Islam & Altered States

[Jack]

In the light of the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in newspapers throughout Europe and the subsequent demonstrations with placards enthusing Muslims to kill or behead anyone, either American or European who offends Islam or the Prophet, I wondered what the views of the forum might be on the trance-like state many of the demonstrators appear to be in?

I am most interested in the similarities between the inductions performed by Adolph Hitler and the inductions performed by Imams and the Muezzin. I know this is a pre-judgement and may be unfair, but it appears to be so.

Thinking about Islam and 12-17th century Catholicism I am always struck by the similarities. Extremists of both religions believe(d) they are totally right and that it is perfectly ethical to kill people who have differing views. Does anyone think that a trance state is required in order to overcome societal taboos against life-taking, and if so how does this sit with the idea that an 'entranced' subject will not do anything which offends their true nature? There is an obvious answer but I am interested in what you all think with particular regard to Islam.

Jack

[thackaray]

It's the power of the belief system that people can identify with, such as Religion and a major common cause like Adolf Hitler with the Arien nation ideal.

I would argue that those who pick and choose bits from that belief system will not be easily entranced to go beyond their true nature than as those who wholly adopt it as their view of the world. Obviously a powerful motivator or influential speaker or a powerful event is so great that these weaker observers of that belief system will then become more easier suggestible to go against their true nature.

[Terry (existing)]

Instead of asking about trance states in this instance, I suggest you observe who it is who is rioting, and why. All persons have the right to believe what they wish, and nobody has the right to insult them because of those beliefs unless such are creating problems for others. The rioters are poor, and have little in their lives except their belief system. Who can blame them if they feel insulted by those who have much more? I am by no means poor, but I assure you, if you insult my beliefs, I will be very angry, and though I don't aprove of burning down buildings, I do understand that rioting brings attention to the insult, and I for one offer an apology to all Muslims on behalf of decent people who want us to live in peace, and friendship. Lord knows, I would hate to change places with someone so poor, so before replying, I walked a mile in their shoes. I suggest you do likewise...

[Don]

Terry, while your analysis is correct, I see no evidence to support your claim that the rioters are poor. I imagine that some may be poor, but there is no evidence that even a small percentage are poor.

Thank you for apologizing to "all Muslims." Question: which Muslims will apologize to Americans, Britons, Europeans, Israelis, Jews, and Christians for the vicious, insulting, and disgusting cartoons that have appeared in some of the major newspapers of many Muslim-dominated countries? I would point out that many of them are in newspapers where the countries are quite wealthy.

[solaris152000]

I was thinking about this the other day.

A national Danish newspaper prints such a comic, I myself have read it and find it in poor taste. It's not particulaly funny, it just spreads hate and ignorance about Islam. Or at least imo. Whilst I firmly belive in their right to print such a thing, it intrigues me that they could afford to.

I mean, if such was printed in the newpaper I read, I would stop buying it as it would be too right wing, and imo just downright ignorant for my tastes.
I think alot of people would feel the same, especially how the UK is very mulitculterual, and I live side by side with Muslims, many of whom are freinds of mine, sure we have more than our fair share of white nationalists on our council, but we still have alot of tollerence and acceptance in our community, this is also mirred across the UK. I don't think a national newspaper overhere could afford to print such a comic, as it would put readers off buying it, becuase I think most people in Britian know that Muslims are decent and peaceful people.

So the fact that a Danish newspaper could afford to do such a thing highlights that maybe Denmark as a society, isn't as educated about and Tollerent of Islam as we are. I listen to a Danish Immran on the radio saying similar things, he said there is alot of Racism against Muslims in Denmark and this cartoon was the final straw. "The Straw that Broke the Camells Back" if you will.

Also, we have to be very important about looking at so called "Muslims" we see in the press. I know alot of Muslims and have studied Islam at school, and belive that Islam is a largly peaceful religion. Your average Muslim is just as disgusted at Al-Quadia as the rest of us, and are upset that these fanatics, are used a steriotype for Islam, or at least an association which such a lovely people do not deserve.

Question: which Muslims will apologize to Americans, Britons, Europeans, Israelis, Jews, and Christians for the vicious, insulting, and disgusting cartoons that have appeared in some of the major newspapers of many Muslim-dominated countries?
Without trying to get too political, I'm not going to criticise the Muslim world for 'insulting' the west. In the last 100 years, we have done so much damage and killed so many innocent Muslims that mere words are nothing compared to the horrors we have inflicted onto the Middle East.

[Terry (existing)]

Don I was not intimating that ALL Moslems are poor, that would be both foolish and ignorant. However, most of those demonstrating are indeed poor, and only have religious beliefs to make life more comfortable. Those who demonstated in wealthier countries did NOT go the the extremes that we saw on th TV screen, though of course these may have been staged also! In Canada we have the hate law to take care of the sort of garbage that led to the riots, and no I am not supporting the stupid activities, but I do support those who object when their religion is being insulted. As far as who will apologise to us, who cares, we are responsible for OUR actions not theirs, and if they don't accept our apology, or don't support us when we are right, so what, the problem is with then not us. I allow each their rights, and that includes the right to be wrong, because one day I may be wrong and in need of forgiveness....

[solaris152000]

-Those who demonstated in wealthier countries did NOT go the the extremes that we saw on th TV screen, though of course these may have been staged also


One person over here dressed as a suicide bomber, had mock explosives and everything :eek:

[nUnregistered]

In the light of the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in newspapers throughout Europe and the subsequent demonstrations with placards enthusing Muslims to kill or behead anyone, either American or European who offends Islam or the Prophet, I wondered what the views of the forum might be on the trance-like state many of the demonstrators appear to be in?

I am most interested in the similarities between the inductions performed by Adolph Hitler and the inductions performed by Imams and the Muezzin. I know this is a pre-judgement and may be unfair, but it appears to be so.

Thinking about Islam and 12-17th century Catholicism I am always struck by the similarities. Extremists of both religions believe(d) they are totally right and that it is perfectly ethical to kill people who have differing views. Does anyone think that a trance state is required in order to overcome societal taboos against life-taking, and if so how does this sit with the idea that an 'entranced' subject will not do anything which offends their true nature? There is an obvious answer but I am interested in what you all think with particular regard to Islam.

Jack

by whatever demographic the rioters are(poor, rich, literate, illiterate, uneducated, advanced degreed, etc), its clear to me that they have been taught a double standard by their clergyman(or iman). their newspapers have been "spewing" anti semitic articles for decades and yet the minute the European newspapers printed those cartoons, they "lost their cool".

too bad they haven't been taught "how to run their brains" rather than vice versa. what a difference some state management methods might make to them. but then that could be said about most of the people on this planet

Jim

[Don]

Without trying to get too political, I'm not going to criticise the Muslim world for 'insulting' the west. In the last 100 years, we have done so much damage and killed so many innocent Muslims that mere words are nothing compared to the horrors we have inflicted onto the Middle East.

You're absolutely correct, the Muslims have been treated horribly by Western powers, as well as by some of their own leaders. Nothing you or I can do will change that.

However, the racist, murderous, hate-filled propaganda that fills many Muslim papers has fueled what is going on, and the riots going on over cartoons! are going to have no effect on those past situations.

[Don]

most of those demonstrating are indeed poor

I have seen nothing that supports this contention. How do you tell that most of the demonstrators are poor?

[Unregistered101]

Jack,
I'm not sure if I understood you correctly.

<...Does anyone think that a trance state is required in order to overcome societal taboos against life-taking, and if so how does this sit with the idea that an 'entranced' subject will not do anything which offends their true nature?...>

I think your sentence lacks and object or a subject, I have bad grammer :-(. Societal taboos against life-taking of whom? The society as a whole approves of life-taking if the conditions are met. Meet those conditions or make someone believe those conditions have been met and you can turn life-taking into something essential, holy or whatever. So IMO, don't think there's anything against true nature going on here.

<...the inductions performed by Adolph Hitler and the inductions performed by Imams and the Muezzin...>

From what I have seen and heard, these type of inductions have the same power as a song does. Some like some don't, gather a crowd with a majority that do and they'll probably start screaming. But long term violence needs more than that. Something like, take a lot away from them in the real world and then show them an illusion that they link to a bunch of good feelings.

Don and Terry,

Don I think answering your question would be pretty hard. And I defininatly can't talk about all countries. But I can talk about Iran. Many demonstrations are sort of staged. Meaning that a majority of the people participating are have some sort of wordly interest involved. Many times government offices take people, so they're scared and they go. They take students from school (who mostly run away once they hit the crowd). Many are brought in buses from nearby towns into big cities, these are usually the poor you just want to catch a free ride to the city. A big fraction are as Terry says from the poor parts of city. And last but the least they always make it look bigger on TV.
Now the thing about these people being poor is not that they are all hungry or cold in the winter. It's that their lives are totally static. They are people whose lives never change and are mostly somewhere between heaven and hell. They take pride in their values and mostly their loyalty. They take pride in not being needy and not being attached to the material world, and they take pride in fighting to death for what they believe in. Now they might not be any of these but this is how they precieve themselves.

As for the muslim countries. I can tell you that a dictatorship can really make you twisted. I really don't understand how it works. But it's like you feel helpless when you are actually capable of doing soemthing. You feel powerful when you actually have very limited or non at all capacity to do something. You refrain from doiing the small easy things that can change your life but you go through great hardship to do things that do you no good or even harm you. You totally refrain from taking any responsibility what so ever with your own life, indulging yourself in endless conspiricy theories. You feel that since you have been deprived of so many things you have an inherant right to be angry and show this anger in the form of violence.

None of what I say makes it right for these people to harm others but I do think that if dynamics of theseevents were understood correctly maybe they could be prevented.

[Don]

Unregistered, I'm certainly not going to disagree with you in regard to Iran. However most of the riots are taking place in a wide variety of other areas, including non-Moslem controlled countries.

[Poodle]

First I think one should read the Quoran to see exactly how wonderfully it fits with our "Western" Bible. It is actually more comforming than Judiaism. We have mistreated these people horribly and by we, I mean the USA. So they have differing beliefs than I do. I have always been treated very well in their countries and enjoy talking to them, seeing their countries, learning about them and their magnificent history. To me it is one of my favorite parts of the world as it is so different from what we are used to. Even going way back in history, many of these countries were the beginning of civilization, especially Iraq. The only thing I don't like is the 4am call to prayer and I must admit I made an ass out of myself on that one!

[Charlie]

:confused:

I wonder why all the fuss about recent cartoons/images of mohammed etc.

Images of mohammed are nothing new:

link : mohammed images (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/)

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon4.gif

[Jack]

Hello Unregistered101,

I have confused you, my apologies.The sentence was intended to be as it was to elicit a specific response, which it did not since this has turned into a debate about religion rather than one about hypnotic states.

Life taking in British society for religious purposes is not condoned and is illegal. My question was intended to find out if, in the opinion of members, these societal strictures could be broken by the extremities of a religious belief system that regards anything other than itself as a target to be eliminated. Logically that would appear to be so. Following on from that is the question whether a trance state is required to perform an act of religiously inspired life-taking. I appreciate the opinion you gave, which seemed to come from some first hand knowledge of a Muslim state. Is this so?

Terry, regarding the good point about poverty: I agree that many of the disenfranchised peoples of the world turn to violence to be heard. But, Osama Bin Laden is neither poor nor uneducated and several of the protestors in London were neither poor nor uneducated. The chap who was carrying the fake bomb was actually a drug dealer on parole. To his credit he apologised and I wonder if this was a result of emerging from a trance state or the result of fear that he would be sent back to prison?

My feelings is that the UK is one of the most tolerant societies in the world, but that is a weakness, since it allows the exploitation of democracy and tolerance by extemists of all kinds. Whatever, do you think it is ok to carry banners instructing others to kill or behead people simply because they are not Muslim? And do you not think this represents a mind set related to an altered state since the action suggested is both illegal and barbaric?

Hoever, I do resent your assumption that I have never been poor.You know nothing about me and whether or not I have walked in anyone's shoes. What I have seen at first hand is the damage that human beings do to each other in the name of race, creed, colour or possessions. I have seen enough of that to last a lifetime.

But, I don't want to turn this into a political debate. The original question was about altered states and so far only Unregistered 101 has responded to that. Any other thoughts, chaps and chapesses?

Jack

[Charlie]

Any other thoughts, chaps and chapesses?

No, but I thought this was quite funny:

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/media-pictures/behead.jpg

:D

[Don]

Charlie, tell me that's a gag and not real! :eek:

[Charlie]

Charlie, tell me that's a gag and not real! :eek:

I really HOPE that it's a gag!

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon4.gif

[Poodle]

Interesting. If it were not for the incite to riot the USA would still be a British colony.

[Charlie]

Interesting. If it were not for the incite to riot the USA would still be a British colony.

Instead it's the other way round. We have become a colony of USA.:D

Interestingly, our British PM, Tony Blair, is often (scathingly) referred to as George Bush's......................... Poodle.

(I kid you not)

[Sleep]

I really HOPE that it's a gag!

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon4.gif


Looks like it could be a good photoshop job, though i can't be certain. There seems to have been two different pens used which could possibly mean two seperate signs merged together, the edges also look slightly un-natural. Tough to say unless it was bigger though.

[Poodle]

Tony Blair keeps bad company. Poor bloke got let down the primrose path, so to speak. I actually feel very sorry for him as I like the guy or at least what I know of him. I do promise you, tho, that I own a real Poodle who often sits in my lap when I post; hence the name "Poodle".

[Unregistered101]

Jack,
<...which seemed to come from some first hand knowledge of a Muslim state. Is this so?>
Yes, that is correct.
<...these societal strictures could be broken by the extremities of a religious belief system that regards anything other than itself as a target to be eliminated. Logically that would appear to be so. >
I think this can be done, though I would think that what is more common is a case by case basis rather than 'anything other than itself'.
<...Following on from that is the question whether a trance state is required to perform an act of religiously inspired life-taking.>
That would be hard for me to judge since I don't know hypnosis or trance. I do know that during the Iran-Iraq conflict it was common practice to have prayers before nights of attack which were aimed at getting people not to think about their lives and be willing to die. Would that be considered a trance induction?
Although I might add that after some time it didn't prevent soldiers from running away. So if a trance is supposed to stick...well

I personally think that if someone claims they take a life away because of their religious beliefs 90% of the time they are lieing. They do it because of more simple personal and wordly interests. And the people that provoke others to do so know this very well. That's why their 'inductions' if you may want to call it are never just pure abstract religious ideas. They take the most simplest things that you may be pissed off at in your day to day life, amplify it and then link it to some sort of religious ideal which acts like a trigger. Would this constitute as trance? I don't know.

Don,
That's true, not all of them are happening in muslim controlled states. But I think if policies regarding immigrants changed, these things could be prevented in the future.

[Don]

Unreg, you're right. If certain immigration policies are changed, there would be major differences. Of course, if we sterilized all males, all violence and riots would end within 100 years.

[Jack]

Unreg101,

You make some valid points. I can remember witnessing a demonstration in one particular Middle-Eastern country and saw several of the leaders of the demo receiving money from what I took to be the secret police, but may have been jihadists. There is a cultural precedent for this in the way in which professional mourners are paid to attend the funerals of people they do not know and engage in enthusiastic and vociferous mourning.

Simply put, a trance is a state in which immediate conscious volition is removed. The person 'hypnotised' may then be more amenable to suggestions made by a third party. Prayers, if rhythmic and repeated can induce a trance or the 'moment of passivity'. The call to prayers made by a muezzin similarly has an 'hypnotic' quality and may even be what we would term an 'anchor': that is a reminder to the subconscious of a previous experience which can induce the emotions and actions of that circumstance. The sound of church bells of Christianity is a parallel. The sound is an invitation to shift into 'religious mode'.

French Templars in the First Crusade(1097) to recapture Jerusalem would spend much of the night before a battle in repeated prayer, physically mortifying themselves with scourges and expecting to die for God(Fulcher). Pain became an anchor to the belief and it must have been a relief to actually engage in battle and almost hope for pain to reinforce the belief of 'rightness' and the promise of Paradise. This may have been a trance state, and I wonder if all soldiers have to be in this state in order to take the life of another human being?

This begs the question: what if there was a way of breaking all such states and thereby preventing mortal conflict? Propaganda may help to do this, but there are several methods I can think of which would achieve this much more quickly and effectively,(as I'm sure other hypnos and ex members of psy-ops units:eek: will concur) but which I will not mention on an open forum.

As for running away, well, the subconscious has a set of imperatives and the primary one is the survival of the body and by proxy itself, so any suggestions made should be overwhelmed by the primary imperative to survive, unless there are other considerations which are more important to the individual. The idea of guaranteed Heaven, Paradise, Valhalla may be one such, dying a hero's death may be another, or the sacrificing of one's life for an imagined greater good could be yet another.

I take your point that small personal issues can be used as a trigger to demonise the 'enemy'. Make them responsible for all your ills and their removal or disempowerment means that you no longer feel so bad. For instance, slavery was in existence for many thousands of years before the white man first came to Africa. Little mention is made of this today, because it suits a particularly divisive political agenda to believe that the white man is responsible for not only slavery but the life prospects of every black man. It is interesting to note that no Europeans hold the Romans responsible for enslaving their nations, but the Romans were great slave-takers and were preceded by Arab cultures who still maintain slavery to this day. It could be that the Roman slave trade is a distant event and perhaps the belief that the Caucasian is responsible for the slave-trade will also vanish in time.

My own personal belief is that all of us are in some sort of trance for most of the time, and only occasionally does clarity break through.

What do others think?

Jack

[Unregistered101]

Don,
Do you mean people should stop blaming policies and start taking responsibility?
If so, I agree with that. I didn't mean that bad policies were to blame for what these people are doing. I meant maybe a change of laws might curtail future problems.

[Don]

Yes, I do mean that the fault likes with the individual, not the laws. And as I wrote, if we passed incredibly stern laws, all problems would end...

along with freedom.

[Shaukat Muhammad]

Terry, while your analysis is correct, I see no evidence to support your claim that the rioters are poor. I imagine that some may be poor, but there is no evidence that even a small percentage are poor.

Thank you for apologizing to "all Muslims." Question: which Muslims will apologize to Americans, Britons, Europeans, Israelis, Jews, and Christians for the vicious, insulting, and disgusting cartoons that have appeared in some of the major newspapers of many Muslim-dominated countries? I would point out that many of them are in newspapers where the countries are quite wealthy.
Thanks to aplogize all muslims. I on behalf of all muslims wanted to apologize on publishing of cartoons in mulsims countries newspapaers. No one has the right to insult any one's faith whether its true or wrong. having a faith is totally a personal matter if it is not harmful to others. Anyhow, I am quite happy that few peoples like you have the understnading that what is good or what is wrong.

[Shaukat Muhammad]

Terry, while your analysis is correct, I see no evidence to support your claim that the rioters are poor. I imagine that some may be poor, but there is no evidence that even a small percentage are poor.

Thank you for apologizing to "all Muslims." Question: which Muslims will apologize to Americans, Britons, Europeans, Israelis, Jews, and Christians for the vicious, insulting, and disgusting cartoons that have appeared in some of the major newspapers of many Muslim-dominated countries? I would point out that many of them are in newspapers where the countries are quite wealthy.
Thanks to aplogize all muslims. I on behalf of all muslims wanted to apologize on publishing of cartoons in mulsims countries newspapaers. No one has the right to insult any one's faith whether its true or wrong. having a faith is totally a personal matter if it is not harmful to others. Anyhow, I am quite happy that few peoples like you have the understnading that what is good or what is wrong.

[Black]

It is very difficult to get a clear picture just by watching TV. Editors delete (as the NLP term) much info and often focus you on one thing. In this case they do not show you other people, and there is certainly a number of reactions. They just show you demon-strators. After repeating enough, muslim = terrorist anchors inevitably. The similar thing has been done on the other side.

Unfortunately, this might be a sign of new military actions. Cartoons are not the cause, but a public justification for certain political tendencies.

[solaris152000]

It is very difficult to get a clear picture just by watching TV. Editors delete (as the NLP term) much info and often focus you on one thing. In this case they do not show you other people, and there is certainly a number of reactions. They just show you demon-strators. After repeating enough, muslim = terrorist anchors inevitably. The similar thing has been done on the other side.

Unfortunately, this might be a sign of new military actions. Cartoons are not the cause, but a public justification for certain political tendencies.

Indeed. We have seen the bais's of the press previously CNN, FOX and even the BBC, so we can't really rely on what were seeing is accruate.