Enuresis

[advantageanesthesia]

Anybody have any experience in this area?

Victoria

[Annie]

Hi Victoria,

What's the 'age' of this person ? : I ask because at age 5, an estimated 15% have PNE. At age 15, only 1-2 % still have PNE.

For SNE (including adults), have you ruled out such other factors as a UTI, diabetes, chronic constipation, etc ? Sometimes, such people also suffer from night terrors, or sleep apnea. Are any of those a concern for this person ?

Beyond the above considerations, in your Hypnotherapy - practice, do you ever regress people to "cause" for perhaps some emotionally-traumatic change in this person's life, which can precipitate this challenge ? : if there's no physiological cause to this "nocturnal bed-wetting", then you can
ask this person's sub-conscious mind when/how it decided to start running this strategy, and go from there.

For the 2 children I have helped get over this : the 1st. had nightmares about 2 monsters under her bed that she was afraid to go to the toilet for; and the 2nd. kept it up it to get his parent's attention as they were going thru a divorce. Both had their challenges resolved fairly quickly.


Annie

[Don]

Annie makes a very good point here. In a situation such as enuresis, have a client checked out first to make sure they do not have a physiological problem. If you used suggestion to stop enuresis in a person with undiagnosed diabetes, for example, your work could delay treatment of diabetes with catastrophic results.

[Annie]

Hi Don,

Victoria's "professional" background being a Licensed nurse, like myself also; plus an Anesthetist, I would imagine in all likelihood most of her Client-base originates from Referrals. still, it is a good thing to chat back & forth,
as
(while in the capacity of playing nurse), often we end up asking the Docs : " Have you tested for ... , yet ?", or " H/She is developing new symptoms like ..., do you think a ... test is indicated here ? ", or several other variations on the theme.

The situation concerning us is : " Weekend wonder warriors " (especially those with zilch previous Clinical-work experience) who are hanging up shingles as Master NLP-hypnotherapists, assuming all they need to do is buy the " Big book of suggestions ", or come print the ones off Tad's site here, and just play professional Story-teller. And then this thing of "walking people around the room" to get them out of an abreaction ain't gonna work so well, either, if they're in the midst of a CVA or an MI .

Forgive me if you think I am being overly cautious, but after a decade of working in every kind of " Intensive Care " situation,
I feel much better prepared to deal with emergencies that can arise. And like I've said before, obviously not every Practitioner needs to have " hands-on Medical experience " to competently help people here, but some of it can be very helpful.

Continuously expanding our own *school* is more Fun, tho :)


Annie

[TaffyE]

Hi Don,

The situation concerning us is : " Weekend wonder warriors " (especially those with zilch previous Clinical-work experience) who are hanging up shingles as Master NLP-hypnotherapists, assuming all they need to do is buy the " Big book of suggestions ", or come print the ones off Tad's site here, and just play professional Story-teller. And then this thing of "walking people around the room" to get them out of an abreaction ain't gonna work so well, either, if they're in the midst of a CVA or an MI .
Annie
Those of us who have Master Practitioner Certificates hardly obtained them by being "Weekend wonder warriors"!!

With 40+ years in pharmacy - retail, public and private hospitals - no abreaction I have experienced has even remotely been similar to a CVA or MI.

I also resent the implication that not having worked in the clinical situations you have makes me less of a therapist than you.
Many nurses, IMO, think that they know more than they do, - like recommending the use of saline to "cure" conjunctivitis in a small baby, or recommending that teething be treated with a product containing codeine and dextropropoxephene, to name but two.

[Don]

Hi Don,

Victoria's "professional" background being a Licensed nurse, like myself also; plus an Anesthetist, I would imagine in all likelihood most of her Client-base originates from Referrals....
The situation concerning us is : " Weekend wonder warriors " (especially those with zilch previous Clinical-work experience) who are hanging up shingles as Master NLP-hypnotherapists, assuming all they need to do is buy the " Big book of suggestions ", or come print the ones off Tad's site here, and just play professional Story-teller. And then this thing of "walking people around the room" to get them out of an abreaction ain't gonna work so well, either, if they're in the midst of a CVA or an MI...

Annie

Hi, Annie.
I have a couple of responses to your quotes above.
1) I do not know why you felt it necessary to put quotes around Victoria's standing as a professional nurse. I also don't know if you understand that to use quotes in that way indicates doubt as to the accuracy of the statement. Unless a person has documentation that claimed credentials are not real, this type of comment should not be part of our board.
2) Whether Victoria's clients come from referrals or not was irrelevant to my point where I agreed with you. I was not trying to give Victoria advice. This forum is open to all people and I was trying to make the point general, not specific. That is, if a problem could be physiological, it is a good idea to have a potential client go to an MD first.
3) Here is a point where we may disagree. IMO, previous clinical work may have little or no effect on a person's ability with hypnotherapy and NLP. In fact, since the medical paradigm (patient broke--doctor fix) can be seen to be directly opposite or at best complementary to our paradigm (client not aware of own excellence--hypnotherapist/practitioner helps client obtain that awareness), such clinical experience may actually prevent a hypnotherapist/practitioner from achieving his or her own excellence. It will depend upon the individual practitioner.
4) You seem to be insulting not only many of the people on this board, but even the fact that there are scripts on this board. If you don't like the people and don't like the features that are here, why are you here?
5) Hypnotherapy has been around for thousands of years. Would you be so kind as to give some documentation supporting your claim that there have been abreactions in the form of an MI as a direct result of such therapy? A mere 10 such documented cases throughout history would satisfy me and certainly indicate the need for a defibrillator and training in its use for all hypnotherapists.

Thanks.

[Annie]

Hello Don,

> 1) I do not know why you felt it necessary to put quotes around Victoria's standing as a professional nurse.

How nice of you :) to ask me, so I can clarify this for you. This being a "General public" group, I guessed not too many readers being aware of the different 'distinctions' in nursing, but she isn't only a Registered nurse. Victoria happens to be an APRN : "Advanced Practice RN". That means, legally, she can : diagnose and treat illnesses, perform therapeutic and invasive procedures, prescribe, dispense and administer drugs and devices and order and administer anesthetics ".

> 1) I also don't know if you understand that to use quotes in that way indicates doubt as to the accuracy of the statement.

I am glad you informed me, as I was not aware of this.

> Unless a person has documentation that claimed credentials are not real, this type of comment should not be part of our board.

Yes, I would certainly agree with that.
However,
I put quotations-marks around the word "professional" -intending it as a sincere acknowledgement.
How would you prefer that I indicate this better, the next time I want to do so, Don ?

> 2) Whether Victoria's clients come from referrals or not was irrelevant to my point where I agreed with you. I was not trying to give Victoria advice. This forum is open to all people and I was trying to make the point general, not specific. That is, if a problem could be physiological, it is a good idea to have a potential client go to an MD first.

ok, thank you for clarifying that as it seemed like you were trying to 'dispense Advice' to Victoria ... and that is all the more reason I wanted it to be understood just what her Advanced-status is.

>3) Here is a point where we may disagree. IMO, previous clinical work may have little or no effect on a person's ability with hypnotherapy and NLP.

Don, to a point, I will agree with this; more on this later ...

> In fact, since the medical paradigm (patient broke--doctor fix) can be seen to be directly opposite or at best complementary to our paradigm (client not aware of own excellence--hypnotherapist/practitioner helps client obtain that awareness),

I like the way you said that, just now - especially (client not aware of own excellence--guiding-teacher helps client obtain that awareness).
I substituted the word "guiding-teacher" for "hypnotherapist/practitioner" - ok ? There is an important distinction between the 2 that I will speak to at another time)

> such clinical experience may actually prevent a hypnotherapist/practitioner from achieving his or her own excellence. It will depend upon the individual practitioner.

Yes, using:
1. already-developed spirituality, and
2. additional awareness of other 'states' : medical-coma-state, psychotic-state & the alzheimer-state,
beyond those, Steve helped me make 2 paradyne-shifts (no more medical-fogging :))
Given these 3 tools, any person can successfully communicate with such folks. (which is what I was referring to, in the thread in which
you, Don, favored LSD/ECT being enforced).
As Merlin plus I said yesterday, and will emphatically repeat, why resort to "torturing" ? -
when all can just as well enjoy the *Esdaile-state*.

Simply learn how to rapport with these people; and then - Lead them out.
Do you understand this quality of Rapport I am intending communicating, Don ? : it is much
*deeper* than the common NLP-rapport.

from my experience with such folk, hear this well : they 'know thru un-common means' who they can trust as their *friend*, versus who is *not* safe externally, period.
In you honoring their trust, they may choose to exit these Trance-states, depending on
how skilled are you ? in guiding them towards a Life they may want even more more ...


Annie

[Don]

Hello Don,

>1) ... I put quotations-marks around the word "professional" -intending it as a sincere acknowledgement.
How would you prefer that I indicate this better, the next time I want to do so, Don ?

>3) Here is a point where we may disagree. IMO, previous clinical work may have little or no effect on a person's ability with hypnotherapy and NLP.

Don, to a point, I will agree with this; more on this later ...

I like the way you said that, just now - especially (client not aware of own excellence--guiding-teacher helps client obtain that awareness).
I substituted the word "guiding-teacher" for "hypnotherapist/practitioner" - ok ? There is an important distinction between the 2 that I will speak to at another time)

> such clinical experience may actually prevent a hypnotherapist/practitioner from achieving his or her own excellence. It will depend upon the individual practitioner.

Yes, using:
1. already-developed spirituality, and
2. additional awareness of other 'states' : medical-coma-state, psychotic-state & the alzheimer-state,
beyond those, Steve helped me make 2 paradyne-shifts (no more medical-fogging :))
Given these 3 tools, any person can successfully communicate with such folks. (which is what I was referring to, in the thread in which
you, Don, favored LSD/ECT being enforced).
As Merlin plus I said yesterday, and will emphatically repeat, why resort to "torturing" ? -
when all can just as well enjoy the *Esdaile-state*.

Simply learn how to rapport with these people; and then - Lead them out.
Do you understand this quality of Rapport I am intending communicating, Don ? : it is much *deeper* than the common NLP-rapport. ...

Annie

Hi, Annie.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

1) Just say so.

3a) Yes, there is a difference between a hypnotherapist/practitioner and a guiding-teacher. In fact, this board is especially for those who are, who are looking to become, or who have questions concerning hypnotherapy and/or NLP. It is obvious from this, and from your previous posts, that you disdain the title as if you disagree with it at least and perhaps so strongly disagree with being labeled a hypnotherapist or NLP practitioner that you despise the terms and have invented your own tern which denies or disguises the value of and your use of NLP and/or hypnotherapy.

To me, this implies an agenda on your part, an attempt to say that what thousands of people are doing to help hundreds of thousands of clients around the world is in some way bad. So at this time I think it is fair to ask you to reveal exactly what your agenda is.Would you be so kind as to share it with us? Thanks.

3b) You may not be aware of it, but your questioning of me in your last paragraph I quoted above has two features. First, it presents you as a self-righteous know-it-all who is superior to all other people on this board. Secondly, it treats me both dismissively and insultingly. I am sure you are not so egotistical as to insist on your superiority to all others here, nor do I think your goal was to personally insult me, so I would respectfully suggest that you consider your words before posting them. I have very thick skin and usually laugh at seeming pomposity, but others may not be that way and I'm sure you don't want to present that image.

This goes along with:
4) Your post was a response to my previous post. I asked more than the questions you responded to, so I'll ask them again:
"You seem to be insulting not only many of the people on this board, but even the fact that there are scripts on this board. If you don't like the people and don't like the features that are here, why are you here?" This goes along with my question at the end of 3a above. And...

5) "Hypnotherapy has been around for thousands of years. Would you be so kind as to give some documentation supporting your claim that there have been abreactions in the form of an MI as a direct result of such therapy? A mere 10 such documented cases throughout history would satisfy me and certainly indicate the need for a defibrillator and training in its use for all hypnotherapists."

You know, you presented this as a definite possibility. And with your years of clinical experience you have a certain level of prestige with your comments. To make statements such as this and not support them with any documentation would tend to diminish such prestige, and I would hate to see that happen.

Currently, there is an internet crank who goes around posting bizarre things (all the people killed on 9/11 deserved to die), has a group on how to seduce women (although it is believed he still lives with his mother), and that stage hypnotists are using hypnosis to seduce young girls and bend the girls to their evil wills (sounds like a bad movie, huh?). In opposition to him a website has started that does nothing but post his actual quotes and false claims. He is so angry that he has sued to have the site taken down.

People who read his wackiness know that he is a crank and a bandwidth waster. I, and everyone reading this, realize that you do not fit into that category. As you know, I have agreed with you on many points (and disagreed on some, too) so I think you have many valid points to make and much to share. But if you make claims and don't support them with data, I fear that some people may put you in that classification, and I wouldn't like to see that.

[Annie]

Hello Don,

(remember, I am saving my posts *Intact*)

re another poster's question about going to a Hypnotist:
" Will you make me do anything I don't want to do? ",
I responded : "You are always *at Choice* ! :) "

This being always "at-choice" also holds true in deciding
who I will agree continuing sharing a "conversation" with here, or not.

Now, having already answered your 1st. point, re
how I meant the quotation marks in a *positive, respectful* way towards Victoria ...
you have wasted no time making your previous 5 Adversarial-points even more negative/destructing than just the day before. And this on the heels of
you publically disclosing your support of " increasing Lsd/ECT-application ", as a Hypnotherapist no less.

You asked, twice, about my Agenda. Well,
tell you what, can you bring yourself to
asking me to join you in -
1. How we can support *children's Well-being* ? thru other than Medicating them into oblivion; and
2. How we can support *adult's Well-being* ? thru other than Torturing them, legally; and
3. How we can instill *Hope in any suffering person* asking here questions ?, thru other than telling them " Always ask a 'certified' hypnotherapist for Help " (considering most people are aware 'papers' mean next to nothing)
and
4. How we can offer people *healthy Diversity in Services offered* ?, thru other than challenging why someone may call themselves a "Guide, or Teacher, or what-have-you.
It's not your Ph.D. Don, anyway - or what anybody else may call themselves - that matters.

What matters, is that you find it within yourself to support *Any person who,
1st & foremost, will never entertain thoughts of HARM-ing their students/clients;
and
2nd. is Ready to help people get their (goals : provided they cause no harm, either)

Yes, you can, with all the integrity of my soul/mind/heart, accept the above as my Agendas, Don.

as I suggested to my daughter, years ago : " stay FREE; and decide on some Work so noble, and especially fun, that your life is Bliss ! - for that is just how God intended that you live, Sweety :)"

When you, Don, are ready to have similar discussions with me - like Steve, my daughter, & scores of other people I am proud to call "my Friends" - then, let's have another GO ! at it ...

Annie

[Don]

Hi, Annie.

Thanks very much for your response.
Thanks for sharing that, in fact, you have an agenda, and not one point of that agenda is to come here to discuss hypnotherapy or NLP.

I fully admit that I have an agenda, too:

1) As a moderator of this forum, I feel it is my responsibility to help further the discussions here on hypnotherapy, NLP, esoterics and huna, etc. depending upon the main category of the forum.

2) It is my agenda to help people with questions by either answering them to the best of my ability or directing them, without prejudice, toward websites, books, locations, groups, or persons who can answer the questions. This means answering their questions rather than forcing upon them any particular viewpoint.

3) It is my agenda to share information on these specific subjects that is, to the best of my ability, accurate, complete, and timely.

4) As a moderator here I feel it is also my responsibility to prevent this forum from moving away from its goals of providing information, discussion, and answers about these subjects. This includes editing and/or deleting threads which are simply not related to the topics of this forum. For example, there are thousands of websites dedicated to the well-being of children. Such topics can be discussed anywhere. If they are not specifically focused on the above topics in regard to the well-being of children, such discussions really don't belong here. Similarly, while the discussion of the "best" laundry detergent, abortion, or the distance to the nearest galaxy might interest many people, they do not belong here either. Nor do personal attacks belong here.

On many instances in the past you have made some great contributions to this forum. I hope you continue to do so. I also hope that you will stick to the subjects of these forums and, with the highest of ethics, refrain in the future from making unsubstantiated claims which you refuse to back up (as in your claim that hypnotherapists should expect the possibility of an MI as an abreaction), as well as refuse to make personal attacks on the people who frequent these forums. This is especially true when you make false and misleading statements about people as you did concerning me above.

Annie, I have not edited your responses above. Rather, I have left them intact. With that, I am leaving this discussion simply because I have twice put forward questions based on statements you made and you have twice refused to respond. It is impossible to discuss things when people make statements and refuse to support them or apologize and retract them.

Again, I do hope you will continue to make posts to our forums. However, I hope you will be aware of the purpose of our forums and the fact that the purpose is not to promote anyone's personal agenda, including yours or mine. Therefore, in the future, posts which are not related to the subjects of our forum, make claims which are controversial and unsupported, or are personal attacks, will be edited or deleted.

As most people who use the internet know, it is very easy to set up one's own website these days. In fact, I used to teach students at USC exactly how to do that. Many places will even give you space to set up your own websites at no charge. I would respectfully suggest that if you have not done so already, you might consider setting up your own web site to further your agenda. You can even set up your own forums there. You won't have to worry about someone nagging you or editing you. When you're interested in discussing the topics of our forums, I invite you to come here.

[Terry]

Enuresis seems to have many different causes, some medical, some not, so it is the obvious course to get the medical ones checked first. If no problems are found, you can then feel quite free to proceed with a non medical proceedure, knowing you acted in an ethical manner.
If the client is either a teen or an adult, and no medical condition likely, stress is a frequent cause. I had a fifteen year old who was bedwetting because of the stress of living with an alcoholic who was violent, and the worry that he too would grow up just like dad...( he didn't, but the worry was there). A young lady on the other hand, was found to have a medical problem, and was reffered to a doctor. These were the only two adults I can remember seeing during my twenty one years of practise, so I'm afraid I can be of little help in this one. Children are a different kettle of fish, but stress is common with them once they reach school age and are still bedwetting..........Terry

[Annie]

Hello Don,

>Thanks very much for your response.
Thanks for sharing that, in fact, you have an agenda, and not one point of that agenda is to come here to discuss hypnotherapy or NLP.

Please, would you explain how your statement squares with your acknowledgement below,
this one : " On many instances in the past you have made some great contributions to this forum. "
~

> I fully admit that I have an agenda, too:
1) As a moderator of this forum, I feel it is my responsibility to help further the discussions here on hypnotherapy, NLP, esoterics and huna, etc. depending upon the main category of the forum.

and
I have contributed in discussions on : prenatal choices, autism, cancer, alzheimers,
etc. so clearly, I discuss various uses of hypnosis continuously.
~

2) It is my agenda to help people with questions by either answering them to the best of my ability or directing them, without prejudice, toward websites, books, locations, groups, or persons who can answer the questions. This means answering their questions rather than forcing upon them any particular viewpoint.

Fair enough.

then, in areas in which currently you lack both *Personal-insight, as well as Professional-experience* : you will allow BOTH such groups being presented here, so that a well-rounded discussion may take place, Don ?
~

> 3) It is my agenda to share information on these specific subjects that is, to the best of my ability, accurate, complete, and timely.

also Fair

so, what about in "specific subjects" where, with time, *New info is available for the Public* that you may not yet be aware of yourself ? You wouldn't want to deprive people of the Latest *safety*- research, right ?
~

> 4) As a moderator here I feel it is also my responsibility to prevent this forum from moving away from its goals of providing information, discussion, and answers about these subjects. This includes editing and/or deleting threads which are simply not related to the topics of this forum.

well, unless a human were to have the benefit of *God's ALL-knowingness*, which no mere mortal does obviously, whose 'Judgment-call' is capable of deciding ? "threads which are simply not related to the topics of this forum." ?
~

> For example, there are thousands of websites dedicated to the well-being of children.
Such topics can be discussed anywhere. If they are not specifically focused on the above topics in regard to the well-being of children, such discussions really don't belong here.

Yes, I am in full agreement with that, which is why I chose starting a seperate thread on it; *specifically* related to : "focused on the above topics in regard to the Well-being of children". You see Don,
I didn't start this thread, & another which Skip said he liked, from some 'simpleton-Mom' standpoint, who also just happens to have facilitated other parents' successfully Unschooling their children. I have, on recommendation, also helped all sorts of other children thru some tough challenges.

And this being a Group where parents have been kown to come here looking for help of various kinds on their child(ren)'s behalf, what if something being posted here, is just what they may want ?
~

>Similarly, while the discussion of the "best" laundry detergent, abortion, or the distance to the nearest galaxy might interest many people, they do not belong here either. Nor do personal attacks belong here.

Right, and
since I don't know anybody having discussed "laundry-detergent, or galactic distances" here - most surely, this was not intended as a personal Belittlement, right - Don ?


> On many instances in the past you have made some great contributions to this forum. I hope you continue to do so.

as soon as I have some extra time available in my very very buzzzy Day-schedule, I will address this exchange we had in here more directly - specifically how it relates to the "SAFETY of child-clients" in a professional Practice. (because obviously, if their Safety isn't 1st. being assured, nothing else will matter)
~

>I also hope that you will stick to the subjects of these forums

so, over 100+ discussions of "Derren Browne's magical tricks" are more Topical, Don ?, than

whether or not *a child is safe entrusted to a Practitioner* ...

so, what *specifically* are the subjects of these Forums, then ?, would you please explain this in greater detail ?
~

> and, with the highest of ethics, refrain in the future from making unsubstantiated claims which you refuse to back up (as in your claim that hypnotherapists should expect the possibility of an MI as an abreaction).

When I spoke of "abreactions" such as these, I was referring to, especially, " Guided imagery, by Direct suggestion "- methods being randomly used. Since such Practitioners (as a rule, from what I've both witnessed, plus continue reading) do not bother checking-into life-events of their clients, and therefore are unaware of what may, or may not, have been a traumatic event in their lives, dire "abreactions" have been known to happen. for example :
Practitioner : " ... and as you lie here, just imagine now a wonderful wave of Relaxation washing over you, just like you can experience at the beach with wonderful waves of Water ... (& sometimes, they'll use Head-phones with a cd-playing the sounds of tide-waves flowing & ebbing). Now, granted, for alot of people this, plus many many others similar " Guided imagery, by Direct suggestion "- methods, will lull people into sleep.
BUT also -
people for whom such will send them back into having experienced an MI while drowning previously, or a CVA in some other experience, will then be forced to re-live that experience. AND

Don, I'm not the only person with such concerns, FAR from it ! ... There are several dozen other Hypnotists, who all of us, have such "failures" laid on our door-steps on a regular basis - yet, we realize that there is little we can really do to *protect the General-public* other than to just mention it wherever we post in participation, and hope that Practitioners so engaged will *Care enough about their clients* to START paying attention, and change their ways to more successful means. Fair enough ?
~

> Annie, I have not edited your responses above. Rather, I have left them intact. With that, I am leaving this discussion simply because I have twice put forward questions based on statements you made and you have twice refused to respond.

Well, I have been counselled (obviously wisely so) : "the Instant you agree spiraling-down into somebody else's argument set-up for but 1 reason of ensnaring/entrapping you, you have Lost.
Better to stay-away from people whose Chief interest it is playing >1 ups-manship< the objective being to publically destroy you ". Don, this having happened 4 times in 2 years,
how do you expect me to *trust* such not being continued ?

in this "MI-"instance, being 1 of numerous "safety-issues", I will trust you will refrain from this >1 ups-manship< game I referred to above; and have my Trust not abused, again.
~

> It is impossible to discuss things when people make statements and refuse to support them or apologize and retract them.

Now, you see : You're doing it again, demanding *i* "apologize & retract" my above statements. Why ? you don't like the TRUTH as countless clients have experienced them in Practitioner's offices ? Why would you deny this being said, so - in the hopes that some of them may just sit-up & take Notice ?, saying : " Geeze, I certainly don't want to Lead any of my clients into such a disastrous experience ! ... maybe I can avail myself of additional *safe AND successful* Trainings "

Don, even Merlin & EC, in this "cancer" - thread we shared have agreed how vastly most " Hypnosis-trainings" don't prepare practitioners adequately enough for "stopping biting nails", let alone conditions more serious, and certainly NOT (God forbid !) *Leading a cancer-sufferer's self-Healing*. I mean, we are talking people's *continuing Life* here, certainly you are aware of that, Don - right ?
~

> Again, I do hope you will continue to make posts to our forums. However, I hope you will be aware of the purpose of our forums and the fact that the purpose is not to promote anyone's personal agenda, including yours or mine. Therefore, in the future, posts which are not related to the subjects of our forum, make claims which are controversial and unsupported, or are personal attacks, will be edited or deleted.

OK; so - how can we set-up a "Site" ? where people who have been harmed by the above means, can
come & feedback: " Hey, he/she said " oh, sure, I've trained under the Best, & your problem is a cinch; & I can cure this in no time. Just pay the fee " - well, now, I'm back on Chemo & Radiation, and it was a total waste of my $$$ & time " ...
~

> When you're interested in discussing the topics of our forums, I invite you to come here.

really, Don, I am *not* just idly wasting my time, dreaming this schtuff up.

In fact, Steve can tell you how many times (as I don't have time to post during most days) he finds me in the morning after I've written a post like this all night, "exhausted" so then, we can't do our classes together because I have to go to sleep !

I care about people sincerely, Don !
I care about teaching our students *what they want to Learn*, Don.
I care about other people paining *no more*, Don.
I care about the State our planet is in, Don.
In fact, I cared so much about others in years past, I was having oodles of fun running here, & running there, (erroneously) thinking " geeze, my Heavenly father knows just how much I care so if I don't get sleep for 20 years, that is OK as I just know that He will hold me in the hollow of His hand, and I can just keep going *helping everybody else*.
I didn't stop to think long enough about how I was still bound by certain Natural laws like everybody else on the planet, namely *sleep EVERY day* : I was having *too much Fun*. Well, 1 fine day, it all came to a halt ...

so, accuse me of anything you want, but I do know this : Dozens of *high recommendations* about how I have, in fact, helped other people you can not destroy, as much as you may succeed in this group here. And
those people encountering me on a daily basis, *face-to-face* have a totally-different perception of me than is being chosen painted in here.

so, let me ask you again : Will you, in fact, give *CLIENTS, and their Advocates* an equal chance to tell their side of the story ?

Thank you sincerely,

Annie

[Don]

Annie: Hello Don,

Don:Thanks very much for your response.
Thanks for sharing that, in fact, you have an agenda, and not one point of that agenda is to come here to discuss hypnotherapy or NLP.

Annie: Please, would you explain how your statement squares with your acknowledgement below: " On many instances in the past you have made some great contributions to this forum. "

It is always possible to write to a topic instead of pushing an agenda.

Don: I fully admit that I have an agenda, too:
1) As a moderator of this forum, I feel it is my responsibility to help further the discussions here...

Annie: and I have contributed in discussions on : prenatal choices, autism, cancer, alzheimers, etc. so clearly, I discuss various uses of hypnosis continuously.

You post on a variety of topics. Even if I don't agree with some or all of a post, that does not mean the post isn't good.

Don:2) It is my agenda to help people with questions by either answering them to the best of my ability or directing them, without prejudice, toward websites, books, locations, groups, or persons who can answer the questions. This means answering their questions rather than forcing upon them any particular viewpoint.

Annie: Fair enough. then, in areas in which currently you lack both *Personal-insight, as well as Professional-experience* : you will allow BOTH such groups being presented here, so that a well-rounded discussion may take place, Don ?

All sides can post here. I have never edited or deleted a post because I didn't like the information in that post (excluding advertisements). Annie, I would absolutely love to have you present ideas and concepts that either agree with others or challenge them. If someone tried insulting you for doing this, I would edit out that insult or, if that's all the post was, I would delete it.

Don: 3) It is my agenda to share information on these specific subjects that is, to the best of my ability, accurate, complete, and timely.

Annie: also Fair so, what about in "specific subjects" where, with time, *New info is available for the Public* that you may not yet be aware of yourself? You wouldn't want to deprive people of the Latest *safety*- research, right ?

We want all of the latest information made available if it is on the topics which we focus on in these forums.

Don: 4) As a moderator here I feel it is also my responsibility to prevent this forum from moving away from its goals of providing information, discussion, and answers about these subjects. This includes editing and/or deleting threads which are simply not related to the topics of this forum.

Annie: well, unless a human were to have the benefit of *God's ALL-knowingness*, which no mere mortal does obviously, whose 'Judgment-call' is capable of deciding ? "threads which are simply not related to the topics of this forum." ?

The judgements are made by Matt, Skip, and myself.

Don: For example, there are thousands of websites dedicated to the well-being of children. Such topics can be discussed anywhere. If they are not specifically focused on the above topics in regard to the well-being of children, such discussions really don't belong here.

Annie: Yes, I am in full agreement with that, which is why I chose starting a seperate thread on it; *specifically* related to : "focused on the above topics in regard to the Well-being of children". You see Don,
I didn't start this thread, & another which Skip said he liked, from some 'simpleton-Mom' standpoint, who also just happens to have facilitated other parents' successfully Unschooling their children. I have, on recommendation, also helped all sorts of other children thru some tough challenges.

Respectfully, Annie, take a look at what I posted and what you posted. I said some topics were not appropriate for our forums. It doesn't matter how interesting they might be. I did not denounce the topics.

In your post above, you start talking about some "simpleton-Mom." Respectfully, you seem to be presenting an "if it doesn't belong here it must be stupid or bad in your eyes" attitude. Not true. It just wouldn't belong here.

Annie: And this being a Group where parents have been kown to come here looking for help of various kinds on their child(ren)'s behalf, what if something being posted here, is just what they may want ?

Then by all means reply! However, that does NOT mean you--or anyone else--should insult other posters.

Don: Similarly, while the discussion of the "best" laundry detergent, abortion, or the distance to the nearest galaxy might interest many people, they do not belong here either. Nor do personal attacks belong here.

Annie: Right, and since I don't know anybody having discussed "laundry-detergent, or galactic distances" here - most surely, this was not intended as a personal Belittlement, right - Don ?

Saying that some topics don't belong here is not a belittlement. It is a statement of fact.

Don: On many instances in the past you have made some great contributions to this forum. I hope you continue to do so.

Annie: as soon as I have some extra time available in my very very buzzzy Day-schedule, I will address this exchange we had in here more directly - specifically how it relates to the "SAFETY of child-clients" in a professional Practice. (because obviously, if their Safety isn't 1st. being assured, nothing else will matter)

Good. I hope you will. But it should be addressed toward the safety of child clients within hypnotherapy and NLP situations, not what happens in their schools or in other locations except as it directly relates to the subjects of our forums.

Don: I also hope that you will stick to the subjects of these forums

Annie: so, over 100+ discussions of "Derren Browne's magical tricks" are more Topical, Don ?, than whether or not *a child is safe entrusted to a Practitioner* ...

Brown professes to use NLP and hypnosis. Therefore, he is an appropriate subject. People have asked for the NLP and hypnosis techniques he supposedly uses, so this is an appropriate subject. Revealing Brown's tricks is not an appropriate subject, and I have so posted.

Annie: so, what *specifically* are the subjects of these Forums, then ?, would you please explain this in greater detail ?

Sure:

Forum: Hypnosis/Hypnotism/Hypnotherapy
discussions on hypnosis, hypnotism and hypnotherapy

Forum:NLP
discussons on NLP

Forum: Seeking Advice, Assistance and/or Help
people who are looking for help or assistance or advice with problems either concerning or possibly aided by hypnotherapy, NLP, TLT, Huna, etc., should be posted and other people can reply.

Forum: Time Line Therapy (TM)
discussions of TLT

Forum:Esoterics/Huna/Energy Work
people who want to discuss these subjects and techniques. Esoterics is sort of a broad term, but generally applies to traditional esoteric metaphysical studies both eastern and western.

Forum: Hypnosis Scripts General Discussion and Hypnosis Scripts and Resources Links
for the posting and discussion of scripts for various situations.

Don: and, with the highest of ethics, refrain in the future from making unsubstantiated claims which you refuse to back up (as in your claim that hypnotherapists should expect the possibility of an MI as an abreaction).

Annie: When I spoke of "abreactions" such as these, I was referring to, especially, " Guided imagery, by Direct suggestion "- methods being randomly used. Since such Practitioners (as a rule, from what I've both witnessed, plus continue reading) do not bother checking-into life-events of their clients, and therefore are unaware of what may, or may not, have been a traumatic event in their lives, dire "abreactions" have been known to happen. for example: Practitioner : "...and as you lie here, just imagine now a wonderful wave of Relaxation washing over you, just like you can experience at the beach with wonderful waves of Water...(& sometimes, they'll use Head-phones with a cd-playing the sounds of tide-waves flowing & ebbing). Now, granted, for alot of people this, plus many many others similar " Guided imagery, by Direct suggestion "- methods, will lull people into sleep.
BUT also -
people for whom such will send them back into having experienced an MI while drowning previously, or a CVA in some other experience, will then be forced to re-live that experience.

Annie, you make a WONDERFUL point here. It's something I've seen and which hypnotherapists should be aware of. Some people do NOT relax with oceans. Others are terrified of forest scenes. To take a person into that imagery without first checking on how they feel about such scenes will not help in relaxation, induction, or deepening.

But I have never seen anyone have an MI as a result of imagery during hypnosis induction or deepening. Could you give some reference to this? Perhaps a web site or a book. The fact that we don't hear about this all the time implies that if they ever happen they are so rare as to be something a hypnotherapist should be aware of but not worry about.

It certainly is possible that a person can have an abreaction from suggestion or imagery. Generally, these range from becoming upset and exiting trance to having a severe psychological trauma. Hypnotherapists should be trained in how to deal with that.

Annie: Don, I'm not the only person with such concerns, FAR from it! There are several dozen other Hypnotists, who all of us, have such "failures" laid on our door-steps on a regular basis - yet, we realize that there is little we can really do to *protect the General-public* other than to just mention it wherever we post in participation, and hope that Practitioners so engaged will *Care enough about their clients* to START paying attention, and change their ways to more successful means. Fair enough ?

You see, Annie, and I'm leaving this in for a demonstration. Normally, I would have edited parts of this statement or all of it. That is not to hide information, but to prevent potentially false information from being spread.

1) You say "several dozen other Hypnotists" are worried about people having MIs as a result of direct suggestion or imagery (at least that is the interpretation I get from your statement). Who are these people? Without documentation, this is meaningless. It becomes a rumor which could be spread as fact instead of rumor.

2) You say, "have such "failures" laid on our door-steps on a regular basis," but there is no documentation for such claims. If it were 500 a month, the government should be shutting down the practice of hypnotherapy. If it is only one or two a year, that is a far better record than some psychologists or MDs have. If it is caused by certain practitioners, I'd want to know who they are so they can be exposed. But by making your broad attack here, you are insulting all hypnotherapists and spreading fear. So that you know, in the future, such claims (unless substantiated by documentation) will be deleted.

I agree that we do want all hypnotherapists and NLP practitioners to become better educated and better trained. I also believe that encouragement, education, and training work much better than accusing an unknown number of practitioners of causing MIs and doing bad jobs.

Don: Annie...I have twice put forward questions based on statements you made and you have twice refused to respond.

Annie: Well, I have been counselled (obviously wisely so) : "the Instant you agree spiraling-down into somebody else's argument set-up for but 1 reason of ensnaring/entrapping you, you have Lost. Better to stay-away from people whose Chief interest it is playing >1 ups-manship< the objective being to publically destroy you ". Don, this having happened 4 times in 2 years, how do you expect me to *trust* such not being continued?

I understand what you are saying, Annie. I've seen threads devolve from discussion on a topic to a "you said" "no you said" argument because of it.

The easiest way of avoiding this is for anyone not to make a statement as if it were a fact when they do not have proof or documentation to support it.

Annie: in this "MI-"instance, being 1 of numerous "safety-issues", I will trust you will refrain from this >1 ups-manship< game I referred to above; and have my Trust not abused, again.

When I asked for documentation of the MI issue, I did so for a couple of reasons.
1) I found it hard to believe. Respectfully, I still don't believe it. But if it's true, I want to know so I can enhance my knowledge and be even more aware of the possibility.
2) If it's true, I want to be able to warn other hypnotherapists, especially new ones, who may not be aware of this possibility.
3) If it's not true, I want to stop this story before it becomes popular fodder among internet rumor mongers.

At no time was there any desire to do one-upsmanship on this. I wanted to know then. I still want to know.

Don: It is impossible to discuss things when people make statements and refuse to support them or apologize and retract them.

Annie: Now, you see : You're doing it again, demanding *i* "apologize & retract" my above statements.

No, I did not. I said there was an either/or situation. When people make statements as facts, either they should be prepared to support those statements with documentation OR they should apologize and retract them.

Annie: Why? you don't like the TRUTH as countless clients have experienced them in Practitioner's offices ?

Annie, you are making claims without any sort of documentation. Who are these clients? Who are these practitioners? Truth requires evidence and documentation, not just one person's--your's, mine, or someone else's--say so.

I would also respectfully suggest that by describing what you think I don't like you are doing what I have been taught is called "mind reading." Hypnotherapists, as you know, are taught to avoid such mind reading. It's a form of jumping to conclusions which may or may not be accurate. If you are wondering why a person does something, it is better to ask the person why rather than guess as to the reason.

Annie: Why would you deny this being said, so - in the hopes that some of them may just sit-up & take Notice ?, saying : " Geeze, I certainly don't want to Lead any of my clients into such a disastrous experience ! ... maybe I can avail myself of additional *safe AND successful* Trainings "

All I am doing is asking for documentation of your claims.

Annie: Don, even Merlin & EC, in this "cancer" - thread we shared have agreed how vastly most " Hypnosis-trainings" don't prepare practitioners adequately enough for "stopping biting nails", let alone conditions more serious, and certainly NOT (God forbid !) *Leading a cancer-sufferer's self-Healing*. I mean, we are talking people's *continuing Life* here, certainly you are aware of that, Don - right ?

Yes. I believe that hypnosis trainings are beginings, not conclusions. Most of the ones I've seen advertised imply that you can do anything after a weekend or a week-long workshop. Those who have been practicing for some time know this is not true.

Don: Again, I do hope you will continue to make posts to our forums. However, I hope you will be aware of the purpose of our forums and the fact that the purpose is not to promote anyone's personal agenda, including yours or mine. Therefore, in the future, posts which are not related to the subjects of our forum, make claims which are controversial and unsupported, or are personal attacks, will be edited or deleted.

Annie: OK; so - how can we set-up a "Site" ? where people who have been harmed by the above means, can come & feedback: "Hey, he/she said" oh, sure, I've trained under the Best, & your problem is a cinch; & I can cure this in no time. Just pay the fee "- well, now, I'm back on Chemo & Radiation, and it was a total waste of my $$$ & time..."

If you want to set up a site contact your ISP. Most ISPs have space allocated for setting up individual web sites. You can also do a search for inexpensive ISPs.

Don: When you're interested in discussing the topics of our forums, I invite you to come here.

Annie: really, Don, I am *not* just idly wasting my time, dreaming this schtuff up.

Annie, I never said you were. I am saying that posts here are to be on the topics of these forums.

Annie: In fact, Steve can tell you how many times (as I don't have time to post during most days) he finds me in the morning after I've written a post like this all night, "exhausted" so then, we can't do our classes together because I have to go to sleep !
I care about people sincerely, Don !
I care about teaching our students *what they want to Learn*, Don.
I care about other people paining *no more*, Don.
I care about the State our planet is in, Don.

I have no doubt that you do. So do I. But this is not the "discuss anything you want in our forums" web site. These are the forums for hypnosis.com and NLP.com. Those are our subjects.

Annie: In fact, I cared so much about others in years past, I was having oodles of fun running here, & running there, (erroneously) thinking "geeze, my Heavenly father knows just how much I care so if I don't get sleep for 20 years, that is OK as I just know that He will hold me in the hollow of His hand, and I can just keep going *helping everybody else*. I didn't stop to think long enough about how I was still bound by certain Natural laws like everybody else on the planet, namely *sleep EVERY day* : I was having *too much Fun*. Well, 1 fine day, it all came to a halt ...

I have no doubt that you are dedicated, Annie. That is not what is in question. Just stay on the topics of our forums and disagree without insulting others.

Annie: so, accuse me of anything you want, but I do know this: Dozens of *high recommendations* about how I have, in fact, helped other people you can not destroy, as much as you may succeed in this group here. And
those people encountering me on a daily basis, *face-to-face* have a totally-different perception of me than is being chosen painted in here.

Annie, the only thing you have been "accused" of is posting topics not covered in our forums, insulting others, and making claims which you have refused to back up with any evidence or documentation. This has nothing to do with your abilities or dedication.

In the statement above you are accusing me of trying to destroy people and this group. This is your last insult here, Annie, your very last. I apologize for repeating myself, but I really want this to be clear: any more insults and your privilege to post to these forums will cease.

Annie: so, let me ask you again : Will you, in fact, give *CLIENTS, and their Advocates* an equal chance to tell their side of the story ?

Thank you sincerely,

Annie

We are open to the discussion of anything on the topics of these forums. We expect people to behave like adults. That means no wild accusations, no insults, supporting claims with documentation. This means strident disagreement without being disagreeable.