! You can come over and help me move." You've altered his psychological ecology.

People do that all the time. The question is not whether it is done, but whether it is ethical. If you don't think of yourself as being an ethical person, or if someone else doesn't think of themseves as being ethical, I would respectfully suggest leaving hypnosis, PLR, and hypnotherapy alone.

Finally, some stage hypnotists present a fun show where actors and audience have a wonderful time. Others present a freak show. However, if you're going to denounce the freak show, I would suggest beginning with Maury, Stern, Jerry, O'Reilly, Hannity, and all of the other freak shows that are on TV 5 days a week.

[shamanbob]

Hi Don,



Really thoughtful reply and lots of good food for thought. I have a couple of questions for clarification in my mind.

1) Ecology. Your point is well taken. Our interactions with our world certainly alter our ecology (meaning psychological ecology). But aren't there differences of impact between say, our conversation and the alterations that take place and by digging up past traumatic events?

It seems to me that the first would have a minimal impact on my ego-identity, while the second would impact a whole host of behaviors and coping mechanism that I might employ from the beliefs that resulted in a past traumatic event. This is however my thinking and am curious to read yours.

2) Ethics. Ethics seem to me to be fairly subjective and individual, but at the same time, there are also some codified ethics through many professions. But, because I may think of myself as ethical, it doesn't preclude me from doing harm anyway.

My questions here is: What would you consider to be good general ethical guidelines for a hypnotherapist and a performing stage hypnotist? What are the parameters that insure that "no harm is done"? And as a side question, what, in your mind, is the proper training and experience for someone in these fields?

3) The Freak Show. Your points are fair enough and our political process has also become quite a freak show. However, we are talking about a professional discipline. I honestly don't think that all Stage Hypnosis should be banned, but I'm wondering what you might consider to be crossing the line?

Again Don, thanks for your reply.

[Don]

1) Not in my experience. If someone you care about calls you an "ignorant fat slug" that's going to have far more effect than learning that an uncle laughed at you when you were a kid.

2) You're correct. But people do harm to others all the time. We simple do the best we can to cause no harm. As to guidelines, both the American Board of Hypnotherapy and the National Guild of Hypnotists have good versions. Proper training, IMO, includes wide reading, lots of practice in classes. More important that quantifying such training is qualifying it through results: For hypnotherapy, can you devise an induction and suggestions for any client? Can you refer clients outside your area of expertise to others? Do you know local laws and have business training? For stage hypnosis, you need to know stage presence, a bit of acting, how to choose actors, how to get them to respond, and most importantly, how to entertain.

3) I'm a capitalist. Let the market determine if what you do is okay or not. If people come out of your shows angry and upset, you're not going to last for long in the business.

[shamanbob]

1) Not in my experience. If someone you care about calls you an "ignorant fat slug" that's going to have far more effect than learning that an uncle laughed at you when you were a kid.

I think that of course is a matter of perspective (ie. I embrace my ignorance, fatness and slug like behavior), but call me a Yankees fan, now that's traumatic.:)

Seriously though:

The reaction to "your uncle laughing at you as a kid" might not problematic, but reliving memories of getting beaten up by him or molested would be. Again, it's all a matter of degrees and personal perspective. (IMHO).

My concerns with PLR as a performance subject comes from the above perspective as the results and abreactions to it can be quite volitile and unpredictable and often deal with some pretty personal material in which the personal outcomes for people engaging in this as a subject are often unpredictable.

Many in the West view PLR here in the west as a parlor trick, but I've noticed how deeply personal some of these experiences are and how uncomfortable they can be.

But your prespective is sound and am glad you shared it with me. I gives me an opportunity to reexamine my position.


2) You're correct. But people do harm to others all the time. We simple do the best we can to cause no harm. As to guidelines, both the American Board of Hypnotherapy and the National Guild of Hypnotists have good versions. Proper training, IMO, includes wide reading, lots of practice in classes. More important that quantifying such training is qualifying it through results: For hypnotherapy, can you devise an induction and suggestions for any client? Can you refer clients outside your area of expertise to others? Do you know local laws and have business training? For stage hypnosis, you need to know stage presence, a bit of acting, how to choose actors, how to get them to respond, and most importantly, how to entertain.

Gracias for your thoughts here.

3) I'm a capitalist. Let the market determine if what you do is okay or not. If people come out of your shows angry and upset, you're not going to last for long in the business.

Good point.

Hey, after rereading your last post on this thread, I went back to check out what you were saying regarding Ormand McGill's statements on "Psychological Abnormalities."

He does not define what they are, but he talks about two things that lead me to the conclusion that he is referring to something else other than abreaction.

He discusses the importance "having enough knowledge of psychology" to recognize the symptoms and screen them out, and, this statement,

"Abnormal subjects are often very responsive to hypnosis and enlist much laughter from the audience in extreme things they do, so there is a temptation on the part of the performer to use them in many of his demonstrations. This is exactly what should not be done." (p.559)

So, what I'll do, for the sake of the thread and anyone reading it, is to do a little research on what these Psychological Abnormalities might be (when I have a bit more time.) and post them.

Again Don, thanks for your great reply. It is an enjoyable exchange.

Bob

[Poodle]

How did I get drug into this as a "believer". I am sure the title of my post was "Dunno". I cannot say for sure. I have done regression and progression. I have not had any severe abreactions to date but I'm totally equipped to handle any instantly. I mis-state myself often enough without someone doing it for me. :mad:

As for my personal belief: I'm with Bandler: "I'm not really sure I believe in this one yet." :confused: Pood

[shamanbob]

I wasn't sure what you were referring to until I reread some of the posts.

I think you might be referring to a statement I made in response to a question about "what would the museum do if they saw your comments?", directed to me.

My comment wasn't intended to suggest that you were a "believer", but more of a comment about my perception that you didn't really see a problem with the museum's activity one way or another and Connie's post saying "it looked like fun."

My apologies for the misconceptions.

[shamanbob]

Sorry for the double post, I'm not sure how to edit posts that have already been published.

If there is another instance of something I posted that misstated your position on this, let me know.

[Connie]

Connie's post saying "it looked like fun."

I'm their target audience! They say specificially that it's tailored for people who are into "ghost hunting" and the like. That's me. :)

Not to change your topic, but here's a photograph of a "ghost" I took yesterday:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6486/orbonheadcloser2102806zf6.jpg

[shamanbob]

I thought I saw something in the guys hair, is that where it is?

[Poodle]

Back in the 80's here the Holistic Fair was a BIG deal. There was a professor who was also a hypnotist and supposedly a very good one. One could take a little rug and lie down on the floor and he would do PLR for 50-100 people. Never an abreaction! Now another friend of mine was at Macchu Picchu and they had a local witch/hypnotist there. She did PLR and put my friend on a "power animal" which was some kind of a large cat - jag, cheetah or whatever and it scared him to death as he knew for sure he was going to die riding that cat.

A little stage show can be great for business. Just produce every aspect of deep trance phenomena. I wouldn't even use the words "stage show" -- maybe something like: REAL HYPNOSIS IN ACTION - Come witness for yourself the amazing and total power of the subconscious mind. You will definitely be in a state of awe when you see for yourself what YOUR subconscious mind is capable of doing. Now just imagine, if I can do this with complete strangers on a stage what miracles can we accomplish together in private sessions. I got a "feeling" the phone would really start ringing. Pood

[shamanbob]

That sounds quite interesting. Is there any online info. that can be linked too?

I think this is why I started the thread with the title "Am I being self-righteous?", it was a sincere question and my concern wasn't so much that PLR was being used in a demonstration, but rather my feeling that the particular case that I was referring to had more to do with a person billed as a psychic rather than someone who obviously knew what they were doing.

Admittedly, the psychic may or may not now how to handle things like abreactions or Psychological Abnormalities (exacerbating them).

(An abreaction really isn't an abnormality and can be quite a cathartic experience for many people, it is a matter of handling it respectfully. This is, of course, difficult to do on stage.)

I've spent some time in Peru. A facinating place for all kinds of "shamanic endeavors". Finding power animals, for me, is a powerful experience. When I was there, I got in touch with an anachonda which later became quite an experience full of both great wonder and touched some great fright.

The shaman I was working with told me that the anachonda assisted people in getting in touch with their kundalini and that energy's purpose at that time was to clear up the energy centers and create a pathway to a more spiritual life.

Another person in my group saw a jaguar. I do not know too much about what jaguar energy represents, but I have heard that it is a rare experience, an honor really as he/she only visits people who have great shamanic talent.

If that's the case, your friend is probably quite a special individual.

It was energizing, exciting, as well as frightening.

[shamanbob]

Please don't pay attention to the last line. Still learning the interface here. :confused:

[Poodle]

I'm lost. I'm great at hypnosis but I haven't got around to reading minds through pc screens yet. Information on what?

The prof that did a room full of PLR? The person again will be here around 6:30pm RMT.
The whatever in Peru? - Should be here around 6:30pm RMT so he could tell the story himself.
The non-stage show - stage show?

Pood

[shamanbob]

Sorry,

The prof that did the plr.

[Poodle]

I asked Richard when he came in tonite. He said they all just were on the floor on their rugs and he did a relaxation induction and apparently everyone did their own thing with a little help from the Dr. I can PM you his name and phone number if you wish. I believe Richard said that he was a Roman foot soldier and also a caveman being afraid of the forest. I believe he is pretty old now but apparently still working out of his home. Do we ever quit what we love??

The "power animal" was a Puma and was carrying Richard to his death.

You may also want to contact Mishka Productions in Scottsdale, AZ. They have a big event every Nov. Lots of times Dr. Brian Weiss comes. I'm sure they were sold out months ago but maybe they could put you in contact with him. This is getting to be one very weird whacked out thread!

'nite all,
Pood's beddie time

[shamanbob]

I asked Richard when he came in tonite. He said they all just were on the floor on their rugs and he did a relaxation induction and apparently everyone did their own thing with a little help from the Dr. I can PM you his name and phone number if you wish. I believe Richard said that he was a Roman foot soldier and also a caveman being afraid of the forest. I believe he is pretty old now but apparently still working out of his home. Do we ever quit what we love??

I would really appreciate that information and would enjoy talking with him if he wouldn't mind me contacting him.

Caveman afraid of the forest? Man, that must've been a difficult existance. Lots to learn from that one. Kind of like a hypnotherapist being afraid of the mind.;)

It's great to know and hear about the work people are doing and passionate about which is why I think these forums are so valueable.

The "power animal" was a Puma and was carrying Richard to his death.

I would love to hear his experience on this as well, maybe he'd write a little about it somewhere on this forum.

You may also want to contact Mishka Productions in Scottsdale, AZ. They have a big event every Nov. Lots of times Dr. Brian Weiss comes. I'm sure they were sold out months ago but maybe they could put you in contact with him. This is getting to be one very weird whacked out thread!

Thanks, I'll contact them and give them a little publicity on my blog.

Speaking of my blog, I'm looking for some people who would be interested in blogging on it. I started it with the thought that it would be informational and give people an opportunity to talk about PLR and transpersonal hypnotherapy rather than it be predominantly about my practice or other commercial enterprises, but would also like to highlight the work that others are doing in this area, including practices, books, events or other projects. (The blog is a week old)

If anyone would be interested in being a blogger, please PM me.

Weird and whacked out. Love it. :D Thanks for getting weird and whacked out with me.

Bob