Why is Shamanism such a trigger?

[SusanBlack]

Hi,

I am wondering after reading past posts on the topic of shamanism, why is there such a strong response?

Being someone who has been drawn to the healing aspects of shamanism, both for myself (hidden unconscious fears, desires, transformation--especially into the animal world) I am wondering what it is about the traditions or maybe its the label of shaman, or the debate of psychedelics that gets people fired up?!

To me, I am so much more connected to nature (DO NOT CALL ME A HIPPIE--ohhh I got defensive) Seriously, when I partake in ceremonial drumming with a drum that I hand made and blessed in Native tradition, and open my consciousness to expand beyond any physical limits, it is amazing beyond words. The wisdom that can be accessed by ancestors and other beings including the four-legged and the winged-ones are the secrets that shamans have utilized for the healing of the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual bodies for thousands of years. I simply plug in to that wisdom that is available to anyone.

I have not used psychedelics, because I have not needed to. No judgement one way or another.

I am not attached to the term shaman at all. Like any name or symbol, it evokes an image or system.

Thanks,
Susan

[Merlin]

Probably:

>or the debate of psychedelics

[Henry123]

It depends also on how you define "shamanism" Susan.
Theres traditional shamanism and theres the contemporary New Age stuff.
Originally the term shaman in the English language came from the Evenk peoples of Siberia.

[SusanBlack]

For me, the whole point of true shamanism is to know that there is no difference when it comes to consciousness. It only takes the desire to breakthrough the limitations of the mind, the physical reality, and the ego to shapeshift or move in and out of the lower world, upper world, alternate dimensions and anywhere else the soul wants to go.

It is also about the ability to evolve, learn, assist others in their healing , ask questions, grow spiritually, know what herbs and symbols to heal the physical body, connect with the ancient ones, and more................

If I chose to limit myself by saying that I was not a shaman because I am not from Siberia, then I would be dishonoring the path that I have chosen. And I don't call myself a shaman, ever. Yet, this is the core of my essence, a respect and commitment to the shamanic path. I am creating at every moment the magical, mysterious and mythical wonders of my universe.

Thanks for sharing,

Susan

[Poodle]

You may want to wait until Sky logs on. She is an expert in that field.

The reason it is a "trigger" is with all things unknown.

[SusanBlack]

I look forward to hearing from Sky.

[Henry123]

If I chose to limit myself by saying that I was not a shaman because I am not from Siberia, then I would be dishonoring the path that I have chosen. ..

And I don't call myself a shaman, ever.

Huh???? Thats sounds contradictory????:confused:

[Henry123]

Could you clarify.:confused:

[Poodle]

Please reread if you have a question. It makes perfect sense if one understands about what she is writing. Out here we have the "medicine man" which is another word for Shaman of the Native Indians. That Shaman practices very much like our poster wishes to practice. I'll e Sky and ask her to join in. Anne

[Sky]

I think Susan and I are much on the same page.

I have been in more than a few situations where a person from one culture or another will claim the word “shaman,” then take offense when it is used, then disown the word in the very next breath.

Very simply, and probably not as eloquently as some could post, I have learned through my studies and work that the word shaman is a great word to use for any “healer” who uses the unseen to work with others. Now, the unseen can mean many things to many people and that is the point. (Some, and I have to repeat, SOME cultures use psychedelics, but only a few. Some use physical endurance, some simple trance, some drumming, some even spinning. Some, nothing but their thought.)

Websters says… : Main Entry: sha·man Function: noun
Etymology: ultimately from Evenki (Tungusic language of Siberia) samAn
1 : a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events

Anyway, for instance, in Huna, a shaman is also known as a Kahuna or a Kupua and is often described as a Healer of Relationships. The relationship between man and nature, man and spirit, man and man, man and energy, etc… Leaves it sorta wide open and I like that.

The actual word does indeed come from Siberia, but as Susan said, it really has become a universal term. Much like the term Doctor can mean anything from a medical doctor, to a vet, to a scientist with a PhD.

I agree with Susan as to the evolution of the “process” and take a lot of flak for that among some of my peers. Personally, I don’t care what they think.. LOL. and will explain to anyone who cares to listen that if man evolves and science evolves and plants evolve, etc, I can’t imagine why we would think that spirituality wouldn’t.

I also believe that tools from ancient shamanic practices are still wonderful for today, but sometimes NEED to be updated. Like meditation. I’m a single mom of 4 with 3 other full time jobs and I don’t have time to go sit on a mountain top and om. For me, Huna gives me tools that work just as good, if not better, and are more compatible with today and realistic for a modern Shaman.

That’s my 2 cents. For the record, I usually don’t get into this “debate” about the word, because often it’s a waste of time as the defenders of the “word” don’t hear people like Susan, poodle and I.. but I was asked to come put my 2 cents in…. LOL..

All good things,
Sky

[Poodle]

Thank you very much for your input. I'm sure it was a help to Susan. Hugs, Anne

[Henry123]

Please reread if you have a question. It makes perfect sense if one understands about what she is writing. Out here we have the "medicine man" which is another word for Shaman of the Native Indians. That Shaman practices very much like our poster wishes to practice. I'll e Sky and ask her to join in. Anne
From what I read it sounds like a New Age contemporary opinion of shamanism. Now nothing wrong with an ecclectic view of religion.
But also keep in mind historical shamanism is based on customs.

Yes most Native people prefer to use the term "medicine man/person". Most dont like to use the term shaman.

[Henry123]

I have been in more than a few situations where a person from one culture or another will claim the word “shaman,” then take offense when it is used, then disown the word in the very next breath.

Which culture are you refering to?

[Henry123]

I have learned through my studies and work that the word shaman is a great word to use for any “healer” who uses the unseen to work with others.

To me it depends on what what they specifically do. I personally wouldnt refer a psychic healer or a medium etc. as a "shaman".

[Henry123]

The actual word does indeed come from Siberia, but as Susan said, it really has become a universal term. Much like the term Doctor can mean anything from a medical doctor, to a vet, to a scientist with a PhD.

Mainly from a New Age Western/Euro centric view of the word.
Historically shamans (generic) did not just practice healing they also uphold relgious customs & rites and casted spells etc.

[Henry123]

I also believe that tools from ancient shamanic practices are still wonderful for today, but sometimes NEED to be updated. Like meditation. I’m a single mom of 4 with 3 other full time jobs and I don’t have time to go sit on a mountain top and om. For me, Huna gives me tools that work just as good, if not better, and are more compatible with today and realistic for a modern Shaman.

"ancient shamanic practices" is a very broad term.

In places like industralized S. Korea as busy as they are still practice their form of shamanism in a traditinal manner.The same goes with Japanese Shintoism etc etc.

[Henry123]

hymmmm :rolleyes:
I think I would say that there are mainly two large branches of shamanism (lack of a better term).
One being contemporary New Age neo shamanism.*
The other being historical tribal forms of shamanism.*

(* broadly speaking of course)

[lion1]

In my opinion shamanism is a very broad topic but i feel the true essence of a definition is any individual who lives in two worlds...that of the illusion and that of reality..they live as one entity able to survive in both dimensions,it does not mean that you have to take the peyote cacti or datura roots as these visionary skills can be attained by the power of thought....some believe that you are chosen ...some not...but believe me in that the tasks involved in seeking the truth has many sharp crevices before one has no fear of it all and surrenders to the clarity of the truth

[Sky]

Well Said... thank you!

[SusanBlack]

I do appreciate ALL the input on this topic. If perception is projection, then I certainly resonate with Sky and Poodle and feel rapport with them. Like "sisters" and I align my beliefs and likes with them. I am pretty sure we would have a lot of fun together too!! This is the "One" universal mind of consciousness that connects everything and everyone. (Chunk up)

Then, there are parts of me represented as Henry, that fragments and needs to understand by putting things in categories. This separates me from the "One" but does have a purpose for getting specific. (Chunk down)

If I can integrate the two minds with the higher self, then balance will be acheived. And I am seeking balance for sure!!

Each voice is my voice, will I listen?

I just realized that Shamanism is very Values level 2 (Master Prac.). I did not make that connection before. I really love tribal systems; the ceremonies, the cycles and rhythms of the earth, the moon and planets, honoring of Gods and Goddesses, healing systems using herbs, flowers and plants, working with the elements--especially fire as this is my sun sign, coming together in community with other like-minded individuals just creates such happiness in me!!

Thank you again for taking time out of your day and responding.

Susan

[Henry123]

But why not include chaos magic as well? Why not Kemetic religions too etc.?

[Henry123]

...it does not mean that you have to take the peyote cacti or datura roots as these visionary skills can be attained by the power of thought....

The question is are these visions the same?

[Henry123]

(Since the issue of spirituality seem to have been brought up.)

Are you really closer to the "one" or "universal consciousness" (whatever one wants to refer it as etc.) if you deliberatly ignore that there is Real suffering and social injustices in the world?
Something to think about.

[Don]

Henry, if I took an axe and cut off your arm, is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm going to assume you think it would be bad, very bad.

But what if that arm were gangrenous and the only way to save your life was by removing your arm and the only tool I had was an axe? I'm going to assume that my saving your life by cutting off your arm would be good, very good.

Where something is good or bad is not determined by something which it "is," but rather by our interpretation of events. Acts and activities are simply that. Benedict Arnold was a traitor to the rebelling colonies, but a hero to the British. A terrorist to one country is a freedom fighter to another.

If I see someone being tortured, and I intervene, perhaps I am preventing that person from learning from his or her karma, resulting in many more lifetimes of being tortured. I assuage my feelings of guilt by temporarily "helping" a person resulting in years and years of torture. How did I help?

If someone is facing "social injustice" and I get rid of it for them, how many more lifetimes are they going to go through before they figure out they must act in support of themselves? How many hundreds or thousands of years have I delayed their evolution?

On the other hand, focusing on what we perceive as "suffering" and "social injustice" often results in sadness, feelings of futility, and despair, all of which move us further away from closeness to "the 'one' or 'universal consciousness.'"

So in answer to your question, deliberately ignoring what you perceive as "real suffering and social injustices" will, indeed, bring a person closer to the "one" or "universal consciousness."

A person dwelling on what they perceive as "real suffering and social injustices" will draw them away from such spirituality.

A person who comes from a point of love and compassion and works to help others without focusing on what he or she will get out of it ("Ooh. I fed the poor on Thanksgiving. I'm soooo spiritual!"), and as simply the what they believe they should do are moving "closer to the one."

[Henry123]

Where something is good or bad is not determined by something which it "is," but rather by our interpretation of events.

That was what I wanted to point out with Susan Black's commet about "this is the one universal mind that connects everything and everyone " remark. It is preceptions.

[Henry123]

If I see someone being tortured, and I intervene, perhaps I am preventing that person from learning from his or her karma, resulting in many more lifetimes of being tortured. I assuage my feelings of guilt by temporarily "helping" a person resulting in years and years of torture. How did I help?


I suppose we should help the torturer then? Because maybe by not assisting in the torture you are not helping the person learn??? (your damn if you do and your damn if you dont. Its a catch 22)

[Henry123]

If someone is facing "social injustice" and I get rid of it for them, how many more lifetimes are they going to go through before they figure out they must act in support of themselves? How many hundreds or thousands of years have I delayed their evolution?

Are you presuming that those facing social unjustice are willing participants?
How about those victims of genocide? How about when Blacks were living under Aparthied or under Segregation in the U.S????

Am I to believe we shoudnt stop criminals from committing crimes becauase it may delay someone's evolution? Should we stand by and let a purse snatcher mug a woman? Or let illegal arms dealers to continue to sell arms? etc.

[Henry123]

On the other hand, focusing on what we perceive as "suffering" and "social injustice" often results in sadness, feelings of futility, and despair, all of which move us further away from closeness to "the 'one' or 'universal consciousness.'"

So in answer to your question, deliberately ignoring what you perceive as "real suffering and social injustices" will, indeed, bring a person closer to the "one" or "universal consciousness."

A person dwelling on what they perceive as "real suffering and social injustices" will draw them away from such spirituality.


Would that mean that we should have looked the other way when something tragic like Katrini or 9/11 happens? :confused:

[Henry123]

(Some thought provoking ideals to think about. :rolleyes: )

[Don]

Originally Posted by Don
If I see someone being tortured, and I intervene, perhaps I am preventing that person from learning from his or her karma, resulting in many more lifetimes of being tortured. I assuage my feelings of guilt by temporarily
"helping" a person resulting in years and years of torture. How did I help?

I suppose we should help the torturer then? Because maybe by not assisting in the torture you are not helping the person learn??? (your damn if you do and your damn if you dont. Its a catch 22)

No. If you follow the entire train of thought instead of picking points out of context you'll see the point is that according to this theory, since you don't know, you leave them to experience and generate their own karma.

No catch 22 at all if you don't take things out of context and don't think in an either or, all or nothing fashion.

[Don]

Originally Posted by Don
If someone is facing "social injustice" and I get rid of it for them, how many more lifetimes are they going to go through before they figure out they must act in support of themselves? How many hundreds or thousands of years have I delayed their evolution?

Are you presuming that those facing social unjustice are willing participants?

No. Most people who commit crimes are not willing to be punished for it. But the crime was committed and the punishment is theirs.

How about those victims of genocide? How about when Blacks were living under Aparthied or under Segregation in the U.S????

How about them? What are you going to do, mope in despair for the rest of your life because you think someone, somewhere, is suffering? People who end up feeling that way end up as nihilists or attempting suicide due to what they perceive to be the futility and hopelessness of life? How have you helped anyone by whining? How many hours have you worked gratis at charities this year? How many homeless people have you invited into your home for a few months?

Am I to believe we shoudnt stop criminals from committing crimes becauase it may delay someone's evolution? Should we stand by and let a purse snatcher mug a woman? Or let illegal arms dealers to continue to sell arms? etc.

To live in a society requires de facto agreement with a "social contract." Break the contract and you receive (relatively) instant karma.

What have you done to stop "illegal arms dealers?" And if they are illegally selling those arms to people fighting for democracy and freedom, would you still stop them? Oh wait. They're on the other side, so they're really terrorists.

Should we stand by and let somebody mug someone else? That's their karma to deal with. Personally, if I saw it taking place I would step in instantly and incur the negative karmic results of my attack.

[Don]

Would that mean that we should have looked the other way when something tragic like Katrini or 9/11 happens? :confused:

What preconceptions do you have to insist that this was tragic? Why do you assume it would be necessary to look away?

[Don]

(Some thought provoking ideals to think about. :rolleyes: )

Yes, what you have presented is a completely Western idea which, according to Eastern spiritual traditions, will result in lifetimes of karma and unhappiness in this lifetime, something that would take you away from a spiritual life.

So the question is, can a person accept concepts of karma and spirituality at all? If so, is it right to take a few and ignore the difficult parts?

[Henry123]

What preconceptions do you have to insist that this was tragic? Why do you assume it would be necessary to look away?
You did not answer my question.

I assume people screaming in terror and dieing is tragic. I also assume there were also alot of families who has lost love ones.

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don
No. Most people who commit crimes are not willing to be punished for it. But the crime was committed and the punishment is theirs.

Of course most who commit crimes are not willing to be punish with it.
Wether they get punsi by karma is debaitible.

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don
How about them? What are you going to do, mope in despair for the rest of your life because you think someone, somewhere, is suffering? People who end up feeling that way end up as nihilists or attempting suicide due to what they perceive to be the futility and hopelessness of life? How have you helped anyone by whining? How many hours have you worked gratis at charities this year? How many homeless people have you invited into your home for a few months?

No one said they should mope in despair "for the rest of their life". Those are your insertions and words. (I dont pretend that theres aboslutely No Sufferring in this world. I at least acknowledge its existence but I dont dwell in it ether.)
[I dont think the Jewish community has forgotten what happen to them in Nazi Germany and how people looked the other way when they were being persecuted.]

Did I say I was whining? Lets keep this from getting too personal.
As for charities one can only do so much. And yes I actually do charity work too.

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don
To live in a society requires de facto agreement with a "social contract." Break the contract and you receive (relatively) instant karma.

Yes society requieres a de facto agree with a social contract.
Each society has its own set of laws and values. In some countries like Saudi Arabia it has a strong based in Islamic law. Women can be stoned to death for commiting adultery. Wether 'they' or 'whom' receives "instant karma" is debaitible.

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don
What have you done to stop "illegal arms dealers?" And if they are illegally selling those arms to people fighting for democracy and freedom, would you still stop them? Oh wait. They're on the other side, so they're really terrorists.

(I was giving an example) Its not me who is making the claim of 'delaying someone's evolution' in my post.
(btw some people are against the illegal trade of arms altogether.)

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don
Should we stand by and let somebody mug someone else? That's their karma to deal with. Personally, if I saw it taking place I would step in instantly and incur the negative karmic results of my attack.
(Whose karma are you refering too???? The mugger's karma or the person whose being mugged????)
Maybe the person being mug has robbed the mugger in a past life and is paying for it? Or maybe the mugger has just created "karma" by robing a victim who has no past life connection to?
Or maybe you owe a karmic debt to the victim from a past life and you were meant to help her?

[Don]

No one said they should mope in despair "for the rest of their life". Those are your insertions and words. (I dont pretend that theres aboslutely No Sufferring in this world. I at least acknowledge its existence but I dont dwell in it ether.)

But then why did you ask about it if you don't dwell on it? All of your posts here have focused on the futility of existence due to what you consider suffering. Keep at it and the result is what I stated: despondency, nihilism, depression, etc.


[I dont think the Jewish community has forgotten what happen to them in Nazi Germany and how people looked the other way when they were being persecuted.]

Did I say I was whining? Lets keep this from getting too personal.

Not making discussions personal is exactly how the Nazis were able to almost destroy Europe's Jews. They weren't talking about your kindly neighbor, they were talking about "those people, them."

As for charities one can only do so much. And yes I actually do charity work too.

Exactly one of my points. We can only do so much and merely complaining about how terrible things are accomplishes nothing. Focusing on nothing but supposed world evil by whatever name, instead of dealing with your life, creates despondency and a simply question: why didn't you do more?

[Don]

(I was giving an example) Its not me who is making the claim of 'delaying someone's evolution' in my post.
(btw some people are against the illegal trade of arms altogether.)


No, you didn't. You made a post asking about spirituality and I responded to it.

I find it interesting that the people who are most vocally against the illegal trade of arms are those making a fortune through the legal trade of arms. The funny thing is, whether you're shot in the head by a weapon sold legally or illegally, you still end up maimed or dead.

[Henry123]

Yes, what you have presented is a completely Western idea which, according to Eastern spiritual traditions, will result in lifetimes of karma and unhappiness in this lifetime, something that would take you away from a spiritual life.

Lets not impose absolute theological dogmas here.

Sure, many Christians believe in doing charity work based on their interpretation of the Christain bible. "you shall know them for their work" heal the sick" etc. Sure, Muslims (in particular in Saudi Arabia) believe that the poor should have least have food and water and access to the Koran etc. Sure some Hindus view that if your born in a lower caste its was because of past karma.Sure, you have the Manichean ideal of transmigration which is not karma. Sure, Buddhist do not believe in transmigration but rebirth. etc.

The bottom line is that know 100% for sure which is true.

[Don]

(Whose karma are you refering too???? The mugger's karma or the person whose being mugged????)

"Their" is plural, so it was referring to both of them.

Maybe the person being mug has robbed the mugger in a past life and is paying for it? Or maybe the mugger has just created "karma" by robing a victim who has no past life connection to?
Or maybe you owe a karmic debt to the victim from a past life and you were meant to help her?

If I "help" by interfering, I incur karma by my actions. There is no "meant to" in karma. Karma has nothing to do with intent or will, good or bad. It is strictly about your actions.

If you kick someone in the teeth because you don't like them or if you accidentally kick someone in the teeth, you get karma. Intent has nothing to do with it.

Respectfully, if you are interested in karma you should learn more about it from original sources rather that the superficial discussions some modern books present.

[Unregisteredz]

Respectfully, if you are interested in karma you should learn more about it from original sources rather that the superficial discussions some modern books present.Would you recommend any specific sources?

[Don]

Of course I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Every day, people die around the world. It is exactly as was intended. The body dies, and if you believe in it, the soul continues in some way. If you were born, you're going to die. Death is not tragic, it is the necessary result of life.

If we have attachments--to the person who has died--we're going to have a lot of emotions. We may feel that it was, as you say, tragic. More than likely we call it that because we miss that person and are fearful because we don't have a sure answer to the greatest question of all: what happens after death?

Buddha felt that man was bound by various attachments in worldly life. Friends and relations were the cause of this bondage. Various human relationships are the cause of sorrow in the world. He said: Ahimsa Paramodharma (Non-hurting is the Supreme Dharma. No one should cause hurt to others by speech, action, or in any other way.

[Don]

Try
Karma Manual by Dr. Jonn Mumford
Freedom from the Bonds of Karma by Swami Rama
Karma Sannyasa by Swami Satyananda Saraswati and Swami Satyasangananda Saraswati
The Bhagavad Gita

[Henry123]

Originally Posted by Don


What have you done to stop "illegal arms dealers?" And if they are illegally selling those arms to people fighting for democracy and freedom, would you still stop them? Oh wait. They're on the other side, so they're really terrorists.


Did my original post get edited?

[Henry123]

No, you didn't. You made a post asking about spirituality and I responded to it.

I find it interesting that the people who are most vocally against the illegal trade of arms are those making a fortune through the legal trade of arms. The funny thing is, whether you're shot in the head by a weapon sold legally or illegally, you still end up maimed or dead.

I still cant find my original post. How strange.

[Henry123]

"Their" is plural, so it was referring to both of them.


If I "help" by interfering, I incur karma by my actions. There is no "meant to" in karma. Karma has nothing to do with intent or will, good or bad. It is strictly about your actions.

If you kick someone in the teeth because you don't like them or if you accidentally kick someone in the teeth, you get karma. Intent has nothing to do with it.

Respectfully, if you are interested in karma you should learn more about it from original sources rather that the superficial discussions some modern books present.
It all depends on who you speak to as well.

[Henry123]

Of course I answered your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Every day, people die around the world. It is exactly as was intended. The body dies, and if you believe in it, the soul continues in some way. If you were born, you're going to die. Death is not tragic, it is the necessary result of life.

If we have attachments--to the person who has died--we're going to have a lot of emotions. We may feel that it was, as you say, tragic. More than likely we call it that because we miss that person and are fearful because we don't have a sure answer to the greatest question of all: what happens after death?

Buddha felt that man was bound by various attachments in worldly life. Friends and relations were the cause of this bondage. Various human relationships are the cause of sorrow in the world. He said: Ahimsa Paramodharma (Non-hurting is the Supreme Dharma. No one should cause hurt to others by speech, action, or in any other way.

What was my exact question then and in full context. And what post of your was I pretaining too (kindly in exact qoute and in full context).

[Censored]

It all depends on who you speak to as well.This happened to me earlier today. :(

[Censored]

This happened to me earlier today. :(Oops, no way to edit a post. :(

My response was referring to a post I made to Don earlier today that mysteriously disappeared earlie. It is not the first time this has happened and I doubt it will be the last. In fact, I think I remember there being more than a few complaints on this forum about posts being deleted/ censored.

[Henry123]

1) But then why did you ask about it if you don't dwell on it? All of your posts here have focused on the futility of existence due to what you consider suffering. Keep at it and the result is what I stated: despondency, nihilism, depression, etc.



2)Not making discussions personal is exactly how the Nazis were able to almost destroy Europe's Jews. They weren't talking about your kindly neighbor, they were talking about "those people, them."



3)Exactly one of my points. We can only do so much and merely complaining about how terrible things are accomplishes nothing. Focusing on nothing but supposed world evil by whatever name, instead of dealing with your life, creates despondency and a simply question: why didn't you do more?
1) Maybe we are misunderstanding each other here. I believe people do suffer and one may feel Momentary upset by it but one shouldnt continue to carry the baggage around.
2) Keep in mind many (not all) ordinary Germans stood by and did nothing when Jews were being beat up and killed on the street by mobs. Infact many ordinary Germans also were part of the violence.
3)I did not complain. I pointed out historic wrongs and how many ordinary people stood by and did nothing as it was happening. I believe one can Both deal with one personal life but one can also can step in and do their little part to help as well. It doesnt have to be one or the other both can be done too.

[Henry123]

Oops, no way to edit a post. :(

My response was referring to a post I made to Don earlier today that mysteriously disappeared earlie. It is not the first time this has happened and I doubt it will be the last. In fact, I think I remember there being more than a few complaints on this forum about posts being deleted/ censored.

I couldnt find some of the posts either.

As for books there are both Hindu and Buddhist ideals to look at. I've seen some sites where some difference on how various sects of Buddhism looked at karma. I would keep an open mind (not saying you arnt) on all religions.

[Censored]

Thanks Henry. :)

[Henry123]

Oops, no way to edit a post. :(

My response was referring to a post I made to Don earlier today that mysteriously disappeared earlie. It is not the first time this has happened and I doubt it will be the last. In fact, I think I remember there being more than a few complaints on this forum about posts being deleted/ censored.

I guess it would be pretty futile to post anything if things are disappearing.
:eek:

[Henry123]

Is it me or are posts disapearing????

[Censored]

Is it me or are posts disapearing????Are posts disappearing? Are posts being edited by someone other than the original poster? Who has the ability on this forum to do that?

Personally, I think Matt and Alex are on the board posting under cover if you know what I mean. Maybe we should blog about it?

Hey, I wonder how longer before this post too mysteriously disappears. :)

[Merlin]

When posts are deleted, they show up in the index, marked as deleted.

[Censored]

When posts are deleted, they show up in the index, marked as deleted.Are you making up truths Merlin? Where is this index you write about?

[Henry123]

Are posts disappearing? Are posts being edited by someone other than the original poster? Who has the ability on this forum to do that?

Personally, I think Matt and Alex are on the board posting under cover if you know what I mean. Maybe we should blog about it?

Hey, I wonder how longer before this post too mysteriously disappears. :)

I wouldnt be surprise.
Its an exercise in futility then. :p

[Henry123]

I'm just going to leave it alone.

[Censored]

Just today, two (2) of my posts from this thread were deleted without notice or explanation: http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?t=3039

I would conclude that the reason these posts were deleted was because they gave specific examples within that thread of Don putting words into peoples mouths and twisting those words to suite his agenda. I could be wrong though. Perhaps the person who deleted the posts would care to try and justify his/her actions?

[skip]

This has turned into one person hijacking the forum so they can vent their spleen.

Censored, whatever point you had to make, has been made as effectively as you were capable of making it.

You say I deleted a post unfairly.

OK, you win the day.

This section of the thread ends at this point, and attempts to continue it here, or in other threads, will be removed as they are found, until all parties realize the futility of it.

[skip]

All,

Deleted posts, or at least the header, only show up for forum Team Members and Moderators, not the general membership.

And yes 'censored' I deleted one of your posts today, for an explanation, and IMO more than you deserve, go to:

http://forum.hypnosis.com/showthread.php?p=29987#post29987

skip

[Don]

1) Maybe we are misunderstanding each other here. I believe people do suffer and one may feel Momentary upset by it but one shouldnt continue to carry the baggage around.
2) Keep in mind many (not all) ordinary Germans stood by and did nothing when Jews were being beat up and killed on the street by mobs. Infact many ordinary Germans also were part of the violence.
3)I did not complain. I pointed out historic wrongs and how many ordinary people stood by and did nothing as it was happening. I believe one can Both deal with one personal life but one can also can step in and do their little part to help as well. It doesnt have to be one or the other both can be done too.

1) "Momentary upset?" In the time it's taken me to write this, dozen of children have died of hunger. Several women have been raped. One has been murdered. Either an ethical philosophy sees this as the working of nature or there is constant concern. Only being upset for a moment makes you sound like an ideal politician! :-)

2) Exactly my point. They had been dehumanized and were no longer "your neighbor and friend," they were just "them" and "those people." That's why I rejected your suggestion that this should not be personal.

3) My dictionary defines complain as, "express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event." How does that differ from your "I pointed out historic wrongs and how many ordinary people stood by and did nothing as it was happening?"

So what are you, personally, doing to stop wars and end poverty other than expressing "dissatisfaction or annoyance" with them? And if that's what you're doing, how is that not complaining?

[Henry123]

1) "Momentary upset?" In the time it's taken me to write this, dozen of children have died of hunger. Several women have been raped. One has been murdered. Either an ethical philosophy sees this as the working of nature or there is constant concern. Only being upset for a moment makes you sound like an ideal politician! :-)

2) Exactly my point. They had been dehumanized and were no longer "your neighbor and friend," they were just "them" and "those people." That's why I rejected your suggestion that this should not be personal.

3) My dictionary defines complain as, "express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event." How does that differ from your "I pointed out historic wrongs and how many ordinary people stood by and did nothing as it was happening?"

So what are you, personally, doing to stop wars and end poverty other than expressing "dissatisfaction or annoyance" with them? And if that's what you're doing, how is that not complaining?

1) Nice try to take this out of context. You stated in a previous post about carrying emotional burdens for the rest of your life remark (roughly).

2) Once again you take my post out of context. Its when you started to make personal attacks on me on the board.

3) Its different because its "HISTORIC points". Meaning its pretaining to history. Its FACTUAL. Just like its a historic fact that slavery happen in the U.S. It was given as an example because you stated in a previous post about delaying evolution by thousands of years remark (roughly). Once again you have taken the post out of context of what was stated earliar in the entire post.

More than willing to take this up on another forum.

[Henry123]

This has turned into one person hijacking the forum so they can vent their spleen.

Censored, whatever point you had to make, has been made as effectively as you were capable of making it.

You say I deleted a post unfairly.

OK, you win the day.

This section of the thread ends at this point, and attempts to continue it here, or in other threads, will be removed as they are found, until all parties realize the futility of it.

Didnt see this.

[Don]

1) "Momentary upset?" In the time it's taken me to write this, dozen of children have died of hunger. Several women have been raped. One has been murdered. Either an ethical philosophy sees this as the working of nature or there is constant concern. Only being upset for a moment makes you sound like an ideal politician! :-)

2) Exactly my point. They had been dehumanized and were no longer "your neighbor and friend," they were just "them" and "those people." That's why I rejected your suggestion that this should not be personal.

3) My dictionary defines complain as, "express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event." How does that differ from your "I pointed out historic wrongs and how many ordinary people stood by and did nothing as it was happening?"

So what are you, personally, doing to stop wars and end poverty other than expressing "dissatisfaction or annoyance" with them? And if that's what you're doing, how is that not complaining?

1) Nice try to take this out of context. You stated in a previous post about carrying emotional burdens for the rest of your life remark (roughly).

2) Once again you take my post out of context. Its when you started to make personal attacks on me on the board.

3) Its different because its "HISTORIC points". Meaning its pretaining to history. Its FACTUAL. Just like its a historic fact that slavery happen in the U.S. It was given as an example because you stated in a previous post about delaying evolution by thousands of years remark (roughly). Once again you have taken the post out of context of what was stated earliar in the entire post.

More than willing to take this up on another forum.

1) My response was to what you wrote, "I believe people do suffer and one may feel Momentary upset by it but one shouldnt continue to carry the baggage around." The point I was making was that your "momentary upset" comment implies that such problems are seen only occasionally and I was countering it by showing that they are taking place all the time. Either such problems are a constant concern or a person is heartless and soulless, like a politician who moves from one popular topic to the next while forgetting what happened an hour ago (this is also known as the "Fox News Syndrome").

2) I made attacks on what YOU were posting. If you don't believe in what you are posting, why are you doing it? For fun? To waste time? Do you always post things you don't believe in?

3) Just because something is factual doesn't mean you can't complain about it. My point--which you ignored--is that you are complaining about things instead of doing something about them. You still have responded to this by talking about what you're doing to end these problems. For example, the U.S. Government is currently torturing people in the name of its citizens. What are you doing to stop this? Or do you just ignore this because for you it's just a "momentary upset?"

[Henry123]

This has turned into one person hijacking the forum so they can vent their spleen.

Censored, whatever point you had to make, has been made as effectively as you were capable of making it.

You say I deleted a post unfairly.

OK, you win the day.

This section of the thread ends at this point, and attempts to continue it here, or in other threads, will be removed as they are found, until all parties realize the futility of it.

Don please take note of Skip's message.