View Full Version : Embedded commands/ Suggestion
Sponge
06-01-2004, 01:42 PM
I want to know ways to hypnotise people without them being consiously aware they're being hypnotised.
I want to learn about embeded commands and suggestion only for effects like what derren brown does(not hypnotherapy ect.)(plz dont reply saying he uses stooges etc.).
I think its called waking hypnosis, but i cant find much about it.
Can anyone give any tips/ recommend books?
"TranceFromations" by Bandler and Grinder
"The Structure of Magic" Bandler and Grinder
If you want to actually hear and experience it done well, "The Personal Enhancement Series" by Bandler
skip
norbert
06-01-2004, 01:53 PM
There is a video tape series where you can see and hear R. Bandler doing a lot of hypnosis. Called the "state of the art series Vol 1 to 5". Certainly an special experience.
Sponge
06-01-2004, 02:40 PM
TranceFormations (i assume it wasnt fromations?) was out of print.
Ive read enough things about how these techniques work and i understand them, but i want a good word-by-word example to follow to get me started. Because im not sure that some things ive seen(derren brown making someone not be able to move their hand from a table/ making someone forget where they're going etc.) are possible using waking hypnosis. so i want some proof i can do it before i go developing my own techniques.
If I may weigh in with a sleight suggestion here.
If someone offered you a book, "Here is how Derren Brown did it and it is ALL REAL, and if you just practice, as we say, YOU CAN TOO!" Would your fantasy desire drive you to buy the book? You have "seen" Derren do it, havent you? So you know it is real, and can be done!
Or would you stop trying to emulate an entertainer, as if what they entertain you with, works in reality. You dont really think that what you saw in the movie "The Matrix" was real, and yet you persist in believing that what you saw in an equally well put together 'performance' was real.
How is it that you can persist at this?
Magical thinking?
Learn what actually works, in reality, well, and you will surpass what Derren Brown can do.
It just wont fit in the format of a television or stage show.
Sponge
06-02-2004, 03:32 AM
I know that techniques derren brown "says" he uses actually work, psychological forces for example, but people say they dont and he uses stooges etc. so if people dont think they work people might wrongly think all his effects are "cheating".
I have never been hypnotised but i can believe it works, so i also believe that you can hypnotise people quickly in 20 seconds or less and i think you could do it without them knowing they were being hypnotised by using embedded comands/suggestion.
i found an article that (if its true) means that you can do the things ive wanted to be able to.
http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/articles.htm
But i want some evidence that its possible for me to do. I want to know if the reason it doesnt work when ive tried it is because im not doing it right or if its impossible.
i found alot of hypnosis scripts but they all involve relaxing the subject and taking a long time to do it. if you could suggest any fast "waking hypnosis" scripts that would be helpful.
I can assure you, NOW, it wont work for you, as long as you persist in having to "know" before you "learn".
If as you say, you do know that Darren DOES, ACTUALLY, do the things he claims, then you are putting yourself in the position of saying that you think you might be inferior to Darren in some way, other than an aquired skill, he has, that you dont.
Is that true, or just a limiting belief, that you have about yourself that you were unaware of until now?
Would a better belief, for you to have be, "If one man can do it another man can learn it?"
Forget Darren Brown for a moment, and ask yourself how many times this belief you used to have, about being unable to learn, to do anything that anyone else can do, has held you back in some way. Where might you now be if you didnt stop yourself from going ahead and, "just doing it?"
Think for a moment about your future, still clinging to the useless belief that others can learn to do things that you cannot. AND compare it to the future you can envision and feel compelling you forward, if you know with certainty that you CAN learn anything that someone else can do.
Which future do you choose? Because you cannot avoid choosing one or the other.
See you can realize now, that it is far better to act, than it is to spend time in threads with over a hundred questions and responses that didnt get you anywhere, did it?
You havent profited yet, from this discussion, you merely entrenched yourself further in your belief, that Darren can do these things, and that you cannot.
I think you are wrong on both counts. And no that isnt a contradiction. :)
AND I am also convinced that you wont do it, for two reasons. First you dont believe you can, and that will most certainly assure you that you wont. And second you prefer to talk about it, research it, argue with people about it, and spend all that time and energy to no benifit to yourself, when you could have done some of it yourself already, for the same time and effort spent.
It is you whom you must convince to the point that you WILL ACT, and that hasnt happened yet, has it? If you really do believe that Darren does these things, then the only reason for not acting is because you are sure you cannot. So please spare me the inevetable response, getting mad, and trying to assure me that you dont have the limiting belief, and that your time hasnt been wasted, because that will only be wasting more, and further demonstrating to me that I am right.
If you have the courage of your convitions, ACT. If not continue to fail to act, and continue to fail to achieve what you want.
the best to you,
skip
Sponge
06-02-2004, 08:52 AM
i get what your saying but i have acted upon it.
ive tried many of the things i have learnt and they work.
and while i continue to do the things i have already learnt i want to know more about how to do these and better techniques.
What i meant by, "But i want some evidence that its possible for me to do. " is that people have alot of opinions about if what DB does can be achieved through what he says he does, i think it can(even if HE doesn't do it that way), but i wanted some proof to start me off developing my own techniques etc.
(yes i have noticed ive just done what you said i'd do and waste time)
Do you believe you can hypnotise people?
as your on this forum i assume you do.
But do you believe you can hypnotise people in less than 30 seconds or without them knowing they're being hypnotised?????
Sponge, if Brown could really do what you believe he does, why would he be wasting his time doing magic shows? He could be making millions a month instead of a tiny percentage of that.
He is a magician. He does magic tricks. Instead of dressing up in a tux, he dresses his tricks up with NLP and psychological terms that seem to have some reality.
You can ask about this a thousand times, but the results are still the same. You may as well ask for information about how to get adamantium claws that will jut out of your hands with a "snikt" sound like Wolverine.
In answer to your last questions:
Can people be hypnotized in less than 30 seconds? Yes.
Can this be done without their knowledge? That depends upon your definition of hypnosis. If you are talking about the "close your eyes and go deeply into trance" type of hypnosis, no. If you are talking about changing their state from one trance level to another where they MIGHT be more open to suggestions if worded properly, then yes. This is instinctive to sales people (or taught to them). But most people still walk away without buying anything.
Sponge
06-02-2004, 10:31 AM
i know people can have their state changed in under 30 seconds but is it possible to make someone not be able to move their hand, for example, when they are looking at it and when they THINK theyre in a normal state?
I've seen this done by derren brown and he does a similar thing at his live show, but i know you dont believe what he does is real(and maybe it isnt),
solaris152000
06-02-2004, 10:57 AM
Lets just stop debating on if derren can do the things he can do without magic. Lets just all assume that WE CAN. So does anyone know any sites which give goood information onthe art of waking hypnosis?
Sponge
06-02-2004, 11:32 AM
solaris, ive found a good hypnosis site- www.hypnosis.com/trance
its not waking hypnosis but its got some good examples of hypnosis.
http://www.hyptalk.com/Suggestibility.htm has a few tests on it to show you how suggestible you are to hypnosis.
(see that was more helpful than saying derren brown cant do stuff etc.
now lets all play nice)
Robert
06-02-2004, 11:39 AM
The only difference between in "waking" hypnosis, and into "non-waking"hypnosis" is within the eyes themselves. That is to say are they - that is the eyes open or closing now? That is really the only or at least deepest difference phenomena that there is in hypnosis. Hypnosis is the alteration of state how you are feeling now. How good does it feel to relax, doesn't feeling good go along with it. Well now, my point is simple...it's only about eyes open or closing. Read more deeply into tranceformations because it's good.
Sponge
06-02-2004, 01:17 PM
robert, i dont understand what you mean :confused:
you said "That is to say are they - that is the eyes open or closing now?" what!?!???!
ive just ordered a book called "Fun with hypnosis" by svengali. the reviews werent that good, has anyone read it?
I think if i learn about hypnosis i'll be able to condense what ive learnt and use it in the "waking state". Does anyone think that'll work?
Sponge,
I listed two boks for you that will teach you how to do EXACTLY what you ask, hypnotize someone within 30 seconds, without their overt awareness. (And you better believe that is different from without their consent.)
And I suggested a tape set where you could actually hear it done, to you, no less.
AND someone else suggested a Video that you could learn from.
And YOU report that you have now bought a book for which the reviews werent "that good".
What does that say to me and others who have tried to respond to you with good solid information?
Given your responses to date, why should anyone here make any effort to assist you?
Sponge
06-02-2004, 02:12 PM
i have looked up the two books you suggested and they were both rare and out of print.
im about to find out about the tape you said and the video norbert suggested.
Do you know where to find any free (free being the key word here) courses or websites about it?
Unregistered
06-02-2004, 02:32 PM
Has anyone read "Full Facts Book of Cold Reading" by Ian Rowland and if they have, is it good?
Cheers
Sponge
06-02-2004, 02:36 PM
i havent read it but ive seen alot of good reviews and alot of recommendations for it.
Unregistered
06-02-2004, 02:40 PM
Thank you Sponge - it is quite expensive but it does look interesting!
Hawkes
06-02-2004, 06:45 PM
Sponge, i'll admit to you straight off and say i'm not an expert on NLP. Most of what i know is basic information that i'm only beginning to understand fully, and what is helping me to understand fully is to actually have some experience with techniques like embedded commands/suggestion. You could read all the evidence out there, memorise all of the techniques available to you, but until you try it out, and fail which is going to happen, it's the only way to learn isn't it?
A question you might want to ask yourself is why you want to be able to do the things you want to do with this embedde commands. When you've got that answer, you'll find that you'll be able to make happen what you want to happen... whatever that is. Making someone unable to move their hand... i don't know how Derren does it, but couldn't you just make the person "convince" their hand to go to sleep, so that it is hard for them to move it?
And to add, Derren uses a mix of psychology and standard magic, i wouldn't put all of my faith in the guy. But i would watch how he does act, how he carries himself. And then use what you see there, see what works for you, and lose what doesn't. Hell, you want some tips i was given, watch some interview programs, shopping channels, news channels and watch how they act and talk. It all can help to show you how to come across in a commanding way, but in a friendly way aswell.
TranceFormations can be found at Powells web site but it is out of print and they want $75.00 for the paperback. I would say its worth it, but I also would tend to wait for a reprinting.
Structure of Magic Vols 1 and 2 were found at Alibris, $11.00 and up per volume.
Kenton Kneppler's Cold Reading is excellent. I think I paid $40.00
skip
Merlin
06-02-2004, 07:23 PM
>The only difference between in "waking" hypnosis, and into "non-waking"hypnosis" is within the eyes themselves.
not true
Merlin
06-02-2004, 07:27 PM
Skip,
You really think there'll be a reprint?
You know some inside info about Bandler/Grinder?
Annie
06-02-2004, 10:30 PM
Robert,
> The only difference between in "waking" hypnosis, and into "non-waking"hypnosis" is within the eyes themselves.
Merlin already told you, correctly, that this ain't true.
> That is to say are they - that is the eyes open or closing now? That is really the only or at least deepest difference phenomena that there is in hypnosis.
Nor is this true.
Go ahead : there are wonderful abilities *Inside You* waiting for you to happily explore/discover them :)
Annie
06-03-2004, 12:21 AM
Hi Hawkes,
2 things:
Your last sentence was : " It all can help to show you how to come across in a commanding way, but in a friendly way as well. "
What would you use the commanding voice for ?
The subconscious mind acting as Keeper of all emotions, is very sensitive so talking in a "commanding" way, including how far you take this, can result in a person's mind trusting you no more. I imagine you want something else, right?
Consider the exceptions to this being if a person was "harm"-ing, either themself or other people.
How much experience do you have guiding Grade-school aged children in a *nurturing, reassuring* way :) ?, as that's the level at which, approximately, most people's subconscious operates on emotionally.
~
re : " Making someone unable to move their hand... i don't know how Derren does it,
It's actually a fun and easy game, of the sort you learned as a small child :)
> but couldn't you just make the person "convince" their hand to go to sleep, so that it is hard for them to move it ?
As each person is pretending beliefs like that are true, they will convince themselves spontaneously.
solaris152000
06-03-2004, 08:01 AM
Yes but it is alot more fun for some one to just realise that there hand is stuck to the table without them relizing they have been hypnotized now isnt it?
solaris152000
06-03-2004, 08:47 AM
Hey everyone I found an intresting article.
http://worldtrans.org/TP/TP1/TP1-93.HTML
Its pretty good.
j0hnny#
06-03-2004, 09:04 AM
I would be willing to lend a friend an ebook version of Tranceformations in exchange for a lend of e.g. Personal enhancement series - audio book, frogs into princes in .pdf format or structure of magic - in audio or ebook format. Incidently I think that tranceformations would be worth every penny if it was still in print (and perhaps its not so bad a price out of print i.e. worth it - truth is, I just can't afford paying £75 odd for it, so had to get it elsewhere)....
Robert
06-03-2004, 09:18 AM
Annie and Merlin,
True enough. If you look closely at the language patterns in those few sentences I posted ....you might notice that those same patterns used with rapport and timing and tonality could be an example of the languaging of a rapid induction.
My post was intended as an example, rather than a philosophical description of waking trance vs somnabulistic trance.
All the best,
Robert
Sponge
06-03-2004, 10:24 AM
Hawkes, thanks for the tips.
Can anyone give me a description of how to do the hand thing? you all make it sound easy.
what is the technique called where you give embedded comands by saying words differently to have a completely different meaning?
i saw derren brown do this when he said "finger" and made it sound like "vinegar" so someone picked vinegar in a supermarket.
Merlin,
Yes I do, but it isnt inside information.
I think the book and the information therein is too valuable to be lost. From a consumers point of view.
Used paperback copies are selling at $75.00 US. AND they are selling. Makes me wonder how much my hardbound is worth, and where the hell my paperback got lent to. My favorite is the edition where the majician on the cover has three hands. I wonder how many people notice that.
As you can see from a later post, already they are losing sales to people trading this information +/- illegally via e-books.
So obviously there is a demand.
As a result someone will figure out a way to get B&G to allow for a reprint, and while I suspect the price will be more than the original, it is bound to be less than the current market price.
AND I can guarantee it, if I were to make it one of my outcomes. :)
skip
Merlin
06-03-2004, 07:35 PM
Fun, yes.
But some people might not thing so.
What you suggest is a good way to get a broken nose (or worse).
Hello,
Being a "Master Hypnotist" amongst other titles. My question for Sponge is "for what purpose?" do you want to hypnotise people without their concious awareness?
Kind regards
Kim x
Sponge
06-04-2004, 05:07 AM
my only purpose is for a trick.
no other reason.
i want to be able to hypnotise people, then do it fast (in about 30 seconds), then do it without them knowing why they couldn't move or talk or whatever.
i think it would be more of a surprise if i didnt go through all the, "you are feeling relaxed" stuff.
The problem is most of the books on hypnotism are for therapy, and im not at all interested in that kind of thing.
im not entierly sure how much of what i said i want to do is possible. But i have seen derren brown and a few others(not many) do it.
solaris152000
06-04-2004, 01:37 PM
Hmmm You might have to add the suggestion that they are very weak then....lol
Sponge
06-04-2004, 02:02 PM
:confused: what do you mean solaris? :confused:
i found a demonstation of the not being able to move your hand thing. If i could learn to do that it would be fun. though the tricks a bit out of reach for someone who has (nearly) never hypnotised someone. :mad:
Sponge
06-04-2004, 02:17 PM
im stupid, i forgot to add the link.
here it is. http://www.geocities.com/chatting_is_cool/derren/sounds/derren_whiley_part2.mp3
check it out even if you dont like DB.
If all you want to do is a trick where people can't move or talk, there are means of doing that without going to the bother of learning hypnosis or NLP. Check with the magicians.
Sponge
06-04-2004, 02:39 PM
how would it be possible without hypnosis??
i dont want some cheap trick where you tie people up or anything pointless like that.
i used the cant move/talk thing as an example, there is other stuff i want to do using hypnosis (mostly tricks though)
There are ways of doing it.
Establishing that it is something that the persons' unconcious would deem ecological would be the first thing. I don't personally agree with Hypnosis being used for "fun" as it undermines the credibility of those of us that use it theraputically, therefore that is all I will help you with.
kind regards
Kim :-)
solaris152000
06-09-2004, 09:07 AM
We akll agree that hypnosis ios a very effective treatment, but it can be fun as well. Besides if someone was hypnotized into thinking they were a chicken they might think. Wow that was effective maybe hypnosis can help me quit smoking to?See, how it just proves that it is not just nonsenese
Sponge
06-09-2004, 10:49 AM
how does it "undermine the credibility of those of us that use it theraputically"?
Racing drivers dont undermine the cred of ambulance drivers.
how fast is it possible to get someone into a trance to give suggestion like- they cant say the alphabet or- they cant count or something like that.
Robert
06-09-2004, 04:22 PM
I did a rapid induction once where I had this guy believing he was a chicken in 30 seconds. I did it mainly to get him to leave me alone, as once he found out I was a hypnotist he was harrassing me, and teasing about it, and making a big deal of "i could never hypnotize him to quack like a duck"
this kept on for some days...so I finally consented to his request. He was walking around going "quack" "quack" ....why am I saying this..."quack" "quack" it's like I believe I'm a duck or something....'quack.
I was tempted to leave him like that, but after about 5 minutes I removed the suggestion. He was then in awe of me, and stopped harrassing me and making fun of me. which was my outcome.
how fast is it possible to get someone into a trance to give suggestion like- they cant say the alphabet or- they cant count or something like that.
Robert
06-09-2004, 04:23 PM
I meant to say ...i had him believing he was a duck.
Terry
06-10-2004, 10:05 AM
Like so many, you ask," show me, show me now, and don't bother me with the details......This attitude is what will prevent you from EVER learning what it is you want to know....I use waking hypnosis daily, but I couldn't, and wouldn't teach it. I suspect that any highly competent hypnotist of many years exerience has formed habits that allow them to do it also, but it is done so well, that they are not aware most times that they are using it.....I am aware, only because of the many years of research I put in to be the best I could be, while you want it all now and for nothing. Do you see any problem in that? Terry
Patience is a virtue that few aspire to, and fewer still achieve.....
solaris152000
06-10-2004, 10:37 AM
I am not impaicent I want to learn, I can't learn at colledge beause I am only 14!! But I want to know as much as anyone can tell me on waking hypnosis, please I really want to learn.
Hello,
the comparison of a racing driver to an ambulance driver is comparing two equally credible professions. Not the point that I was making.
When speaking to clients any questions I get about hypnotising them is always "will you make me cluck like a chicken" etc etc. I always have to pre-frame that they are in control etc etc.... The fun side of hypnosis is always there. I won't be a party to giving people quick lessons for their amusement.
Were I -personally - to support someone in learning how to achieve rapid trance for the purpose of fun, I know that this would go against my personal beliefs about hypnosis. I respect others' models of the world, this does not mean that I have to change my beliefs as a result of that.
Kind regards
Kim x
solaris152000
06-11-2004, 06:29 AM
We will not just use these methods for fun, if we ever came across someone who wanted to stop smoking we could then help them also. Will anyone give us the knowledge we require??
RussWilde
06-16-2004, 01:38 PM
Hawkes, thanks for the tips.
Can anyone give me a description of how to do the hand thing? you all make it sound easy.
what is the technique called where you give embedded comands by saying words differently to have a completely different meaning?
i saw derren brown do this when he said "finger" and made it sound like "vinegar" so someone picked vinegar in a supermarket.
Finger??
Didn't you notice he was talking about crisps and marketting earlier and used the phrase
"salt and..." [pause] "whatever"
I love the fact that the victi.. er. Guy gave a completely different excuse for his choosing vineger at the end.
Sponge
06-18-2004, 12:49 PM
yes, i noticed that but he also used the other technique, and im more interested in that one.
i hope what the guy said about him needing vinegar wasnt how the trick was done, that would be a bit too set up.
on the same episode, how did he do the trick where he made that person not be able to move. was it purely based on when he said stuff like christmas sTopping instead of shopping etc or was there pre-hypnotising going on??
Unregistered
08-15-2004, 02:57 PM
Derren Brown is not a documentary, scientific explanation of waking hypnosis. He controls the situation in such a way to have him in control. Some of the stuff he does would not be possible by the average person on the street. Having a camera crew and boom microphone pointing in your face, for example, causes you to withdraw into yourself looking for clear instructions as to what to do next. This all helps with the suggestions he then gives them.
His choice of language, surroundings and team are all important in his effects working. He knows a lot about the field and so is aware of exactly what he needs to do to get the trick to work. Although, he doesnt always get it right! Yet still a very impressive gentleman!
Mark
Frog420
08-19-2004, 10:47 AM
ok quick induction huh? is this for total strangers or friends? if it's for friends find out what their predominant senses are, visual, audio, kinsewhatever or the forth one that i can't remember the name of (analytical people) talk to em, use any infomation you have about them to make you seem the same as them (don't be obvious), be friendly, pace n lead all the time slowing em down till your ready to begin and then do a very quick induction, such as a hands together or feet stuck to the floor induction, quick easy and more importantly for you it'll be 'fun'
am i right or am i right
Unregistered
09-30-2004, 07:59 AM
Has anyone read "Full Facts Book of Cold Reading" by Ian Rowland and if they have, is it good?
Cheers
Hi
Yes I have the book - very informative - most 'mediums', 'clairvoients', 'fortune tellers' use all this stuff - I am not saying that such entities do not exist, however, this information on the techniques that might be used would would eliminate at least 99% of them
WCM
Unregistered
09-30-2004, 11:09 AM
Try www.whisperinginthewind.com go to discussion forum and search for
what I did today arthur. that should give you something to try
Keith Livingston
09-30-2004, 12:26 PM
There's a free conversational hypnosis (http://www.hypnosis101.com/tips.htm) email course on this page...
http://www.hypnosis101.com/tips.htm
Scroll down past the hypnosis article links to the "Other Hypnosis/NLP Related Newsletters" section.
Enjoy,
Keith Livingston
i have looked up the two books you suggested and they were both rare and out of print.
im about to find out about the tape you said and the video norbert suggested.
Do you know where to find any free (free being the key word here) courses or websites about it?