hypnosis to make your nose smaller?

[the wizard]

hi is it possible/effective to use hypnosis to make your nose smaller or even eyes bigger? not exactly change it to a completely different shape but just change the size?

thanks in advance!

[Merlin]

It's *possible*, though not advisable

[the wizard]

hi merlin, why is it not advisable?

[Unregister]

It's *possible*, though not advisable
You've stated that it's possible to make nose cartlidge disappear. That's an odd belief... But then again, you don't *explicitly* say it's possible to do so through hypnosis. I smell equivocation.

[j0hnny#]

Come off it, nose smaller with hypnosis!? What would hypnosis do to produce this effect?

[Terry (existing)]

Come off it, nose smaller with hypnosis!? What would hypnosis do to produce this effect? I personally have no idea, but just because I have never done it does not mean it can't be done, and I am not so rude or stupid as to deny something just because I have never tried it. I suggest you are becoming rude and ignorant in your replies, without contributing to knowledge, and this is pissing off others who know considerably more than you do, yet recognise that we don't know it all. I suggest you keep your mouth shut, and your ears open. You will learn more that way, and avoid getting nasty comments in return. Merlin frequently makes statements that puzzle me, but I am smart enough to recognise that she may know something I don;t, and if I listen long enough I will learn what that is.... If not, at least I avoid being rude without cause. I too can be rude when it seems to be called for, usually when someone shows themselves to be incapable of doing any research for themselves, so they bother us with stupid, ill thought out questions, just as you have. It is obvious that you lack skill, knowledge, and sadly couth.

[Poodle]

Thanks Terry for saying what I really, really wanted to! It would seem to me that Merlin may have a very valid point -- if we can make things grow larger, why could we not then reverse the process and make it grow smaller.

[Terry (existing)]

True, but that really was not the point. If you don't know, then scoffing at someone else who claims to know is rude, stupid, and definitely won't give you anything you don;t already have. Perhaps our friend feels that if he is rude enough he will get the information he wants by getting the donor angry enough to prove what they say. If so, he don;t know Merlin (G). As for whether Merlin can indeed do this, she may well be having fun at the expense of the questioner. I often to that when I am annoyed by a post. Some are so stupid, if I didn't have fun with them I might burst (EG)

[j0hnny#]

very funny...:D

Content edited to remove personally insulting commentary.

... I know what I know, and people can make whatever use of it (or not) that they will.. But I have every right to express myself, however I please. This site never ceases to amaze me (and sometimes particularly Merlin) in what is said can be done with hypnosis. And why is it so lacking in research to ask for a starting point to understanding something that strikes one as incredulous? I suggest your post has nothing to do with this thread, and more to do with your concern for your status amongst your 'friends' here, or because I've put you in your place many times before. ... And, I don't think what you wrote was a nasty comment, quite stimulating actually.

Personally, I'm not prepared to not challenge the sort of claims people make that they expect you to accept because they *know* it to be so. Where I come from, we have a time honoured intellectual tradition of challenging authoritative pronouncements, we critique and feedback and develop our ideas together - wherever you're from (don't say you are from the UK, please - that would be shameful) if you think it is wiser to shut up and blindly 'learn' from those 'greater' than you, more fool you in my opinion - seems obvious - if this is what you really think, that you have wasted most of your life.

Whether people want to read anything I write, or respond to them, or get upset by them, or actually take some use from them, is their business.. If you don't like what I write, stick me on your ignore list. That's fine with me. Or keep up the fun comments.. either way, no problem here.

Now, back to sensible discussion, and with genuine interest, Merlin (if you haven't been tarnished by Terry's attempt at spiteful post) It's not as though it's the sort of topic that one could readily investigate, so, if it's okay, I'll ask the so called 'ignorant, lazy ass, skillless' :rolleyes: question again, and as a show of good faith, I'll reframe it with a little more icing on the cake. Here goes:

Merlin, that something as non muscular seeming and robust as a nose, can be reduced in size via the activity of hypnosis seems as bizarre to me as to anyone (except probably terry and his puppy) who does not have your skills and knowledge. Please can you explain a little further as to how this can be done with hypnosis, I am fascinated, though wryfully suspicious at how this might be done.. like terry imagines, there was no truth in his speculations, which really say more about he than me... I actually am genuinely surprised at this proposal, and would like to understand why someone might say that such a thing can be done.. Should I really go and do my homework, or is it reasonable to ask this question of you.

sincerely
Johnny
:) x


They kILLEd Socrates for asking questions !! did you know that? They found him rude!! I'd say I'm doing my job quite well!

[j0hnny#]

Thanks Terry for saying what I really, really wanted to!

shame on you poodle, shame on you.:(:confused:

[Terry (existing)]

Johnny, you are quite correct, you have the right to an opinion, and you have the right to ignore advice. Yes you are doing an excellent job of being rude, and not getting what you ask for, so if that is fine with you, so be it, but in future don't bother to make any comments to me, since I agree with you and will now put you on my ignore list with the rest of the bunch who fail to learn anything. He who fails to learn is doomed to repeat his failures.

[Poodle]

If you want training or teaching, go somewhere else. Watch your step as many have been banished for less than you are doing now.

Hey Terry, does this mean that I get to be your Poodle like TB is referred to in London? LOL!! I find myself laughing myself silly over that one. I never thought I'd live to see the day!

I can't wait for a one-liner from Merlin on this if she even deems it worthy of a reply.

[Merlin]

Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.
Any soft tissue can be directed to be bigger or smaller.

The problem is direction.
What if all the tissue shrank, but only on the left side?
You probably wouldn't like that.
The problem is reducing the nose with surgical precision in just the right places.
It requires constant attentiveness to be accepttably successful.

[Merlin]

You can be my pet, Poodle :)

[Poodle]

I was watching something on the tellie tonight about a poor young lad in England who had what is referred to medically as frozen bones. I had never seen anything like it before. He may have been between 8-10 years of age. I have no idea why the mother never considered hypnosis for the pain this poor child is in then my mind got going -- I wonder if we could change bone mass (stop it from forming masses). They did not explain why his body does that so I wouldn't have a clue as where to start. Anyone else ever heard of this one?

[Unregister]

I personally have no idea, but...
Then why did you write another 187 words of reply where you defend something you state you have no idea about?

[Unregister]

Thanks Terry for saying what I really, really wanted to! It would seem to me that Merlin may have a very valid point -- if we can make things grow larger, why could we not then reverse the process and make it grow smaller.
Go on then. Do it. Make your nose smaller with hypnosis. Let's see how far you get.

[Unregister]

Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.
Any soft tissue can be directed to be bigger or smaller.

Do it then. Don't jusr vaguely assert it. Prove it.


The problem is direction.
What if all the tissue shrank, but only on the left side?
You probably wouldn't like that.
The problem is reducing the nose with surgical precision in just the right places.
It requires constant attentiveness to be accepttably successful.
[/QUOTE]
Strange that you can state all this but won't ever prove it.

[Jack]

Hello Wiz,

Everyone on here has beliefs. Some believe that hypnosis can do just about anything and it's true that it can do some marvellous life changing things.

Now, personally I've never seen a nose reduced in size or eyes increased in size using hypnosis, nor have I ever read or heard about either being done. I put it in the same category as a belief in fairies(of the Tinkerbell type) - possible but highly improbable.

Remember there will always be gullible people in the world, and always people eager to take advantage of them.

Jack

Jack

[j0hnny#]

To be clear, the incredulity was directed at the original poster, and only really by default to Merlin, but anyway, thanks you've been an excellent resource to me and I'll miss your harsh word. Actually, you've given me through your comments a lot more of what I'm after than any topic here on the board. You've assumed too quickly that you know other people's purposes. There is no wisdom in that, and that's not an insult btw, just an observation.

All best
Johnny

[Merlin]

I'm sure hypnosis could be used in this situation.

>I have no idea why the mother never considered hypnosis for...

For most people hypnosis=witchcraft or worse.
It's a nonsensical myth that hypnosis can help, so they never try to find out if it's valid.

I'm considered a sorceress by many.

[Unregister]

That, Merlin, is clearly only your belief, but belief and truth run independently. The truth (your posting history in this case) shows that you ALWAYS assert as your first reaction that hypnosis will do exactly whatever the enquirer wants regardless of the question, and yet when the inevitable challenge comes along we quickly see that your proof consists of nothing more than vague insistance that you're right. It seems that in your mind the fact that someone asks if it will help means that it will help. THat's just your belief, not reality.

[the wizard]

Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.
Any soft tissue can be directed to be bigger or smaller.

The problem is direction.
What if all the tissue shrank, but only on the left side?
You probably wouldn't like that.
The problem is reducing the nose with surgical precision in just the right places.
It requires constant attentiveness to be accepttably successful.
__________________


thanks everyone!!

merlin you made a good point, but what about chest? when people do chest enlargement, don't they do it nicely with both sides eqivalent?

[MissPiggy]

Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.


It's true, but the speed of this change depends on the body part. The cells of the lips are completely changed after 2 weeks, the cells of the bones are completely changed after 10 years. So if somebody wants a hypnosis nose job, this person better should be patient :D

[the wizard]

It's true, but the speed of this change depends on the body part. The cells of the lips are completely changed after 2 weeks, the cells of the bones are completely changed after 10 years. So if somebody wants a hypnosis nose job, this person better should be patient :D


what about the eyes? how long would THAT take?

that dosen't mean our lips would change shape every 2 weeks does it?

[AnthonyM83]

Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.
Any soft tissue can be directed to be bigger or smaller.

The problem is direction.
What if all the tissue shrank, but only on the left side?
You probably wouldn't like that.
The problem is reducing the nose with surgical precision in just the right places.
It requires constant attentiveness to be accepttably successful.May I ask if this is in theory or have you observed significant nose changes in practice as well?

I ask because since entering the world of alternative therapies and hypnosis, I often find discrepencies between theory and practice. I hope it's not taken as rudeness, but in this field I've found it difficult to keep grounded sometimes.

[Poodle]

To understand the never ending changing of the human body, maybe you should read some books by Deepak Chopra. I believe he outlines it all quite well.

[Don]

I had an ex-girlfriend who, when I originally dated her, had the figure of an athlete. Her bust size was about 34 B.

Years later, when I saw her again, her bust had changed to 36DD! This had happened very rapidly after her 40th birthday. She told me that the same thing had happened to her mother. My ex said she couldn't figure out what was going on when her clothes wouldn't fit and only realized it when she was walking down the street and someone driving by shouted, "nice melons!" and she couldn't find any casabas no matter where she looked.

The possibility of rapid change no matter one's age, especially with soft tissue, is always there. The questions as to whether hypnosis can, in all situations, cause rapid change. That will depend upon how strongly the belief system of the client is in place, the skill and training of the hypnotist, the amount of rapport between the two, and other variables.

Although I have seen documentation showing anecdotal evidence of relatively rapid change in some soft tissue with hypnosis, it really hasn't been one of my interests and I don't work in that field. My guess is that it will work for some people and not for others due to decades of belief that certain parts of the body cannot change.

The eyes at birth are full size. Because the head of an infant is small, they look enormous. The face shrinks with age, making the nose look longer although it generally does not grow after maturity. The ear lobes, however, continue to slowly grow from birth until death.

Our body/mind matrix is a true miracle!

[MissPiggy]

what about the eyes? how long would THAT take?

The lens cells don't change, they have to last the whole life.

I can imagine that the boobs can be changed with hypnosis. A big part of the boobs are just fat cells and we all know that it's easy to fill these fat cells and to produce new ones. The only tricky part here is to fill the fat cells we want to be big and not the fat cells on the belly.
I don't believe that a real nosejob is possible with hypnosis. Maybe some smaller changes, but when somebody gets a nosejob very often they break the nose to change the form. How should this be done with hypnosis?

[Five]

Post menopausal women frequently experience breast size increases.

Why bother with hypnosis for nose changes? Surgery does quite well and in a jiffy too. Consider that part of nose size is bone. Do you think you are going to change it with hypnosis.

You know, for professional communicators you guys sure biker a lot. You can be as bad as some of the nerds on general message boards.

[Terry (existing)]

There are nerds all over, so why should we be different? As for biking, I assume that is a term that has meaning to you, but not to me, except that I can make a guess. Personally, I never bugger about, you get it straight from the shoulder, and if you don't like that, too bad. However, I have never, and never will assume that I know everything there is to know, and how to do it. Therefor, I find it better to sit back and learn rather than make a fool of myself by disputing something, simply because I have never done it. I don;t mess with plastic surgery, simply because there is an easier way. However, I have done things that would raise your hackles in disbelief, but who cares if you believe or not, the loss if any is yours, and I see no gain in disputing something you can't prove, nobody is going to be goaded into giving you information just because you dispute what they say. Just the oposite, they will likely give you a swift kick were it hurts, possibly by telling you what a Nerd you are (G)....

[Five]

Terry, I meant "bickering"; the little nonsense insults you give each other.

I am not disputing anything. I was not even personally addressing you. Why did you think I was? Why the hostility? Bad hair day? A little paranoia maybe? You see, I can do it too.

I lived with a par/schizo for 5 years. Too bad that I got bored with Freud. I should have read as far as when he said he sniffed his patients. The Schzo had an acrid body odor.

I would love to hear your "hair raising stories". I have been into "mind stuff" for a very long time, and believe that you can receive what the mind can perceive. In an infinite universe all things are possible. Thoughts are things, and they become real. What you constantly dwell upon will manifest in your life, be it pleasant or unpleasant. You create your own reality. And maybe you can do it better with a little help from your friendly hynotist.

Is there anything else that you want to know?

[Merlin]

If you want *proof* you're at the wrong place.
This is a discussion forum, not a peer reviewed journal.

[Merlin]

>merlin you made a good point, but what about chest? when people do chest enlargement, don't they do it nicely with both sides eqivalent?

Hopefully, but not always.
Have you never known a woman with one breast larger and one smaller?
It's an example of lack of specific guidance.

[Merlin]

Merlin: Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.

MissPiggy: The cells of the lips are completely changed after 2 weeks, the cells of the bones are completely changed after 10 years.

Merlin replies: Um, last I checked, bones were not considered soft tissue.

[Terry (existing)]

There you go, I learned something more. I didn't know the body odour changed for Schitzophrenics, and yes I want to know anything I don;t know and that I find to be of interest. See, I have never stopped learning, and believe anyone who does is already dead but doesn't know it. Lord that I might live to be ninty, and learn something new on my last day on earth. As for my hair raising stories, I do occassionaly mention one or two, but never go out of my way to do so, since to me that would be gouch.....

[AnthonyM83]

If you want *proof* you're at the wrong place.
This is a discussion forum, not a peer reviewed journal.Not sure if that was for me.... I don't ask for proof here simply asking if the nose change is in theory or have you observed significant nose changes in practice as well? I'll take certain people in this forum on their word.

[Merlin]

Anthony,
I was responding to our unregistered guest:

That, Merlin, is clearly only your belief, but belief and truth run independently. The truth (your posting history in this case) shows that you ALWAYS assert as your first reaction that hypnosis will do exactly whatever the enquirer wants regardless of the question, and yet when the inevitable challenge comes along we quickly see that your proof consists of nothing more than vague insistance that you're right.

[Unregister]

If you want *proof* you're at the wrong place.
This is a discussion forum, not a peer reviewed journal.
But Merlin, you stated that it was "*possible*". Are you now saying you have no proof? Why would you say it was "*possible*" if you don't know it is?

[Don]

Define, please, what you mean as "proof."

I've seen too many internet debates where person A demands proof, person B provides ample proof, but person A won't accept it as valid.

So please define what you mean as "proof."
Also please describe what you will do after acceptable proof is provided.
For example, to whom will you pay $10,000 for the proof you demand?

[skip]

Don,

You are wasting your time.

What you have here is a crusader.

Now I dont know if they wanted to find some 'fault' in hypnosis, or if this particular Don Quixote has something personal with Merlin. Or maybe you just have someone with an overinflated sense of self importance.

It really doesnt matter, this predictably will be like a tiny little toy poodle, with its teeth firmly locked on its insignificant point, and nothing will loosen its fanatical grip.

All in the name of the God of 'Scientific Truth' no doubt.

If any of these noble Don Quixote's had any idea how many of the "Don Quixote Model Mark 1's" had come before them, with the exact same cookie cutter argument...

If any of them had any idea how utterly foolish they sound trying to tell someone, who IS already doing something, that it cannot be done...

If any of them had any idea that, to many people it is completely irrelevent whether or not they believe ...

They might have a glimpse of how silly their demand of proof sounds.

I think that first, my unregistered friend ought to have to proove they deserve the proof. That they will do something worthwhile with it, when they get it. The last Don Quixote Model Mark 1, that got it, merely tore the covers off, and chewed the pages.

skip

[Merlin]

I state I'm not going to *prove* it here.
or even attempt to prove anything here because this is a discussion forum, not a peer reviewed journal.

[Nigel H]

Well - what an interesting thread.....

I must confess to not reading all the to's & fro's of insults ..... and either way it got me thinking - I am not interested in taking side one way or the other, so would like to add some food for thought for anyone open minded enough to consider the possibilities !!!

Consider for a moment - we cannot actually experience 'reality' - we can only experience our perception of it - since for those of you trained in NLP (among other disciplines) may know the NLP communication model and understand the meaning of PERCEPTION = PROJECTION.

We experience EVERYTHING through our filters - and our version of reality is therefore always a projection from inside of us as a result of that process.

Taking this in to account and the fact that Hypnosis, along with NLP and Time Line Therapy(TM) as well as other methods dealing with the mind, allow us to effect peoples filter mechanisms and hence our version/perception of reality - is it not possible that using hypnosis can change the size of our nose......... or anything else?

The comments above, from others, alude to perhaps the physical size of the actual thing, in millimeters or whatever formal measurement may be used - and I am suspecting that the only reason the question has been asked is because someone feels their nose / eyes are a 'wrong' size. By changing their perception of that issue the problem will go away, hypnosis can be used to allow such a change. Following on from that ......... if their perception is changed effectively, then so is their reality [PERCEPTION = PROJECTION etc]

Which is more important - arguing over a technicality or helping someone experience their problem disappear!!!???

If someone believes their nose is too big and we help them amend that belief, then as far as they are concerned, perhaps their nose has 'got smaller' [or at least their concern about the issue will have shrunk!!]

Cheers all

Nig

[Five]

Have any of you ever used hypnosis to increase the fat cells in an older persons face to make them look younger?

BTW, if ever you want a dog to unlock his teeth from anything, take his hind legs out from under him. He uses them for leverage. Depending on the temerament and size of the dog, you might have to be very careful doing this, and if it is a fight you are breaking up, be very sure that the other person is ready to pull away pronto. Not to say this will work for those real "hangers on", but its worth a try.

[MissPiggy]

Merlin: Our body's soft tissue is constantly in flux, changing almost daily.

MissPiggy: The cells of the lips are completely changed after 2 weeks, the cells of the bones are completely changed after 10 years.

Merlin replies: Um, last I checked, bones were not considered soft tissue.


Ok, I didn't see you were talking only about soft tissue. But then your reply at the beginning that it's possible to make a nose smaller with hypnosis doesn't make sense. To make a nose smaller it's necessary to change the bone structure. If you don't believe that ask a plastic surgeon.

[Merlin]

It's not bone in the nose, it's cartilage.

[Merlin]

Have any of you ever used hypnosis to increase the fat cells in an older persons face to make them look younger?


No. I use other methods.

[MissPiggy]

It's not bone in the nose, it's cartilage

Oh no, no bone in the nose :rolleyes: LMAO

[Don]

I know several people who have a bone in the nose. Sometimes they replace it with a porcupine quill or a feather.

[Terry (existing)]

I know several people who have a bone in the nose. Sometimes they replace it with a porcupine quill or a feather. Strange company you keep Don! Of course I also know people these days with funny things in and on their noses, like rings, diamonds et al. Funny how so many people adorne the body, but give no thought to adorning or improving their mind.

[Five]

Merlin, you uses other methods? To increase fat cells, or to make them look younger? Whaat other methods? Do you care to elaborate?

[Poodle]

I have not seen it done but I am very sure it can be done and if you say you do it that's good enough for me! I don't put it in the category of fairy tales. I am a firm believer in that we are only limited by our lack of imagination. You go GIRL!!

[Unregister]

What you have here is a crusader.
That's an interesting insult. My point is just, regardless of the problem, if someone asks if hypnosis will help, Merlin always starts by stating that yes it will, like just asking the question is enough for it to be true. When anyone questions Merlin, like how or how effective, Merlin then wriggles and hides behind smoke and mirrors until it goes away again. This is not a peer reviewed journal, true, but there's a neat mechanism here that says Merlin can claim anything for this altered state of consciousness whether there's first hand evidence or just a gut feeling that somehow it might work. You lot then jump to Merlin's defence and attack the outsider like clockwork when anyone not directly part of your group raises a point. Does anyone else not find this more than a little odd? Do you not find this a little odd, Mr Skip?

[teadaze]

Guest,
What is your motive for posting on this forum? Many people come here to learn about hypnosis. They ask questions and they get answers. If you decide that you disagree with a person's answer then by all means do so. But disagree in a constructive way. Demanding proof every five minutes is just irritating and a waste of every ones time...the proof is out there so why dont you look for it? You're the one who needs it after all...

[skip]

Actually no. Im not defending Merlin.

It is a whole 'nother thing for me.

And I think Merlin suffers sufficent loss of credibility when she does what appears to be the duck and cover routine.

I also recognize that what we are talking about doesnt always lend itsself to double blinds, and or anything beyond anectdotal evidence.

What I, and possibly others, whom I cannot speak for, are responding to is the sometimes incessant, "Prove it.", when we cant, we can only continue to do it, and get the results or not.

We deal daily at the mind/matter interface, and often we get rsults we have no explanation for excpet that the mind is capable of far more than we here-to-fore imagined.

Im not looking for a pass, for myself or anyone else, I am looking for some reasonable leeway.

skip

[Poodle]

If people are so curious as to Merlin's methods which are not that different from our own, book an appointment, pay your money and you may or may not remember what happened -- just depends on the mood you find her in as to what you will remember.

Some are good
Some are great
Some are excellent - I would put Merlin in this category. She has a very full toolbox and knows how to use it.

[Don]

I find it interesting, unnamed guest, that you completely dodged my challenge to you, making your attempt to appear superior highly suspicious.

So just in case you missed it (rather than ignored it as I'm inclined to think you did), I'll repeat it:

Define, please, what you mean as "proof."

I've seen too many internet debates where person A demands proof, person B provides ample proof, but person A won't accept it as valid.

So please define what you mean as "proof."
Also please describe what you will do after acceptable proof is provided.
For example, to whom will you pay $10,000 for providing the proof you demand?

[Unregister]

I find it interesting, unnamed guest, that you completely dodged my challenge to you, making your attempt to appear superior highly suspicious.

I am in fact ignoring you, because it's *possible*.

[skip]

Touche'

And well played!

skip

[Don]

I am in fact ignoring you, because it's *possible*.


In other words, you, like many other debunkers, are too much of a coward supporting your own ego and paradigm to dare reveal what it would take to prove you are wrong. Since you never reveal that, you think you can never lose.

If being a coward and a loser in your mind is being "superior," then so be it.

[AnthonyM83]

I am in fact ignoring you, because it's *possible*.You're ignoring because you don't have a good answer that will make you come out on top. Too many people on this board play this game. Come on, follow through with stuff.

[Merlin]

More often than not I have the mind choose the best method.

[Thinking Things]

This of course assumes there's a method available in the first place. :)

A confronted belief protects itself by retaliating, instead of letting possibilities in that it feels will harm it, including the possibility that the person making the claim may not be right. What's so wrong with asking someone to substantiate a claim? Why is it important that some are not challenged? The answer lies within your own beliefs and their protection mechanisms. Belief doesn't have to be rational, but it will do anything to protect itself. For instance, you all began demanding that the person asking for proof should supply it too. That's your belief in Merlin's infalibility protecting itself. You've started with an assumption that Merlin can be nothing but right and have sought to protect that belief rather than examining it for truth. Because of that, it's not another "win" to you guys -- you've actually stumbled into a very bad lose.

No, unregisterd guest, hypnosis has no written history of shrinking the cartlidge ofthe nose, only the perception of it. I have found not one scrap of written evidence for it in a week of looking through the literature. I tested my assumption that Merlin is always right by looking for evidence. My belief didn't die in the process, but it has changed into perhaps a more rational belief that better reflects reality, and is therefore more fit to hold than mere assumption.

On the balance of evidence, my belief is that Merlin is capable of being wrong. Not finding evidence within the literature to back Merlin's assertion has led me to believe that this is one of those instances.

[Jack]

Some years ago a young Pakistani whom I was treating for a phobia mentioned that
he did not just believe that Muhammad was God's prophet, he knew he
was because his Imam had told him so.

There are always gullible people who will believe anything. There are others who will
believe some things but not others.Each group has it's own reasons for believing or
not believing. Each group has its own standards of proof.

The key word is believe.

A belief is not a fact, no matter how firmly it is held. It is an unsubstantiated opinion.
Unsubstantiated opinions are that, unsubstantiated, lacking any indication that they
might be true other than a subjective one. It is only substantiated with proof.

Personally, I have no argument with people who cling to unsubstantiated opinions
as their belief system, I think they are fools, but I would not argue with their right
to meander through life with their foolishness.

As long as they do not infect others with it.

The Germans in WW2 had an unsubstantiated opinion that they were the master
race, indeed all truly dangerous people throughout the ages have had similar opinions
of themselves, including most psychopaths. In Iraq the Sunnis believe they are
superior to the Sh'iites and the Kurds - they have nothing to base that belief upon,
but it drives them to murder anyone who belongs to either of those two groups.
Palestinians believe that they will not be happy until all Israelis are dead, not just
removed, but dead. There are many other examples of how slavish belief divorced
from intellect or reason is the true evil in the world.

This kind of belief is from the Dark Ages, in fact probably further back than that
when humanity grunted in caves. It is a primitive belief that avoids using the brain
and substituting blind belief based on subjective experience. It used to give us
witchdoctors and today it gives us gurus and the cult of celebrity. The simple minded
and the idol worshippers have some excuse for not using their brains (being quite plainly
stupid), but the majority of people posting on here seem to be intelligent.

So, as an example only and not directed at the person who made the statement, I fail
to understand how someone can say 'I have not seen it done but I am very sure it
can be done and if you say you do it that's good enough for me! There is no reason
attached to this opinion, no use of intellect, no requirement for any kind of
proof, just a blind belief, and it saddens me that any intelligent person can make this
statement. It saddens me further to think that people like this are meddling with the
minds of others in a professional capacity, no matter how well meaning.

It makes me wish even more for the time when hypnotherapy will be a genuine
profession, rather than a loose association of faith healers, witchdoctors and idolaters.
Even government interference has to be better than what we have now.

As for the nose? Never seen it done, never heard of it being done, never read anything
about it being done. It may have been done, but is so unlikely that it does qualify for
fairytale status. If the original poster want to waste money, then he or she is completely
free to do so.

Just disconnect the brain.

Jack

[Nigel H]

Hey Jack

Just a point on your note on believing something without proof - isn't that known as FAITH ?

I am not religious and do not mean it in that way - and we all do things on faith.

Every time I drive down the road - I go on faith that the person coming towards me will not veer in to my path, or when I apply the brake I have faith that it will work and save me dying by crashing in to the car in front.

So - I do understand your point on the believability or otherwise, of the nose 'change' discussion and just wanted to note that we ALL have a measure of faith of things around us - I suggest it may be impossible to function without it !!

We are all taught things at school and beyond - we do not need to verify everything our teachers tell us, we take some of it on faith as being correct. I see this issue as no different. Some people posting are prepared to do so on this issue.......

There will always be those who require further proof on certain issues and I guess it just depends where we draw the line on what is relevant for us on any particular topic.

There are plenty of things that I have not seen done that I believe and also things I have heard of that I don't - as with most of us probably.

On this issue - the Jury is out - whilst I agree it sounds somewhat improbable, there are many doctors and highly trained scientists who think the whole of NLP & Hypnosis is hocus-pocus, yet many of us here know different. There will always be those who know more on a subject and so I revert to a phrase I heard (perhaps Anthony Robbins)

"No matter how thin you slice it - there are always 2 sides !"

Cheerio

Nig

[Merlin]

What you actually may have found is
not whether it's possible,
but rather whether anyone has researched it and documented it in an acceptable format for you.

[Thinking Things]

What you actually may have found is
not whether it's possible,
but rather whether anyone has researched it and documented it in an acceptable format for you.

On the assumption that you're addressing me, I'll rephrase my stance as clearly as I can so as to avoid argument:

I understand that you believe that this should be possible. There is however simply nothing I can find to back your claim, despite extensive work on my part to prove that my faith in you is not misplaced. Now, I understand fully that a challenged belief will perform the most convoluted of machinations to maintain its referential integrity, which is what your artfully vague replies, and the direct attacks of others on our unregistered guest, have amounted to. Sticking to the original claim, I have arrived, through no small effort to the contrary, that you are mistaken. I further believe you should re-examine your stance. I am not hopeful that this will happen, however, as you have a certain standing here to maintain and to do so would to you be a sign of weakness. On the contrary, I believe it would be a sign of strength on your part.

[skip]

Thinking,

Or not.

"...a challenged belief will perform the most convoluted of machinations to maintain its referential integrity ..."

In other words, 'A challenged belief will defend itsself.'

How interesting it is that you treat beliefs as if they were disembodied from people.

Presumably then an unchallenged belief would attack?

First I would like to know what evidence you have that beliefs act independently of the people who hold them?

And second I would like to know how you know every belief acts this way?

Now of course this 'challenge' to the belief you stated obviously must be responded to with "...the most convoluted of machinations to maintain its referential integrity..." If your belief (not you personally of course) responds any other way, or could have responded any other way, say with enlightenment, then your belief is ...

cheers,

skip

[Merlin]

On the assumption that you're addressing me, I'll rephrase my stance as clearly as I can so as to avoid argument:

There is a thread option which shows which post is being replied to.

I understand that you believe that this should be possible. There is however simply nothing I can find to back your claim, despite extensive work on my part to prove that my faith in you is not misplaced.

I understand.
There are many things in this world which have not yet been proven.

Now, I understand fully that a challenged belief will perform the most convoluted of machinations to maintain its referential integrity,

As you do here.

which is what your artfully vague replies, and the direct attacks of others on our unregistered guest, have amounted to.

Are you saying I have 'attacked' someone?
What is it I have posted which you have interpreted as an 'attack' of someone?

Sticking to the original claim,

Yes. Let's

I have arrived, through no small effort to the contrary, that you are mistaken.

Kewl.
glad you think so.

I further believe

I support your right to believe.

you should re-examine your stance.

I have no reason to.

I am not hopeful that this will happen,

oh well.

however, as you have a certain standing here to maintain and to do so would to you be a sign of weakness. On the contrary, I believe it would be a sign of strength on your part.

I have no reason to change my thoughts here.

[Thinking Things]

I'm very flattered that you have spent your own time in analysing and replying individually to each and every sentence I wrote.

[Thinking Things]

Thinking,

Or not.
Thinking, I assure you.

[Poodle]

The nose is nothing but tissue and cartlige. Have you ever seen a nose on a skeleton? The subconscious mind has been pushing tissue and cartlige around since man began on this earth -- it expands -- it shrinks all without our conscious awareness. It even heals itself without our conscious awareness. What is the big leap to harnessing the power that we have with hypnosis directing the SC to do as we ask. If it is a useful and beneficial change, the SC will gladly carry it out. No one objects to breast enlargement for woman via hypnosis. Why should changing the shape of a nose be any different than increasing or decreasing a woman's breast size and increasing muscle support too. Hypnosis has been used by some people for things you probably would not believe but it works!! It definitely depends on the skill level of the practitioner and I believe Merlin has the skill and knowledge to make this change occur. If someone demands proof, go see her. Pay her prices and reap the rewards.

The only limitation on hypnosis is the lack of imagination.

[Jack]

Hello Nigel,

Believing something without proof is indeed called faith.

When you drive down a road it isn't faith that enables you to keep on driving, it is a combination of hope and past experience. You hope that the driver of another car is not a madman who will drive in to you, and your experience tells you that although it may happen the chance is slim. It is a calculated risk arrived at by your brain. The same calculated risk is applied to your idea that the brakes will function. The key word is calculated, not blind.

At school and university we are told things which we are expected to take on faith, I agree. Those who suspend intellect continue to believe what they have been told throughout their lives and do not apply any critical thought to those beliefs at all. Those who use their intellect question every sacred cow theory. Sometimes the theory is correct and sometimes it is not, but it needs testing to find out.

My point was, and remains that blind belief is both stupid and dangerous. Skip used a word 'sheeple' in another thread, and I think that is apt. If anyone wishes to believe without proof, or at least some indication - as in the case of the nose - that there is any credibility apart from hearsay or anonymous writing on a forum that is of course their prerogative, but it doesn't stop it being stupid and blinkered. And it does absolutely nothing to advance the cause of hypnotherapy or NLP as valid treatment, but rather brings them into disrepute as the twin homes of illogic and irrationality, peopled by fools who will believe anything.

Jack

[Jack]

Do your really believe that hypnosis can do anything, Poodle?

Jack

The only limitation on hypnosis is the lack of imagination.