language structures...

[gettingbrighter]

Hi all.

I'm curious about language structures used in NLP and by those who are either training to become NLP Practitioners or are NLP Practitioners, Hypno-therapists and a mixed of both. Michael Hall has a book called "Mind Lines" which I'm currently reading and it's amazing how language can be structured in such a powerful ways.

For those of you who have reached a point of competency and beyond with the art of NLP and hypnosis - can I ask how you practiced your ability to use such language structures and patterns? How do you see, hear and feel - about yourself and the person you are communicating with - when you are using these language structures in general?

I feel I'm at the 'conscious competence' stage but I do find that the language structures and questions to ask to find say 'complex equivalents' to be quite challenging and difficult.

So can this group of experienced Practitioners here be kind of enough to discuss your experiences on this topic...

gettingbrighter

[welshguymikey]

can I ask how you practiced your ability to use such language structures and patterns? How do you see, hear and feel - about yourself and the person you are communicating with - when you are using these language structures in general?

I feel I'm at the 'conscious competence' stage but I do find that the language structures and questions to ask to find say 'complex equivalents' to be quite challenging and difficult.



practicing rapport and keeping a conversation going imo is fundamental training in nlp and counselling. When you next meet a complete stranger try and hold a conversation with them for as long as possible while saying as little as possible, when you can feel what they feel and you can have a long conversation with most anyone you meet then imo you have completed basic training in rapport.
After this you could try and use anchors for example to make them laugh. and try out other techniques to and see what feedback you get. Dont forget to try and find out what their mode is (visual, auditary etc) and try to look for eye accesing cues.

im heavy in my study of nlp and light in my use of it, if i can take shortcuts i will.
for instance when trying to find out if they are visual auditary, etc you can do it the conventional way or say things liek this:

1) "I sense that somthing is wrong in your life" (sense can mean anything, they will automatically use their dominant one)
2) "i want you to see, taste, hear, touch and smell everything in this room"

in therapy personally i would give an initial appointment to find out the problem etc then give another appointment a few days later to give myself time to come up with an as perfect technique as i can.


any other questions, or if you dotn understand what i said please post them up for me:)

[Unreg]

can I ask how you practiced your ability to use such language structures and patterns? How do you see, hear and feel - about yourself and the person you are communicating with - when you are using these language structures in general?


I don't know if this is of any help, but I went through a phase of drawing a lot of visual diagrams of language structures, then I started to remember the diagrams (visual internal), then I would see the diagrams in my mind more and more easily when communicating with other people.

The diagrams were structured in such a way as to offer multiple choice.

I also read the Mind Lines book you mentioned & a Robert Dilts book called "Sleight of Mouth". I also bought a CD on eBay which was made by someone called Philip Rockliff (I think), who had mapped out a lot of the sleight of mouth patterns, but called it Conversational Reframing instead. The CD was like a big web-site that just ran off the CD, but was very visual & hyperlinked, like web-pages. Quite clever. I don't know if it's still available, though.

There are probably endless ways of structuring this stuff. The main thing is to get to 'unconscious competence' where you just kinda flow with it.

[Poodle]

That is the third stage of learning. Practice makes it unconscious competence.

[nUnregistered]

practicing rapport and keeping a conversation going imo is fundamental training in nlp and counselling. When you next meet a complete stranger try and hold a conversation with them for as long as possible while saying as little as possible, when you can feel what they feel and you can have a long conversation with most anyone you meet then imo you have completed basic training in rapport.
After this you could try and use anchors for example to make them laugh. and try out other techniques to and see what feedback you get. Dont forget to try and find out what their mode is (visual, auditary etc) and try to look for eye accesing cues.

im heavy in my study of nlp and light in my use of it, if i can take shortcuts i will.
for instance when trying to find out if they are visual auditary, etc you can do it the conventional way or say things liek this:

1) "I sense that somthing is wrong in your life" (sense can mean anything, they will automatically use their dominant one)
2) "i want you to see, taste, hear, touch and smell everything in this room"

in therapy personally i would give an initial appointment to find out the problem etc then give another appointment a few days later to give myself time to come up with an as perfect technique as i can.


any other questions, or if you dotn understand what i said please post them up for me:)


welshguymikey

re:" when you can feel what they feel and you can have a long conversation with most anyone you meet then imo you have completed basic training in rapport"

Rapport is the byproduct of pacing and leading someone and you can pace them in many ways. yet feeling what they feel and sustaining a long conversation is by no means a key indicator of rapport and is certainly not an indication of "basic training" in it. when someone has followed YOUR lead, you have rapport.

Jim

[welshguymikey]

welshguymikey

Rapport is the byproduct of pacing and leading someone and you can pace them in many ways. yet feeling what they feel and sustaining a long conversation is by no means a key indicator of rapport and is certainly not an indication of "basic training" in it. when someone has followed YOUR lead, you have rapport.

Jim

basic training, means perscisely that, basic, rapport must be gained before you can lead, if you cant hold a long conversation then you dont have rapport, if you dont have rapport you cant lead.
Im sure the poster of this thread knows about pacing, if not i appologise for not mentioning that.
And being able to feel what they feel is a key part to rapport imo

[Sleep]

>>can I ask how you practiced your ability to use such language structures and patterns?

structure your practice of each pattern, so that each day you know you're gonna spend x amount of time solely using say the 'meta model' or 'criteria ellicitation' or whatever. i find this is a good strategy. in the early days john and richard would say 'it only takes 20 minutes each day for about two weeks to gain unconcious competence in whatever it is your learning' which is about right for me.

[Poodle]

Rapport is the understanding and appreciation of another human being's model of the world and communicating that understanding and appreciation to them in such a way that trust is established.

Fact - Each person is an individually organized "reality"

Fact - There are no two people with the same reality

Fact - Our concepts of reality are usually out of consciousness.

In order to understand another person from their point of view, we must be able to walk in their shoes (their model of the world), pace their experience (they do not pace ours).

Through the skills of pacing another person's behaviour, it is possible to graciously enter their unique personal reality and begin to understand the world as they experience it. (Remember: pace, pace, lead)

One way is to mirror their external behaviour.

In simple terms, we mirror the behaviour of the client. This establishes instant rapport. Mirroring does not need to be done at the same exact time -- you may have a 30-40 second delay in the process and it will still work the same. One does not, however, mirror crappy behaviour.

This actually goes all the way back to Franz Mesmer. That's OLD! Pood

[gettingbrighter]

Hi all,

I'm always looking for ways to improve my NLP skills.

Now I look, listen and understand people differently. I use to be oblivious to many of the slight mannerisms and changes in language that people do when communicating with others (including myself). A person's multitude of maps in different terrains (umm... territories) is amazing.

Since I've been learning NLP I've noticed that in a lot of cases I misread the communication given or didn't know how to adjust accordingly to create and maintain rapport as well as connect with another person. There is a lot of calibration between people that is very unconscious and really only becomes conscious through knowledge and proper recognition.

Personally I'm still grasping the "Pacing" and "Leading" concept...

When do I adjust? How do I know where the person is so to pace or lead more or less? When a person switches maps (or experiences) has their pace or lead changed? Do I still maintain rapport or do I break rapport to ascertain if the person will reciprocate back the rapport that I've initiated?

... are all questions I ask and more when speaking to people. Most of the time I seem to do it unconsciously... but it seems like I'm running my map instead of the one of the person I'm speaking to! :) Sometimes I have to take the mirror away of myself and my maps just so I can attempt to grasp the map of the other person. I find this particularly interesting... since when I'm engaging in another person's map I find that the person in question becames highly responsive and interested. Yet if I maintain this engagement for too long then I find that, the person becomes suspicious and breaks the rapport. This occurs often unless I provide a gem of information or feedback in return.

Although sometimes there are people who I just want to run away from because I feel like they are hypnotising me when they speak of how bad their situation is. Although there is much to learn from such people... it can become quite depressing and I don't want to be depressed in course of listen to another person's map either!

What I find most interesting is how observant I must be in the other person's actions and behaviour. I find even slight changes in tone, hand gestures and even emotional connection with the person causes amazing changes in the other person's behaviour. Now I take in the whole body of a person - when observing - instead of just the head and shoulders which currently is quite a task for me.

Also I've acquired a good understanding of VAK and its application from Stephen Heller's book "Monsters & Magic Sticks". I felt it was a great introduction to NLP for me and gave me an incentive to read up and learn more on Richard Bandler, Frank Pucelik and John Grindler.

When speaking to people in general I've learnt to typically ask - indirectly of a person - whether they were right- or left-handed. Then I ask the person on what their daily experience is today.

From this casual discussion I can usually ascertain (in a relatively accurate way) whether the person is visual, auditory, kinesthetic or a combination. I find that a person can be visual-kinesthetic in one description of an experience and then switch over to say auditory-kinesthetic for another experience which crosses over the person's original experience.

The real fun begins when a person is stacking meta programs (or "meaning boxes") on top of each other. So one experience would lead to another and then another and then another and I feel like they've got me caught in a series of nested loops! :)

I found Richard Bandler's "State of the Art" videos great for learning how to elicit responses and creating multiple nested loops of metaphor-based story telling to elicit certain responses. Examples of responses which I attempt to elicit are hestiation, frustration, desire, motivation, joy, happiness, etcera.

Then of course this leads me to the structures of the metaphors through story telling (either real or fictional) so to elicit such responses.

Geesh... I feel like I'm chunking down quite a bit here! :)

This is where my interest in language structures has heightened significantly. The Mind Lines book is just amazing in the combinations in which the language - that is spoken to another person - can be altered to yield such a variety of resulting responses.

I find it's one thing to read examples in a book yet another to apply them linguistically in the melee that is a conversation or discussion. The beauty of Mind Lines is that each of the meta levels can be used in combinations until a desired resulting response(s) is reached.

I find that applying combinations of languages structures (or meta levels) into metaphors (or stories) which elicit certain responses to be quite difficult at first. Keeping each of these stories bookmarked in my mind so I can keep track of the nested loops I'm in and the stage of response that is occurring. This is before observing the person's VAK and body language for resulting physical responses!

So am I over-analysing the situation? Am I looking at this the wrong way... does NLP come more naturally then mechanically derived in books and seminars? Should I instead work with each chunk bit-by-bit and work on the details once I have the general concept working?

This is why I've posed this question here in this forum... to learn from what your maps have become upon the journey of learning and becoming 'unconscious competent' with NLP techniques.

gettingbrighter

[welshguymikey]

Do I still maintain rapport or do I break rapport to ascertain if the person will reciprocate back the rapport that I've initiated?

i was taught to try changing my body position and see if they do the same, or if you notice they have a pattern of behaviour try and change that pattern, so i guess yes would be the answer to your question.

[welshguymikey]

So am I over-analysing the situation? Am I looking at this the wrong way... does NLP come more naturally then mechanically derived in books and seminars? Should I instead work with each chunk bit-by-bit and work on the details once I have the general concept working?

imo i would work on rapport first before you try anything in nlp, it will become natural to you after a while. Although interesingly not all nlperes agree with mirroring atall and still get good results.
personally tho i think pacing etc is teh very core of nlp.

[Simple Guy]

[quote=Poodle]Rapport is the understanding and appreciation of another human being's model of the world and communicating that understanding and appreciation to them in such a way that trust is established.

Poodle,

This is an outstanding definition of rapport.

[welshguymikey]

i have to agree there

[cc_FF]

welshguymikey

re:" when you can feel what they feel and you can have a long conversation with most anyone you meet then imo you have completed basic training in rapport"

Rapport is the byproduct of pacing and leading someone and you can pace them in many ways. yet feeling what they feel and sustaining a long conversation is by no means a key indicator of rapport and is certainly not an indication of "basic training" in it. when someone has followed YOUR lead, you have rapport.

Jim

rapport is not the possession of one party in the conversation alone.
thx

[Poodle]

If you are reading Structure of Magic, Vol. I, read Chapter 4 backwards. That's the way it is supposed to be read. Interesting concept. Things are not what they seem.

If you get bummed out from people's problems, you probably should do something else to earn a living. This is what it's all about. Fixing people's problems.

[gettingbrighter]

If you are reading Structure of Magic, Vol. I, read Chapter 4 backwards. That's the way it is supposed to be read. Interesting concept. Things are not what they seem.

If you get bummed out from people's problems, you probably should do something else to earn a living. This is what it's all about. Fixing people's problems.

The Structure of Magic by Bandler & Grindler is next on my list after finishing Mind Lines and Frame Games by Michael Hall.

It appears I've got more knowledge building and discovery to do in NLP and Hypnotherapy before considering a private practice in helping others. I will be speaking also to some of collegues about this and listen to what they have to say as well. Maybe to speed my decision I'll review some of James Tad's Time Line Therapy to see how I'd feel choosing this path in the future right now. :)

I still feel I want to discover myself more before helping others to explore themselves. So yes I agree with you for now Poodle but I believe I'll be up for the challenge in the near future. :)

gettingbrighter

[Poodle]

Tad James!! You do know, of course, that he does live teaching. Yeppers, just look it up on the net. Quite a brilliant fellow. He has two excellent products which is his book on hypnotherapy and the tape set Deep Trance Phenomenon. Now, where would you rather learn Time Line Therapy -- through a book or with the person that invented it. Where do you think you would learn the most? One thing to consider is that he does unconscious installation. Cool, huh?

[Jimr1]

Tad James!! You do know, of course, that he does live teaching. Yeppers, just look it up on the net. Quite a brilliant fellow. He has two excellent products which is his book on hypnotherapy and the tape set Deep Trance Phenomenon. Now, where would you rather learn Time Line Therapy -- through a book or with the person that invented it. Where do you think you would learn the most? One thing to consider is that he does unconscious installation. Cool, huh?

Poodle,

respectfully, that's the second time on this forum you've claimed that Tad invented Time Line therapy. he may be the most aggressive promotor of it but he DID NOT invent it. and lots of trainers use unconscious installation

[Jimr1]

basic training, means perscisely that, basic, rapport must be gained before you can lead, if you cant hold a long conversation then you dont have rapport, if you dont have rapport you cant lead.
Im sure the poster of this thread knows about pacing, if not i appologise for not mentioning that.
And being able to feel what they feel is a key part to rapport imo
welsh,

true yet having a long conversation with someone doesn't neccesarily mean you have rapport with them. how many talk show hosts,for example interview their guests without having obtained even the slight hint of rapport?? Lots!

there are more accurate indicators of rapport than feeling what they feel.....like whether they follow when you lead!

Jim

[Poodle]

Tell him, not me. He has it trademarked so it must belong to him. Bandler uses timelines but in a totally different context and he does not refer to it as Time Line Therapy. Oh, I'm going to see him in a couple of months so I'll be sure to relay your message to him. Pood

[welshguymikey]

welsh,

true yet having a long conversation with someone doesn't neccesarily mean you have rapport with them. how many talk show hosts,for example interview their guests without having obtained even the slight hint of rapport?? Lots!

there are more accurate indicators of rapport than feeling what they feel.....like whether they follow when you lead!

Jim

i can see the point of leading definatly that i do not doubt, however, personally, i feel the best rapport is gained when you can feel what they feel.
For example i bet you can tell what your closest freinds are feeling even if you have no idea why they would be feeling like that.
IMO this is because you have very strong rapport with them, if you have other reasons as to why you might know how they feel and not as well in or by other people then please say id be interested to know another view point.

[Jimr1]

i can see the point of leading definatly that i do not doubt, however, personally, i feel the best rapport is gained when you can feel what they feel.
For example i bet you can tell what your closest freinds are feeling even if you have no idea why they would be feeling like that.
IMO this is because you have very strong rapport with them, if you have other reasons as to why you might know how they feel and not as well in or by other people then please say id be interested to know another view point.
welsch....

re:"i feel the best rapport is gained when you can feel what they feel"

you are welcome to continue to believe that but I doubt it would stand any testing or experimentation. shared feelings doesn't equal rapport. you can't pace and lead a "feeling"(you can anchor it but you can't pace and lead it). you can match/mirror any behavior, gesture, voice quality, and test to determine rapport by leading. yet ****most***** NLP trainers teach that rapport is acquired when someone follows your lead. the feeling both of you have is secondary.

re:"For example i bet you can tell what your closest freinds are feeling even if you have no idea why they would be feeling like that"

that's called mindreading in NLP yet has nothiing necessarily to do with being in rapport

Jim

[Jimr1]

Tell him, not me. He has it trademarked so it must belong to him. Bandler uses timelines but in a totally different context and he does not refer to it as Time Line Therapy. Oh, I'm going to see him in a couple of months so I'll be sure to relay your message to him. Pood
Pood,

respectfully, whether I choose to contact Tad about that isn't the point. I was letting YOU know. whether you choose to continue to make that claim is up to you yet I would wonder about someone who continued to make a claim that was inaccurate.

re:"He has it trademarked so it must belong to him".

since when has something being trademarked EVER meant the trademark owner invented the idea?

Jim

[welshguymikey]

you can't pace and lead a "feeling


your giving mixed messages here sorry, from what i can see either you have made a mistake in what you think rapport is or you worded it in such away that you are giving me the wrong message.
Pacing isnt rapport, pacing is being the most annoying person in the world if you do it wrong and a way of gaining rapport if you do it right.

also as for leading a feelign im not going agaisnt you here exactly, but if you think about it you can, with leading you change tonality of your voice, speed up get excited etc and they will do the same and feel the associated feelings to that response.



re:"For example i bet you can tell what your closest freinds are feeling even if you have no idea why they would be feeling like that"

that's called mindreading in NLP yet has nothiing necessarily to do with being in rapport

Jim

well i dont believe in mind reading and call it rapport:)
you will become more accustomed to your freinds body language than a strangers, therefore you instinctivly read their feelings to which you will respond in a similar/same way. If a freind is sad but not showing it to other people you will be sad. If a stranger is sad but trying to hide it you may not notice.
This is all on a subcouncious level.

nlp in my view has got a lot to do with inducing/recalling feeligns through words and actions.
if you cant tell how they are feeling how can you do nlp? yes you can ask them but isnt it better to and show a better rapport if you can feel what they feel because your subcouncious reads their body language.

the best examples are liers and when your drunk, if you are with agressive people you will generaly feel agressive. if you are with madly happy people then you will be generaly madly happy.

[nUnregistered]

your giving mixed messages here sorry, from what i can see either you have made a mistake in what you think rapport is or you worded it in such away that you are giving me the wrong message.
Pacing isnt rapport, pacing is being the most annoying person in the world if you do it wrong and a way of gaining rapport if you do it right.

also as for leading a feelign im not going agaisnt you here exactly, but if you think about it you can, with leading you change tonality of your voice, speed up get excited etc and they will do the same and feel the associated feelings to that response.




well i dont believe in mind reading and call it rapport:)
you will become more accustomed to your freinds body language than a strangers, therefore you instinctivly read their feelings to which you will respond in a similar/same way. If a freind is sad but not showing it to other people you will be sad. If a stranger is sad but trying to hide it you may not notice.
This is all on a subcouncious level.

nlp in my view has got a lot to do with inducing/recalling feeligns through words and actions.
if you cant tell how they are feeling how can you do nlp? yes you can ask them but isnt it better to and show a better rapport if you can feel what they feel because your subcouncious reads their body language.

the best examples are liers and when your drunk, if you are with agressive people you will generaly feel agressive. if you are with madly happy people then you will be generaly madly happy.

re:"Pacing isnt rapport, pacing is being the most annoying person in the world if you do it wrong and a way of gaining rapport if you do it right"

true....if you are crappy at pacing(for whatever reason)then someone probably won't follow your lead

re"you can, with leading you change tonality of your voice, speed up get excited etc and they will do the same and feel the associated feelings to that response"

you can pace them by matching their voice qualities with yours and lead by doing something differently tonally(amongst other leads) but that doesn't mean that you will be feeling the same as them.....nor does it mean you will be feeling different.

re:"well i dont believe in mind reading and call it rapport"

you don't have to believe it, yet that doesn't prevent it from happening

re:" nlp in my view has got a lot to do with inducing/recalling feeligns through words and actions"

aka state elicitation...........

re:"if you cant tell how they are feeling how can you do nlp?"

been doing it just fine for 18+ years-rapport is a phenomena in communication and represents an application of NLP, there much more which you'd find out in Training:)

your evidence procedure for rapport is having the same feeling as they do. my evidence procedure for rapport is if they follow my lead. for people who are primarily kinesthetic, you may do fine. for others, you may/probably have a lot of practicing to do.

Jim

[welshguymikey]

please make note that i never said i didnt lead. Just that i think being able to feel what they feel is a sign of deep rapport imo.

[Merlin]

Ummm....

While playing with the NLP concept of timelines, Tad James discovered something unique.
Tad experimented and developed the particular discovery further.
Tad named his unique discovery Time Line Therapy, to distinguish the difference between his work and just the NLP timeline methods.
Tad then trademarked Time line therapy with the US patent and trademark office
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=iqfslu.2.1

Working with timelines predates Tad.
Time line therapy (tm) is a unique methodology/discovery of Tad's.

[Merlin]

Jim,

You and the Poodle are talking of 2 different topics with similar names.

[Jimr1]

Jim,

You and the Poodle are talking of 2 different topics with similar names.

Merlin,

re"
While playing with the NLP concept of timelines, Tad James discovered something unique.
Tad experimented and developed the particular discovery further.
Tad named his unique discovery Time Line Therapy, to distinguish the difference between his work and just the NLP timeline methods.
Tad then trademarked Time line therapy with the US patent and trademark office
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=iqfslu.2.1 (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=iqfslu.2.1)

Working with timelines predates Tad".

thanks for the "research" yet its still the same topic and I think this is "splitting hairs". with respect to Poodle, I don't think he knew that Timelines predates Tad.

JIm

[pmdigi]

just for the record (unless i am mistaken) i think Poodle is a Lady and her name is Anne.