View Full Version : What Do You Do when the Fast Phobia Cure Doesn't Work... ?
MrDigital
03-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Last Wednesday I posted up some audio from the author of the book 'Provocative Hypnosis' Jorgen Rasmussen on my website. If you've not yet listened to it you can do so by sending me a PM and i'll give you a link...
Tomorrow I will be recording another interview with Jorgen based on the NLP Pattern The Fast Phobia Cure...
Questions:
1 What is your experience in working 1 to 1 with clients that have phobias and what has been your success rate % with the F.P.C?
2 What are some of the pitfalls you have encountered and what did you do to get the change your client desired if the F.P.C failed?
The intention for selecting this particular pattern is that RB pretty much mentions it in all his books and it's quite a universal in the NLP communities with great scope for discussion imo.
Now, it will be great to hear success stories and I welcome them wholeheartedly whilst also asking for open accounts of where it just did not work... Especially when trainers at the seminars you went to could demonstrate the patterning so elegantly but you just couldn't seem to get the same results outside the training arena...
I would also invite Forum members to post any specific questions within the frame of this topic as the next audio will be available on Wednesday and you can influence the content of the audio by posting up your thoughts on here...
Looking forwards to hearing questions, comments, successes & Outright failiures http://www.nlpconnections.com/images/smilies/applause.gif
Wayne
Poodle
03-01-2010, 12:18 PM
keeps track of people he has used the FPC on. We have proof it works solidly for 25 years now on everyone he has used it on.
It does not always resolve with the running of the 'last' first time. Sometimes that needs to be repeated until totally absolutely positively 100% sure it's gone and then it's always nice to have client comfortably confront whatever was the phobia after it is now gone and then again over the years.
This, to me, is the easy part of NLP. Follow the directions.
I have never had one fail yet and I don't know of anyone that has. It also works on other issues other than 'phobias'. I know you well know what one of them is because it was well discussed on another forum. There was one very slight deviation in Grinder's methodology and it still turned out perfectly, of course. :cool:
Pood
MrDigital
03-01-2010, 03:02 PM
keeps track of people he has used the FPC on. We have proof it works solidly for 25 years now on everyone he has used it on.
It does not always resolve with the running of the 'last' first time. Sometimes that needs to be repeated until totally absolutely positively 100% sure it's gone and then it's always nice to have client comfortably confront whatever was the phobia after it is now gone and then again over the years.
This, to me, is the easy part of NLP. Follow the directions.
I have never had one fail yet and I don't know of anyone that has. It also works on other issues other than 'phobias'. I know you well know what one of them is because it was well discussed on another forum. There was one very slight deviation in Grinder's methodology and it still turned out perfectly, of course. :cool:
Pood
Forgive me but what proof specifically do you have to say that its worked for 25yrs?
I am curious because it contradicts my current knowledge base... I know of people who Bandler/Grinder have run the process and it has 'failed'... But in saying that it is third party info because people do not generally question the trainers at seminars they just expect miracles to happen...
What I'm interested in is (well) based on Andreas claims I will be contacting him for sure... But it's certainly not my experience and some of my associates...
So you have never had one fail and don't know anyone that has... And I have had them fail and do know people that has...
I see a very interesting topic emerging where we can learn a lot together...
MrDigital
Wayne,
100% success.
Two reasons.
1. I make sure what I use it on is appropriate.
2. I am relentless.
3. I check my work.
Now a question for you.
What is the purpose of your question? It matters little what my success rate is for your practice. What matters is your success rate.
There is no magic bullet. There is no 100% guarantee, nor even a 10% guarantee.
The gun might be broken, it might not be loaded, the ammunition might be faulty, your aim might be off, the guy might have a vest, ... yadda yadda yadda.
So what are you really trying to learn by asking the question?
skip
MrDigital
03-02-2010, 11:45 AM
I agree on your 3 x steps... As that very much describes my attitude... And you have a high level of skill as do many...
The purpose of the question is to create a dialogue polar to most of the dialogues found in the books... So many people buying books and trying the techniques only to post on forums that they don't work and to be rightly told to seek training... Cos it's not (IMO) about the pattern/ritual etc...
Because I think personally for people who have studied and trained to certain levels and have put the pieces together the FPC is just part of the greater whole and 'flexibility' in the process is what gets long term results...
So my intentions/purpose... is to ask questions that are not generally asked in open forums and hopefully create a dialogue where people (myself included) can learn and improve their success rates for the clients...
In order to... backtrack through my training and add to the knowledge I already have with a view to stacking the understanding and gaining insights from people...
In order to... You know... what i'm really willing to learn is anything that will help me forge my future in becoming one of the most flexibility oriented NLP delivering, walkin talking passionately dedicating NLPers on this planet... :cool:
And all of this for the purpose of... Working with and collaborating with the leaders of the field... by Sponsoring Jorgen Rasmussen & Dr Christina Hall in the UK and promoting them in a way that gives people... value rather than just shove sales and marketing in peoples faces for the sake of getting bums on seats with no regard for the end user...
Apart from that... I want to learn how to create posts that genuinely offer a point of discussion without people thinking this is just marketing techniques... Hopefully the audios will prove their worth and I get chance to offer them in the spirit they are intended...
So what are you really trying to learn by asking the question?
How to offer value in what i'm doing with reciprocal feedback that enables me to improve constantly?
Wayne
Docresults
03-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Apart from that... I want to learn how to create posts that genuinely offer a point of discussion without people thinking this is just marketing techniques... Hopefully the audios will prove their worth and I get chance to offer them in the spirit they are intended...
How to offer value in what i'm doing with reciprocal feedback that enables me to improve constantly?
Wayne
Wayne,
How do you think you are doing toward your outcomes?
And specifically in this instance based on the responses you have received and based on your admittance that it isn't the pattern where the issue sits what would be a more useful direction or question to move toward constant improvement?
To Your Best,
Doc Houston
Poodle
03-02-2010, 07:10 PM
BACK T0 BASICS -- Does one use the word 'fail' or even 'bad' in NLP. Go back please to NLP101A. WE HAVE FEEDBACK. Negativity in NLP only exists in one area of The Milton Model that I'm aware of, doesn't it.
I highly suspect that Dr. G. would give you a fast language lesson.
Stay well~Pood
MrDigital
03-03-2010, 02:09 PM
Wayne,
How do you think you are doing toward your outcomes?
I am making progress beyond my initial expectations... And I believe, I have friends in high places...
And specifically in this instance based on the responses you have received and based on your admittance that it isn't the pattern where the issue sits what would be a more useful direction or question to move toward constant improvement?
Specifically being more specific in the example I produced as a discussion point... By encompassing perceived skill levels and incorporating that into my thinking... How specifically...?
Paying due dilligence to the meaning of my communication... (pattern detection switched on) Chunk down inserted here... In the words of Arnold "i'll be back"...
To your constant input in guiding me to be the best...
Wayne
Docresults
03-04-2010, 10:35 AM
I am making progress beyond my initial expectations... And I believe, I have friends in high places...
Specifically being more specific in the example I produced as a discussion point... By encompassing perceived skill levels and incorporating that into my thinking... How specifically...?
Paying due dilligence to the meaning of my communication... (pattern detection switched on) Chunk down inserted here... In the words of Arnold "i'll be back"...
To your constant input in guiding me to be the best...
Wayne
Wayne,
IF you were to look at this structurally from a process POV does it raise your curiosity in regards to what is it that allows the pattern to work for certain people every time they use it and for others it is inconsistent?
What is the difference structurally/process-wise between the two types of individuals? Even deeper structurally whats the difference between the identity of the two types? Would not learning and modeling that have a profound effect on your outcomes?
To Your Best,
Doc Houston
MrDigital
03-05-2010, 02:36 PM
As always I have accommodated the post and will be assimilating the responding...
Soon so that I know I have answered in the moment according to how I am presently thinking...
Amazing how much you can get from a forum if you just set your mind to do so...
Wayne
Poodle
03-09-2010, 09:07 AM
Since when do we have the words 'fail' or 'failure' in NLP. If one has not seen or experienced this themself personally wherein the pattern did not work we doubt the veracify and secondly, the skillset of the supposed Practitioner. We do have what is known as feedback in NLP. The pattern itself is PERFECTION. Only human error on the part of the practitioner could cause any type of problem with it. Are all NLPers created equal? NO! Some desire on-line training and thereby missing most of what NLP really is. Certain ones slept through class and others played during class.
Connie used the magic word skilled NLP Practitioner.
I believe the above to be the point of Skip's post; however, it was ignored because failure was being sought instead of success.
Pood :pood:
MrDigital
03-09-2010, 02:31 PM
I think some people 'need' to keep going back to 'basics' to get a grasp on what is being talked about...
Call it what you like my dear friend.... Failing/Not working/****ing up...
Sometimes things don't work... We **** up... and... AND... it's OK to admit it... Not just (IN NLP) ??? What is NLP anyway...
Now I like to admit my 'failiures' YES I call them failiures... cos to me my successes are sometimes so dam boring... and I don't care much for hooting on about how good I am... It's not wher my students tend to get the best results... Even though i'm pretty good at successing :eek:
I tend to find that people respect the fact that i'm not this infallable robot that can just wave a magic wand and can admit to being human...
I think 'Bandler' would say if you wave a magic wand and it doesn't work then Freaking hit them with it... With me?
Or without me... At least some dialogue is being created... And if you want to hear the interview then PM me...
Wayne
P.S Thinking Logical Levels here POODLE... You said "since when do we have the words 'fail' or 'failiure' in NLP"...???? So in my thinking that NLP as a larger level chunk these things don't exist at lower levels??? BULL_S IMO... Do you want Dr Grinders e-mail? He encourages us to FAIL or MAKE MISTAKES or whatever you choose to label them... Cos he thinks success can become boring too... For crying out loud (every pattern is perfection) please explain perfection here in this context...? I'm baffled... Did B & G set out with filters of "there's no such thing as fail"... Maybe cos failiure was part of the process... The larger WHOLE...
Another ... Map is not the territory ... springs to mind here...
I have noticed plenty of people that don't just sleep in class for sure...
And if your intention was to provoke then brilliant... If it was to educate then i'm sorry but I think you should GET A LIVE TRAINING...
Time to get provocative methinks before the AUTHORITIES on NLP start taking us blasphemers from one BOX to another...
MrD,
"What do you do when the Fast Phobia Cure doesnt work?"
Why would you elect to use a technique or pattern that wasnt going to work?
Does a baseball player select a bat that wont hit a ball?
skip
MrDigital
03-10-2010, 03:04 AM
How do you know a pattern won't work unless you try it yourself?
With Intent...
And congruence...
Also, the thing for me here that relates specifically to the FPC is the NLPers 'calibration skills' because working at process you will notice if the FPC isn't working like you said using the wrong bat so to speak...
And that's where the new discoveries dwell as an NLPer... If you have a working Hypothesis that for example a client is demonstrating a phobia and you run the textbook FPC and it doesn't work... What next...
Well i'm pretty sure what you would do and I'm certain what I would do after testing the pattern and getting results... But what about newly fledged practitioners taught text book patterning and demonstrated in seminar contexts where trainers select the participant that's most suitable for the job... i.e strong VK... Great for the trainer - great for the demo - a little one sided for the Practitioner that goes out into the world believeing just run this pattern it has a 100% success rate - then BANG...
Flat on their face... And some thinking... "it must be me :eek: NLP patterns are 100% successful :rolleyes:and I can't even get to run it, and in NLP there is no Failiure only feedback"... So what the xxxxx do I do now"???
Do people dig in and muster up resources to do things differently?
Or do they take their practitioner certificates put them in the bottom drawer whilst feelings of being let down by themselves empower their bodies?
I prefer the former and I think we can start by going back to BASICS from time to time and re-emphasising / discussing what some of these useful lies are...
And through being able to laugh at our own failings/mis-takes/**** ups yada yada we can raise the bar in a field so diluted with BS claims... That to me is where the learning really gets amped up (for all)...
And i did convince someone to buy a badminton racket one day to play me at squash... and I lost... I blame it on my constantly covertly chuckling whilst he strived to not be beaten because it's not something he does... So I guess sometimes it's good to see the effect a different way of hitting things has...
MrD
Because I know the pattern works.
Period.
Full Stop.
Now the only question is can you elicit and or the client perform the requisite skills in order to be able to "do" the pattern.
Can they dissassociate? Well of course they can, every one can. Can you teach them if they believe they cannot?
Can they visualize? Of course they can everyone can.
For all the requisite skills necessary to 'perform' the pattern. Recall an event, associate, disassociate, construct a fantasy, Etc... Etc...Etc
And then the final question, "Am I applying the correct remedie?" The fast phobia cure works great but it doesnt fix a problem where skills arent available in the required context, for example. Even when 'applied' with intent and congruence.
Answer the above questions, in the affirmative, and you know the pattern is going to work.
First time, every time. No failure possible.
The technique never fails.
Neither does the client.
"If you have a working Hypothesis that for example a client is demonstrating a phobia and you run the textbook FPC and it doesn't work... What next..."
What next indeed. Best change your 'working hypothesis'.
The patterns arent clubs in a golf bag. You dont pull out the FPC when in a sand trap, and if that doesnt work just switch to the "Collapse Anchors Driver'.
There is a huge difference between learning a bunch of paterns, with which you assail the citidel called the 'presenting problem',and learning NLP or therapy.
I used to think, "If someone had just written down all the patterns ..."
**** the patterns. They are crutches!
Learn to do your work without using a single one first. Then you are allowed to use patterns, if you still so desire.
Did that help?
skip
MrDigital
03-10-2010, 12:54 PM
Did it help... Of course it did... I'm in on the ride...
My question is does it help others... I think so...
And you have touched on my point... The FPC is a powerful technique but in omongst itself with no other skills to boot... Pretty much could lead a person down the garden path into thinking it doesn't cos sometimes it just doesn't...
Until you have all the other little bits of NLP technology that turns the part into a whole...
It's not about the patterns they are just ways of training people to focus their attention whilst they get the other stuff...
Its the other stuff i'm talking about... :o
And ensuring that it's taught to people so that they get the desired results 100% of the time No matter what...
MrD
Connie
03-10-2010, 07:10 PM
Hi! I thought I'd pop into this discussion! :)
It works. Fabulously well. I'm in the midst of conducting a Licensed Practitioner of NLP (tm) training, and every one of my students had success with it as well--first day they learned it. It's so easy. And so powerful. I use it all the time with clients (everything from fear of spiders, fear of heights, fear of the wind, fear of deep water, fear of overripe bananas, fear of elevators, fear of flying, and more...), and blended with language and other conversational hypnosis fun things and other "formal NLP" processes.
It works when you follow it precisely. And it works when you get creative with it. It works.
Tomorrow I have an arachniphobic coming in, and I'll use it again.
When it "doesn't work," then you do something else. Fear is so unnecessary, when there's NLP around.
Poodle
03-11-2010, 05:53 PM
Thank you for the post above. We have a new Prac on this site and the new Prac seems to me to be driven to use a very specific pattern like the FPC, on everything possible. i.e., if the client has anxiety, we pull out the 'anxiety pattern', yada yada yada. Your post should take care of a lot of that type of thinking.
I'm sure the message will go in this time!
Thanks~Pood :)
MrDigital
03-13-2010, 01:18 PM
Can you disclose whom specifically you are stating that Skips post will do something for...
Really curious... :rolleyes:
MrD
Merlin
03-17-2010, 10:39 AM
Did it help... Of course it did... I'm in on the ride...
My question is does it help others... I think so...
And you have touched on my point... The FPC is a powerful technique but in omongst itself with no other skills to boot... Pretty much could lead a person down the garden path into thinking it doesn't cos sometimes it just doesn't...
Until you have all the other little bits of NLP technology that turns the part into a whole...
It's not about the patterns they are just ways of training people to focus their attention whilst they get the other stuff...
Its the other stuff i'm talking about... :o
And ensuring that it's taught to people so that they get the desired results 100% of the time No matter what...
MrD
Mr D,
i have a hammer,
the hammer works, every time
when i use it on a screw, well is it really failure?
or just feedback that i selected an inappropriate tool for the particular job?
Poodle
03-17-2010, 08:06 PM
I bought some VERY LARGE house numbers. Instructions say to drill in xx hole and then use drill to screw in screws which hold the number to the surface.
I am definitely planning on ignoring the instructions as I'm quite sure they will go in nicely with just an every day hammer. I'll let all know how it went. Success or feedback.
Connie
03-17-2010, 08:50 PM
i have a hammer,
the hammer works, every time
when i use it on a screw, well is it really failure?
or just feedback that i selected an inappropriate tool for the particular job?
Magnificently said. :)
MrDigital
03-18-2010, 03:31 PM
Girl you'd never forgive yourself...
And if the instructions tell you to use a drill bit to screw the screw then I can understand why you are not going to use them...
Although hammering the screw in will certainly produce some interesting results...
Tell you what though...
If you walk round with a hammer... You'll find nails...
MrD
Poodle
05-18-2010, 08:25 PM
ROFL! The hammer worked perfectly as I knew it would. However a tiny black screw landed on the ground - in the grass or in the black rock around the house. Impossible to see. Had to buy another number, any number, as I just wanted one tiny little black screw. When it stops raining I'll make my zero 'straight'.
So, Wayne, with your comment -- If I walk around with my drill I'll find screws. WOW!! That would save me $12 if I found the lost one, that is.
Stay well my friend~Pood :D
Your zero isnt straight?
Arent zeros round by definition?
0
Hummmm just checking.
And having a non straight zero, wouldn't that be the desired outcome?
"Non straight zero."
Redundant!!!!
Seems if you had a straight zero, that would be something to be concerned about.
Or not.
skip
Poodle
05-19-2010, 06:43 PM
It's only -- slanted --- except back slanted instead of forward slanted but again that changes two with the direction of the wind or rain and possibly at some point in time NOw or YESterday may bee even it is totally correct for awhile but I kNOw NOt when that while is as it's outside where zeros re-side and I'm inside, waaay deep inside. ;)
Pood :pood:
AH! It gives your house charactar then!
Is that not...too...desirable?
Phonological and phrase ambiguities intended. ;-0
skip
MrDigital
05-21-2010, 04:38 PM
I think I have a phobia... Of...
People that overly 'identify' with being the expert, the all knowing ones... And when I get that impression I get into a BIG panic... because at some level they may know more than others (what specifically i'm unsure)... but at another level I think that If they go out in the world projecting themselves as the 'expert' or the 'one who knows'...
What do they project onto their paying customers or people seeking advice on forums or people who genuinely want to contribute?
Could it be for example 'You have come to me cos you are weak' or 'the one who doesn't know'... I am your saviour and if you question me or my techniques then I will tell you in no uncertain words that 'YOU' have a problem...
I am a moderator therefore insert garbage here...
How on earth does that serve anyone?
Awaiting... Nuff said... Period... And other remarks that keep this site limited...
Too much wasted talent on here IMO and the homeostasis is getting pretty boring from the chosen ones...
Awaiting my banishment from the hierarchy :)
Wayne
Poodle
05-21-2010, 07:32 PM
If you have a problem with what Skip writes, I highly suggest you take two steps back and learn. He has been in the NLP world for a very, very long time and so has DocResults. Perhaps you notice they are more 'Bandlerized' than 'Grinderized'; however, that should present little problem for you. Personally, I would LOVE to take a training from Skip and I would still LOVE to have a training from the person he originally learned from.
I hope I never reach the point where I 'think' I know it all and refuse to learn from those that have gone before me. That will be the day I quit or die. I personally know both of the Moderators and I personally know they live what they write and teach what they live. I am very proud to call both of them "MY FRIEND".
You are welcome to do as you wish. I like this site and I like the fact that Dr. Matt James keeps it just so we can spread the truth about our chosen fields. There is too much misinformation in the world.
In the Bandler camp we are encouraged to always succeed as that means we know NLP and can use whatever pieces to do whatever we want at a chosen moment. We do not encourage failure in our students.
Have a great weekend~Pood :pood:
Connie
05-21-2010, 08:01 PM
This site is "limited?" Wow! News to me! I guess I don't see limits anymore, anywhere...and that includes this site. Certainly not limits on people who are free to talk about what we all love, and information being shared. I have learned SO MUCH from SO MANY kind, knowledgable, insightful, generous people here.
How are you feeling limited? I know some great Nelpers who could help you with that!
MrDigital
05-22-2010, 02:45 AM
Dear Poodle and Connie et al...
That post isn't directed at Skip... Cut mind-reading from a few words...
It's a general thread aimed at 'so called experts' who overly identify with the label...
And in the same breath it's directed at skip as much as it's directed at you or anyone... Not because 'I have a problem with that' like connie suggests 'how am I feeling limited'... A typical example of people on forums thinking they are the experts, pre-supposing in comments limitations...
Poodle writes: in the Bandler camp we are encouraged to always succeed... Start a thread about that statement and i'll put my two penneth in for sure...
I don't need to blow smoke up peoples arses to respect them or find wisdom in their words... I'm actually extremely successfull at that... And I reckon if your challenged do you fight back without listening to the challenge or take two steps back whilst you consider your methods of response...
So please don't tell me what I already do without firstly doing it yourself...
As skip once said to me in a post a loooooong time ago...
You don't know if i wrote it in extreme rage or with a twinkle in my eye... You only think you know... You know?
And that's part of the point but not all... The other part is... I want to learn more and when i'm challenged I take the challenge and find out what I can learn...
I value this forum and I don't think I need to repeat the amount of learnings I've got from it, and the people on here... I'd like to see more action though so let's ruffle some feathers :)
MrD
"People that overly 'identify' with being the expert, the all knowing ones... And when I get that impression I get into a BIG panic... because at some level they may know more than others (what specifically i'm unsure)... but at another level I think that If they go out in the world projecting themselves as the 'expert' or the 'one who knows'...
What do they project onto their paying customers or people seeking advice on forums or people who genuinely want to contribute?
Could it be for example 'You have come to me cos you are weak' or 'the one who doesn't know'... I am your saviour and if you question me or my techniques then I will tell you in no uncertain words that 'YOU' have a problem...
I am a moderator therefore insert garbage here..."
MrD,
I have a suspicion that is a mind read.
What evidence do you have that it is not?
However it is possible that your sensory acuity is accurate ...
In that case what will you do as a result, and how do you expect it will lead to your desired outcome?
"I'd like to see more action though so let's ruffle some feathers."
Requires having feathers to ruffle, does it not?
I presume that the 'more action' you speak of is more postings about a variety of subjects, many touching on the leading edges of this field. An interesting knowelegable, virlie dialogue...
Did I somehow delete all the threads you have intitated that do exactly that?
And while I can agree that 'ruffleing feathers' can lead to 'more action'. Will it be the sort of 'action' that is desirable for you or the forum?
So in a true NLP tradition, that of 'if something doesnt work, try something else, anytrhing else...'
Why dont you state in positive, verifiable, terms what your outcome is. Then try a few postings, including 'ruffling feathers', and see what is leading to the desired outcome.
In other words, instead of saying, "I dont like your behavior, you should change it.", which we do get a lot of around here, from various people, who dont want to take responsibility for themselves ...
Why dont you walk your talk? You are a trained NLPer, set your outcome and go for it.
Or not.
skip
BTW if you want to be a moderator, I suggest you petition Matt. You might be surprised at how quickly you might become one. I'd be careful what I ask for though, it isnt a hat I believe you would like wearing right now.
Connie
05-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Some of us have feathers, but they don't ruffle easily. :) So, perhaps trying to "ruffle feathers" isn't the best tactic for your outcome. I, too, would love to hear your desired outcome and see what steps you take moving towards it.
As far as my use of the word "limited," I was echoing you. I don't perceive the limits you're mentioning, so I was questing for more information. :)
MrDigital
05-23-2010, 06:34 AM
MrD,
I have a suspicion that is a mind read.
What evidence do you have that it is not?
However it is possible that your sensory acuity is accurate ...
In that case what will you do as a result, and how do you expect it will lead to your desired outcome?
Yep a mind read and yep certainly possible... What will I be doing as a result? That's already in the process... I noticed (mind read) that what I seemed to be doing from time to time was accepting gracefully the opinions of others but not challenging them or my own assumptions about whether they had any validity in the world... This has been invaluable to me in the sense that even reading books has taken a new level of learning for me in a variety of different ways because I go out and test the assumptions in daily life...
One of my assumptions was that there is an element of 'role projection' going on in the NLP community and therefore some NLP trainers maybe overly identifying with the role of being 'the expert' or 'the one who knows'. Now I know that you know there's a difference between an expert and someone who is overly identified as being an expert... And I'm extremely curious as the NLP field is developing and people talk about their gurus for example - Bandler as if he is GOD himself...
My assumption is that they are projecting a role out to another person - something in their own neurology that they perceive as outside themselves... Fascinating... And a thread in it's own right...
Back to your comments on well formed outcomes etc... I have been collaborating with people in the field for quite a while now and have regular communication with people like Christina Hall, John Grinder, Jorgen Rasmussen (who introduced me to the role projection stuff)... I respect them mostly for their humbleness and campassion for others...
And I realised I had some assumptions about this forum and the way it is managed and the people that dedicate their time on here... So I decided to test them... To challenge like I was challenged at times and gauge the responses - to see if people walked their talk to see if I could cut through the BS without talking too much BS myself...
BTW if you want to be a moderator, I suggest you petition Matt. You might be surprised at how quickly you might become one. I'd be careful what I ask for though, it isnt a hat I believe you would like wearing right now.
I have my own forum but I use it for specific groups for pre-training (get to know each other stuff) and post training for (follow ups on demos so delegates can test in experience)... I moderate that but have had some ideas about a meta-forum with like minded people who work together to share, grow and expand their thinking... Often cutting to the chase but with a common intention of learning from each other with total respect and common interest of each others well-being, development and growth..
Now, believe it or not one of my outcomes has just been met... What threads can be started that will appeal to the regular contributors where all get to learn something of value...
One of the outcomes I must admit I used to have was how can I get Merlin to respond at length instead of just a few words... That changed because now I don't even get a response http://www.hypnosisforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
So yeah I'm constantly changing my style and writing in certain tones but I never intend to offend, hurt or make personal attacks.
(Unless with a client then I'd do whatever it took for them to get their desired result - even if it meant them hating me for it)
All in the name of learning...
Nuff Said http://www.hypnosisforum.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
"One of the outcomes I must admit I used to have was how can I get Merlin to respond at length instead of just a few words... That changed because now I don't even get a response"
LOL!
So you changed your outcome or your approach?
Just curious as either is valid. I often change my outcome as I get closer to it, sometimes abandon one altogether because something more attractive comes along.
I know lots of people who tried to get Merlin to do what they want. Invarably I have found that Merlin does as she wants.
Out of curiousity what specifically is your objection to people admiring others? You speak of the dieification of Bandler. I ask, "So what?"
Do you think it is unique to NLP?
Or do think it might be more a manifestation of the human condition and something we can observe in virtually every field (as do I)?
And if you dont like it, do you think you could bring about a change, or would you be Don Q to my Sancho? "If he says it is a dragon I suggest you agree!"
skip
MrDigital
05-23-2010, 08:19 AM
As I said I'm exploring some assumptions that I've been trying on for size and fit and will test them accordingly.
I'm not trying to get Merlin to do what I want (am i) :D although she does give words of wisdom that i'd like to hear more of... Maybe I made another ASSumption that I wasn't consciously aware of - until now...
I will feedback to you more when I've digested what you've wrote and given it the thought it deserves...
MrD
"I'm not trying to get Merlin to do what I want (am i)..."
Then you were trying to get her to do what you didn't want? (post short messages)
Sounds to me as if you were successful then, eh?
No need to digest, I respect you enough to be blunt.
You are saying there are things you don't like. Deifying individuals, people taking on airs, people not responding in posts as you want, people not posting the type threads you would like to see, etc ...
I am not making a judgment about the validity of your sensory acuity. Nor am I making a judgment about your conclusions.
I am simply acknowledging that you are dissatisfied.
I am merely asking you to consider leaving behind the 'they are doing this and the they should do that instead, and consider that all of it, is your response to something people are doing.
And you have a choice if you wish to be at cause.
You can change your response (easy). Or you can change the way they are responding (more complex and perhaps more fun although 'shamefully' manipulative).
Might I suggest you give Karen Prior's book "Don't Shoot The Dog" a look. One of the best NLP books on the market, and she doesn't know a thing (formally) about NLP.
cheers,
skip
MrDigital
05-23-2010, 12:34 PM
That's done and dusted...
I am just finishing strangers to ourselves at the minute... Captivating...
Don't you just love the written word?
And seeking out those deep rooted unconscious patterns so instead of looking 'through them' you get a chance to look 'at them'..
Graciously accepted and warmly appreciated.
MrD
MrDigital
05-24-2010, 04:58 PM
You are saying there are things you don't like. Deifying individuals, people taking on airs, people not responding in posts as you want, people not posting the type threads you would like to see, etc ...
Deifying individuals= Its something I identified and decided to explore... Especially as I've never been one for authority...
I am not making a judgment about the validity of your sensory acuity. Nor am I making a judgment about your conclusions.
But you are pre-supposing they are conclusions which they were not. Let's call them a workin hypothesis...
I am simply acknowledging that you are dissatisfied.
Maybe with myself at not getting my thoughts across in the manner in which they were intended. And ah see the light - i think...
I am merely asking you to consider leaving behind the 'they are doing this and the they should do that instead, and consider that all of it, is your response to something people are doing.
I made my posts specifically ambigious... But never made them personal... I was aiming for a different response in line with my intention. Which was exploring identity in relation to role projection. I.E People that overly identify with their perceived self and project that role to others...
And you have a choice if you wish to be at cause.
I'm not sure whether you are reminding me of that or assuming that I wasn't?
I Got a pattern that's surfaced though and i'm intriging my-self-ing... Now I have the ability to look 'at it' I'll report what I find.
Speak Soon
MrD
Poodle
05-24-2010, 08:14 PM
You are saying there are things you don't like. Deifying individuals,
okay - that's your model of the world. Connie and I are very, very happy to be working under Dr. Richard Bandler's name. It makes all trainings easier for students. There are numerous things that are mandated that we teach and then we are allowed to pick and choose what we personally really like that may not be included in the mandate. Websites are gone over letter by letter and approved or changed. It actually took me one year to get the NLP part of my site completely Bandler approved so when anyone looking to study NLP sees Dr. Bandler's name and seals they are well assured that they will receive the best and that all material is up to date and approved by Dr. Bandler. When he does something new, we have to learn it and be able to teach it correctly. We also believe that students learn more and better with conscious/unconscious learning. That is the same learning that Skip and DocResults had. I mentioned to Skip one time I was writing my textbook. His comment, of course, was WHY? Why indeed. Just some paper for someone to fall back on at some future time IF not properly installed. We usually find ourselves doing NLP without having to actually consciously think back to a training as it's in there. We have to allow the access.
Some people put Tony Robbins on that pedistal. Personally, I'd like to take his place at some point in time and give the audience a 'vegetable phobia' for a few weeks. That's part of the 'FUN' with NLP - it's just as easy to give as to remove.
I also totally believe that everyone in the NLP world should personally study with the 'inventors of NLP' at some point in time while we are still lucky enough to have them around.
When is the last time Dr. Grinder had a training in the USA?
There is a young man from Mexico, Gabe, I'm sure you know who he is. He is absolutely the essence of NLP IMO. He has also translated all books into Spanish. He works a lot and I mean a lot as he does trainings throughout South America besides his own in Mexico and generally he has Richard to a special training where different and unusual things in NLP are taught.
My feathers don't ruffle much anymore. I've learned when it is appropriate for ME to engage as there isn't much sense in entering a pissing contest.
Stay well~Pood :pood:
I'll only make one nit pik with your response.
"But you are pre-supposing they are conclusions which they were not. Let's call them a workin hypothesis..."
To come to a hypothesis, requires that you make judgments and draw conclusions from those judgments (such as, "They are deifying ...").
It may not be a definitive conclusion, a certainty, or as you say 'working hypothesis', but it is a conclusion none the less. And the the tone or at least the context in which you pointed this out, indicated disapproval. Which IMO requires a conclusion based on the belief that your working hypothesis is accurate.
Understand, I'm not faulting the conclusion. In fact I believe some people do deify others.
Quite a number of people have at one time or another placed others on a pedestal. And most certainly in an NLP crowd, Bandler would be included. In fact if I recall correctly you pointed out that it seemed to be very prevalent in NLP circles.
And that is the conclusion I was asking you to revisit.
I would completely agree that in some cases it is harmful. In other cases it causes people to strive to greater and greater heights, which in my view isnt harmful. It is something that almost goes hand in hand with 'deep trance identification' or 'modeling' in the sense that it is very easy to do when completely identifying with someone. Especially when the person is admired not just for the singular skill one is acquiring.
AND you are forgetting the very real possibility (IMO in NLP a certainty) that these people are responding to anchors deliberately set up by the individual which makes it easier for that individual to teach from an 'authority' position. And yes that can certainly be used for ill purposes, as well as good.
I recall, in a movie, a colonel telling a private, "All I ask is that my soldiers respond as if every word I utter comes directly from the mouth of God."
But enough of that, suffice to say, deification, hero worship, whatever you call it; occurs. It seems to be, as I stated earlier, part of the human condition. It is certainly part of the early learning process.
skip
ps So how is the 'getting more detailed discussion' working for you now? Sometimes all you have to do is ask. Right Merlin?
Connie
05-25-2010, 09:35 AM
Hi! As far as a "learning deification" state of mind in regards to teachers, those don't last. I've run that cycle myself a few times. It doesn't last, in general. Unless you're learning from someone like Dr. Bandler. :) I sure don't see myself lowering my estimation of his excellence. Ever. Or my gratitude for how NLP (which he co-originated) has improved my life.
In a world of falsehood and hype, when someone is what I call "the goods," then it's certainly appropriate to recognize that. I haven't met anyone else as talented as Dr. Bandler, only people who repackage his ideas and work and also receive that deification. If other creative geniuses of his caliber are out there, I'd love to meet them, and learn from them as well.