How? What? When?

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi,

Picking up on my thread about submodalities, Bandler blew me awya by treating agoraphobia, anticipatory loss and fear of authority figures with NLP (and simple submodalities by the looks of things).

I never would have known this was possible and as a result, woudl not know NLP could help or how. I realise there may be numerous NLP methods to treat the same problem but what I learnt on the Practitioner course only seems useful for instilling/removing positive/negative states: the various anchoring techniques, visual techniques, SWISH pattern etc.

I've heard of NLP being used for diseases, sleeping problems etc but I just can't see how and therein lies my problem!

I have a friend who wanted to feel confident. I took him through various visualisation exercises, asked him to remember being confident and tried to anchor it. he struggled with this as he hasn't often been confident. He also says he struggles to visualise (so I asked him to use one of his other senses instead). Eventually, I managed to anchor it and fire it but apart from getting him to press the anchor, what more could I have done for a deeper, longer lasting effect?

Also, in MIA, Bandler told a client who wanted to be confident, "confidence is a boring feeling as far as I'm concerned." I'm not Bandler, I'd like to help but does he know something I don't with regards to confidence?

[Nemesis Rogue]

what I learnt on the Practitioner course only seems useful for instilling/removing positive/negative states: the various anchoring techniques, visual techniques, SWISH pattern etc.

I know this can be very powerful and is the crux of solving all problems but what I meant was I only feel competent for very minor changes. I don't feel any more powerful than a chapter in a self help book. Why pay me when a self help book costs a fraction?

Eg: on the course this is what we did:
anchoring: joy, confidence, sadness (general emotions)
collapsing anchors: negative thoughts about people/situations
chaining anchors: procrastination, agitation, annoyance

Submodality change work: simple likes to dislikes. Nothing major like spiders or the dark.

SWISH: Reframing bad experiences - like a boss shouting at you.

See, I don't feel like I have an arsenal of awesome power yet my instructors keep telling me I have all the tools I need to start practicing. I was there a week and was doing the pre course work but feel like I could teach anyone all I know in under 45 minutes and they'd be just as good as me.

I bought more resource material but even that gets me lost! I was doing well with MIA until about chapter 3 and I couldn't follow where he was going with it.

[Merlin]

Addition and subtraction are wonderful tools.
With them you can make change for a purchase.
So, you are equipped for many jobs.
It's not calculus though.
Some jobs need higher math.

It's the same with NLP.
after a practitioner training you are equipped for many things, but there are many things you cannot yet do.

This is why higher training is available.

[Nemesis Rogue]

Good point. And one I thought of. Whjen I went back to my instructors,they were adamant that though more learning is good, that it's not necessary to start.

If I take your point, then I won't know what I can do and I'd be turning away most client requests unless they fall under the general scope I described, correct?

[Merlin]

>If I take your point, then I won't know what I can do and I'd be turning away most client requests unless they fall under the general scope I described, correct?

It would seem so.

> Whjen I went back to my instructors,they were adamant that though more learning is good, that it's not necessary to start.

I cannot answer for your instructors :(

[Nemesis Rogue]

Thx for your response. At least now I know not to bother until I ahve the opportunity to complete the Master Prac. Damn instructors.

[Merlin]

If you want to work in the field, assess what you can do and advertise for that only.
Don't claim to be a GP.
Specialise.
Maybe phobias?

[Poodle]

You do have the basic skills within which to work and solve many problems. Could very well be that your skills were unconsciously installed and that is why you are feeling somewhat "lacking". Give it time. It will dawn upon you as you use those skills in your personal life without even realizing it.

Do as Merlin suggested if you want to practice doing what you know how to do. You will find the Master Prac. Level even better and Trainer's Training is a dream I am sure will soon become a reality for me.

In NLP there are "Levels of Learning"
1. Unconscious incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence

To get from 1 to 2 -- take a NLP class
2-3 takes Learning (NLP class and life)
3-4 takes Practice

You will never be a NLP Practitioner unless you PRACTICE so please proceed to level 4 and practice what you do know. There are lots of things you can do! Go do them!! Stop miering yourself in negative, limiting beliefs. You know better than that!

When you go on to the Master Prac. level, of course, you will be given more skills but isn't it a crying shame to waste those that you already have?

[Nemesis Rogue]

.

You will never be a NLP Practitioner unless you PRACTICE so please proceed to level 4 and practice what you do know. There are lots of things you can do! Go do them!! Stop miering yourself in negative, limiting beliefs. You know better than that!

When you go on to the Master Prac. level, of course, you will be given more skills but isn't it a crying shame to waste those that you already have?

Absolutely Poodle! Practice is essential and is what builds the confidence and the experience. Without miring myself anymore, the problem is that I can't practice without charging people for my services yet I don't feel comfortable because I feel consciously incompetent. I tried on family with mixed results so that knocked my confidence too.

And another thing, even if I did start to practice low level stuff, I'd be stuck there unless I ventured deeper and that is the crux: going beyond what I feel comfortable with.

Here are some examples of why my confidence is shot

1) a friend of mine lacks confidence so I ran through some visualisation exercises, got him to remember being confident, to see it, feel it etc and then anchor it. I also got him to see his ideal self and to step into him and fell, see, hear what it's like to be the ideal him.

The anchoring didn't last and he couldn't picture too well his ideal self.

2) Another friend, with similar problems, coldn't visualise or make pictures. I said of course you can. You know what your car looks like, your front door, yuo can describe your place of work to me, so you can visualise. But he still couldn't do the exercise. I asked him to visualise (or see, feel) a ring of power and to build on it. But again, no can do.

Now if either of these had happened with a paying client, I'd be panicking and with both examples above, I did try other approaches but to no availl.

[Don]

Hi, NR.

Well, I'm not an NLP prac, but I would like to respond from a hypnotherapist's point of view. My comments are only based on what you posted, and as such--because there is other information I might not be aware of--could be incomplete.

1) From your post, I see absolutely not indication that either friend really cared about changing their behavior. They had nothing to gain (from their point of view) so no reason to allow the changes to manifest and remain.

2) They both were friends. Their attitude toward you was as a friend and they did not approach you as an expert in your field who could really help them, so they just played along for a bit, sort of like going with you to a movie they didn't want to see simply because you were a friend and you wanted to see it.

If this is accurate, I would respectfully suggest two solutions.

1) Spend some time explaining how there is an aspect to you that they don't know about and how you have become an expert in helping people. Explain some of the background of NLP and how it has helped millions of people. Tell them about your certification, your studies, and how you are qualified. In short, get them for a few moments to stop thinking of you as a friend and start thinking of you as a professional NLP practitioner.

2) Make sure they want to change. Perhaps there is a secondary gain to maintaining their current states. Perhaps they are simply afraid of change. Get them excited about the possibility of improvement.

There is a myth that practice makes perfect. You have learned the truth. Practice not only does not make perfect, it can be destructive and have negative effects. The truth is that only perfect practice makes perfect.

The good news, however, is that, from what you presented, it sounds to me like you're not a "failure" at all. Rather, you just need a bit of information to change things around. Specifically, make people see you as an expert and make sure they want to change and are excited about the possibility of change.

With a paying client, they already want to change and wouldn't be coming to you if they didn't think you were an expert. With your skills, the chances are you would be successful with paying clients while not so successful with unpaying friends who don't see you as an expert and may not really want to change.

Get it? Got it? Good!

[Merlin]

When anchoring doesn't last, there are usually other issues you didn't catch to change.

Did you future pace?

Only about 40% of us are consciously aware of our pictures.
Sure they are there, be just don't know it.
Often, the client can just pretend they are doing it and the subconscious will go along and do the work.

[Merlin]

>
With a paying client, they already want to change and wouldn't be coming to you if they didn't think you were an expert. With your skills, the chances are you would be successful with paying clients while not so successful with unpaying friends who don't see you as an expert and may not really want to change.

I would only add that the rate charged will make a difference.
£10 doesn't motivate one to get change as much as £500.
Most people won't spend £500 on a wasteful whim. At £500 they really want to change.
Did your friends want change enough to pay you £500?
If not, the change wasn't very important to them.

[Nemesis Rogue]

Don/Merlin,

Thanks. Your feedback made excellent sense.

[Poodle]

You said you learned submodalities -- just look at how much you can change by changing those submodalities. Friends will probably not consider you to be an expert even after you have proven yourself to be. Family is always family until we totally blow them away with what we can do! NLP is VERY powerful. Use it well and wisely!

I cannot understand why your instructors do not want you to proceed to MP. Practice what you have now and then go get that MP training.

Have you listened to The Personal Enhancement Series by Bandler? He uses a lot of submodality changes in it and it is quite good, at least IMHO but there's no reason you can't change those submodalities as well and fast as he can. Maybe by listening to the series you will get a feeling of how powerful submodalities really are or as we like to call them "metamodalities". You have anchoring, submodalities and the Swish. You can do many, many things.

Remember, one of the whole ideas behind NLP is "proper" thinking. If you continually think you cannot, well you won't. But if you go forth with a total air of confidence and magically make things happen you will be a great NLPer.

Maybe you could advertise a "Get To Know Me Sale" and offer a reduced price for two weeks. Then do as Merlin suggests. That is one reason I do keep my prices high. My appointment book stays full.

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi Poodle,

It's not that they don't want me to do MP, they just said I don't need it to start practicing.

When I did submodalities, we only did minor changes, and told they're not permanent so we did things like making chocolate repulse us instead of entice us. You mention Bandler, it wasn't until I read MIA that I realised how powerful they are and the scale of issues that can be dealt with them. Blew me away! And that's been the crux of my issue, I've not known just what I can do with the NLP skills I have. I've decided not to limit myself with this line of thinking anymore. I will find the Personal Enhancement series, thanks.

BTW, why called them metamodalities?

Great advice, but what did you mean by "that is one reason I do keep my prices high. My appointment book stays full"?

Thx

PS: Do you not think that a "get to know me" sale would send out the signal that I'm new and not competent? After all, how many would rush out to a half price brain surgeon

:-)

[Merlin]

Nemesis,

Another question would be which submodalities did you change?
Were they appropriately significant for the person you worked with?

[lanepierce]

Hi Nemesis:

Having read the whole thread, you got a lot of good advice, especially about working with friends, family and people who are not vested in their change. Here is what I would like to most impress upon you. It is the idea of "perception is projection". If you trained with us then you got this lesson and I would suggest to you to begin using it. If not, then let me simplify...

Perception is projection says that you take all of your unresolved "stuff" and project it out into your world around you. This gives you the ability to identify it and resolve it.

What I am reading in your emails is a lack of confidence in yourself. You are projecting that onto your "demo subjects" and therefore they have doubt about the procedure and your ability to do it.

Isn't that great! The universe has a feedback mechanism to help you get better and better. You DO have the tools. You DO need to begin using them. You need to get your head in the place of BEING excellent at what you do.

Milton Erickson said, "The client will not actualize what the hypnotherapist does not believe to be true."

All the best,

[Poodle]

The "sale" would only last a week or two -- long enough to get your name out in the public eye and allow you to do some networking, open house or whatever. People like to think they are getting a bargain. Build up expectation! Getting a hypnotherapist well trained in the newest and most innovative methodologies, TLT Worker and NLP Practitioner for $125 per session this week only. BOOK YOUR APPOINTMENT NOW. Next week price RETURNS to $250.00/session price (or whatever you want to charge.) Some people charge by the hour like $100/hour and $xx for every additional 10 minute increment.

Now, as to price -- reread Merlin's reply.

I keep the prices high so the client doesn't slack off. They are 50% of this equation. If they have a good chunk of money invested they have even greater motivation to succeed.

Do remember, you can't help anyone unless you KNOW you can. You have been given the tools necessary -- hypnosis, NLP and TLT.

When an instructor at APU replies with advice, read the post 10 times!!

And finally, enjoy, thoroughly enjoy listening to the Master using submodalities. As to why they probably should have been called meta you will find out later in training if you think enough about it. Sure enough the person that told me this was right. :D

[lanepierce]

Oh by the way Nemesis... It seems to me that you are quite visual in your processing. At least you use a lot of visual predicates in your instructions to your client. Let me suggest you subsitiute the word "imagine" for "visualize". It is non-directive and has a nice effect for the client. You see, everyone can imagine. :rolleyes:

All the best,

[Nemesis Rogue]

Lane, Poodle, merlin and co.

Thanks for your help.

You are right, confidence in me is my issue and the feedback thus far hasn't helped. I am also one of those who needs to know everything and not knowing so is making me edgy - I'm not used to it!

Just when I think I'm ready - up pops another scenario I can't imagine how to deal with.

I have a few more questions please and I think if I get the answers, I will be as ready as I'll ever be.

1) Fear of elevators and biting nails are just two that sprung to mind today. Any ideas what routes to down regards to these?

I mean, I know self limiting beliefs can be dealt with by TLT, confidence can be done by anchoring states, negativity by collapsing anchors and so I have some roads open to me but I'm not sure about elevators and nail biting etc. Not knowing what can be done, what intervention, what process to use is what strikes me with fear.

2) And would you always meta model every client to find the root cause(s) or are there times you accept what they are saying and go straight into the interventions?

3) As for the confidence work I already tried on my friends. Assuming they were paying customers, would visualisations and/or anchoring produce a lasting effect? Of course, it may vary from person to person but by and large? I'd hate to get someone really flying, only for it to wear off after a week - and that's not going to get me many referrals!

I am confused as I was trained that anchoring and submodality work is short term only yet Bandler gets long lasting change with submodalities so can the same be applied to anchoring? What about no anchoring and just doing the visualisations - is that adequate for long standing change?

[Nemesis Rogue]

I am also one of those who needs to know everything and not knowing so is making me edgy - I'm not used to it!


Just to clarify, I mean that I like to have a good grounding and a good idea of where to go, what to do, what would happen if etc. With some issues out there, I have an idea - as mentioned - but with others, like elevators, I have no idea where to start.

I know that I'll never know everything about everything and I don't expect to be but my quote may have given that impression. I just like a basic understanding yet I' m not even sure how permanent anchoring can be! :-)

All I need to do now is not to let Dog's reply to my hypnotherapy thread undo all the good work of your replies.

Thx

[Merlin]

Nemesis,

More than anything else, you need a bit of self-work.
You need confidence in yourself.
If you lack that confidence, it'll show and your clients will respond accordingly.

On my FAQ, it says:
When the mind expects something to happen,
it will go out of its way to create that expectation as a reality.

It aqpplies to you as well as to the client.
If you expect less than perfect success, it'll happen. Your mind will create it for you.

Adopt a new attitude.
a 'You sit in my chair and your arse is mine.
You will change. You must. There is no other choice for you.'
With that attitude you'll succeed much more often.

As for the change lasting, the permanence is not dependant on your tool.
Anchors, submod shifts, swish, whatever are all permanent. Lack of permanence is another situation.
Lack of permanence comes when there are other issues which were not dealt with.

Say you help a person stop smoking using anchors. But the real problem was self-security. An issue you did not help.
The person quits smoking, but the self-security, the reason the person started smoking, is not resolved.
The person takes up smoking again to resolve the underlying issue which is no longer being met.
(often, the self-security is long dealt with, but the smoking remains. In that case the anchor(s) would've resolved the smoking permanently).
So, the mind thinks 'what can I do to help with self-security'?
'Smoking worked once. I think I'll try it again.'
And so, the smoking starts as a new habit, not a return to the old.

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi Merlin,

Good advice again, thx.

It's not that I lack confidence as a whole. In most areas of my life I'm very confident but as you can see from my questions above, I have uncertainty due to my lack of knowledge. Now that you've addressed the permanence issue, I feel confident with it and the techniques mentioned.

However, I am not sure about meta modelling every client - I would assume so so as to ensure I avoid what you described (and miss the security issue). I am not sure about the questions raised above. Once I get sorted on those, I should be okay. It's just that all too often, I can think of a client problem yet have no idea where to start: submodalities, metaphors, SWISH etc. I mean, how to deal with a fear of elevators and nail biting is driving me nuts!

Thx

[Merlin]

Hi again,

Meta model until you have what you need, however long or short that is.

>I can think of a client problem yet have no idea where to start: submodalities, metaphors, SWISH etc.

What do you feel like?
one method gets boring after a while.
Maybe use swish on even days, anchors on odd days.
At least until you find what is easiest for you.

For fears/phobias, use the timeline variance of the NLP fast fobia cure :)

[skip]

Nemisis,

Im curious.

If you had a client come to you and say, "All I need to do now is not to let XXX's reply to my hypnotherapy thread undo all the good work of your replies.", what would you suggest?

In other words, if someone came to you and said they couldnt control their response, in a specific situation, what would your theraputic response likely be?

skip

[Nemesis Rogue]

You've got me, Skip. No idea.
Based on how I felt when I posted that comment about undoing the good work, just shaking the belief structure with meta modelling may be enough to blow the problem out.

Underneath though, it sounds it's a confidence issue - therefore reframing, visualisation, positive state generation and anchoring/collapse anchoring.

Polished off with some hypnotherapy about being confident.

So tell me, how wrong am I? :)

[lanepierce]

I am also one of those who needs to know everything and not knowing so is making me edgy - I'm not used to it!
Hi Nemesis:

Let me suggest you work on getting rid if this limitation. NLP is so broad and vast that you may never know everything there is to know. The good news is that there is never an opportunity to get board with it either. ;)


2) And would you always meta model every client to find the root cause(s) or are there times you accept what they are saying and go straight into the interventions?

Were you trained by us? If so, give me a call at the office.


I am confused as I was trained that anchoring and submodality work is short term only yet Bandler gets long lasting change with submodalities so can the same be applied to anchoring? What about no anchoring and just doing the visualisations - is that adequate for long standing change?
Hmmm... were you trained by us??? You would not have been taught that submodality work is sort term. It is quick... and the results can be permanent. It depends if the client choose to hold on to the new submodalities - presuming you have done all the clean up work and helped the client to eliminate underlying issues.

All the best,

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi Lane,

No, I wasn't trained by you. My strategy for learning is to test what I've been told to the point where I am assured.

Eg: some people accept at face value "a square has 4 sides, a triangle has 3." I'm the one who says "so there's no such thing as a 3 sided square? What would happen if I added a 5th side? What would that be if it's not a square?"

Half the time I know the answers, I just seek affirmation that I'm on the right track.

If I know submodalities can be permanent - then fine. It's just that I was led to believe (maybe wrongly) that anchoring and submodality change work are best for minor unwanted states as they can wear off at any time.

[Hibbitty]

Hey NemRog,

I've a hunch hear that I'd like to share with you.


Your voice tonality, diction, and rate of speaking are informing the unconscious not to trust you.


Have you tried straightening your spine, looking people in the eye, and modulating your voice to sound dead certain of what you're saying?

What would happen if you behaved confidently about a subject you feel wishy washy about?

[skip]

OK Nemisis,

Ill accept your diagnosis.

A confidence issue.

So what would it feel like if the confidence, genuine confidence were actually honestly there?

skip

[Nemesis Rogue]

It would feel like I do in other areas of my life where I am confident.

[skip]

OK so how does that feel?

skip

[Nemesis Rogue]

It feels good.

[Don]

NR, I think Skip may have been trying to get you to get more into the physicality of the feeling. Feeling good to one person might be feeling warm all over, while to another person it might be feeling cool breezes.

So what does feeling "good" mean to you?

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi Don,

It feels serene and calm. That is the certainty that I know, without doubt, I am right or can do whatever is required.

On top of the calmness, I feel a warm sensation in my chest. It radiates out in all directions. I feel 20ft tall and made of steel. I am unbreakable.

[Poodle]

You are doing it AGAIN! IF I know. We don't like that word "if". Delete it from your vocabulary noooowwwwww.

You asked about nail biting. I usually find Milton Erickson's 1 minute "cure" on that one works wonders in hypnosis. They say NOT to pattern the masters but when someone gets something as good and fast as that - WHY NOT? Was Erickson not one of the "models" for NLP?

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi,

Just a note to say tehse past few weeks have been a revelation. Confidence is soaring and am close to getting out there on my own. All I really need now is to perform some meta modelling, ensure I'm getting to the DS and not floating around it, and then I am free!


Yippee!

[skip]

Ah that feels good to me too!

So now, can you use your newly aquired skills to have that feeling, yourself, when you contemplate seeing clients, and actually working with clients?

I know you could use your skills to help someone else have them.

I dont know what they might be calling it these days, but an exercise called 'cricles of excellence' or called by some 'tower of power'; would be ideal to self-install this.

Did you perchance practice anything called that, or something that you recall, is for changing your own state in context?

skip

[Nemesis Rogue]

Hi Skip,

Good post. Yes I can see myself installing htis in me too. As for the Circles of Excellence, this sounds very similar to "Ring of Power" where basically you build this ring full of positive states and stack them onto the ring. Then you can either step in the ring and feel it empower you or you can wear the ring like a belt and take it with you etc.

[skip]

Bingo!

A 'ring of power' by any other name ...

See Nemisis, there are basically two reasons a person cannot do something.

1.They dont have the skill.
2.They dont believe thay can.

Now if you think about it there are several combinations of the above, but essentially the key element is the belief, because skill can almost always be aquired.

So no belief, no do.

Now I recognize that people will be concerned that you might install the belief, when you dont yet have the skill. And that is a fair concern, and the one you yourself experessed.

But part of this expertise is 'book' knowelege and part is 'real world experience'.

Im not suggesting that you inflict yourself on the unsuspecting public willy nilly.

But rather that you install the level of confidence necesary to begin doing. With the full recognition that the doing is also a process of learning. Anyone, no matter who they are, no matter how experienced, who doesnt recognize that, is a fool. We all learn every time. None of us know it all.

The difference is that we have the confidence, not just the knowelege, that when we interact with a client, the synergy we create together is greater than that each of us posesses.

But I am getting off on a tangent, and into some of the beliefs I have adopted to foster me doing what I do.

What would be some realy cool elements to put into your 'ring', that would allow you to begin with confidence, and yet still have a reasonable feel for your limitations, so that you can treat people well? What would be the beliefs and attitudes and values that you think the best therapasts out there must have in common?

hope that helps,

skip

[Nemesis Rogue]

You are dead on Skip!

Thx!

[Poodle]

Another suggestion: Try using "imagine or visualize". Gives the client a choice. Some people can imagine really well and others visualize really well. Cover your bases.

[lanepierce]

Milton Erickson said, "The client will not actualize what the hypnotherapist does not believe to be true."

I believe I have mis-quoted. Was that Andre Weitzenhoffer?

All the best,

[Don]

Wasn't it Elman?

[Terry (existing)]

No idea who it was, but whomever, they knew their stuff, clients are extremely perceptive when in the trance state, and will note the doubt in the practitioners voice...

[Don]

While I agree with you that clients will note doubt in the practitioner's voice (even if the practitioner and client are consciously unaware of it), I think it goes much deeper than that.

The best example I can give is what the acting instructor Stanislavski (father of "method acting") called "rays." He contended (see "An Actor Prepares") that during a performance, an actor projects "rays" of what he or she is thinking and feeling. Unless those rays are congruent with the monologues and dialogs, the audience will not believe the performance. Put another way, unless the actor fully believes the emotions and thoughts of the character he or she is portraying, the audience will not believe it. This comes across in ways including but going beyond vocal characteristics.

[relax]

Hey Rogue,

Somebody else mentioned it but I wanted to add to that. I thought it was telling that both of your examples of failure had to do with instilling confidence, using techniques which you do not feel confident with. If they'd both been fear of heights or something...

Is it possible that you associated with their state during the process? That's always been an issue for me, and I think it might even be prerequisite to getting anywhere in some cases. But then you need to come out of it as well. That might be the sticking point

Also, re Bandler's comment on confidence being boring. Confidence is of course a nominalization, it's different for you than it is for me. After getting that much, I realized I have no idea what it is. Subsequently I learned (through, um.. self-therapy w!) that confidence to me is the complete absence of a feeling I get in my solar plexus. When that feeling isn't there, I give the impression called "confidence" effortlessly. No visualization involved at all, except visuals often trigger the feeling in the solar plexus. Which is easy for me to reverse.

A sidenote, in trying to understand what "confidence" looks like, my favorite laboratory is the British parliament on C-Span. As an American, I don't really follow what is going on, and it all comes across as a Monty Python version of our Congress. But they are very confident, if not much else.

Lastly, practice on everyone. If there's one thing about NLP of which I'm convinced, it's the realization that we do have an effect on people know matter what it is we're doing. So I put a little NLP into everyday, even if it's a simple interchange with the gas station attendant. I haven't tried very much of the heavy change work because I'm not comfortable with it (and not in therapy biz at all), but the people I have worked with were friends who needed it anyway. And I didn't ever tell them what I was doing, I just did it. What seems to be most effective for me has been anchoring the reasons for change. Why does your "experimentee" want to feel confident? That also helps describe what confidence is in their world, and opens to a visualization whether they know they are seeing pictures or just seeing pictures.

My 2 cents, cheers all....

[Connie]

Experimenting on people without their consent or knowledge? We have another similar topic here with comments as to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of doing so: http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?t=3182

[relax]

Experimenting on people without their consent or knowledge? We have another similar topic here with comments as to the appropriateness or inappropriateness of doing so: http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?t=3182

Thanks, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your assumptions!

Cheers...

[Connie]

Reading your post set off some little mental alarms (specifically, "Here we go again!") and made me feel uncomfortable. What would be the harm in discussing what you'd like to do with your friends/"experimentees" in advance, and getting their blessing to tinkering with their minds? Your friends "needed it." According to who?

[Connie]

Relax, another story has come to mind. There's this haunted place in New Orleans. It's called The LaLurie Mansion. In the mid 1800's there was a doctor living there who performed "experiments" on his slaves. Grotesque and cruel medical experiments. But in his mind I'm sure he was exploring and creating the perfect person. One subject he broke her bones and caused them to bend in bizarre ways--perhaps he considered this an improvement that she needed.

My problem is the idea of removing choice from people. Choice. It's all we truly have in this world.

[Poodle]

We do have choice so why not put this poster on your "ignore list" and forgiddabout him. Seems like a good choice to me!

[relax]

Reading your post set off some little mental alarms (specifically, "Here we go again!") and made me feel uncomfortable. What would be the harm in discussing what you'd like to do with your friends/"experimentees" in advance, and getting their blessing to tinkering with their minds? Your friends "needed it." According to who?

Interesting... one of the first concepts I learned in NLP (and it probably isn't even really NLP), was "mind reading". Seems prevalent in the commentary here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see NLP as being any different than any other method of communication, other than it is more effective. You did not ask my permission to make the suggestion that I adjust my ethics to conform to yours. Yet this is what you are attempting to do here, and absent any information as to what my ethics are. You are tinkering with my mind without my permission.

To clarify the matter and put your mind at ease, one example. My girlfriend came home from the hospital and was in severe pain. I helped her go to sleep. Which is what she needed, according to her. If you have a problem with that... shrug.

Regarding your other response, I have no inention of torturing people, and I think it's a pretty disturbing absolute to illustrate the alleged point.

[Connie]

Interesting... one of the first concepts I learned in NLP (and it probably isn't even really NLP), was "mind reading".

You did not ask my permission to make the suggestion that I adjust my ethics to conform to yours.

Regarding your other response, I have no inention of torturing people, and I think it's a pretty disturbing absolute to illustrate the alleged point.

Mind reading? That's a skill I'd like.

I didn't realize I was suggesting you change your ethics and practices, I was hoping to make you think. YOU can decide to change if you feel like it. It's that choice thing again. You can also decide if you feel like thinking about it or not.

The LaLurie example IS extreme. Very. People who unilaterally think they know what's best for others is something I find disturbing, as well.

Poodle, I don't have anybody on ignore. I like to see what people have to say. :)

[Connie]

Dear ... Relax. :)

One more comment! (I don't have the editing post powers, or I would add it above.)

I didn't mean to imply that you're a maniac out to torture people. I really didn't. I apologize that it seemed that way to you. I don't know enough about you (anything other than your few posts) to make such a determination. I think true maniacs are kind of rare, anyway. :) I am definitely no mind reader. :p You'll do whatever you want, and you know, I'm OK with that! :D

[Don]

Relax, you are absolutely, 100% correct about mind reading going on here. The concept of mind reading, and the problems associated with it, are discussed in both hypnotherapy and NLP trainings. It is generally considered negative. In short, you shouldn't mind read your clients.

However, you are not anyone's client here. One of the handicaps of all internet forums is that we can't see a poster's expression or body language. We only get the information that a poster wants to give which may include irrelevant material and omit important things.

As a result, when someone comes here making posts such as your original post, other posters would either have to spend endless hours with back-and-forth questioning (which would be very boring to other readers and would probably piss off the original poster after a time, and is the reason we do not perform hypnotherapy or other forms of counseling on this forum) or we have to do some form of mind reading.

And so that's what happens on this and on every other freakin' forum on the internet. Respectfully, if you don't want people to guess your motivations and your behaviors, your only recourse is to never post anything anywhere. Being as neither you nor I would do that, we're stuck with others doing mind reading.

However, I would be willing to bet that every hypnotherapist and NLP practitioner on this forum who you are denouncing for mind reading will promise that if you become one of their clients, they will not mind read you.

There is a big difference between forums on a website and in-person hypnotherapy/NLP work. I hope you see the difference.

[relax]

Hi Don,

Good points. I think what has heppened here is you probably get a lot of neophytes passing through here who ask the same or similar questions, which lead to the same unrealistic expectations or presumptions, thus the responses are just recurring pattern as it is assumed I fall into the same category as those prior novices. Which I may. That's what it I've gathered reading some of the archives, at least.

I do want to comment on the nlp in writing. It does minimize it in some ways, tonality and of course writing is a one-way communication. However, there are a lot of uses for nlp in developing good writing skills as well. Linguistics is linguistics, after all. As I mentioned to Connie in a PM, I first found nlp in a military interrogation manual, one of the applications was in analysing written confessions and establishing patterns of incongruencies, temporal shifts, observer/experiential shifts, even certain places where typos occur.

There is a lot of information conveyed in sentence and word structure that does fall into the nlp model to some extent. Not that this is meaningful in regards to forums, just a side note I find intriguing. I publish a regular column as well as occasional marketing material, and so I've focused on that area.

Words are merely symbols, and the proper arrangement of the symbols assembles an idea that is the crux of the message communicated. Paragraphs can have tonality, in their own rite. Of course it's not directly interactive, which makes a huge difference as far as how deep you can get. On the other hand, reading induces intensely deep trances if the reader finds the material to be exquisitely written.

As for denouncing practitioners, I am not denouncing any of them, not intentionally. At least, not yet. I am not sure who here is even a professional yet. I was disappointed by the negative suppositions, which are no different than other forums like you pointed out, but expected more from an nlp forum. My bad!

[Don]

Hi Don,

Good points. I think what has heppened here is you probably get a lot of neophytes passing through here who ask the same or similar questions, which lead to the same unrealistic expectations or presumptions, thus the responses are just recurring pattern as it is assumed I fall into the same category as those prior novices. Which I may. That's what it I've gathered reading some of the archives, at least.


Seems like mind reading is okay to you if you do it :eek: :eek: :eek:

[relax]

Seems like mind reading is okay to you if you do it :eek: :eek: :eek:

I was very careful to qualify that statement, that I had read through numerous other posts in the archives here to come to that conclusion. As well as several responses to the effect, so... whatever. Maybe the replies were written by clinically insane paranoiacs whose only method of communication is the non sequiter. Those were the only two conclusions I could come up with. Both possibilities were entertained, other posts precluded the latter possibility. And at any rate I was trying to put the matter to rest and move along.

Does Bandler have a forum?

[Don]

Hi, Relax.

I have no doubt that you read through hundreds, perhaps thousands of words from various people to come to your conclusion. In talking with a client, I may hear more than that from just one person in the first five minutes!

Like I said, we don't have much of a choice but to mind read here. Sooner or later most of the people here do it to a greater or lesser extent. With a client the situation is quite different.

Google Bandler to find his website, if any, and see if he has a forum.

[Terry (existing)]

A facinating suggestion, that we should refrain from "mind reading" I think. First of all, surely anything written to others is "mind projection is it not? Secondly, when reading, don't we all use our minds in an attempt to understand what is being projected? I have always thought this to be so, and regardless of whom I am speaking to, this takes place based on circumstance. If the written word is all I have, so be it, and I am more likely to make a mistake due to lack of clues, and the ability of the writter to project clearly. However, without mind reading, our replies would be less accurate, and be one sylable replies only, either YES or NO. I must try it sometime and see how quickly I can piss people off with such replies :D I have yet to read anywere that we should not attempt to mind read clients by the way, and if I did read it, and understood it as is suggested it should be understood, I would reject it outright. When in conversation with a client, I always did what I normally do, why not, it has worked for me for ever so to speak. My conversation with them is to elicit from them exactly what the desired result should be, and then to facilitate that result MY way, since they are employing me as a guide, on the understanding that I have a certain expertise, and if I fail to use that expertise, I fail my client and myself. Using any other means of therapy, no preinduction talk would be required, and no skill in applying what was requested, since the client is assumed to be the understanding party, knowing full well what they want, and how they want it. For that I have only one word, B......t. Anybody want to work at the idea of using a computer type induction, and suggestion recording, and place it in public places for the unsuspecting public to use it instead of employing us very expensive therapists?

[Poodle]

"She was my girlfriend and she was in pain so I just...". Well sir, my next door neighbor of 34 years is in serious pain. He called me over to see if I could help him. I told him I was very sorry but I would need permission from his physician. The physician's comments were: "He's a grown man and can do what he wants. I don't know the hypnotist or her qualifications." That means I can't do diddley squat even though I really want to as it would be practicing medicine without a license which is punishable by serving time in the prison.

I would suggest that you learn your ethics too. I do not know where you learned NLP but I can definitely tell you it does not cover mind reading. Don't want to believe me, contact Bandler or Grinder and you'll get the same answer. Madder than blazes, Pood :mad:

[relax]

"She was my girlfriend and she was in pain so I just...". Well sir, my next door neighbor of 34 years is in serious pain. He called me over to see if I could help him. I told him I was very sorry but I would need permission from his physician.

To do what? Call in the Feds! We have an epidemic of parents reading bedtime stories to their kids without written permission from a physician. Where exactly do you draw the line I wonder. There was no ethical dilemma whatsoever, what kind of arrogant egomaniacal schmuck would I have to be to invent one and let somebody suffer needlessly?

The physician's comments were: "He's a grown man and can do what he wants. I don't know the hypnotist or her qualifications." That means I can't do diddley squat even though I really want to as it would be practicing medicine without a license which is punishable by serving time in the prison.

Alright, some of the contributors here MIGHT BE insane. I stand corrected. Hypnosis is NOT RECOGNIZED as a medical procedure. Your statement above is totally incredulous and absurd.


I would suggest that you learn your ethics too. I do not know where you learned NLP but I can definitely tell you it does not cover mind reading. Don't want to believe me, contact Bandler or Grinder and you'll get the same answer.


From Structure of Magic II, Grinder & Bandler, Part V (Page 172):

... The most useful Meta-model distinctions are those which identify the limits of the model which the client is using to organize his ongoing experience. Specifically, these include:

modal operators
semnantic ill-formedness
Cause-Effect
Mind-Reading
Lost Performative

(Followed by several pages discussing lost performatives and mind-reading).

See also Structure of Magic I, Magic in Action, etc. I happened to be using SM II as a mousepad, hence that particular reference at hand.

Which leaves me with the question, where exactly did YOU allegedly learn NLP?

Madder than blazes, Pood :mad:

I've heard a good hypnotherapist/NLP practitioner can help you with anger management. You should consult one, after getting permission from your doctor of course.

:cool:

[Connie]

Relax, your screenname is a misnomer. You're having the opposite effect around here. You don't seem very relaxed yourself, either--you seem to be in a constant state of insult and huff! You criticize the people here and continually suggest that you might leave, you want to leave, yet you don't leave. I like to be helpful. Let me remind you where the door is. It's that little red x in the upper right.

[relax]

Relax, your screenname is a misnomer. You're having the opposite effect around here. You don't seem very relaxed yourself, either--you seem to be in a constant state of insult and huff! You criticize the people here and continually suggest that you might leave, you want to leave, yet you don't leave. I like to be helpful. Let me remind you where the door is. It's that little red x in the upper right.

I am perfectly relaxed, and have been all day. I'm responding to accusations that I am unethical and ignorant, if you care to read the post I replied to (all quoted above for reference), I think it's pretty clear. Insult and huff? Moi? Can you cite an example?

I'm not leaving. I'm kind of intrigued by the cross-section that has gathered here. Nor will I be censoring logic from the dialogue, nor accepting ad hoc hallucinations without challenge, though I will try not to rock the boat too much. But all I've done is ask questions, and respond to largely baseless accusations, and I've attepted to do both within the parameters of the topic at hand, which would be nlp.

Cheers...

[Connie]

I I will try not to rock the boat too much.

That's wonderful. Because I see people upchucking over the sides. Actually, not. They're all very calm around here. But I believe that you'd like them to. There's a polite, positive way to talk to people, and an insulting, abrasive way to talk to people. You should be skilled enough in langage, with all your knowledge of NLP, to know the difference.

Oh, PS: adding a smiley face to an insult doesn't negate it.

[relax]

[quote=Connie] There's a polite, positive way to talk to people, and an insulting, abrasive way to talk to people. [quote]

Yes, there is. And when someone strings a bunch of lies together to make you look bad, especially when those lies are extremely misleading in regards to the topic being discussed, that is not a polite positive way to talk to people.

Now that you and I have resolved any misuderstandings that we might have had, wouldn't this be a nice time to just relax and think about all of those great things Skip had to say, somewhere over there?

[Connie]

Skip IS a font of wisdom. :) You got that one right!!!

Like you, I AM relaxed. What made you think otherwise? And I'm unaware of any misunderstandings between us. I understand you.

I think one of the moderators will be along shortly to clean up this topic, and delete a few posts! Clean up on aisle 3!!!

[Poodle]

I believe you will find that Structure of Magic was Richard's college dissertation. 1. The Structure of Choice
2. The Structure of Language, 3. The Structure of Magic, 4. Incantations for Growth and Potential, 5. Into the Vortex, 6. On Becoming a Sorcerer's Apprentice, Conclusion - Structure of the final incantation of Book 1, (sorry, no humor - college work)

Magic in Action: 1. Anticipatory Loss, 2. Agoraphobia, 3. Fear of Authority Figures, 4. Chocolate & Worms, 5. Beyond Beliefs, 6. Weight Loss, Appendix: The Milton Model

Where did I learn NLP - you must not read the threads - Poodle = puppy love = Bandler. I am currently reading Time For A Change.

I was for your information referring to hypnosis which is governed by certain rules as one is a professional; a/k/a not practicing medicine without a license.

Someone is in unbelieveable pain and you want to NLP it? Get a grip!! You need to realize that in the USA we have ethical codes. Don't believe me? Check with NGH. :mad:

[relax]

Someone is in unbelieveable pain and you want to NLP it? Get a grip!! You need to realize that in the USA we have ethical codes. Don't believe me? Check with NGH. :mad:

Why do you keep arguing for my limitations?

She went to sleep, and she felt much better when she woke up.

As for the rest, I'm sorry but you've given me no reason at all to believe that you know what you have any idea what you are talking about, so I'm going to seek my knowledge elsewhere. It's alright, I'm funny that way.

:cool:

[Poodle]

Since you are on my ignore list and I can't see your posts I will tell you that Bandler's website is purenlp.com :cool: but there is no Forum. There is this one, NGH and one in England that I am currently aware of.

[relax]

Since you are on my ignore list and I can't see your posts I will tell you that Bandler's website is purenlp.com :cool: but there is no Forum. There is this one, NGH and one in England that I am currently aware of.

Thanks! I haven't laughed so hard in days. Come to think of it, this is the first time I've been talked to and ignored simultaneously by the same individual.

Now that's some incongruency... and someone said you can't learn nlp on a message board! What chapter do they cover incongruencies in? Read that one again.

ignore, ignored, ignoring, ignores, ignorance.... check.

[Connie]

Can we stop now with the insults? We're making Don work overtime here, and it's not fair.

[Terry (existing)]

Relax, your screenname is a misnomer. You're having the opposite effect around here. You don't seem very relaxed yourself, either--you seem to be in a constant state of insult and huff! You criticize the people here and continually suggest that you might leave, you want to leave, yet you don't leave. I like to be helpful. Let me remind you where the door is. It's that little red x in the upper right. Gee Connie, you just made my day (G). Actually, I find his posts kind of fun, but then I see things differently. To me, as he stepped into it in his first post, he has since attempted to wriggle out of his dillema like a little red worm on a fish hook. You do at times need to use your imagination when reading annoying posts, by seeing the poster differently, just as I described, and thus seeing the humour in the situation. As for Relax, listen sonny, your first mistake was in trying to impress those of us who DO what you imagine yourself doing, and who know WHY it works for them. For your own sake, if you truly are interested in our art, do yourself a favour and take training before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. If training is not in your future, forget about trying to be a big shot with silly claims about what you can do, because what you can do is no different from what anyone else can do period, and nothing to boast about. Only the skilled go beyond that. You comment on how this board should be different, but fact is it is different, we CAN mind read. We can recognise the false, the braggarts, and the "I wish" crowd, and at present, you fit in there somewere. Whether you stay there is up to you, and nobody else.

[relax]

Gee Connie, you just made my day (G). Actually, I find his posts kind of fun, but then I see things differently. To me, as he stepped into it in his first post, he has since attempted to wriggle out of his dillema like a little red worm on a fish hook. You do at times need to use your imagination when reading annoying posts, by seeing the poster differently, just as I described, and thus seeing the humour in the situation. As for Relax, listen sonny, your first mistake was in trying to impress those of us who DO what you imagine yourself doing, and who know WHY it works for them. For your own sake, if you truly are interested in our art, do yourself a favour and take training before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. If training is not in your future, forget about trying to be a big shot with silly claims about what you can do, because what you can do is no different from what anyone else can do period, and nothing to boast about. Only the skilled go beyond that. You comment on how this board should be different, but fact is it is different, we CAN mind read. We can recognise the false, the braggarts, and the "I wish" crowd, and at present, you fit in there somewere. Whether you stay there is up to you, and nobody else.

Being a big shot? Silly claims about what I can do? Boasting? WTF are you talking about?

Can't speak as to your nlp/whatever skills, but your reading comprehension is a bit lacking.

As for reading my mind, glad to hear you have that power.

Read this....

[Connie]

Gee Connie, you just made my day (G).

Your saying that makes MY day. :D Thanks for your great advice regarding imagination and flipping one's perception of annoying posts. I'll certainly give that a go!!

[Unreg]

I think one of the moderators will be along shortly to clean up this topic, and delete a few posts! Clean up on aisle 3!!!

Can we stop now with the insults? We're making Don work overtime here, and it's not fair.

They don't call him "Donald Scissorhands" for nothing, ya know!




This post scheduled for deletion by Don : In the very near future. Reason: just because......

[Connie]

Actually, he chose not to touch a thing. Your latest, however, seems like a fine candidate for "post heaven."

[Poodle]

Relax has never taken NLP. He has read a few Bandler books. I checked his profile. It's easy -- just go to Membership List, go to the "R's" and you'll find all about Relax. It does not indicate that hypnosis training was had either.

Hmmmmmmmm :p

[relax]

Relax has never taken NLP. He has read a few Bandler books. I checked his profile. It's easy -- just go to Membership List, go to the "R's" and you'll find all about Relax. It does not indicate that hypnosis training was had either.

Hmmmmmmmm :p

Hmmmmmm indeed. But you didn't have to do such heavy research, if you had read anything I've written here (including what you've respnded to)

Excerpts from my first 10 posts (you can look those up too):

"Also I have to say I haven't had any training in NLP. I've read a few books on it, listened to a few gurus give seminars."

"I haven't tried very much of the heavy change work because I'm not comfortable with it (and not in therapy biz at all)"

"I am not seeking a profession in hypnosis or NLP at this time."

"I am sure this is true, and I am still very much in the knowledge acquisition stage, and look forward to implementing that knowledge, and am sure I will find the proper instructors when the time is right. Thanks!"


Here I was, being a big shot, making silly claims about what I can do and boasting as to my great skills...well Terry caught me first you know....nailed me for a phoney...what was it..."false, the braggarts, and the "I wish" crowd".

Uh, for the record, I made no such claims whatsoever but perhaps I thought them unconsciously and Terry picked them up.

Good thing Pood is on the ball though, exposing me for the novice I repeatedly proclaimed to be.

Which is unfortunate, because even with what little I know, I can recognize a dog and pony show for what it is, and that is what it is, clear as day.

Suggesting I can go to prison for performing hypnosis on my girlfriend?

etc...

charlatanism, sorry that's what it is. If mods here are not addressing it as such, I guess I know where the bar is set.

[relax]

And hey, what the hell do I know about anything right?

-------------------------
Hi Everyone,

Due to recent posts, I think there are a couple points to make. First, for those of us that have been here for a while, who are senior members and team members, it is important that we approach guests and new users with respect and an assumption that their questions are valid. That is why this board is here, to give individuals an opportunity to express view points and to ask questions. The answers come from a variety of different individuals, and therefore this place on the web is a great resource.

Next, for everyone that sends messages electronically, it is close to impossible to set a tone for an email or post here at the forum. I have received emails in which I thought the sender was angry, only to find that they were in a playful or joking mood. I have had to learn to avoid reading into a message and look only at the words. Anything more than looking at the words, in NLP terms is mind reading or claiming to know what someone else is thinking or feeling without having specific knowledge of that claim.

Finally, a major draw of this forum is that we allow it to be public and we allow unregistered users and/or guest post anonymously. Therefore, we will receive posts from time to time that are interesting. It is a drawback of having a public forum but in my opinion the benefits of it being public are greater.

Thank you,
Matt James

[Connie]

All right, then. Group hug! :)

[Merlin]

>Call in the Feds! We have an epidemic of parents reading bedtime stories to their kids without written permission from a physician. Where exactly do you draw the line I wonder.

Generally, legislatures and courts draw the lines.

There is a difference between a parent and publicly practicing hypnotist.

[relax]

>Call in the Feds! We have an epidemic of parents reading bedtime stories to their kids without written permission from a physician. Where exactly do you draw the line I wonder.

Generally, legislatures and courts draw the lines.

There is a difference between a parent and publicly practicing hypnotist.

I see. Well I am confused on this point. Because looking around the web, all I can find is that hypnosis is not recognized as a medical profession. Also I cannot find any cases where a hypnotist was charged with anything approaching malpractice. Because it's not a recognized medical profession.

Perhaps more pointedly, a post elsewhere by an individual asking if it is possible that their friend is a victim of her husband hypnotizing her. A veteran hypnotist here responded that they have never ever seen anyone be victimized by hypnosis. That suggestions to that effect were always a case of people not accepting responsibility for their actions and choices. Victimless!

Yet here we are, discussing legal ramifications (non-existent in the actual world, as far as I can discern) for causing imminent injury (to self and others) for attempting hypnosis without having proper ($$$) training from...some hypnotist somewhere.... who might be offering such ($$$) services. It's extremely dangerous, no... victimless, no... dangerous, but don't worry it's quite harmless once you've had the material unconsciously inserted by a profe$$ional..

Cheeky.

Can someone refer me to some legal background on the matter so I can research it further? Some case histories of criminal proceedings would be great. Because I may have it all wrong. Thanks in advance.

P.S. If books and videos are useless for learning these skills, why does every nlp trainer I can find sell both, usually billed as educational material? Are they all con-artists?

P.P.S.- If it is only possible to learn these skills from an NLP trainer, who taught Bandler, Grinder, and Erickson?

[Poodle]

Yes, one learns those skills from a NLP trainer. Erickson did not practice NLP, he practiced psychiatry w/hypnosis thus we have what is known today as "The Milton Model". B&G have trained many, many people. Go find one and learn to do it right. I could write a very long list on who "trained B&G". It's not just two crazy college people doing something weird. They actually went and studied the most successful people and WHY these people were so successful. Boiled it down and up sprang NLP. Neither of them really own NLP per se so they keep redefining it. DHE, NHR, etc., but it all boils down in the end to NLP with some extras. If something stays stagnant and never grows, then it dies. by adding in a few new twists, means that you can OWN IT - JUST UNDER ANOTHER NAME!

You can read all the books you want but you will not really have NLP skills. How to anchor cannot be explained in a book but it sure can be felt in a class. Besides, you are reading the wrong books! Try Frogs Into Princes and Trance-formations. You just may learn a few things. Grouchy old Pood,

[Merlin]

>looking around the web, all I can find is that hypnosis is not recognized as a medical profession.

Hypnosis is recognised by the AMA as a modality for treatment.

>Also I cannot find any cases where a hypnotist was charged with anything approaching malpractice.

Probably not.
When a non-licensed MD is charged with practicing medicine without a license, the particular modality practiced is not a legal issue.

>A veteran hypnotist here responded that they have never ever seen anyone be victimized by hypnosis.

Being 'victimised' is not the issue at hand.
If a person has Cancer, and I heal that person of their Cancer, then the person is not 'victimised'.
However, I could still be charged with practicing medicine without a license (unless I am an MD too).

> Yet here we are, discussing legal ramifications (non-existent in the actual world, as far as I can discern)

It's your choice whether you break the law and hope to get away with it.

>for causing imminent injury (to self and others)

Harm or injury isn't an issue.

Traning ($$$) in hypnotism doesn't protect one from the laws against practicing medicine.

>P.S. If books and videos are useless for learning these skills, why does every nlp trainer I can find sell both, usually billed as educational material? Are they all con-artists?

They are good for new ideas and furthering education.
Also, it is lucrative $$$
By law, it's free speech in many countries.
If someone dies, it's not an issue for the seller (legally).

> who taught Bandler, Grinder, and Erickson?

Erickson was a MD. a Psychiatrist.
He learned hypnosis in med school.
Bandler/Grinder learned from Erickson and by copying others.

[relax]

So, the ethical quandary is providing medical assistance without a license to do so, or more correctly professing to be helping people with medical conditions for $$ when not legally endowed to do so.

That makes much more sense. Thanks.

[Merlin]

Yes........