Is live NLP training REALLY better than books???

[Unreg]

I seem to keep hearing again & again, (from various sources), how important it is to get good NLP training, and how live training is SO much better than just reading NLP books/CDs/Vids etc.

However, I've met a couple of NLP practitioners who have skipped most of the reading etc, and just forked out fairly large sums of cash for NLP training, and emerged from the training disappointed, saying: "I thought I would be automatically changed into someone else", or "I thought all the skills would just be automatically available to me", kind of thing.

On the other hand, I've met a few people, who couldn't afford to do the Practioner training, but were highly motivated to learn and use NLP, and so got books etc through libraries & eBay, & dilligently leant the skills, and went out and practised them, and literally changed themselves through application of the intellectual NLP knowledge they had worked so hard to acquire, but without any formal/live NLP training whatsoever.

So is live NLP training really better than books/CD/Vid training?

Doesn't a heck of a lot depend on the sheer determination/motivation of the individual?

Sometimes poorer folk can be a lot more determined than richer folk, I've noticed.

Comments/Thoughts/Opinions?

[welshguymikey]

personally i agree with this, i think these training weeks are grosely over priced but then again so are hypnotherapy sessions imo.
i havent done a live training and dont intend to for financial reasons but believe that through my determination consisting of 5 years studying i am just as good as many other nlp's who took the live training and would challenge anyone who disagrees, the joy of nlp is there is alot that you can practice without people knowing so the whole nervouseness of it going wrong and looking stupid isn't there.
i do like watching recordings of live trainings tho, they are alot cheaper than going to one (if you look around) and are very useful.

[Unreg]

personally i agree with this, i think these training weeks are grosely over priced but then again so are hypnotherapy sessions imo.
i havent done a live training and dont intend to for financial reasons but believe that through my determination consisting of 5 years studying i am just as good as many other nlp's who took the live training and would challenge anyone who disagrees.....


I like your attitude!


i do like watching recordings of live trainings tho, they are alot cheaper than going to one (if you look around) and are very useful.

And they can be watched as many times as one likes, also sections can be rewound & repeated etc.

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[Don]

When I was very young, I struggled to learn how to ride a bicycle. Oh, I could do okay when the training wheels were on, but when they came off, it was a disaster. I still have some small scars from the times I fell. But I kept at it.

Little did I know, that my actually practicing bicycling while my mother or step-father watched, gave advice, and encouraged me, was giving me some sort of training. After a while, even without them giving me advice, I could go a wobbly short distance. Somehow, the information they gave me and the encouragement--and perhaps the love, too--infused me.

I don't know when it happened, but one day, I was a great bicycle rider. I no longer thought about moving the pedals, keeping my balance, looking where I was going, etc., I just did it.

I suppose I could have learned this skill from books, but sometimes I wonder. Would reading about how to move the pedals have been the same as getting on a bicycle with someone showing me what to do, guiding me, and encouraging me? Would I have become as good of a bicycle rider from reading books?

When I was in college I studied the famous "Method Acting" system. In one of the classic texts by its inventor (or discoverer), Stanislavski, he talks about "rays." Basically, if you experience the emotions of the character you are portraying, you will project "rays" to the audience and they will believe you. If you can't bring up the emotions being experienced by the character, the audience will never believe your portrayal.

Did my parents send out "rays" to me, encouraging my bicycle abilities? If so, what effect did that have on my abilities? Surely a book can't send out such "rays." I wonder, would something be missing?

Ha! If all I had to eat every day was bread, I would never miss full meals. I wouldn't know what I was missing and I could only comment based on bread. Now, bread is good, but it would be a shame never having a full meal...

[welshguymikey2]

good point but Not everyone works like that, i often learn better on my own than when guided, i dont like being guided or helped, i learnt to ride on my own and i learnt to swim on my own. I work by throwing my self into the deep end straight away so the every day task seems easier (that is quite literally how i learnt to swim, i threw my self into the deep end so i was forced to swim, admitadly i nearly drowned the first time but the second time i swam the full length).
But i bet i learnt to swim alot faster than you did with your wading in a little deeper everytime, i also used determination to learn to swim more effecivly myself and am a much better smimmer (except at butterfly) than everyone bar one person i know (he was 3rd fastest in the uk mind u and did beat me by a long shot)
my point is personal guidance isnt always the best thing for everyone.

simaly, i learnt to surf from books, i did practice ofcourse as i did with nlp but books were sufficent, i then went on to try lessons because my freinds wanted to and i found out that i was doing everythign perfectly well even tho i had taught myself from books.
No one can teach you how to ride a bike, you just had more confidense becasue your parents were encouraging you, i dont need the confidense of a proffesional to help me i have that confidense myself.

[Jimr1]

I seem to keep hearing again & again, (from various sources), how important it is to get good NLP training, and how live training is SO much better than just reading NLP books/CDs/Vids etc.

However, I've met a couple of NLP practitioners who have skipped most of the reading etc, and just forked out fairly large sums of cash for NLP training, and emerged from the training disappointed, saying: "I thought I would be automatically changed into someone else", or "I thought all the skills would just be automatically available to me", kind of thing.

On the other hand, I've met a few people, who couldn't afford to do the Practioner training, but were highly motivated to learn and use NLP, and so got books etc through libraries & eBay, & dilligently leant the skills, and went out and practised them, and literally changed themselves through application of the intellectual NLP knowledge they had worked so hard to acquire, but without any formal/live NLP training whatsoever.

So is live NLP training really better than books/CD/Vid training?

Doesn't a heck of a lot depend on the sheer determination/motivation of the individual?

Sometimes poorer folk can be a lot more determined than richer folk, I've noticed.

Comments/Thoughts/Opinions?
Unreg

only you can ultimately decide that Live training is better than books. you're always going to find a few people that were dissatisfied with live training particulary those who thought something was going to "automatically" happen. nothing automatically happens becuase training does require some c-o-n-s-c-i-o-u-s involvement(despite the claims by another poster in this forum that the skills get "downloaded" into your unconscious)

and you're going to find a few people who avoided live training(due to lack of $$$ or other resources) and got it from books. they are the exception not the rule

there is a s-i-g-n-i-f-i-c-a-n-t-l-y l-o-n-g-e-r learning curve in relying strictly on books, tapes, DVD,etc. becuase:
1) you have no trainer(or assistants) to correct you if you are doing it improperly after dividing into student groups to practice.
2)there is no enhanced learning environment designed to teach to both the consciuos and subconscious.
3)if the trainer is congruent and skillfull,then as a model, they are a first rate "live" reference point of how to do the skills as opposed to the instruction that can be "open to interpretation" in books

determination and motivation may make a difference in completing something like a triathalon, finishing medical school,or making it in a rock in roll band yet there is something to be said for training

[welshguymikey]

1) you have no trainer(or assistants) to correct you if you are doing it improperly after dividing into student groups to practice.
2)there is no enhanced learning environment designed to teach to both the consciuos and subconscious.
3)if the trainer is congruent and skillfull,then as a model, they are a first rate "live" reference point of how to do the skills as opposed to the instruction that can be "open to interpretation" in books


1) learning in all species is by trial and error, you can always have like minde people to discuss what you are doing rather tahn payign thouasands of pounds
2) this one i think is best left to discuss in private messaging or a new thread,
3) you do do nlp right? everything is down to interpretation, even colours dont exist they are just your interpretation, interpretations can be altered too im sure you know about the problems of language in court rooms if you do nlp. for example, one person sees a car crash now you have a choice of two questions:

1: at what speed was the red car traveling when it came into contact with the second car?

or

2: at what speed was the car travelling at when it crashed into the second car?

now tell me this, same person saw the one crash, now depending on whether you used the first question or the second question do you think he would give the same answer for both?
i can promise you if you used the first question they would give a slower speed, scientific tests have been carried out on this and actually the difference was somthing like 40mph in speeds of around 70mph


as for point number two, either set up a new thread or pm me, the point of discussion is what is counciousness and what is the subcouncious? do they even exist?

[Nemesis Rogue]

Welshy,

At the end of the day, it's all down to you. You will go your own path regardless. If yuo realy do not need vindication or validation then stop posting your comments and questions.

It's tough love but it's true.

Your fundamental flaw is that you are making your decision based NOT on fact but on circumstance. You have NO finances for "proper" training (combining distance learning + live training) and so you have chosen to believe that you can do it onthe cheap instead. That is not the thinking of the sensible individual. That is dangerous and reckless.

But hey, do it. Don't try and validate. Just do it and see where it gets you. However, I'd urge you not to be so blinkered in your appraoch. Whether you realise it or not (and I think you do) you are being forced down a certain course of action and now you're trying to rationalise the reasons for taking it.

However it's not true and I don't even believe it is congruent for you. Your Id (for those of a psychiatric perspective) is taking over. This is the "I must have!" child like approach that often overrides common sense. Salesmen love to pitch to it. You want it so bad but you won't wait, you waon't invest, you won't wait until you can give yourself your best chance of success.

I also seriously doubt your recollections of your friends who have done the various books and live seminars. I believe, mind reading though it is, that you are distorting the facts so as to once again vindicate and validate your course of action. But why would you do this? Here? Unless, as I suspect, it's to gain approval. But if you are SO convinced that you don't need training, that you don't need approval, that you have the skills and confidence then you wouldn't be doing this.

And this is why I am not convinced at all that you buy into what you say. I believe you LACK the conviction. You lack congruence. And that is why you are still here, harping on about NLP when you've had plenty of good advice in many posts. You just don't like what you've been told - numerous times - because it means it isn't a viable option for you right now. Either that, or you don't want it bad enough to make it a reality.

If that's the case, then it's ok. I was the same and have had to wait a full year before enrolling on my Master Prac (which I have just done). Just drop in your timeline and make SMART and GROW objectives. You should know by now, assuming you're over 8 years old, we can't always have what we want, when we want it.

Maybe some friends were diappointed. Maybe they over expected. Maybe they didn't commit as fully as they should. Maybe they just attended a poor course - probably run by some buy who only studied from books ;-)

But you know what, a book cannot answer questions. A book cannot gauge whether you understand what it's saying. A book cannot tell if you are implementing the techniques correctly. I can read a book on plumbing but it wouldn't make me a plumber. I can email you every Shukokai karate move I know (2nd degree black belt) and including instructions but it wouldn't make you a martial artist.

If books were all that were necessray - there would be no need for courses. There would be no need for medical schools. Think about it. For a minute.

At the end of the day, if you TRULY believe I am talking rubbish and that you DON'T need professional, respected, intensive, personal training then go and buy Bandler's back catalogue, stop whining and best of luck.

[welshguymikey]

i feel you are grosely misinterpreting what i am saying, i am not saying live training isnt good, i am however saying it can be done through books.
This forum is for discussions right? people give their view points? im reading other peoples viewpoints then showing it to them in another light no one is more correct than the other and i liek to see and discuss all view points, i liek ppl to challenge mine and i liek to challenge theirs, if you dont than your learnign in life will be very limited.
You think i am trying to validate that i am fine without live training? well ofcourse i am that is the whole point of this thread isnt it? to discuss if it works or not and as of yet i have not had anything that makes me certain live training is any better than learning from books.

i have done martialarts for 13 years under training but i know full well that a group of people could teach themselves from books even if an individual cant.
books or live training it dosent matter it all comes down to practice,trial and error.

[Terry (existing)]

Disregarding other arguments, I will reffer to the original post, and poster only. First of all, you obviously have a preconceived idea before you post, and I must therefor ask, why bother to post at all? Just a simple question, but one I would like to understand as a student of human nature. Secondly, it would seem you have met a lot of people who have learned NLP via different methods. This I find amazing since practitioners are almost non existant in many places, and rare in all the others. I know about a dozen, but then, I am in the business to some degree though retired. Finally, you point out that those who are highly motivated to learn do so, and do it well, while those who spend money but expect everytning to be put in their lap fail miserably. My question would be, are you surprised? I sure as hell am not, I hate idleness in any guise, since it always spells failure. Sadly however, in pointing out this truth, you have twisted it to your own ends, rather than let it stand alone. My point I suppose, is that you are not genuine in your quest, and I find that disapointing, since it demonstrates disdain for the readers, who in many cases live by the word. Your time could be put to better use doing what you want to do, since we have no prefference, not being involved in your future.

[Unreg]

Disregarding other arguments, I will reffer to the original post, and poster only. First of all, you obviously have a preconceived idea before you post,

Do I, 'obviously'?

and I must therefor ask, why bother to post at all?

Oh, I don't know, sometimes the internet seems like an interesting democratic kind of place, to hear others' Comments/Thoughts/Opinions

Secondly, it would seem you have met a lot of people who have learned NLP via different methods. This I find amazing....

A lot???

To be precise, I actually used the words "a couple" and "a few".

Finally, you point out that those who are highly motivated to learn do so, and do it well, while those who spend money but expect everytning to be put in their lap fail miserably. My question would be, are you surprised?

No, I suppose not.

I hate idleness in any guise, since it always spells failure.

Does it? Always?

Often, perhaps, but I'm not so sure about 'always'.

Sadly however, in pointing out this truth, you have twisted it to your own ends, rather than let it stand alone.

Have I? Oh. OK. I didn't know that.

My point I suppose, is that you are not genuine in your quest,

Am I not?

Comments/Thoughts/Opinions was my quest.

I felt I was being genuine, else I would not have posted, but maybe you know me better.

and I find that disapointing, since it demonstrates disdain for the readers, who in many cases live by the word.

In that case I apologise to all readers who 'live by the word', if they feel treated disdainfully by my, (apparently), not being 'genuine in my quest'......

Your time could be put to better use doing what you want to do, since we have no prefference, not being involved in your future.

All I wanted to do, in this instance, was to hear others' Comments/Thoughts/Opinions

And thus far I have.

Thank you.

[Unreg]

Suberb metaphors, and they hit home for me. Thanks.

I hear what you are saying, Don, but I also respect WelshGuy's viewpoints as well.

I'm glad I started this thread. The Comments/Thoughts/Opinions thus far are very interesting to me.

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[nUnregistered]

you can start a new thread about the conscious and subconcious, metaphysically if you want, but in practice)in the trainiing context, its recognized that trainers will need to teach to the concsious and subconsious and why Trainer's Training includes the utilization of both the 4mat method and nested loops

[skip]

You can learn a lot from books, tapes, etc.

And I recommend them both, before, and after, live training. (Oh I love the ambiguity in that sentence, dont you!)

But my experience has been that you simply cannot grasp the 'magic', the power, the artistry, the speed, without experiencing someone who is really skilled 'do their thing' live.

Now that may be a limitation of mine, that you dont have.

I read and studied three books before my first training. I worked at it, and practiced as best I could. And I knew a lot.

But my first live training blew my dress up soooooo high!

I had to reach a conclusion, no possible other explanation. Either this was a charlatin putting on a show with lots of shills working for him, or this was for real full tilt boogie, and waaaaayyy more powerful and effective and FAST than I could have ever imagined.

I doubt I would have ever developed to the level I have, without the live training.

I simply would never have realized that it could be actually done to the level it can.

And if nothing else, that alone is worth the price of admission.

If it is to a good trainers training.

skip

[Don]

I saw a few movie versions of Romeo and Juliet. I'm sure they spent lots of time doing retakes and getting the light just right. Damn, were those movies dumb!

Then I actually sat down and read the play. Damn, was it boring.

Then I saw it performed live by a troupe from London. It was exciting, passionate, exhilarating, and incredible.

Plays, IMO, are meant to be experienced LIVE. Sure, you can get the plot and see good actors if you read the play or see a movie of it, but it's just not the same. Not only that, but there is absolutely no way to know what you're missing unless you see the play!

[skip]

Oh you wanted a meadow muffin!

As he slowly kissed his way down the back side of her neck, she knew that things were going to change, that after this night she would never be the same. And she wanted it. As she felt her anticipation deepen, she began to feel a growing heat, a warmth spreading ...

Or you could do it live.

cheers,

skip

[Unreg]

You can learn a lot from books, tapes, etc.

And I recommend them both, before, and after, live training. (Oh I love the ambiguity in that sentence, dont you!)

It hangs on the word "live", doesn't it?

But my experience has been that you simply cannot grasp the 'magic', the power, the artistry, the speed, without experiencing someone who is really skilled 'do their thing' live.

I read and studied three books before my first training. I worked at it, and practiced as best I could. And I knew a lot.

But my first live training blew my dress up soooooo high!

I had to reach a conclusion, no possible other explanation. Either this was a charlatin putting on a show with lots of shills working for him, or this was for real full tilt boogie, and waaaaayyy more powerful and effective and FAST than I could have ever imagined.

I doubt I would have ever developed to the level I have, without the live training.

skip

You make your point very persuasively, and also believably, IMHO.

It's an interesting comparison thing going on here, re the comparison between live training and book/cd learning.

Whilst respectful (to the point of agreement) with Skip & Don & etc comments, perhaps I am also tuned in to what WelshGuy is saying, because of a strong awareness of the comparison between book/cd learning and no learning at all (re NLP) !

What I mean is, I personally still find it very bemusing to encounter so many people in life who have never had any NLP learning whatsoever, in fact who have never even heard of NLP, and the difference between how they structure language & how I structure language is sometimes striking, to say the least.

The extent to which this is noticeable is perhaps what makes me ponder sometimes "is live NLP training really better than books/CD/Vid training?", thus my posting of this thread for others' Comments/Thoughts/Opinions.

Like WelshGuy, I just wish I could afford all the live training. I'm sure it would be a great follow-on from the books, etc.

One of these days......

[Don]

I just wish I could afford all the live training.

There are people who work two jobs and go into debt that they can't pay off for years just to get a college education. There are people who go into debt for decades to buy a home.

If someone doesn't want to go to a live training, I can respect that--until they start implying that live training is unimportant.

Get a weekend job. Brown bag your lunch instead of going to Mickey Ds. Don't go to movies or clubs. Don't buy or rent CDs, DVDs, or Videogames. Don't get an iPod, XBox or PS2. Don't buy new clothes until your old ones wear out. Sell your car and get a bike. You'll be able to afford it in just a few months.

I'm sorry, but to all of the people who say "I can't afford it," I have to say, "baloney!" It depends upon how much you want it. If you want something enough you'll find a way to afford it.

[welshguymikey]

its not that easy for me, if i fork out 2500 pounds on somthing my mother dosent agree with then she will make me pay for all the stuff that she pays for equating in thousands more pounds yet again. (if your american double the figures to get dollars).
If i go into debt now i can kiss goodbye to my careerer as that costs me thousands as it is and at 19 i dont have hords of money.
I will be in 16 thousand debt roughly in about two years time, i dont want to add another 8 and a half thousand to that amount.

[Unreg]

There are people who work two jobs and go into debt that they can't pay off for years just to get a college education. There are people who go into debt for decades to buy a home.

That's true.

And I already have plenty of debt, myself.

Get a weekend job. Brown bag your lunch instead of going to Mickey Ds. Don't go to movies or clubs. Don't buy or rent CDs, DVDs, or Videogames. Don't get an iPod, XBox or PS2. Don't buy new clothes until your old ones wear out. Sell your car and get a bike.

I already do MOST of this. And I have no idea what an XBox or PS2 is. And I don't even drive, let alone own a car.

I'm sorry, but to all of the people who say "I can't afford it," I have to say, "baloney!"

Too simplistic, that. Everyone's circumstances are different. Sometimes VERY different.

It depends upon how much you want it. If you want something enough you'll find a way to afford it.

There's some truth to that, I agree.

I'm getting there, but it ain't easy.

I'm not whining, but for those in better circumstances to say: "to all of the people who say "I can't afford it," I have to say, "baloney!"" - is not particularly helpful, frankly.

One thing I can tell you for damn sure, when/if my circumstances ever improve, I will NEVER lash out at poorer folk like that.

When/if my circumstances ever improve, I will always remember previous poorer times, and have a certain amount of concurrent humility, never mind this "baloney" stuff.

You can say what you like. I'm not that offended. I expect other elitist NLPers & Hypnos will soon chip in and merrily agree with your 'baloney' talk. ( Come on, Terry, I know you're bursting to! <g> ). And why not. I suppose the view must be damn fine when you're sitting on a high horse. You might as well enjoy it whilst you are up there.

I can only speak for myself, and where I am at right now. And like I say, when/if my circumstances ever improve, I will always remember previous poorer times, and have a certain amount of concurrent humility.

Just my .02 Cents ( so to speak! )

Peace out.

[skip]

Welshguy and unreg,

I dont take Don's comments as lashing out. Nor do I percieve it as denigrating the 'downtrodden', er poor.

It is a complete difference, a distinction, of an attitude.

Forgive me, if you will, but I am going to use you two as examples because folks have just had the opportunity to understand both of your economic situations explained.

But first a short story. I once had a 'trainer' attempt to get me to go to a training in Las Vegas. He promised a lot for the $5,000 admission fee. He elicited some self doubts I had, and tried to use them to motivate me to make the trip. His justification for the 'investment' was that I would earn it back and more in mere weeks, as a result of the training.

I told him I couldnt afford it.

When really, I didnt believe the training was going to be worth it.

And I knew, and he knew, that I wasnt being honest with him at the time.

When you talk about training being expensive, or not having enough money, when you simultaneously stipulate that the training would be well worth it; it indicates (if we believe your being honest) a certain mentality.

I would call it an 'impoverished' mentality.

It is a mentality that cannot, or at least has great difficulty, in percieving potential. It focus' on current lack.

And that is a really terrible habit to get into. It is the mentality that our third and fourth generation welfare rewcipients have.

If you focus on current lack, and the inability to do anything because of it, you will always be impoverished, in your own mind, irregardless of how wealthy, or how much discretionary income, you have.

The poverty is in your mind.

Now Im not going to argue with either of you as to whether or not it is prudent, right this instant, for you to spend the dollars, irregardless of how much or little they are.

Sounds like it isnt prudent for you at this time. And there is no sin in recognizing that.

What I would take issue with, with both of you, is the mentality that your posts speak to me. A mentality of scarcity, a mentality of paucity, a mentality of poverty.

One which Don was addressing, and you mis-interpreted as him lashing out at the po' folk.

What is the difference between someone who thinks, "I dont have it and I'm not going to have it ...", and someone who thinks, "I am going to do this asap, and here is how I am going to accomplish it ..."?

Now maybe I have stated my case badly.

But I couldnt help but wonder, are you guys comming from a poverty mentality, as it seems to me, or are you simply really saying, you dont believe it is worth it?

Because the difference is very important to you, and it is best that you know, so consider your answer carefully.

Oh and in speaking about books and tapes, I remarked about the ambiguity in, "And I recommend them both, before, and after, live training."

Unreg asked: "It hangs on the word "live", doesn't it?"

I thought it hung on the word 'both', was it tapes vs books, or tapes and books vs live training, or before vs after?

cheers,

skip

[Unreg]

What I would take issue with, with both of you, is the mentality that your posts speak to me. A mentality of scarcity, a mentality of paucity, a mentality of poverty.

Are you guys comming from a poverty mentality, as it seems to me, or are you simply really saying, you dont believe it is worth it?

Because the difference is very important to you, and it is best that you know, so consider your answer carefully.




It's interesting the simplicity of choice you are offering, an "Either/Or" type of presup thing. Either it's "a poverty mentality" Or it's a "not worth it" thing.

If I must choose, (& I am fairly happy to), then I believe it's more of what you are calling "a poverty mentality", even though I don't FULLY grasp what you mean by this. (Feel free to explain further, if you care to.)



Oh and in speaking about books and tapes, I remarked about the ambiguity in, "And I recommend them both, before, and after, live training."

Unreg asked: "It hangs on the word "live", doesn't it?"

I thought it hung on the word 'both', was it tapes vs books, or tapes and books vs live training, or before vs after?



Oh, for me it was Phonological Ambiguity re "Live"/"Life".

But I now see the 'larger' ambiguity you were referring to. I think it's called 'Scope Ambiguity', is that right?

[parsa]

Meadow muffins????

Urban dictionary:
n.) feces deposited onto the ground by bovine animals. Also known as "cow flop". In a dried state, meadow muffins become "cow chips" which can be used...


Recipe Sources:
Stir together the dry ingredients to mix well. Add buttermilk, mixing just
to blend and let stand for 20 minutes to soften...

[Terry (existing)]

Well, I could easily sympathise with your problems, but each time I start to do so, I am reminded of the millions of people starving to death, and the comparison becomes ridiculous. Sorry sonny, but fact is your education is of value to you, and must be paid for. This might of course include training in hypnosis, but you could well do without it, so save your money by all means. On the other hand, complaining that you can't afford everything you wish for seems a little redundant, and asking us to lie to you so that you can feel better is not in the cards and an insult to us. See, fact is hands on training is, and will always be a nescessity in training someone to work with the public in a therapy setting, medical setting, or dental setting, and to say otherwise would not alter that fact. Now you can like it or not, it is of no concern to us. We are responsible for what we say, and you are responsible for how you take it....Don said it his way, Skip said it his way, and now you get a third opinion, and not one agrees with your concept of truth. Do you suppose you are fooling yourself?

[skip]

Uuuuummmmmmm!

Add blueberries!

skip

[skip]

I hardly forced you into an either/or.

I indicated that it might not be prudent at this time. And that leaves a LOT of wiggle room.

My main purpose was to get you to examine whether or not you are using a 'poverty mentality' and if you are, to simply be aware of its pitfalls.

What you do from that point is of course your choice.

I rather thought of it (when I did think of it, which was during proof reading), as an unspecified referential.

Which may expose my ignorance about what unspecified referentials mean. :)

skip

[Don]

Unreg, I wasn't lashing out at poorer folks.

If someone doesn't have the money and can't afford a Porsche, they can get a VW. If they can't afford a VW they can get a Kia. If they can't afford a Kia they can get a used car. I know wonderful folks at all levels of finances who do the best they can.

But they don't yell at others saying, "How dare you make the Porsche so expensive. I'll get a used Yugo. It's just as good. I refuse to save my money for a Porsche. I refuse to get another job so I can afford a Porsche.

Do you understand the difference? If somebody wants something badly enough, they'll find a way to get it. If they don't want it badly enough they won't get it. I have no problem with either.

The people who would find offense at what I posted are only those who not only don't have the money, but don't have the desire or willingness to earn the money and are virtually demanding that people who have scrimped and saved and worked should simply give everything to them.

The fact is, if you don't want it enough to work for it, you probably aren't going to make much use of it anyhow.

So no, I'm not attacking poor people at all. I'm just standing up to whiners.

[Unreg]

My main purpose was to get you to examine whether or not you are using a 'poverty mentality' and if you are, to simply be aware of its pitfalls.


OK, you succeeded in this.

'Poverty Mentality', to my ears at least, is a strong phrase. I've heard it bandied around in the higher ecehelons of NLP before, and wondered about it.

I mentioned it to a friend recently, who knows little about NLP, but quite a lot about business. His immediate reaction was "That's a phrase straight out of the sneaky salesman book. When they are trying to sell you a shiny new car, they'll say something like 'Oh, it's not that you can't afford this car, it's just you have an impoverished mentality about it, because you don't recognise it's true value'. Which is all well and good, until you find you can't pay your house rent any more, and then have to go & live in your shiny new car!"

I don't believe this is true of you, Skip, and I told my friend as much. I know you're not trying to sell me anything, but instead rattle my 'model of the world' a bit.

Fine, you've succeeded.

Although, as I said in an earlier post, I don't FULLY grasp what you mean by 'Poverty Mentality'. (Feel free to explain further, if you care to. (But if not, I'm happy to let it go, and thank you for your responses thus far))

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[Unreg]

Well, I could easily sympathise with your problems, but each time I start to do so, I am reminded of the millions of people starving to death, and the comparison becomes ridiculous. Sorry sonny, but fact is your education is of value to you, and must be paid for. This might of course include training in hypnosis, but you could well do without it, so save your money by all means. On the other hand, complaining that you can't afford everything you wish for seems a little redundant, and asking us to lie to you so that you can feel better is not in the cards and an insult to us. See, fact is hands on training is, and will always be a nescessity in training someone to work with the public in a therapy setting, medical setting, or dental setting, and to say otherwise would not alter that fact. Now you can like it or not, it is of no concern to us. We are responsible for what we say, and you are responsible for how you take it....Don said it his way, Skip said it his way, and now you get a third opinion, and not one agrees with your concept of truth. Do you suppose you are fooling yourself?

I am aware enough of everything you say, not least "the millions of people starving to death". Everyone on these forums is incredibly lucky to not be one of those millions, and instead to have the luxury of self-hypnosis/NLP etc etc etc, at whatever level each of us may individually be at.

Do you suppose you are fooling yourself?

Probably.

A cage becomes a horribly familiar place, alas.

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[Unreg]

Unreg, I wasn't lashing out at poorer folks.

OK, maybe I was unwise in using the phrase 'lashing out'


If someone doesn't have the money and can't afford a Porsche, they can get a VW. If they can't afford a VW they can get a Kia. If they can't afford a Kia they can get a used car. I know wonderful folks at all levels of finances who do the best they can.

Yup, that makes sense.

But they don't yell at others saying, "How dare you make the Porsche so expensive. I'll get a used Yugo. It's just as good. I refuse to save my money for a Porsche. I refuse to get another job so I can afford a Porsche.

Do you understand the difference? If somebody wants something badly enough, they'll find a way to get it. If they don't want it badly enough they won't get it. I have no problem with either.

The people who would find offense at what I posted are only those who not only don't have the money, but don't have the desire or willingness to earn the money and are virtually demanding that people who have scrimped and saved and worked should simply give everything to them.

The fact is, if you don't want it enough to work for it, you probably aren't going to make much use of it anyhow.

Everything you've written above makes sense to me.


So no, I'm not attacking poor people at all.

OK.

I'm just standing up to whiners.

I hope I don't seem like a whiner.

I feel more like a struggler, at the moment, than a whiner.

Like I'm at the lowest level of a mountain, and looking up, thinking how the heck am I ever going to get all the way up there?

I am full of self-doubt, and worry.

But I ain't quitting yet.

BTW, I'd love to hear some stories from you seniors re how you got to where you are. What struggles did you encounter along the way? How did you get to where you are? What were the easy parts? What were the difficult parts? What were the most satisfying parts? What surprised you? What didn't? Etc, etc.

I would guess quite a few might be inspired by what you have to say, if you care to share.

[welshguymikey]

is it just me or has the interpretation of this thread changed alot? the thread was not really about money, that was just a side note. People willign to save up or whatever has nothing to do with it.
The real issue was can you learn from books and imo you can with practice.

[skip]

'Poverty Mentality'

Depends on the context certainly.

And I have no doubt that it might be described in the 'sneaky salesmans book', (assuming there is one) but appearing there, doesnt mean it isnt valid. or doesnt apply.

It just means that the best salesmen understand it, and can explain how it applys, when it does. Otherwise telling someone they have an impoverished mentality, is likely to be interpreted as being told they are retarded. Not a lot of sales get closed with that tactic.

Not long ago, someone wrote here and asked about overcomming shyness. They said they didnt have any friends, and wanted to know that when they overcame shyness, what should they say when people ask them about their other friends.

Notice what was going on in their brain. They could assume they were going to make the change they wanted, but that conceptualization did not include the certainty that everything would also change as a result.

They assumed the change would occurr, but that it would be independant of the rest of their life.

So they saw themselves as having the change and still stuck in the same social behavioral pattern.

He couldnt take into account that everything would change, including his way of thinking. With confidence, he wouldnt be concerned at all about this question, even.

"Poverty mentality', "Im poor (impoverished) and no matter what I do I am still poor (impoverished)."

Again I am going to use you and or Welsguymikey as an example. And I do it with the full understanding that I dont know your situation, and recognize that 'not shelling out now' may very well be the most prudent decision for either of you.

The basic point seemed to be, "I recognize that there is something out there that can be of beifit but I cannot afford it. I have other responsibilities." And descriptions were made to verify the 'other responsibilities'.

It asumes that nothing will change, by doing whatever it is that is being contemplated.

Now if neither of you anticipate doing therapy professionally, then it would seem as if that is a valid argument. I dont have enough money and if I took the training, my income would stiill be the same. So no I cant afford it.

It doesnt take into account how your life is likely to change in all the other areas either enhancing your income or reducing current expenses or both. It doesnt take into account that you might make some modification now, that could result in you aquiring enough money.

It seemed as if your perception was stuck on, this is the way it is and it is immutable.

hope that helps,

skip

[Unreg]

is it just me or has the interpretation of this thread changed alot? the thread was not really about money, that was just a side note.

Dude, respectfully, in your very first posting in this thread, and in only the second posting of this entire thread itself, it was you yourself that seemed to emphasise financial issues :

.......i think these training weeks are grosely over priced.........i havent done a live training and dont intend to for financial reasons..........i do like watching recordings of live trainings tho, they are a lot cheaper.......

[Unreg]

'Poverty Mentality'..............etc...........hope that helps.


It does help, thanks. I appreciate your response. The shyness story was wonderful, BTW, really made me smile. ( I seem to respond really well to stories, of late. http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

I've enjoyed having my cage rattled in this thread.

Thanks for all the responses, it's been interesting. I'm saving this thread to disk.

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[welshguymikey2]

Dude, respectfully, in your very first posting in this thread, and in only the second posting of this entire thread itself, it was you yourself that seemed to emphasise financial issues :

i wasnt stating that finances wernt an issue atall just this thread is getting more and more towards money and forgetting the true nature of the thread, im not saying im not partly to blame for the change in direction of the thread, but it is turning into bickering rather than a discussion on whether you can learn from books or not and i was just trying to divert the attention back to books and live trainings quickly.

[cc_FF]

If someone doesn't have the money and can't afford a Porsche, they can get a VW. If they can't afford a VW they can get a Kia. If they can't afford a Kia they can get a used car. I know wonderful folks at all levels of finances who

A porsche and a kia can both get you from a to b - what's the point of this metaphor - that there are more stylish ways to get from a to b? Surely that's not really important? Wouldn't it be arriving at b that's important? - a porsche might get you there quicker, true - but then there are speed limits and traffic lights, and nice things in shop windows, and gasoline, insurance, tax... well, what is the best way to b? the bus takes 15 minutes. If b is quality training (arriving at being quality trained) then the car metaphor won't really do.

How important are the contents of metaphors?

[welshguymikey2]

well put cc_ff , thats the point im trying to make but starting to get lost in this thread.
As ive said it takes practice to learn nlp, if you dont have live training then it may take a little more practice thats all.
or in cc_ff way of saying it, A porche may reach the finish line in 3 minutes but a vw will still make it there just maybe not as quickly.

[Don]

Taking a quote--or a metaphor--out of context can be made to prove anything.

For example, if you take the first part of my quote, yep, it would make you think about everything you posted.

But if you paid attention to the entire quote, you'd see something entirely different:

"If someone doesn't have the money and can't afford a Porsche, they can get a VW. If they can't afford a VW they can get a Kia. If they can't afford a Kia they can get a used car. I know wonderful folks at all levels of finances who do the best they can.

"But they don't yell at others saying, "How dare you make the Porsche so expensive. I'll get a used Yugo. It's just as good. I refuse to save my money for a Porsche. I refuse to get another job so I can afford a Porsche.

"Do you understand the difference? If somebody wants something badly enough, they'll find a way to get it. If they don't want it badly enough they won't get it. I have no problem with either."

The metaphor is clearly explained in the last paragraph. It has nothing to do with being stylish. It has nothing to do with getting to point B faster or the best way to get there.

It clearly has to do with focusing on the wants, needs, and desires of a person, and the simple fact that if a person wants something enough they'll figure out how to get it. It was about the point that I was not attacking people at any financial level, but rather saying that I am not interested in hearing whining from those who don't want something enough to work for it and complain that they can't have the same thing as all those people who actually want something and work for it.

The contents of metaphors are important--that's why you have to read or hear the entire metaphor.

[skip]

I think you forgot about the quality of the drive, in favor arriving at the destination.

I can walk down the stairs. I can slide down bumping my ass on each step.

Both get me down the stairs.

One would IMO be better than the other, lets say, "More comfortable.".

So not just getting there but getting there more comfortably, more efficently, more elegantly, is also of value.

skip

[cc_FF]

I think you forgot about the quality of the drive, in favor arriving at the destination.

I can walk down the stairs. I can slide down bumping my ass on each step.

Both get me down the stairs.

One would IMO be better than the other, lets say, "More comfortable.".

So not just getting there but getting there more comfortably, more efficently, more elegantly, is also of value.

skip

fair enough, although would a really good teacher really be the 'more comfortable' option? I've had teachers who didn't challenge me too much, they were the comfortable option, but I sure as hell learned a lot more from the teachers who plucked out my pubes while i was massaging my penial gland during attempts to bring together what I couldn't yet grasp hold of.

;)

[skip]

Well if thats what you need.

[Jimr1]

well put cc_ff , thats the point im trying to make but starting to get lost in this thread.
As ive said it takes practice to learn nlp, if you dont have live training then it may take a little more practice thats all.
or in cc_ff way of saying it, A porche may reach the finish line in 3 minutes but a vw will still make it there just maybe not as quickly.
Welshguymikey

if it were just a question of speed...

noone would seek out mentors

if you don't want the quality and any kind of practice will do, then live t raining isn't for you

JIm

[Don]

I think the real problem here is the basic premise of this entire thread: is live training "better" than books.

No. It is not better. It is different. It depends upon what you want.

If you want to know about NLP, read books.
If you want to be able to work with a few concepts of NLP, read books
If this is the level of NLP you want, then it would be a waste of money to take trainings. So in this case, just reading books would be "better."

If you want NLP concepts installed in you so you can bring them up almost automatically, go to training.
If you want to fully understand all aspects of NLP, get trained.
If this is what you want, training would be "better."

I guess the truth is, neither is "better," they are simply different. The only way you could qualify one as better than the other is to determine what you want to achieve and go for what will get you closest to that goal.

[cc_FF]

The only way you could qualify one as better than the other is to determine what you want to achieve and go for what will get you closest to that goal.

That there the man expounding some wisdom. Kudos.

[cc_FF]

Well if thats what you need.

and everything of value you learn? Easy? Comfortable? Really? I dare say you can pass it on in comfortably, how about acquiring it?

[Poodle]

Even after the live trainings we still read and listen to CD's. The desire for MORE is always there until we have finished Trainer's Training and then maybe we'll still be doing more reading and more listening to CD's. I doubt I ever stop learning as every person in this world is different. It just gets more interesting and more interesting. Maybe we could do like Terry does and do research later on.

It all depends on what YOU want NOW! If you want it badly enough, you will find the money.

[Nemesis Rogue]

If you want it badly enough, you will find the money.

This is SO true. Be it the universe coming to your aid, your tenacity and will power to be resourceful.......I don't know.

All I know is, it's true.

[Unreg]

Interestingly, since my last post in this thread, my finances have taken a noticeable shift in a positive direction, as a result of some action I took that I didn't particularly expect to yield results (from previous experience), but I very much wanted it to, and it did.

[Nemesis Rogue]

Great!
I've always wanted a conservatory ;)

[Unreg]

Great!
I've always wanted a conservatory ;)

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