Basic Rights of children, students, and clients

[Annie]

Hello,

(oh, & for the moderators : I am now keeping Intact, & saved for future-Reference, each of my posts)

I have in decades past joined with other parents, teachers & therapists at several levels and in varying societal settings, in political Advocacy ... borne out of our common concerns for the *basic rights, and Well-being of ourselves, our children, our students and clients*, respectively.

Currently I am not actively 'politically' engaged, but many friends (as parents, teachers, therapists and legal entities) continue our mutual Advocacy. And while such means can only minimally affect *self-Healing*, yet - some Legal protections provide some insurance, against despots.

Having personally observed many individual, as well as groups of Parents, Teachers & Therapists " in action, face-to-face ",
I wonder how beneficial you think it would be discussing here :
a) Rights of children, students and clients
b) Violations by parents, teachers & therapists
c) Resources successfully available

For instance, 1 fine day a few of us decided to skip a clinical-conference, and instead hash out a new " Bill of Rights ", and while contextually some of these conditions may slightly change, they were :
1. the right to -
have each soul 'clothed' in a mind/body, which later is dressed with more clothes; have fetal development be 'sheltered' in a Welcoming womb, and later in another Nurturing home;
experience Birthing into arms of LOVE ...
2. the right to live FREE ... (especially of coercion, deceptive imprisonment, anxiety/fears such as terror, and all means of torture. iow, 1st. do NO harm)
3. the right to live Encouraged ...
4. the right to create our own Fun map in a personal pursuit of happiness..
5. the right not to have said map be mis-judged, ridiculed or condemned.
6. the right to be supported in reaching Benevolent goals ...
7. the right to have personal experiences, & associated emotions, be acknowledged as the perceptions they are ...
8. the right to Full disclosure (including harmful complications) for any suggested (never ordered) class, or therapy; and
the right to contemplate answers to questions until such are re-assuredly understood, concerning any offered Course, or Therapy.
9. the right to stop participating in a course, or therapy - without reprisal, including distortion, by said trainer or therapist.
10. the right to seek out successful resources as defined by the child's, student's, or client's feedback.


The 2nd. part in this discussion, on some of the more dangerous BASIC RIGHTS " Violations " ,
as well as the 3rd. part in this discussion on *successful Resources* for anyone so interested, I will transfer over later (as
I want to keep these posts shorter)

At any rate, how does this brief List compare with your own " Bill of Rights " you may be sharing with your clients ?


Annie

[Steve]

hello Annie,

I know you personally. I know your heart and you mean well. Unfortunately, we do not live in a utopian world where this would work. Ultimately this would fail. :( Some well meaning person would ultimately judge whether these "rights" have been violated or not. Then what? Well, the child must be protected obviously. The child would be taken out of the abusive home where rights are being violated, and put in a more "protective" environment. As you know all too well, the government believes it knows better, so these kids would be put in an institution for their protection. Only the worst abuses at first, but slowly the system would grow (as all government systems do) until the government was raising kids instead of the parents. This is a bad 'slippery slope' to go down. The end result is not good. So while it is ideally good, we live in a corrupt world where the end result would not be so good.

[Annie]

Hi Steve,

Well, you & I have shared these kinds of discussions already, considering how each/both of us are interested in the *Well-being of a person's child* :)

You said : Some well meaning person would ultimately judge whether these "rights" have been violated or not. Then what ? Well, the child must be protected obviously. The child would be taken out of the abusive home where rights are being violated, and put in a more "protective" environment. As you know all too well, the government believes it knows better, so these kids would be put in an institution for their protection. Only the worst abuses at first, but slowly the system would grow (as all government systems do) until the government was raising kids instead of the parents. This is a bad 'slippery slope' to go down.

Yes, precisely : I agree with you wholeheartedly. And so do most of the parents, teachers, therapists, etc. I have worked with over the years inside various governmental systems/institutions. It is just as you descibed : any person (well-meaning, or not) can pick up a phone, make an anonymous call, and CPS will forcefully remove child/children, place them in innumerable Foster homes, shuffle them thru the courts; and because so many of these kids are as a result increasingly emotionally/sexually-traumatized in these various convoluted processes, they begin to act-out, start accumulating Legal records, and many end-up being placed in various Inpatient psychiatric settings ... like the 1 in which some of us Staff got together, to draw up this " Bill of Rights " I mentioned in my previous post. So, most definitely,
I am in full agreement with you about any government-Entity, or Group (outside each family's government) *not* seperating the day-to-day lives of parents & their children.

What those of us, chatting together, decided is that instead of More government-control mucking people's lives up, we need *less*. Yes, I know that leaves us with the challenge of those parents who, dysfunctional, are still complicating/conflicting their kid's lives. So, what can we do about that, as a Society ? : well, we decided that it might be a good Idea to get a Law passed that would require each couple before they conceive children to get their own Individual/Couple - Issues resolved, and take a *Parenting class*, or 2 or 3.

Consider : many Hi-schools now-a-days have as 1 of their Graduation-requirements, that kids satisfactorily pass a " Driver's education course " just so they can drive a car, safely & competently.
Yet,
*the Raising of the next generation* is left purely to chance ?! - This fails making good sense, we decided. So, what do you think about getting a Law passed requiring each couple (*before* they conceive children) to get their own Individual/Couple - Issues resolved, and take a *Parenting class*, or 2 or 3 :).


You said : I know you personally. I know your heart and you mean well. Unfortunately, we do not live in an utopian world where this would work. Ultimately this would fail. while it is ideally good, we live in a corrupt world where the end result would not be so good.

Yes, as you well additionally know, I am quite the Idealist :) : always wanting to contribute to making our "corrupt" world not only less corrupt but actually leave it a bit better, day by day.
So, I have been forced to accept that *utopian World-peace* ain't gonna happen most likely by the end of this decade, considering the sobering fact that for the past 1/2-century, it has become the "IN-thing, being paid lotsa tax-dollars money slaughtering 1000's of innocent lives, on a Daily basis " :(
(and lest you mis-understand this, I am not referring to our Military peace-keeping efforts, but
those actions/behaviors in #1 & 2 in my post that I will transfer over, shortly)

Thanks for your participation, Steve, in a discussion that I think more people would benefit giving thought to, as these Issues affect all of us in some way, or another.


Annie

[Annie]

Hi Steve,

You know, it is a curious thing, this wanting to being Helpful, re :
" Yet,
*the Raising of the next generation* is left purely to chance ?! - This fails making good sense, we decided. So, what do you think about getting a Law passed requiring each couple (*before* they conceive children) to get their own Individual/Couple - Issues resolved, and take a *Parenting class*, or 2 or 3 . "

Now, in your 1st. post you said : " Unfortunately, we do not live in an utopian world where this would work. Ultimately this would fail. while it is ideally good, we live in a corrupt world where the end result would not be so good.

Of course, our groups also consider some very real complications, such as :
1. How each Law actually end-up being "phrased" by the time it/they had proceeded thru nameless Legislative-committees ?; like by the time the deletions, distortions, & generalizations were mired in place, there's a Good chance that we, as Well-meaning people, may not even recognize this Law how we had envisioned it, at the outset. This happens in Law - circles on a daily basis.
Hm, " human nature " being what it is - we prolly won't be able to do anything about this, eh ?

and then,
2. How shall this, now unhelpful Law, be *Administered, and by Whom* ?, and what about ensuring Co-operation ? : this undoubtedly will cost "more TAX-dollars" ... and we sure don't need that, anymore than we need "more Government-control"; do we ?

The Untied Nations, already, has " a Children's Bill of Rights ", and that ain't going so Well, either.
and
then, there are the folks claiming : " Children are too young/inexperienced to know how to handle a Bill of Rights. That only applies, realistically, to Adults ".

OK; we won't talk about it, anymore.

Sigh.

The question still goes begging : What can we do to teach *each Momma & a Poppa, individually, to honor each of their child/ren, and vice versa* ??
~~

However, in the next part of my discussion (altho there are mounting challenges here also), there have been
a few Legal-dams built, to one extent or another, holding-back the rising tide of " corruption " of which you spoke, Steve.

It would Help having these *Legal protections being re-inforced, thru greater Public-participation*. Of course,
1st. the General public needs to be made aware what they even are ... hence my bringing them up, here.

Maybe this time, these above helpful choices - plus the voices of the 1000's having been permanently-Harmed prior to such protections - ,won't be moderated Out as they were here, recently. One can always hope :)


Annie

[SarahJean]

what do you think about getting a Law passed requiring each couple (*before* they conceive children) to get their own Individual/Couple - Issues resolved, and take a *Parenting class*, or 2 or 3
I think many of your points were a very nice thought but this really eats at me. *Some* people are bad parents, and *some* people are good parents. You cannot segment them before they have children because you can never judge who will be the good parents and who will be the bad. I, for one, have three small boys aged 3 and under and I would never even consider going to a parenting class. This is based on several experiences I had at antenatal classes with my eldest child and infact one parenting session I went to after he was born. The information handed out was factually accurate but not practically. And some things were said purely to scare first timers into submission.

I am a good parent, I don't need classes and neither does my Husband. Our kids are healthy, happy children leading full and very active lives. We had no issues before we had children and we don't have any now that we can't work out ourselves. And personally, if I was forced into going to parenting classes because it was *Law* I would feel my "right" as a parent was being questioned.

Now if a person proves to be a bad parent, then yes, I think they should be forced to take classes and ultimately if that doesn't work then take the children out. :o

[norbert]

Agree SarahJean, this is really a dangerous point. Who is going to decide and on what criteria?

The right to be FREE is the really basic right and it is already crippled if an instance takes away that right from parents in favor of their offspring.

Freedom is an utopia but one worth to die for. If we can develop the freedom of mind (self esteem and self conciousness) first the other things will follow as a result.

Give people choices and they will make better decisions.

Have a great day


Norbert

[Annie]

Hi SarahJean,

You said : I think many of your points were a very nice thought
but this really eats at me. *Some* people are bad parents, and *some* people are good parents. You cannot segment them before they have children because you can never judge who will be the good parents and who will be the bad. "

Generally, I agree with you on this point - as well
originally during our chats, I presented the Outline of a "parenting class" I had created/facilitated, for the Church I was involved with 20 years ago.

For another thing, some people (themselves having survived hellish childhoods) will successfully transform themselves into being wonderful parents because they determined before conceiving children to nourish/nurture them Lovingly, with their children ending-up being blessed accordingly. And
beyond healthy parenting,
children remain free making their own choices as is their right, also.

If we lived in a world of abundant committed 2-parent families *safely and benevolently interacting with their children in daily fun ways*, occasion for discussions such as we had would be rare indeed.
~

You said : "I, for one, have three small boys aged 3 and under and I would never even consider going to a parenting class. This is based on several experiences I had at antenatal classes with my eldest child and in fact one parenting session I went to after he was born. The information handed out was factually accurate but not practical. And some things were said purely to scare first timers into submission. "

sadly, the 3 F-tactics of 'fear-force-fraud' are common everywhere : in Medicine, religion, school, psychiatry, Government, web-boards, etc.
and
I pointed out that usual 'Lecture/Hand-out' kinds of classes are not really what is helpful.

more to the point, back then each of my classes I had taught were of a *full participatory* nature where children accompanied their parents, and they *practice real-life interacting* of the similar sort we ended-up, in 2000, writing about in our "Bill of Rights". In those scenarios, 'fear-force-fraud' would not be experienced.
and

also, child-victims of : negatively/drug 'addicted' parents (frequently dependent on the US "welfare"-system); 'pedophilia' ; 'teen'-started pregnancy/abortions, & involuntarily-committed/incarcerated in Psychiatric prisons here in the US,
so many of these children could be helped at age 9 to have other than suicidal-thoughts, and by age 13 (instead of bulging criminal-records) a commendable list of beneficial societal-improvements.

I don't know what your experience-base is with very real situations like the few I mention, but Yes - parents producing such child-victims have significant issues in need of Healing, plus Parenting classes besides to continue encouraging "functionally-healthy childhood experiences" .
~

You said : " Now if a person proves to be a bad parent, then yes, I think they should be forced to take classes, and ultimately if that doesn't work then take the children out. "

Unfortunately, the evidence being that -
having 'like/above' parents only attending "Lecture/Hand-out style classes, without being *healed*, does not alone sufficiently improve the environment for their children's benefit.
and
re: Your 'ultimate' proposal of "if that doesn't work then take the children out." - How aware are you the nightmarish plight of many kids in "Foster-care" being often worse than the Bio-environment they were, forceably, removed from ?.
and
Geeze, even I used to think that such kids being "adopted" were Lucky. Right, there are people emotionally bankrupt enough to buy precious babies, for use in Research-centers with the same fate as animals obtained from shelters. I almost fainted when I became aware of that.

so, our group (consisting of our medical Director wearing the hat of 'main psychiatrist', several Social workers & several nurses) got together to chat about these issues. And most of us being parents as well,

the one solution we thought "most ensuring Intact family-units, as well as optimizing each child's developmental years", is to have said parents get their issues Healed, and with as many Parenting-classes as their children feedback their parents may need.

Anyway, since many adults think kids should have no "Bill of Rights", we met concerned for children's *well-being and health*.

Thank you, SarahJean, for your thoughts here and for how nurturingly you can care for your own precious children :) ...

[Don]

I have frequently stated that it is odd that people have to take classes to be able to drive cars. They even have to sign a license to get married. But all they have to do to have children and raise them is to have sex.

I agree that their should be classes that children should take--probably in both the middle grades/junior high school and high school--about raising children. The problem, of course, is who is going to teach the courses and what should be taught.

For example, when it comes to teaching sex education classes, recent studies have shown that were birth control is taught, the number of teen pregnancies is down, while where abstinence only is taught, the number of teen pregnancies is either level or up.

I don't want to turn this into a debate over sex education--this is only presented as an analogy over the idea that what is taught, the attitudes of the teachers, and even how the information is taught is just as important as the fact that people should have such training.

IMO, schools should insist that all girls know how to change a tire and do an oil change. All boys should know how to cook a meal and do the laundry. And every student should learn the truth about child creation and rearing.

But there is a difference between changing a tire with a mag wheel and other types of wheels. There is a difference between making a scrambled egg and eggs florentine. And how to teach child creation and rearing has been and will be controversial.

[Annie]

re Don's response, about what Public school should vs. should not be teaching :

Discussing our common concern for the *Well-being of each child*
in this particular group (I mentioned, at the beginning of this thread, as having participated in) as well as countless other discussion groups, a primary concern inevitably discussed as well, is the recent social invention called "Public school".

For most of human history children were *Home-schooled* : a successful tradition having made a strong Come-back as a direct result/response of the failure of " Institutionalized education" to successfully teach the 3R's, let alone more, asigned commonly the name "AP-class".

During the past 1/2-century, the way this failure managed being concealed from earliest public scrutiny, was continuously "Lowering annual academic-testing Expectations, in the USA". Obviously, this trend spiraled upward into "Teacher's colleges" also, until several generations of public school teachers were proven being "functionally illiterate" themselves. That fact, plus several of the points Don raised in his post, is what made us more concerned parents take charge.

Beyond this very abbreviated/encapsulated review, us parents are of the strong opinion that :
* Money-budgeting, Home-education, Sex-education, Child-education, etc. etc.* are matters of BASIC-"parental" responsibilities.

Iow, once parents in a society neglect, thereby by default relegating, their Parental-responsibilities ... to "Governmental-entities, ie: Public school system", you can only expect that same society becoming increasingly unstable, as in fact the saga is playing out before our global eyes.

Don said : " IMO, schools should insist that all girls know how to change a tire and do an oil change. All boys should know how to cook a meal and do the laundry. And every student should learn the truth about child creation and rearing. "

Exactly right, Don. Children "should" have such basic competencies; but *not* because "public school" taught them how. Those are EVERY "parents' responsibility".

But more basic than that even, is how so many parents often forget how *fun* life, generally, is intended to be. What is that quote ? : "What the mind expects, tends to be realized ... " Likewise,
if parents proceed with their Child-rearing from the perspective of "god, what a bother !; or this is gonna be hard, or incredibly difficult !", then yes - those expectations is just how they're programming their Parenting-trip. But it doesn't need to be this way, at all !

Parenting should, and can be, one of the *greatest happiest learning adventures... for each parent & child*. And THAT is what many of us parents, so concerned, have been sharing with other parents in many, numerous *Teaching*-situations. Several dozen of us parents chose teaching, annually at the local college, the "Easy-how of Home-schooling".

Together, my 11 yr.old daughter & I designed a class, entitled : *The pleasures of Unschooling*. (instead of only Hand-outs for them to lose in the car on the way back home, lol)
Both of us demonstrated just how *fun, & simple* this process really is :
Yes,
learning how to make clothes can be Fun !
learning how to grow veggies & fruits can be Fun !
learning how to bake a cake, write poetry, or learning car maintanance, etc. (Lord, using your imagination, the beneficial possibilities are almost endless :) )

Many parents with kids in Public-school, on witnessing my daughter graduating from College with honors, at 17 - turned to the both of us & asked : " Geeze, how come you pushed her so hard to do that ? "; where-upon my daughter said : " Are you kidding, it was easy precisely because my mom allowed me to have fun, lol " ), and
acknowledging me,
she said : " Thank you, mom, for being there every day ... from sunny skies to dreary grey. Your love, always illiminating my way, showed me to Live-at-play ".

Allowing children to maintain their *Fun-attitude* throughout their life, is one of the greatest Gifts parents, and yes "Public school" teachers, can bestow ...

Now, there are 1000's of other families, of parents & children together, living similar examples ... but it's not nearly enough.

So, we are creating ever newer classes, doing what we can for the World-at-large ...


Annie

[Don]

Hi, Annie.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, my question was about "what" should be taught while your response was on "where" and "how." :-(

I agree with many of your points. Parents should be teaching their children certain things, but they don't. Perhaps that is because they don't even know what to teach.

I would respectfully suggest that public schools are not a relatively recent phenomenon. For example, the oldest public school in the U.S., Boston Latin School, goes back to 1635. Schools, of course, were available throughout the world for thousands of years, although often limited to those with money.