Autism

[Sky]

Back from Vacation and ready to get back to work. We had an INCREDIBLE time! Now I need a vacation from my vacation… :)



Question... Any of the professionals here ever work with Autistic children doing hypnotherapy?

I have had a request from a mother to work with her 10 y/o son to help control the sing-songy cadence to his speech. He seems to be able to control it when he communicated with his younger siblings, but not with others... he is a fairly able functioning Autistic.. (forgive me if I have/am used/using the wrong terms here.. I’m trying to explain that his level of Autism is not sever to the point he is unable to function, but can and dose interact fairly well with others.)



Any pointers would be very appreciated….



Thank you

Sky

[Merlin]

For some reason the child has decided that "Autism" is a good behaviour.
Some here would say just change the belief.
I would suggest you reframe the events of that decision so that a new decision can be made.

[Annie]

Merlin said : " For some reason the child has decided that "Autism" is a good behaviour.
Some here would say just change the belief.
I would suggest you reframe the events of that decision so that a new decision can be made. "

Yes, with the time-frame of those events most commonly during the child's first 3 years of life.

And while some would say this is not directly-related,
you can apply this to other decisions as well, like :
"Prenatal" decisions the child made in the womb, or
decisions many in advanced-ages make, a behavior named "Alzheimers".


Annie

[Terry]

Hi Sky, welcome back. Never had the opportunity to work with an autistic child, but good friends of ours had one, and my daughters used to babysit her. She was much worse than you describe, and did a lot of singing also, but grew out of it in her teens when she was sent to high school. Today she is a functioning member of society, and very brilliant in some areas, though not socially.....I strongly suspect that your client has decided that the voice is getting attention, but this will change as he or she grows into the teen years. Treatment in my opinion, should be limited to relaxation, and visualization of improved conditions including social interactions which are most important in these cases. One thing they found out that is interesting, if a child is having an episode, putting your arms around them has a calming effect as well as restraining. It might be interesting to use that knowledge during the treatment to see if simulated restraint will give good results. Hope this little insight will be of help, Terry

[skip]

Merlin and or Annie,

I havent worked with autism. (Unless you include teenagers.)

Nor have I heard about successful intervention via hypnosis with autism.

What sort of behavioral change results did you achieve, and with what percentage of clients?

How many cases have you treated, how severe was the autistic behavior, how did you hypnotize the very severely autistic, and did it produce results, such that autism is no longer diagnosed?

If you havent personally worked with autism, where did you hear of this protocol being successful with autism, so I can learn more about it?

thanks,

skip

[The Mentalist]

This is very interesting, you can actually cure/almost cure autism with hypnosis?

[Merlin]

Skip,

As a broad generalization, Autism is an extreme introverted behaviour. It is generally characterized (diagnosed) based on a lack of desire to communicate with others, or develop language skills which is evidenced at a very young age.

As Sky put it in this case
>He seems to be able to control it when he communicated with his younger siblings, but not with others...

A lack of desire or ability to communicate clearly with others (implied, but not specifically spelled out as such in the DSM IV).

They are typicaly in a *very* deep trance, often brought about by a trauma prior to year one (even in the womb).

The key to working with these children is to *patiently* enter into their world (match/mirror/pace) and observe their communication modalities. This may be a single object or song. Be a part of their world with them.

Specific hypnosis is often not needed because they are already in their own trance world. Once the deep rapport is developed, you can talk to their inner mind directly as they focus on their preferred fixation object.

[skip]

Thanks Merlin,

As a general understanding of what is going on and a bit of a "how to", I appreciate your response.

It doesnt answer my question, tho.

Is this based on your, and or Annie's (in reference to her response) actual experience, with autism, and if so, how deeply autistic (self absorbed) were the clients, and what was your rate of success. Ie complete remission of symptoms, partial remission, no result.

If not personal practical experience, no harm no foul, where then did you learn of this and is it theory or practical advice with a track record?

I know Sky, and I know she will do a good job, and the advice you offered seems applicable. But as you know there is a difference between advice from a practical experience point of view and a theoretical point of view.

skip

[skip]

Dear Mentalist,

If severe autism has been successfully treated, to what would be considered complete remission, it would be news indeed. I am trying to determine if this is actually the case or if the advice offered is that of a more general nature.

The advice seems sound and practical, but it is as yet unknown if it is theory, practical experience with one client, or many clients, practical experience with non autistic clients with the thought that it would also be applicable to autistic clients.

[Sky]

Thank you all for some wonderful insights.. I'm looking forward to learning more.. Please keep it coming.. :D

(p.s. Thanks for the vote of confidence, Skip!)

[Don]

Hi, Skip.

As I recall, the book "My Voice Will Go With You" gives some examples. Erickson seemed to handle autism cases and may have introduced the method described by Merlin.

Unfortunately, there are far too few Erickson's today...

[Annie]

Hi Sky,

Everything Merlin shared with you about this "autism"-stigma, and how to communicate with these children, is true.

I know that from my own work with 20 such children : altho these children, harmed initially by mostly their moms, continued deteriorating as a result of additional psychiatric/school- harms inflicted on them; and thus,
they reserved their trust in *deeply rapporting* for a very few individuals who they sensed will not cause them further harm.

For 2 'other' severely-limiting health-conditions, I have received heart-felt Thanks from people I helped, and their families also WA- state as well, plus in 1983 we ended-up in the Seattle news.
so, given that my work is appreciated by people, I thought innocently : " I wonder who else, on the Net, I can inspire to help these people. We can share successes at whatever level now, and help one another create even greater successes. :) " And so, I came and shared ...

[personal attacts deleted]

Increasingly, I am again choosing sharing with emotionally-healthy and benevolent folks in other Net-groups. It's a big world, with many helpful people like Peter Breggin MD/psychiatrist, etc in it.

Sincerely I want to help you help this boy, Sky. You see, there are so few of us willing to *patiently* share our time in *deeply rapporting* with these children/adults. And they need someone who can do just that, and much more. If you don't know how now, you can learn - of that I am sure :)
*Freeing his little soul/mind with Love ... so, encouraged, he can fully express his blossoming person - is what these children communicate needing*. Some carry around in their hands, - and I don't know if this boy is like that, 2 - objects like an airplane, or a doll, or drawings they made weeks ago. After the child has accepted you *deeply rapporting* with him/her, you can keep their attention focused on that object, while you talk with their inner mind, for as Merlin said " they are, already, in a very deep trance to begin with, - so "hypnosis" as such, isn't a consideration.

If you, Sky, have specific questions about how I do it, that I can find adequately-describing words for : I say that because much of this process is difficult to explain Well in words, feel free asking me ...

I have sincerely loved helping all such little children, & adults, whose lives I brightened in a way they enjoyed. I enjoy being in their presence, Sky. May you as well come to enjoy enriching these people's lives :)


Annie

[Merlin]

Skip,

I have worked with many children who exibited behaviour of Autism who were not formally diagnosed and there was significant change in behaviour (not being bacon, they were not 'cured' ;-)
I have worked with 2 diagnosed cases. There was again significant improvement.

I do not know if the diagnosis changed, or even if the parents returned to the system for relabeling.

Side note:
With very young children, I find "Ericksonian" style Metaphors to be most effective.

[skip]

Thanks Merlin, thats what I was wondering about.

I think it makes a great deal of difference to someone asking for advice to know if the advice, even if good and sound, is experience based with actual cases, experienced based with similar, or 'this should work' based.

cheers,

skip

[skip]

Annie,

Thanks for the reply on the number of cases.

It was a simple question, and a simple answer would have sufficed.

I am curious tho. When you say, "I know that from my own work with 20 such children : altho these children, harmed initially by mostly their moms, continued deteriorating as a result of additional psychiatric/school- harms inflicted on them; and thus, they reserved their trust in *deeply rapporting* for a very few individuals who they sensed will not cause them further harm.", are you saying that autism is caused by the mother?

Would this not indicate that autistic children should be protected from their mothers, and placed in some sort of protective custody?

Is there a difinitive cause and effect relationship, or is this a belief of yours?

thanks,

skip

[EC]

Hi Sky,

You have received good answers. I will just caution: Autism may be pathological and it might be psychogenic. That needs validation.

Then, if determined PG, keep in mind that autistic folks are simply dominant from the right brain,the artistic, animalistic side. They DO NOT want to leave there and come into the conscious world. The older they get the less they want to join the hectic world outside, in fact many would fight you to leave them alone in their carefree world. You have a shot with younger children but it takes "intense rapport", like get in the floor, on their level, play their games and focus on "leading them into realizing the beauty of the conscious world"

As you can see, you are going to have to be a good liar !

EC

[Annie]

re EC's comments :

1. this "Left vs. Right"-brained theory is not really applicable, as there are also autistic-children dominantly gifted in "math, logic" etc

2. " They DO NOT want to leave there and come into the conscious world. The older they get the less they want to join the hectic world outside, in fact many would fight you to leave them alone in their carefree world. "

Remaining very aware of "conscious/External" - reality, Yes - they don't want to re-join. They prefer remaining ' permanently tuned-Out '.

3. " focus on "leading them into realizing the beauty of the conscious world"
As you can see, you are going to have to be a good liar ! "

That is why it is so important for their *family, especially Mom : if that's who started it, to become Healed as well*

These children will stay where they are, >inside their protective-bubble, clutching to their objects/songs<, until they can sense assurance that the External-world in which they find themselves is *emotionally-safe* again.

And I've worked with "autistic"-children, who once having learned to speak, hadn't uttered 1 word for over a year.
Yet, I got them to talk with me, beginning with 1-3 word-phrases ... But

as soon as they caught glimpse of Mom coming to pick them up, immediately they self-isolatingly with-drew back into their world. Sure Mom demonstrated outward-signs of affection/nurturing, but remained focused on "her/his" illness. Guess, again ...

so, Sky - obviously, I don't know what the "specifics" of this boy's life are, but if you are sufficiently *Intuitive*, you'll know what needs to be done. So, you may well have 2, or more, Clients to guide their *healing* here ...


Annie

[skip]

Annie,

In an earlier post you said: "I know that from my own work with 20 such children : altho these children, harmed initially by mostly their moms, continued deteriorating as a result of additional psychiatric/school- harms inflicted on them; and thus,..."

I asked you what your basis for this belief was.

You did not reply.

In this post again say: "That is why it is so important for their *family, especially Mom : if that's who started it, to become Healed as well*"

I think unless there is some valid basis for this belief, it is a dangerous and irresponsible one to propagate. The reason it is dangerous and irresponsible, in my opinion, is the devastating result it could have on the mother of an autistic child who might venture here, or be told by someone who takes that belief as valid.

Silence or ignoring a question is not a valid response. And there is no requirement that you convince me, bevause I am not the authority on what is right or not.

Is there anyone who can corraborate your claim?

Is there a study that shows this to be true?

When you make a claim that can have such devastating consequences, I believe, you have an obligation to explain how that claim was arrived at.

thanks,

skip

[Don]

Skip, although I don't have any files in front of me, I think it is clear that one cause of autism can be trauma. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, or mental abuse can result in a child's mind needing to turn inward for protection. So in some case I think that Annie may be correct.

However, that is certainly not the only cause of autism. The child's need to turn inward might be caused by any factor, including ones that have nothing to do with parents, relatives, or actual (as opposed to perceived) trauma or danger.

Therefore, I agree with you. To assume that all autism is caused by others, as Annie seems to do, could be as destructive to individuals and families as the false memory syndrome. While I agree that actual or perceived trauma or danger may be the cause of autism, I have seen nothing to show that it is the major cause of autism. And while I respect Annie's personal experiences, I would also have to say that her sample may be to limited in size and source locations to be generalized to all who suffer autism.

I would also like to say, however, that autism is a disease and is described, I believe, in the DSM IV. As such, hypnotherapists should NOT treat it unless they have received a written referral from a licensed professional. However, hypnotherapists can certain work with children and adults who exhibit behavior that has turned them away from social interaction.

[Simple Guy]

Don,

I believe that the tragic consequences of Bruno Bettelheim's blaming the
parents for their children's autism, illustrates some of what you are
speaking of. Children were removed from their households, parents
stigmatized and harm done. It remains a stain on the career of
Dr. Bettelheim and sheds insight into what is and isn't helpful
to those with autism.

[Merlin]

Don, Skip,

I missed where Annie said *the mother is the cause*, though I did see *most* and *if* used.
It may be in Annie's experience *most* applies to mother, due to Annies limited experience. How would we have a clue unless thousand of cases were checked?

Anyway, It certainly can be any source where the child *feels* insecure, even if the insecurity is from an error. Children have limited resources and their own misunderstanding may result in their 'dis-ease'.

[EC]

Annie,

>>1. this "Left vs. Right"-brained theory is not really applicable, as there are also autistic-children dominantly gifted in "math, logic" etc <<

This a true statement you made Annie, but that in no-way disproves the left vs right theory, in fact IMO, and from my experience, it shows the creativity of Autism, to be able to choose and utilize resources from the left brain while hiding out on the right side! Additionally, this being "gifted" with function from the left brain is a really good indicator that you are probably dealing with a psychogenic based Autism!

EC

[Annie]

Hi Merlin,

Thank you for giving my post your *well-considered* thought.

Forgive me but when I read your "in Annie's *limited* experience", I thought " well, Merlin, in comparison to *you* : every other human bean's going to be Limited 2, considering you're 1700 years young !, lol" .
Anyway,
how many other people joining this thread have said how many actual Autistic-children they have "helped" ? I have actually come in contact with a lot more than the "20" I stated, but I wanted to honestly report how many I have actually helped, at least as far as the School/Family-systems allowed me, to date. I'm sure as time goes on, there will be others as well. For, truely, as
I've said already, "I enjoy interacting with Autistic children".

Let me also, categorically, state : I have never, nor do I now *Advocate* having said children "removed from their families nor Moms, AND placed in protective custody".
And
I find it tragic that not only was this raised in the 1st. place, but that another chose jumping on this bandwagon. Do you care knowing how truely Humiliating such tactics are ?

(In my other thread on *protecting Children's rights*, I was very clear on
speaking to providing *education/classes for Healthy-parenting*, so - you would think, yes !, that says where I stand : "EDUCATION *and* Healing".

That said, when a such a child says to me (as 13 did) "I know mommy doesn't want or love me"; and I ask what gave them that idea, and he/she says : "She told me that I was an accident, and
she wanted a boy/girl instead, (opposite their gender) and she's always telling me to get-away from her !, and ... "

Now, I have approached several moms with such in conversation, AND had them admit to me : "Yeah, that's true, but so what ? He/she isn't the only 1, there's alot more kids in those shoes. And I try to make up for it by buying her/him stuff "

Sometimes, their Issues go further back than Birth; I think Merlin alluded to the "womb" as well.

Now yes, while any Healthily-functioning parent will consider their womb as the *Loving-cradle* it can be; in these situations above, as Merlin also said, these children there have much greater limiting resources : stuck inside Mom until their body has developed sufficiently to survive Post-birth, what are they to do ? - so, no wonder some of them grow increasingly autistic soon after birth.

This is why I told Sky : " if you are sufficiently *intuitive*, you'll know what needs to be done. So, you may well have 2, or more, Clients to guide their *healing* here ... "

Maybe not. Maybe this is 1 of those "simple" cases. For everyone's sake, I hope.

In any case, I chose posting to this thread to "help". May Sky realize that !


Annie

[Merlin]

Hi Annie,

I refer to your limited experience only from the standpoint of statistics.

Very simply, 20 cases is not enough to translate to a large population with reliability.

[Annie]

Hi Merlin,

ok; so - only teachers and/or therapists with "1000's Cases of experience" for any 1 area of concern, are considered "valid" in this Forum ?, and therefore Welcome to contribute ?

Where is that posted ? and

How many of the " Forum Team Leaders " fit this criteria ?

I honestly don't understand this.


Annie

[Simple Guy]

Hi Annie,

I don't believe that anyone is attempting to humiliate you.

The thread is about autism, not you, me, or anyone here. Bettelheim
was one of the leading shapers of "professional" thinking in regards to
autism vis a vis the relationship of the parents to their children with this
condition. Tragic that he comes into the thread? I don't believe so.

[skip]

Merlin,

This is almost pointless, here are both quotes again.

"I know that from my own work with 20 such children : altho these children, harmed initially by mostly their moms, continued deteriorating as a result of additional psychiatric/school- harms inflicted on them; and thus,..."

"That is why it is so important for their *family, especially Mom : if that's who started it, to become Healed as well*"

If "...harmed mostly by their moms..." doesnt mean the MAJORITY of autism cases is caused by the mother, to you, then there is no use in us discussing this.

I have no doubt that there are some cases where trauma was the cause, and it was the result of something the mother did. BUT not most cases are caused by trauma, and even if it is the cause, not most of the trauma is caused by the mother.

Now Annie may know a lot about autism, she has certainly, by her count, treated more than anyone else who is in this discussion. But other people are not completely ignorant, with respect to autism, even if they havent treated clients, and she was asked to back up her opinion with something which she has completely neglected to do.

skip

[Annie]

Hello,

Yesterday, I answered that question in my post, entitled : " Annie Hi Merlin, Thank you for... (http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?postid=1632#post1632) Yesterday, 09:48 PM " when I said :

" when a such a child says to me (as 13 did) "I know mommy doesn't want or love me"; and I ask what gave them that idea, and he/she says : "She told me that I was an accident, and
she wanted a boy/girl instead, (opposite their gender) and she's always telling me to get-away from her !, and ... "

Now, I have approached several moms with such in conversation, AND had them admit to me : "Yeah, that's true, but so what ? He/she isn't the only 1, there's alot more kids in those shoes. And I try to make up for it by buying her/him stuff "

Sometimes, their Issues go further back than Birth; I think Merlin alluded to the "womb" as well.

Now yes, while any Healthily-functioning parent will consider their womb as the *Loving-cradle* it can be; in these situations above, as Merlin also said, these children there have much greater limiting resources : stuck inside Mom until their body has developed sufficiently to survive Post-birth, what are they to do ? - so, no wonder some of them grow increasingly autistic soon after birth. "

That was my response to the question I was asked about how so Moms have admitted, to me, originating a child feeling *insecure* - enough to withdraw from social-interactions, so severely.

~~
Altho, TRUTH be known : there is another *gifted* side to "Autism" that psychiatry plays an active-part in, dis-crediting, (that EC alluded to as well in his comments about "left vs. right").

this *gifted* side to "Autism" I was attempting speaking to, in the New thread I started under "Other topics" when my comp decided to take matters into its own hands, lol - anyway, I would like to give that another GO ! - because
one of the reasons I *so thoroughly enjoy being with children such as these, is ...* :)

For now tho : please Review how I answered this query.


Annie

[skip]

Thanks Annie, for the response, dialog is better than nothing.

And there is no need for me to re-read what you have said, I understood it the first time.

I have no doubt about what people have said to you.

I have no doubt that children are exposed to trauma.

I doubt the causal link, between what you described and autism?

For all we know these traumas you describe are going manifest as cancer instead of autism, if you subscribe to Dr Hammar's theory. Or then might have caused nothing at all.

Annie, I have no doubt that some, as I have stated, autism arises exactly as you have described.

I am sure that you would agree that if someone were deliberately looking for faults in your posts they would most likely find one. If someone were looking for faults in my posts they most likely would find one.

Can you not also agree, that if it is your belief, that trauma of some sort is the cause of all problems, and that if you go into someones treatment, and delve into their past, looking for trauma, trauma you are CERTAIN will be there, you most certainly WILL find it?

EVERYONE has trauma. EVERYONE experiences hurts or sleights. So trauma will be found. Your belief that it MUST be there makes it so that you will percieve it as the cause of something today.

BUT you arent satisfied if you cant find a good trauma to hang it on after they were born.

If you cant find it in their "life", you, KNOWING IT HAS TO BE SO, will go on into the womb until you do find the culprit! If you didnt find it there, would you then insist on going to 'past lives'?

Im sorry Annie, you start out with this fixed belief, and you are forcing everyone into that mold. You have a strong personality Annie. How many times do you suppose that the client, in an effort to please, has given you exactly what you are looking for?

It is a hold over from Freud, and far from everyone subscribes to it.

Here is the crux Annie.

If you want to persist that most autism is caused by the mother, you and I will continue to disagree over this.

If you want to restate that given the 20 cases you have been involved with, the majority of those have been caused by the mother, then I can accept that intellectual honesty.

I probably still wonder how you make the causal relationship, and Ill still wonder if your belief didnt create the 'evidence', but I will applaud you for what you have done, what you have found out, your honesty in refusing the illogical leap, and the successes you have had.

Is that fair or not?

skip

[Annie]

Hello,

*Thanks* to EC for saying today : " I understand it is difficult to truly know each other by the postings we make, and sometimes those postings certainly seem contradictory because they are but a small "snip" of the overall experience and knowledge level of the poster. "

Yes ! I can certainly relate to that : 4 years of having one's person, experience & abilities mis-represented over & over & ... get's really tiring ! Especially when it's over
subjects that I, fundamentally, approach from mostly a *positively beneficial* standpoint.

The ending by the previous poster was : " I probably still wonder how you make the 'causal' relationship, and Ill still wonder if your 'belief' didnt create the 'evidence', but I will applaud you for what you have done, what you have found out, your honesty in refusing the illogical leap, and the successes you have had. Is that fair or not ? "

No, it isn't fair : because in this particular scenario, mostly I approach "Autistic children", like I just said, from a *positively beneficial* standpoint. (and I was going to address alot of this in a seperate thread, but oh well)

The way I interact with people with "challenges"
is on a Continuum, and as for 'autism' ? :
1. True, all/every-1 of us, experiences "hurt/pain" of some sort; that's a given of life. And people choose different decisions as a result. Certainly not every baby who is not wanted/unloved in the womb will grow deformed/dis-ordered in some way, (tho an alarming % does). Most babies are born outwardly-appearing/inwardly-functioning just fine. (I know, having worked in Neonatology).
and
2. I have always believed (as well as raised my daughter out of this belief) that nigh every child is born a *Naturally-gifted genius*. To me that means each person has within them, by virtue of God-granted mind, the potential possibility to learn/gain what they want/desire.
and
3. Therefore, it has been observed that babies (starting life deeply tranced) will naturally, as they learn so quickly, focus intensely their attention on objects, as well as they are very perceptive !
As they grow, they are blessed indeed if 1, or both of their parents, encourage them to *further develop their Inner mind positively*, which I did also. This serves as the foundation upon which Steve & I developed, and are expanding, our school :"play-pretend-imagine-Learn" . Following this recipe, in the spirit of *fun* : is how my daughter graduated college, with honors, at 17. Turning (what many others consider a "difficult hard-ship" into *fun*, it was an *easy Game*, primarily, for her instead.
AND
she did so in the same mental-state what many in psychiatry would label "autistic", in other words *intensely tranced, and self-absorbed in activities of her own choosing*. Now, did that freak me out ? Heck no : I ENCOURAGED it ! so, is "autism", by definition, "sick" ? NO !, most definitely not.
Truth be told, I've chosen spending vast time-frames in the same state. It can be most beneficial, depending on how it is used, and for what purpose. Yet, both of us can exit the state as well when we want, and focus our attention outwardly as well.
and
4. so, when I interact with "Labeled-'autistic' " children, I feel right at home. They can have some of the broadest, most wonderful, Imaginations anywhere !
and
5. only, when the child is >afraid< to exit the "autistic" trance, and remains there (which is very easy to perceive, in my opinion) - will I investigate as to what's gone "wrong"... Yes, 13 of these children as I said, were severely enough traumatized : emotionally, physically, incestually, that they felt no other choice but to retreat into that world, and cease trusting Interacting again.
Unless -
like I also said, they can perceive who will *not* 'harm' them further. Please remember that in that trance, they remain very perceptive !

So, in closing for now : Being oriented as I am positively, it wouldn't occur to me to "Belief there was a Causal-relationship, which in turn would then produce the Evidence that mom Caused ..." as
I, or my position, is being falsely mis-represented.

Just the opposite : I approach these children, *Happy that they have retained their *natural autistic skills*; and
only when the child indicates " I am hurting enough to not trust coming back out; what can I do ? " will I commence *Interventions*.

Does that explain it better ?


Annie

[skip]

Annie,

You said: "No, it isn't fair : because in this particular scenario, mostly I approach "Autistic children", like I just said, from a *positively beneficial* standpoint. (and I was going to address alot of this in a seperate thread, but oh well)"

Later in your post you said: "So, in closing for now : Being oriented as I am positively, it wouldn't occur to me to "Belief there was a Causal-relationship, which in turn would then produce the Evidence that mom Caused ..." as I, or my position, is being falsely mis-represented."

Well!

I dont know what to believe.

You did say autism is caused by trauma, mostly by the mother. And you did say they must go back and fix that trauma in order to 'heal'.

How many times do you suppose over the last year you have offered the advice "regress to cause" as the first choice method of hypnotic intervention?

And I am sure you know that "regress to cause" presupposes the belief that 1:There is cause, and 2:That the cause must be eliminated, in order to heal.

You have argued this posiition and defended others who argue this position.

So please dont try to tell me you lack a certain belief mindset.

You arent being misrepresented you are being accurately represented if we can believe what you say, you just dont seem to like it.

Dialogue, about beliefs, ideas, experience, would have been nice.

skip

[Annie]

Skip : In an earlier post you said: "I know that from my own work with 20 such children : altho these children, harmed initially by mostly their moms, continued deteriorating as a result of additional psychiatric/school- harms inflicted on them; and thus,..."

I asked you what your basis for this belief was.

Annie : What I reported, honestly, for these above children has nothing to do with
my "beliefs" = which incidentally
run *against* such "autistic"-Labeling as I started writing about in a seperate thread, called "Labeling our children : How parents can Help"...

For the record : I have witnessed as well, far far more children being MIS-'labeled psychiatrically' simply because most children being *bright* : retain their abilities of staying Internally-focused for hrs/days at a time on topics/activities of Special-interest to them.
EC, I believe, spoke to this in some fashion when he said : They want to stay in their own happy world.

This frustrates most teachers to no end because, in their opinion, (every child's JOB = staying exclusively Externally-focused" on the school-environment). That's 1 reason children are being encouraged by the government into Agency day-care/schools at infant-ages, so parents have increasingly less influence morally, philosophically, educationally, etc.

To the extend/degree children, often the Brightest ones, deviate from Teacher, they run the risk of being referred to school-Counselors,
and kids these folks can't force into compliance, get referred to a psychiatrist for "proper Labeling".
Such frequent-daily processes do *FUNCTIONALLY HEALTHY CHILDREN* a huge dis-service ! And that's 1 of many critical reasons increasingly us parents are choosing Un/home-schooling, just to save our kids *intact* ! -

The above "psychiatric abuses/harms" notwithstanding, in no way negates my encounters with children who "volunteered, (hesitantly/falteringly" = fearing punishment by their parents for devulging) what I have spoken of previously in this thread...
Of course, I ckecked their disclosures out with their "Special-ed. teachers" afterwards, who confirmed
"yes, tragically so - these kids (with the exception of 1 group) have had the sexual/trauma assault unit, other siblings, adult family members, & numerous therapists confirm the truth of that ".
~~

> You did not reply. Silence or ignoring a question is not a valid response.

Annie : That's right Skip, most people I enjoy *personal healthy friendships* with agree my time is more wisely spent with people who
actually appreciate, respect and are thankful for my contributions.
~~

>In this post again say: "That is why it is so important for their *family, especially Mom : IF that's who started it, to become Healed as well*"

I think unless there is some valid basis for this belief, it is a dangerous and irresponsible one to propagate. The reason it is dangerous and irresponsible, in my opinion, is the devastating result it could have on the mother of an autistic child who might venture here, or be told by someone who takes that belief as valid. Is there anyone who can corraborate your claim?

Annie : the emphasis being on " unless there is some valid basis ... "
That validity, all too sadly, is stored in countless files of *actual Cases* in the courts, plus : Do you know how many "Pediatric psychiatric institutions" are in the USA alone ? I've worked in 2 such, besides several "Special education environments". as
they say: " Denial ain't just a river ...", or iow, Keeping one's head stuck in the sand, in denial, is equally as devastating to keep propagating.
~~

> When you make a claim that can have such devastating consequences, I believe, you have an obligation to explain how that claim was arrived at. thanks, skip

Annie : Not only do I lack "Court-authority" to open the "Sealed-cases" of countless such children just so you can leaf thru them, beyond that -
under the HIPPA-laws, I would be further restrained from so doing, to
speak nothing of the fact that, IMO, children go thru enough - not to be drugged thru anymore.

Those of us who have, in fact, worked both as:
1. Devoted parents protecting *our bright children* from totally dysfunctional "psychiatric Labeling",
as well as -
2. Dedicated teachers, facilitating growth for children at another "abused" end of the spectrum, are acting neither "dangerous nor irresponsible".

In fact, I'll be going to another "Educational conference" this weekend, where each of us is *valued for making successful Positive differences, in children's lives*.

Thank you, Annie

[skip]

Annie,

Thanks for the response. And you didnt need to put on your bullet proof underwear, all you needed to do was explain how you arrived at the conclusion "autism ... caused mostly by Mothers..."

Unfortunately you didnt answer, you dodged.

So if I understood your reply correctly, here is what I got:

1. You have dealt with about 20 cases of diagnosed 'autistic, or autistic type behavior. Your beliefs about labeling are noted, and agreed with, but we do need to have some shorthand to discuss a range of similar behavior.

2. You think if the mom is at 'fault' then she should be healed as well during the theraputic process. I would agree, if she were at fault, but there is no need to 'heal' her, if she isnt, is there?

3. The validity of your findings are, as you say, locked away in court files, which you cannot (re)open. Besides it would violate laws.

4. AND the children have been dragged thru enough.


What?

No one asked you to name names, or offer up details that would reveal identity. I really dont expect we would find many autistic children crusing thru here, and discovering their case being discussed. Nor do I expect that if you were to discuss some detail of ANY case that it would be recognizable to anyone framiliar to the case.

"Clinet M was dropped on her head by her mother at 18 months and from that moment on was withdrawn and silent and didnt display a normal awareness of her surroundings. Up until that time she was bright, responsive, affectionate, interacting child. Since that time she has been withdrawn, unresponsive ..."

Tell me Annie, what sealed file, or client confidentality did that violate?

I asked you how you arrive, after 20 cases at the conclusion that it is mostly moms who cause autism.

You say it isnt the result of any preconcieved belief. You say that preconcieved belief on your part didnt influence your opinion.

I can believe that you have concluded that in a majority of the cases you have dealt with, the mom was the cause. That is 10 or more, but certainly less than twenty, out of how many 'autistic' type cases in the world?

It isnt statistically valid.

And if even as you say the mother, in a majority of the cases you worked with, did cause trauma, how did you make the link between the trauma and the autism?

It is basic science, and it is basic to how people make breakthrus. They establish a statistically valid sampling and they establish a direct causal link. Look to how some of the people you admire, make their case Annie. Like that! They didn't decide on a belief established about other things, then transit it over to something else, based on less than 20 cases, where they havent even made a direct linkage.

You still havent answered the origional question(s). And I despair of you ever answering them.

Have fun with all those wonderful, caring, helping, folks this week end. And lets hope they dont ask any perceptive questions, so they can stay wonderful, helping, caring, folks.

skip

[Southerntbone]

Hi guys,

I don't want to sound disrespectful to how a hypnotherapies might assess the problem but I have just a couple comments that might be useful and considered:

As a near autistic child and working with a few, I have not found that the child is doing it('singing') for recognition nor attention. It is to block out the world and enter his or her own. Self-stem of auditory systems create a diversion or pathway block much the way a gate theory would work if one grasps the arm when burning the finger.

My personal(limited) experience has been that once the child does not feel threatened that the personal world they have created will be taken away, they will respond better and the "singing" will decrease.

Remove as much auditory stimulation as you can.
Make the environment safe (or apparent safe to the child).
Allow the child to feel safe 'in your world'.
Use one step commands and do not introduce new thoughts until one is completed
Introduce stimuli one at a time and slowly that cause the 'singing'.
When the intrusion is found, spoon feed the ideal that the world is still safe and not intruding upon the one the child has created.

It takes lots of time- lots of time! I am not sure the severity you are dealing with. Most of the cases I have seen were advanced. One of the greatest gains I ever made was to get the child to respond to my .."one...two..." with his own "three".

Hope that might help- I cant answer much on the hypno end of things but will gladly trade information if able.