View Full Version : NLP techiques on-line
pr-varko
09-02-2006, 11:02 AM
Hi, all.
I'm from Ukraine (Eastern Europe).
Can you recommend some NLP techniques on-line resources. Also there’s very interesting to get links for downloading audio or video (seminars, trainings).
I’ve already download all http://nlp.com/news_talkshows.aspx :). But there’s only general information.
Perhaps there's a reason for that? Perhaps really learning NLP involves going to in-person workshops rather than just downloading.
pr-varko
09-02-2006, 12:29 PM
Of course the best way to teach NLP techniques is going to in-person workshop, but what to do if I live in 10 hours of flying from such workshops?
I just want to try to get some skills in this way (I can presume the the effect will be less, but this's only the one way to improve my skills).
Poodle
09-02-2006, 01:11 PM
that excuse just doesn't get it. I was recently at a training in California in the USA. There were people from Norway, Romania, Hungary, Australia, Equador, Bhrain, England, India as well as a few Americans and Canadians. I know exactly where the Ukraine is on the beautiful steps of what was Russia. I personally have a very high regard for the people of the Ukraine and I know it is totally possible to take a plane to England. The person from Norway spent 26 or 27 hours in the air on an air plane to study in person. Do you really think that person really wanted to learn something?????? Then look at a world map and see how far Australia is from California in the USA. :mad: Pood
pr-varko
09-02-2006, 01:41 PM
Ok. I don't want discuss or even argue with you about my possibilities and preferences (it’s my decision according to value of NLP in my life – am I ready to spend such time and money. Especially I’m not a Guru, I’m just study. And I can compare the quality of different authors and resources incl. Ukrainian and Russian. As for me, I prefer west methodology and way of study) – I just ask about on-line resources.
You are ready to propose something – welcome, I’ll be kindly regard for this.
If not – nothing awful, but don’t point me how may I do. Especially according to answers without any solution.
I ask to help in my question. Just understand me correctly.
pmdigi
09-02-2006, 05:39 PM
nlp weekly (google)
pr-varko, from your post I do think I understand you. My suggestion, for you, is to get books from the library and simply do a web search under NLP. You'll find all sorts of resources.
The thing that is important to understand, my friend, is that there is an enormous difference between reading about NLP and becoming an NLP practitioner. You could read all sorts of books and websites on woodcarving, but until you actually got the tools and practiced, preferably under the guidance of a good teacher, you'd only be reading about woodworking, not doing woodworking.
Good luck on your path!
Jimr1
09-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Hi, all.
I'm from Ukraine (Eastern Europe).
Can you recommend some NLP techniques on-line resources. Also there’s very interesting to get links for downloading audio or video (seminars, trainings).
I’ve already download all http://nlp.com/news_talkshows.aspx :). But there’s only general information.
Pr Varko,
you have been told from other readers of this thread that the superior way to learn NLP is via "live training". and whether it would be a question of time or $$$ before you can go live training remains to be seen. just understand that time and time again new comers to this forum asking for on-line stuff with the expectation that they will gain skills. at the risk of stating the obvious, its HIGHLY unlikely that this will happen. hopefully you don't have to told that there is a difference between reading ABOUT a skill and ACQUIRING that skill. with that understanding, I... expect that you'll recognize that ...[websites are] NOT a substitute for live training yet will provide you with a good resource for practicing a basis skill called rapport
JIM
Jimr1
09-03-2006, 10:19 AM
Of course the best way to teach NLP techniques is going to in-person workshop, but what to do if I live in 10 hours of flying from such workshops?
I just want to try to get some skills in this way (I can presume the the effect will be less, but this's only the one way to improve my skills).
Pr Varko,
I've provided one usefull link for you in this thread
I want to add one thing. how is it that you are unwilling to fly 10 hours to to acquire skill, when if I were to search hard enough in your country, I bet I could find one of your fellow countryman who has probably gone overseas to university? and I myself am williing to fly 24hours(from Houston where I live) to Australia where a certain NLP training center operates.
now maybe you say that that's not one of your "values" yet are your standards low enough that you really wouldn't go "the extra mile" for superior training?
just a thought....
JIm
Poodle
09-03-2006, 05:32 PM
I know one very great CI and NLP Trainer that went to "Russia" so I'm willing to wager there are people a lot closer to you than you currently think. But again, the same problem -- would require travel NORTH.
When you really want it, you will find a way! Self-help in hypnosis, NLP or most other field of study is USELESS. Again, we state for probably the billionth time, would YOU really want a surgeon that LEARNED FROM BOOKS??? Also, if you look on the back pages of the Forum, there are some "Russians" redesigning NLP.
Mentalius
09-04-2006, 01:07 AM
Way back in time, there was a third guy - Frank Pucelik (Magic Demystified) - that co-created NLP together with Bandler and Grinder. He moved to either Ukraine or Whiterussia
(directly translated from my own language, I´m not sure that is the proper name), and works from there. Do a google-search, and you might just find a ressource most of us, doesn´t have close by.
Unregis
09-04-2006, 01:55 PM
Way back in time, there was a third guy - Frank Pucelik (Magic Demystified) - that co-created NLP together with Bandler and Grinder. He moved to either Ukraine or Whiterussia
(directly translated from my own language, I´m not sure that is the proper name), and works from there. Do a google-search, and you might just find a ressource most of us, doesn´t have close by.
searching in google I found these web page:
www.nfnlp.com
It seems cheap, and I think if you support that training with books and practice and more practice you can make it
Unregistered123
09-05-2006, 05:07 AM
pr-varko, from your post I do think I understand you. My suggestion, for you, is to get books from the library and simply do a web search under NLP. You'll find all sorts of resources.
The thing that is important to understand, my friend, is that there is an enormous difference between reading about NLP and becoming an NLP practitioner. You could read all sorts of books and websites on woodcarving, but until you actually got the tools and practiced, preferably under the guidance of a good teacher, you'd only be reading about woodworking, not doing woodworking.
Good luck on your path!
some of the greatest artists the world has known have taught themselves everything they know. as for doing, well, the only tools you need are the ones you adopt, there is plenty of wood lying about.
I know one very great CI and NLP Trainer that went to "Russia" so I'm willing to wager there are people a lot closer to you than you currently think. But again, the same problem -- would require travel NORTH.
When you really want it, you will find a way! Self-help in hypnosis, NLP or most other field of study is USELESS. Again, we state for probably the billionth time, would YOU really want a surgeon that LEARNED FROM BOOKS??? Also, if you look on the back pages of the Forum, there are some "Russians" redesigning NLP.
Actually, surgeons do have to learn from books - It is not useless to learn from books, where do you think your teachers get their information from (and their teachers, etc.)? Poodle, I think you are insulting a lot of people who have helped themselves by calling what they do useless. Perhaps you tried this way and it didn't work out for you, perhaps you didn't do it this way and need others to do it your way to justify to yourself the money you spent. Perhaps, because you have had success, you think the only way is your own way. These are common human sentiments. But to come over all shouty about it to people is very irresponsible. Perhaps you are right about hypnosis, but you are definitely wrong about NLP and certainly also wrong about 'most other fields of study'. Actually, NLP for example is not that sophisticated. It is really very simple to learn. Hypnosis, I have no idea. ORIGINAL POSTER: don't listen to everything you hear here fella, a lot of it is negative programming (based, at times, on insecurities, or a desire to fit in). NLP courses will sure be worthwhile - probably, as people rightly point out, the best exposure you can get - it's fully interactive (if it is) so why wouldn't it be? But what you learn if you want to learn, you can learn from books, from people, on your own (you have a mind too - practice on that), there are valuable lessons to be learned from everyone around you, human interaction and if you want to apply what you learn most importantly, you need to practice - on yourself and on others (should they let you - although changing the way you formulate sentences, for example, can get you the responses you want - experiment with that). A surgeon, would not perform surgery, without practicing what he or she knows. Probably, neither would a NLP practicioner... The most important thing for acquiring skill is practice, but contrary to what seemingly narrow minded folks might say, it is not impossible or even useless to teach yourself anything as long as you practice what you learn. Musicians, who teach themselves, learn through practice. The Arctic Monkeys are one of the most famous new bands in the world. They all of them are self taught musicians, they have only been playing for roughly 4-6 years, they are now highly accomplished... Don't be fooled by negative, poorly supported points of view.
Best regards,
Life
Connie
09-05-2006, 07:22 AM
ORIGINAL POSTER: don't listen to everything you hear here fella, a lot of it is negative programming...
There's nothing wrong with listening. The nice thing about having a mind is using it to make your own determinations as to what to believe and what course to follow.
There's nothing wrong with listening. The nice thing about having a mind is using it to make your own determinations as to what to believe and what course to follow.
Yes, you are right Connie, of course. Not many use this wonderful gift in that way though, doing so is something I would wholeheartedly encourage. Indeed, given your insightful post, it would have been better stated - 'don't believe everything you read here fella, a lot of it is negative programming'. It is apparent to me that even poorly defenceable ideas have a sneaky way of shaping our experiences if given with enough force and authority, on repeated occasion, from persons granted with trustworthy position.
Kind regards,
Life
Connie
09-05-2006, 08:59 AM
even poorly defenceable ideas have a sneaky way of shaping our experiences if given with enough force and authority, on repeated occasion, from persons granted with trustworthy position.
You're right, of course!
I tend to be a literalist when it comes to words..especially online when one doesn't have other clues to meaning. :)
Would you be so kind as to name a mere 10 of the "greatest artists the world has known" who have taught themselves everything?
Having a hammer does not make one an architect or even an expert woodworker. Worse, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Life, you are correct that surgeons learn from books. And the truth is, great hypnotists and NLP practitioners learn from books, too.
But respectfully, you're taking what Poodle wrote completely out of context and changing the meaning of what she posted. She was responding to a post where the person wanted to learn only from books. Surgeons learn from books in addition to watching (i.e., modeling) and being watched and trained by other surgeons. They do not learn from books alone.
Your statement, "NLP for example is not that sophisticated. It is really very simple to learn. Hypnosis, I have no idea." implies to me that you really don't understand NLP since one of the most important sources of NLP is the method of hypnotist Milton Erickson. In this light, your post, which presents itself as a disagreement with what Poodle wrote, comes across as a defense of your own studies, a sort of "I learning everything I need to know" from books and implying that nobody needs to know any more than you do. Therefore, anyone saying that learning only from books--which may be the way you learned--is insufficient is basically saying that you, Life, may think you know everything you need, but you've barely scratched the surface.
In other words, although Poodle gave advice to someone else (that you misinterpreted by taking it out of context), you really viewed it as an attack on you.
Further, you are completely wrong in the concept that you merely have to practice what you learned in books to be successful. If you misunderstand what Poodle wrote because of defensiveness, what other things might you have misunderstood and practiced improperly? Contrary to the belief that "practice makes perfect," practicing something in a wrong way only produces error. The truth is, only "perfect practice makes perfect," and how will you know that without someone who knows the correct way to do something and can give you that feedback?
Many years ago, Bill Haley, the force behind what is considered by many to be the first true rock 'n' roll song, "Rock Around the Clock," was told by a reporter, "your music isn't very good." Haley's response was, "Nobody said it had to be good."
Popular music and popular music players, throughout history, have frequently been self-taught. But that doesn't mean their musicianship or music is good, only that it's popular. Compare the musicianship of self-taught, popular musicians with that of great musicians who have spent years in training and schools, people who have been through Juilliard or the Musician's Institute and the self-taught artists simply pale in comparison.
"Leave Before The Lights Come On" is a great pop song. But if you think it compares to Berlioz' "Te Deum" from his Requiem or Beethoven's "Song of Joy," I would respectfully disagree. Both of them wrote music over 100 years ago and it's still being played. Do you really think "Leave Before The Lights Come On" is going to be played in 2106?
>Life, you are correct that surgeons learn from books. And the truth is, great hypnotists and NLP practitioners learn from books, too.
granted - totally agree.
>But respectfully, you're taking what Poodle wrote completely out of context and changing the meaning of what she posted. She was responding to a post where the person wanted to learn only from books.
Not so (maybe slightly) - although where was it asserted that the person only wanted to learn from books? - he (or she) was looking for online sources, online sources are now plentyful multimedia.
Actually what I find most repugnant is her insistence that self-teaching (and in practically everything) is utterly useless, this is false, and it is irresponsible to aggressively assert the contrary. Actually all learning is self learning, how could it be otherwise. Variety of circumstance only clarifies and aids your own understanding, which you are ultimately responsible for. The concepts of NLP for example are very easy and straightforward (although granted the area has exploded). But it is very simple to understand.
>Surgeons learn from books in addition to watching (i.e., modeling) and being watched and trained by other surgeons. They do not learn from books alone.
You bet.
>Your statement, "NLP for example is not that sophisticated. It is really very simple to learn. Hypnosis, I have no idea." implies to me that you really don't understand NLP since one of the most important sources of NLP is the method of hypnotist Milton Erickson.
Actually what Milton Erickson could be called 'indirect hypnosis'. Richard Bandler spent a lot of time learning how to model him. Richard Bandler is probably the most important 'source' of NLP. NLP is about modelling human behaviour. Granted, under some definitions of 'trance' some NLP 'techniques' may be classified hypnotic.
>In this light, your post, which presents itself as a disagreement with what Poodle wrote, comes across as a defense of your own studies, a sort of "I learning everything I need to know" from books and implying that nobody needs to know any more than you do.
Absolutely not. That was not the point, and that this is not the point was made clear in the previous posts.
>Therefore, anyone saying that learning only from books--which may be the way you learned--is insufficient is basically saying that you, Life, may think you know everything you need, but you've barely scratched the surface.
Ha ha - I put it to you, Don, that... What is this a court of law?! very judicial...
>In other words, although Poodle gave advice to someone else (that you misinterpreted by taking it out of context), you really viewed it as an attack on you.
No, your perception is inaccurate. Was my post an attack on you I wonder? But really if anyone gave me 'advice' in the tone and irresponsible manner that Poodle had to the original guy (at least face to face) I would probably extend my index finger and prod them promptly in the eye and tell them to wake up to themselves. (Perhaps I do see it as some form of attack, but certainly not the one you had suggested.)
>Further, you are completely wrong in the concept that you merely have to practice what you learned in books to be successful.
You are completely wrong that I put forth a concept that you have to practice what you learned in books to be successful. Although, contrary to what you say, I have, for example, successfully constructed many household objects by putting into practice what was demonstrated and informed by the leaflet provided with the object to be constructed.
>If you misunderstand what Poodle wrote because of defensiveness, what other things might you have misunderstood and practiced improperly?
I understand what Poodle wrote very well. I would throw this question back at you re me.
>Contrary to the belief that "practice makes perfect," practicing something in a wrong way only produces error. The truth is, only "perfect practice makes perfect," and how will you know that without someone who knows the correct way to do something and can give you that feedback?
NLP is not rocket science, although no one is knocking learning from those who know better than you - in fact it is the best way to learn.
>Many years ago, Bill Haley, the force behind what is considered by many to be the first true rock 'n' roll song, "Rock Around the Clock," was told by a reporter, "your music isn't very good." Haley's response was, "Nobody said it had to be good."
>Popular music and popular music players, throughout history, have frequently been self-taught. But that doesn't mean their musicianship or music is good, only that it's popular. Compare the musicianship of self-taught, popular musicians with that of great musicians who have spent years in training and schools, people who have been through Juilliard or the Musician's Institute and the self-taught artists simply pale in comparison.
>"Leave Before The Lights Come On" is a great pop song. But if you think it compares to Berlioz' "Te Deum" from his Requiem or Beethoven's "Song of Joy," I would respectfully disagree. Both of them wrote music over 100 years ago and it's still being played. Do you really think "Leave Before The Lights Come On" is going to be played in 2106?
Seems like a fair point. And, indeed, no comparison in my mind. However, did you know the Beetles, for example, were self taught. What would such artists have in common. Here's roughly 50 years and millions of people still love their music, I certainly would imagine that in another 50 years this will still be the case. I think it has more to do with timing, maybe a certain aptitude too... Many musicians who have all the training in the world these days will be long since forgotten about. As for a 100 years from now - who knows! You also seem to suggest that a thing's goodness is guaranteed by its survival through time. I'd probably have issues with that.
However, what I treat with most caution, which, in the context of the entire thread, it has been my concern to address, is, the forceful expression of naive authoritarianism. It bothers me, and I worry about it - perhaps because of my own guilt of it at times? But more so because of an awareness of its poisoness effects. tyvm.
Regards,
Life
Terry (existing)
09-05-2006, 04:58 PM
Life, I imagine you to be intelligent, but in this case you are tilting at windmills. We who inhabit this board daily, or almost daily, and have done so for a long time, are constantly inundated by ... questions from those who know nothing, want to know it all, and believe regardless of what we say, that they can learn it all from books if only we will share a few secrets with them. B..S...You can forgive our annoyance, or you can condemn it, it will make little difference to most of us, but I can tell you a few facts if you wish to hear them. Our moderators are very even tempered, unlike myself who has never suffered fools gladly, and never will, since I don;t see this as a failing. The replies given are for the most part honest and fair with the exception of some from the peanut gallery, and this board is visited by the best there is, and is the only such board I have been able to find, were honest answers are given, even if the questioner doesn't like what they hear. Our constant staement is, " If you want to practise hypnosis, or self hypnosis, you will need training, books, practise and experience. Non of these can be excepted". Now if you find that beyond your comprehension I am wasting my time, but if you understand it, you will recognise that you were indeed taking remarks out of INTENDED context, even if you feel that any misunderstanding didn't leave you at cause. Fact is, books ARE useless if the other components are left out, and the intent is to practise our art...
Life, from your post it is clear that you have only the most superficial understanding of Erickson and his life's work. I would also put the NLP skills of people such as Skip against yours any day, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he could accomplish with others what your lack of training prevents you from doing.
Finally, there are all sorts of training. The Beatles we trained by repetitive listening to and playing with some of the finest blues and popular artists in the world. They also received feedback from contemporaries.
Hmmm. Learning from the best, modeling them, and getting immediate feedback. Those are all things done when you get in-person training.
From your posts, I'm absolutely sure that you think you have mastered what you have read or downloaded. Perhaps you have. The question is, what percentage of NLP is that? 5%? 15%? How much is out there that you'll never find? How much are you don't inefficiently or ineffectively? Until you get training, you'll never know.
>Life, from your post it is clear that you have only the most superficial understanding of Erickson and his life's work.
Yes, I don't know a great deal about him, granted. I've studied bits and pieces but I'm not overly interested in him at the moment. Perhaps that will change in time? But thanks for pointing that out.
>I would also put the NLP skills of people such as Skip against yours any day, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he could accomplish with others what your lack of training prevents you from doing.
:) nice that you support your friends. (same to Terry)
>Finally, there are all sorts of training. The Beatles we trained by repetitive listening to and playing with some of the finest blues and popular artists in the world. They also received feedback from contemporaries.
>Hmmm. Learning from the best, modeling them, and getting immediate feedback. Those are all things done when you get in-person training.
Good, go for training, you will benefit from it, I'm sure you will. Don't believe lies about self help, self learning, being ineffective.
>From your posts, I'm absolutely sure that you think you have mastered what you have read or downloaded. Perhaps you have. The question is, what percentage of NLP is that? 5%? 15%? How much is out there that you'll never find? How much are you don't inefficiently or ineffectively? Until you get training, you'll never know.
Results, results... not people's points of views, results - none but these determine efficiency, effectiveness. What are you trying to do? How do you know you constructed the table right? Did you accomplish your end? Yes? What need is there for confirmation? If you doubt your efficiency and effectiveness, by all means, seek reassurance. When you know your abilities, you won't doubt them. This is not a slur on training with masters, I would reiterate, this, in conjunction with what you teach yourself, is the best way to learn.
Be aware of poisonous authoritarianism.
tyoa
Regards,
Life
>Life, I imagine you to be intelligent, but in this case you are tilting at windmills. We who inhabit this board daily, or almost daily, and have done so for a long time, are constantly inundated by ... questions from those who know nothing, want to know it all, and believe regardless of what we say, that they can learn it all from books if only we will share a few secrets with them. B..S...You can forgive our annoyance, or you can condemn it, it will make little difference to most of us, but I can tell you a few facts if you wish to hear them. Our moderators are very even tempered, unlike myself who has never suffered fools gladly, and never will, since I don;t see this as a failing. The replies given are for the most part honest and fair with the exception of some from the peanut gallery, and this board is visited by the best there is, and is the only such board I have been able to find, were honest answers are given, even if the questioner doesn't like what they hear. Our constant staement is, " If you want to practise hypnosis, or self hypnosis, you will need training, books, practise and experience. Non of these can be excepted". Now if you find that beyond your comprehension I am wasting my time, but if you understand it, you will recognise that you were indeed taking remarks out of INTENDED context, even if you feel that any misunderstanding didn't leave you at cause. Fact is, books ARE useless if the other components are left out, and the intent is to practise our art...
Thank you Terry, I agree with pretty much everything you've written. And although I don't have much admiration for the 'don't suffer fools gladly' mentality, I think it can still be a helpful approach for people other than those in possession of it. If I took remarks out of intended context it could only be due to a lack of responsible, reasonable conveyance of such intention. My primary disgust, if I am honest, was with the attitude, but to give false information, poisonous false information along with that, is really quite inexcusable, particularly for someone with editorial powers i.e. in trust of a position of authority - the irresponsibility of it is emphasised when you consider that persons in such positions, in particular, on boards with the standard of reputation of regard and quality that this forum has, are placed in a natural position of influence, in respect of their status being not given lightly. Persons in authority ought to have more care for their position and responsibility for their assertions - hasn't George W. Bush taught you American's anything! (jk) It is nice that you seek to defend your friend, but really you are not doing her any favours, to encourage this kind of behavour.
ty4yr
Regards,
Life
Connie
09-06-2006, 04:39 AM
You've made your point, vociferously and repeatedly. It seems disrespectful of our intelligence to keep going on and on. At least when Poodle and others repeat themselves, they're speaking to new ears in new topics.
I think you're giving undue power to these words on a screen. Ultimately, it comes down to choice. I have choice. You have choice. We all do. You've chosen how you want to approach learning. Go to it!
You've made your point, vociferously and repeatedly. It seems disrespectful of our intelligence to keep going on and on. At least when Poodle and others repeat themselves, they're speaking to new ears in new topics.
I think you're giving undue power to these words on a screen. Ultimately, it comes down to choice. I have choice. You have choice. We all do. You've chosen how you want to approach learning. Go to it!
Aw, sweet Connie, how funny, but sweet, your comments come out (sometimes).
A conversation usually goes on until there is nothing left to say. No one need feel inferior or take anything said personally. There has been conversation between individuals in the form of assertion and reply - call it 'deliberation' or 'reason'. There is no difference in the approach to learning advanced by most of the posters in this thread, there is in fact widespread agreement. The valuable point which you pick up on is naively stated as 'giving undue power...' I know many of your friends here will agree with me against you on that. Many seeds are planted with the pen (word), and, indeed, as is often said, the pen is mightier than the sword. Indeed the pen is why the sword is too often so destructive. Carelessness or wanton disregard with the pen can have, and can expect, appropriate consequences and reprisals. Sometimes, despite appearances, some are all too glad to suffer 'fools', especially where the allegiance of fools is strong (careful consideration of this can easily demonstrate a chunk of the problem I have with this kind of attitude).
Take care of yourself, some are often obliged to speak for everyone or even compelled to read into conversations that annoy them - and annoyance is as good a reason to express yourself as any - but I'd say this (out of respect), annoyance can cloud a persons judgement and misplaced loyalty a persons dignity, like you yourself say, we have a choice! Harder still, but not without worth, to attempt to choose wisely.
Best regards,
Life
Connie
09-06-2006, 08:39 AM
Am I funny "ha ha" or funny "peculiar?" :) I like you, Life! I hope you'll stick around and share your thoughts more. Words have always been "my thing," I do know that words have power, that's one of the main reasons I feel drawn to studying NLP.
And you're correct again, I do let other people influence me, as do we all. That's where respect and trust comes into play. I don't give that respect and trust naively or lightly, either. Some people around here have demonstrated time and again their worthiness.
> This is not a slur on training with masters, I would reiterate, this, in conjunction with what you teach yourself, is the best way to learn.
Be aware of poisonous authoritarianism.
You're correct. It's not a slur on training with masters. It's simply a defensive reaction to being told you may not know as much as you think. And the "poisonous authoritarianism" we should be most aware of is our own egotism insisting that we know more than people who have trained, studied, and practiced something for decades.
Terry (existing)
09-06-2006, 09:01 AM
Interesting turn of phrase is it not? Could it be that it is intended to suggest that all authoritarianism is poisonous? That authoritarianism that we don't agree with is poisonous? That authoritarianism based on anything other that knowledge and skill is poisonous? Nah, it can't be the later, because that would be plain truth wouldn't it? Now me, I accept the fact that I, along with many on this board am an authority on hypnosis. Fact is, I didn't inherit this, I got to be an authority by hard work and study, and by years in the trenches were the work is done and proven. Anyone who believes in short cuts is welcome to go were such will be encouraged, it is not so here thank God. If it were, I would be long gone, as would most if not all of our really big guns, the authority figures that you find so annoying Life. We have ethics, and hold ourselves to high standards...
A conversation usually goes on until there is nothing left to say....Take care of yourself, some are often obliged to speak for everyone or even compelled to read into conversations that annoy them - and annoyance is as good a reason to express yourself as any - but I'd say this (out of respect), annoyance can cloud a persons judgement and misplaced loyalty a persons dignity, like you yourself say, we have a choice! Harder still, but not without worth, to attempt to choose wisely.
Once again, Life, you show you just don't understand what's going on.
Forums such as this are not places for "conversations." If you want to have a conversation with someone, PM them. What appears on these forums are posts meant for the public.
Nobody has ever said that you shouldn't study any way you wish. Nobody has ever said that you shouldn't have an incomplete understanding of NLP and the inability to use it effectively. Nor has anyone said that attending one or more trainings is going to guarantee that you will have such understanding and ability.
What is posted here is for public consumption. Period. That's why this is a forum and not a private phone call. And the evidence and facts are in. Learning hypnotherapy and NLP are best achieved through a combination of three things:
1) in-person training
2) study of materials including hand-outs, books, videos, downloads, CD, DVDs, audio and video cassettes, etc., and
3) practice and immediate feedback to the practice
You have made very clear that you have only had one aspect of this three-fold system. As a result, you have defensively attacked any who have dared to claim that you don't have a thorough training.
Nobody here has said you must get training with person X to be trained. Nobody here has said you must study materials Y to know the subject.
Nobody here has said you must practice Z and get feedback from person(s) Q to be adequately trained.
So the claim of "poisonous authoritarianism" is simply a rationalization to attack anyone who disagrees with how you've claimed to train yourself.
In another post you made statements about Erickson which showed you didn't know much about his work. You agreed saying,"I've studied bits and pieces but I'm not overly interested in him at the moment."
This is typical of anyone who only does self-study.
Of course we want to study only what we're interested in. If a young child was given a choice, he might say, "I only study sandbox. I'm not overly interested in all that math, spelling, or history stuff at the moment." But someone who you would accuse of "poisonous authoritarianism" has decreed that the child must get in-person training and learn all of those things. Your defensive reaction would accuse those who teach children of being "poisonous authoritarians." Unless you haven't noticed, nobody is buying what you're selling.
In every training I've ever attended there have been things I've learned and practiced even though they didn't interest me "at the moment." I'm better, know more, and am more capable because of it.
Life, if you want to do nothing more than self-study, more power to you. If you chose not to acknowledge your own limitations as a result, that's up to you. If you choose to attack others for honestly making known that using only one of the three-fold aspects of training is not enough to be thoroughly trained or capable as a result, that's up to you.
And if you want to object to people standing up to your attempted written intimidation (disagree with Life and you're a poisonous authoritarian!), that's up to you, too.
It don't matter to me.
What does matter to me, because this is a public forum, is that other people reading this, people considering learning hypnotherapy and/or NLP, get reasonable, non-dogmatic information and direction so they can become the best hypnotherapist or NLP practitioner possible, thus advancing the profession. What seems to matter to you is rationalizing and defending your admittedly incomplete education as being enough and encouraging others to follow in your footsteps.
People reading you or me will do whatever they want. That's up to them. If someone comes here asking for advice on how to learn, we give them the best information possible--perhaps not exactly what they want to hear, but exactly what they need to know.
If you object to people having such knowledge, that's up to you. But I have no doubt that people here will stand up to anyone who claims that people can become experts in something without adequate training. We are supporting the advancement of our profession.
What, other than your admitted inadequate knowledge, and let's face it, your personal ego, are you supporting?
Connie
09-06-2006, 09:43 AM
I've been stung by the poison of authoritarianism! (Is that like a scorpion?) Because I AM taking Don's advice...for the 3-fold approach to learning. I want it all!! I want to be the best. If Don and the others are infecting me with their poison, I hope there's no antidote to be found. :)
Good luck, Connie!
Oh, and a few weeks ago I spent a week getting hypnotherapy trainer's training. It cost me a lot of money and required that I needed to change the dates of some needed medical tests (I was released from the hospital just a few weeks earlier).
I walk my talk. I get training, and practice, and feedback, and study class material and other material related to hypnotherapy.
Connie
09-06-2006, 10:03 AM
You go, Don!!! :) :)
Would you like me to send you some healing reiki energy? I'm a "Master" now. :D
Once again, Life, you show you just don't understand what's going on.
Forums such as this are not places for "conversations." If you want to have a conversation with someone, PM them. What appears on these forums are posts meant for the public.
Nobody has ever said that you shouldn't study any way you wish. Nobody has ever said that you shouldn't have an incomplete understanding of NLP and the inability to use it effectively. Nor has anyone said that attending one or more trainings is going to guarantee that you will have such understanding and ability.
What is posted here is for public consumption. Period. That's why this is a forum and not a private phone call. And the evidence and facts are in. Learning hypnotherapy and NLP are best achieved through a combination of three things:
1) in-person training
2) study of materials including hand-outs, books, videos, downloads, CD, DVDs, audio and video cassettes, etc., and
3) practice and immediate feedback to the practice
You have made very clear that you have only had one aspect of this three-fold system. As a result, you have defensively attacked any who have dared to claim that you don't have a thorough training.
Nobody here has said you must get training with person X to be trained. Nobody here has said you must study materials Y to know the subject.
Nobody here has said you must practice Z and get feedback from person(s) Q to be adequately trained.
So the claim of "poisonous authoritarianism" is simply a rationalization to attack anyone who disagrees with how you've claimed to train yourself.
In another post you made statements about Erickson which showed you didn't know much about his work. You agreed saying,"I've studied bits and pieces but I'm not overly interested in him at the moment."
This is typical of anyone who only does self-study.
Of course we want to study only what we're interested in. If a young child was given a choice, he might say, "I only study sandbox. I'm not overly interested in all that math, spelling, or history stuff at the moment." But someone who you would accuse of "poisonous authoritarianism" has decreed that the child must get in-person training and learn all of those things. Your defensive reaction would accuse those who teach children of being "poisonous authoritarians." Unless you haven't noticed, nobody is buying what you're selling.
In every training I've ever attended there have been things I've learned and practiced even though they didn't interest me "at the moment." I'm better, know more, and am more capable because of it.
Life, if you want to do nothing more than self-study, more power to you. If you chose not to acknowledge your own limitations as a result, that's up to you. If you choose to attack others for honestly making known that using only one of the three-fold aspects of training is not enough to be thoroughly trained or capable as a result, that's up to you.
And if you want to object to people standing up to your attempted written intimidation (disagree with Life and you're a poisonous authoritarian!), that's up to you, too.
It don't matter to me.
What does matter to me, because this is a public forum, is that other people reading this, people considering learning hypnotherapy and/or NLP, get reasonable, non-dogmatic information and direction so they can become the best hypnotherapist or NLP practitioner possible, thus advancing the profession. What seems to matter to you is rationalizing and defending your admittedly incomplete education as being enough and encouraging others to follow in your footsteps.
People reading you or me will do whatever they want. That's up to them. If someone comes here asking for advice on how to learn, we give them the best information possible--perhaps not exactly what they want to hear, but exactly what they need to know.
If you object to people having such knowledge, that's up to you. But I have no doubt that people here will stand up to anyone who claims that people can become experts in something without adequate training. We are supporting the advancement of our profession.
What, other than your admitted inadequate knowledge, and let's face it, your personal ego, are you supporting?
Ha ha! that is hilarious! But yes, I'm glad you agree with me in the end. :D I must have really put a bee in your bonnet though, ha! (sorry but you really do portray yourself as quite ignorant when you venture forth with confidence in what only amounts to an ad hominem). But let me finally say to you, Don, if you will, dear moderator (and I don't mind if anyone else reads what I have to say - yet, you address me, I address you), people come to this public forum with questions, which might request advice or otherwise, 'we' who reply are not a panel like the citizen's advice bureau, we are the people who choose to respond. I've acheived what I wanted to in this thread.
And I wish you sounder judgement in the future.
Regards,
Life
You're correct. It's not a slur on training with masters. It's simply a defensive reaction to being told you may not know as much as you think. And the "poisonous authoritarianism" we should be most aware of is our own egotism insisting that we know more than people who have trained, studied, and practiced something for decades.
I have certain outcomes which I acheive very well, as I have so here. Unlike your 'authoritarian' ad hominem, I would prefer to see my response as care than defensiveness, and I can see now very clearly, as should be apparent to all, why you choose to couch it that way. The truly great teachers among us remain forever students. 'In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few'. S. Suzuki.
Good luck to you...
Life
Interesting turn of phrase is it not? Could it be that it is intended to suggest that all authoritarianism is poisonous? That authoritarianism that we don't agree with is poisonous? That authoritarianism based on anything other that knowledge and skill is poisonous? Nah, it can't be the later, because that would be plain truth wouldn't it? Now me, I accept the fact that I, along with many on this board am an authority on hypnosis. Fact is, I didn't inherit this, I got to be an authority by hard work and study, and by years in the trenches were the work is done and proven. Anyone who believes in short cuts is welcome to go were such will be encouraged, it is not so here thank God. If it were, I would be long gone, as would most if not all of our really big guns, the authority figures that you find so annoying Life. We have ethics, and hold ourselves to high standards...
There is nothing wrong with authority, when what is put forth is justifiably defensible. What is put forth with authority but without merit, warrant, and with force, that, I would determine to be posionous authority. Authority is, by its nature, forceful, and again, I would emphasise that it comes with responsibility. If 'you' (i.e. your 'we') have ethics, then it was clearly not displayed in the case in point. I'm glad you have resolved to maintain high standards, I'm sure that you will, therefore, merit the substantial elements of the debate.
Ty
Regards,
Life
Let us hope that Poodle, who has gone very quiet 'letting others fight her battles' (perhaps), realises the care with which she ought wisely to comport herself given the responsibilities she has been honoured with.
Nice quote, Life. It comes from Shunryu Suzuki, who was the first abbot of the first Buddhist training monastery outside of Asia. I guess he considered in-person training to be important enough to start a training monastery rather than just telling people they could learn everything by reading books.
As to the "poisonous authoritarianism" which you first threw at me, what you claim was an ad hominem, if you actually read it, was an alert that there was something we should all be aware of. Your assumption that it was an attack on you was yet another reflexive reaction, showing how you are coming from effect rather than cause, and how little NLP you really know.
Thank you. I hope my judgement continues to increase in its soundness. And I hope you learn to come from cause instead of effect and move away from surety of belief to an openness to the infinite possibilities available.
Am I funny "ha ha" or funny "peculiar?" :) I like you, Life! I hope you'll stick around and share your thoughts more. Words have always been "my thing," I do know that words have power, that's one of the main reasons I feel drawn to studying NLP.
And you're correct again, I do let other people influence me, as do we all. That's where respect and trust comes into play. I don't give that respect and trust naively or lightly, either. Some people around here have demonstrated time and again their worthiness.
Ty for your kind and wise words... You just strike me as someone whom I would like and have time for in the real world.
very best,
Life
Thank you. I hope my judgement continues to increase in its soundness. And I hope you learn to come from cause instead of effect and move away from surety of belief to an openness to the infinite possibilities available.
Indeed, long may it all continue.. thank you.
Life
Nice quote, Life. It comes from Shunryu Suzuki, who was the first abbot of the first Buddhist training monastery outside of Asia. I guess he considered in-person training to be important enough to start a training monastery rather than just telling people they could learn everything by reading books.
As to the "poisonous authoritarianism" which you first threw at me, what you claim was an ad hominem, if you actually read it, was an alert that there was something we should all be aware of. Your assumption that it was an attack on you was yet another reflexive reaction, showing how you are coming from effect rather than cause, and how little NLP you really know.
Nice attempt at a dodge, but if this was your intention and you are really not at effect yourself in your reply (something that seems apparent to me) I would simply add that making an example of someone with ad hominem arguments is precisely the purpose of ad hominem. It doesn't make it any more credible as a form of argument and despite it I think I have done very well to remain at cause and resist compulsions to respond in kind to these continual misrepresentations and attacks. In an egocentric world, that is the ultimate challenge.
Shunryu Suzuki, indeed, is the source of that quote.
As I said, Life, these are public forums and not private conversations. When I write "we" I mean "we" and if I write "you" I mean "you." The comment was for all, not just you.
The fact that S. Suzuki started a monastery where students could receive in-person training, have a place to practice, and get feedback on what they were doing shows that he seems to support my position on what is required for adequate training. The fact that you couldn't find someone who says that in-person training is not required to support your position expresses a reality you seem unwilling to accept.
Connie
09-06-2006, 01:27 PM
... You just strike me as someone whom I would like and have time for in the real world.
very best,
Life
Thank you for that lovely compliment! :) I'm not in a fighting mood lately. As someone I very much admire said to me the other day...when you're feeling argumentative or disturbed, think about how important the annoyance will be 50 years from now. Not at all important.
As I said, Life, these are public forums and not private conversations. When I write "we" I mean "we" and if I write "you" I mean "you." The comment was for all, not just you.
The fact that S. Suzuki started a monastery where students could receive in-person training, have a place to practice, and get feedback on what they were doing shows that he seems to support my position on what is required for adequate training. The fact that you couldn't find someone who says that in-person training is not required to support your position expresses a reality you seem unwilling to accept.
Not at all. Now take care of yourself, I've nothing further to add here - and thanks for your provocative responses, magnanimous as they are.
Regards,
Life
Poodle
09-06-2006, 07:28 PM
This has gotta be the FIRST TIME ON THIS FORUM THAT DON HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING IGNORANT. Personally knowing Don, and his vast knowledge on about every subject matter I find it quite amusing. Hopefully, I will be equally "ignorant"! That's an aspiration worthy of having. Pood ;)
LOL!
Actually, ignorance is a wonderful thing. You can't learn about something until you realize you don't really know it and want to end that ignorance. That's why I like to say, "The beginning of wisdom is the realization of ignorance."
Ah, there are so many things I'm sorrowfully ignorant about. Those are the things I'll listen to other people talking about or read about or take classes to explain. Ignorance is a beautiful thing.
To me, there is a big difference between being ignorant and being stupid. If you teach basic math to an ignorant person, that person will be able to use what they've learned and move ahead in the world. A stupid person, whenever adding 2 and 2 will always get a sum of 5 or 6 or 3, anything but 4.
We need more ignorant people in government! They need to be willing to learn what they don't know so they can do the best in their roles representing us.
Unfortunately, we get far too few ignorant people and far too many stupid ones. It was a cruel joke saying that we get the government we deserve.