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Steve
05-11-2004, 10:12 AM
Hello,

I don't like Annie's posts when she makes *personal* comments.
Sometimes it needs editing/deleting.

But this method of deleting, then posting:
<Personal attack edited>
seems just as low and despicable. Is this an attempt at public humiliation?
I hoped this board would be above this, even if individuals here have occasional problems with getting personal.

Don
05-11-2004, 02:23 PM
Hi, Steve.

Unfortunately, as long as anyone makes personal attacks, we end up in a lose-lose-lose situation. Allowing people to post personal attacks, as you have pointed out (and let's keep this general) produces a situation which you don't like. I don't like to see it, either, and I think most people don't like it. This doesn't mean we have to become bland--there's no reason we can't disagree without being disagreeable.

If we delete material because of personal attacks without an explanation, the nature of this software indicates that the deletion has been made. Personally, I support this. Readers, I think, have the right to know if a post has been edited. Without knowing <i>why</i> it has been edited will make readers (and often the original poster) think that some sort of agenda against and individual resulting in censorship is in place.

If we delete something due and clearly indicate why the comments were deleted, you seem to be against that too.

So, you see, we are in a lose-lose-lose situation. What do you suggest as an alternative to deleting sections or entire posts and describing why?

Being honored as one of the moderators, I think it is fair to say why I would (and have) deleted all or part of a post.

1) Unwarranted personal attacks. This is a fine line. If somebody writes, "I disagree with you because based on my sources, your information is false," I do not think that is a personal attack. If somebody writes "I disagree with you and and I think you and everyone like you are evil and should be locked up," that is a personal attack.

2) Agenda/advertising. Again, a fine line. If somebody asks for information about a book or a website that could help them, that could be considered advertising. In fact, I've seen some advertisers use this very sort of advertising technique (or ones similar to it). I it my hope that these forums can help share and spread information, not sell it.

Sometimes, people have a particular "agenda" to push. I have nothing against that, but unfortunately, sometimes people with an agenda will push this agenda in all of their posts (often numerous ones) and frequently this has nothing to do with the thread on which they are posting. Further, such agenda posts tend to be long and frequently not make sense as people with such agendas often use words and expressions which are only understandable within the context of their agenda. Such posts (and you can see them in a wide variety of newsgroups) waste bandwidth and time.

4) Inflammatory writing. People who frequent internet newsgroups know that one of the basic "rules" of making posts is that if you've lost an argument or have no case, accuse people who disagree with you of being Nazis, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pat, etc. This type of inflammatory writing certainly does not further the discussion. Rather, it tends to polarize and anger people. That will only push people away.

I hope that the traffic to our forum increases. One great way to increase interest is through open discussion, disagreement, and controversy. But personal attacks, advertising, agendizing (like my new word?) and inflammatory comments only tend to push people away.

skip
05-11-2004, 02:43 PM
Steve,

I have known you for years, I respect you, and I know Annie is your partner and friend. The problem isnt Don, or Matt, or myself. It is Annie.

In a direct, shoulder to shoulder, eye to eye, answer to your question, Steve, it is a clear and deliberate attempt to stop personal attacks on this forum. Period.

I could have deleted the posts entirely, but then I would also need to delete replies, and it makes for awfully spotty threads. AND just because Annie is insulting or slanderous in some of her comments, it doesnt mean that she, or those who reply to her, have nothing at all, worthwhile to say, in their entire post. We dont feel that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is an issue, (deleting/editing posts) that we have been discussing at length lately. The sole purpose is to eliminate personal attacks, while mantaining high readibility in the threads.

We had people deleting/editing posts on their own, and some deleting due to moderating. We have had personal attack posts, appear for a few hours, or days, and then disappaer, or completely change content. In some cases it meant an entire thread was unreadable, confusing, or what replies were left, were without context. This is why post editing, and deleting were turned off.

Personally, I am in favor of leaving everyone's posts pretty much alone, the less moderation the better. This way people who read a post that resonates with them can do a search, based on that person's name ,and find out more about who they are by reading others of their posts. That way people get to know us, warts and all. But we are looking for some consistancy here, so that people who post have some preditability, about what is acceptable, and what is not.

We have tried deleting entire posts, and it isnt satisfactory for the lists purposes, nor has it stopped Annie's personal attacks.

We have had one other poster, make a personal attack ( this time against Annie) and the offending material was deleted, with the comment, <Deleted personal attack>. This person has not attacked anyone since. We have had one person make an inappropriate post, and not only was the post deleted, another post was placed by Matt explaining publically why. This person has not made an inappropriate post since. When we delete, spam, we say <Deleted spam>. And we havent had repeat spammers.

I am recounting this, only to make sure you understand that if Annie seems to have been singled out, it is only because she continues, after having been repeatedly 'moderated'. I feel sure you dont want Annie subject to "special consideration", which would mean to me, no extra scrutiny, or special lattitude.

We are trying now, to just delete the personal attack portions of the posts. Or the entire post if it seems to have no other purpose.

And I'll agree, what constitutes a personal attack is subjective. This is why I have not edited/deleted Annie's material directed at me. Don has not edited/deleted Annie's material directed at him.

There is another consideration to make here, Steve. Don and I are moderators, it is our job to read, and make 'editorial changes' or delete posts that do not conform to the lists standards. We also have day jobs. This means that both of us now spend more time reading posts, because before we only read those which interested us, now we read them all. It is not fair, or reasonable, that we (Don, Matt, and myself) should have to undertake daily, to repeatedly sanitize, someone posts, When they either dont have the self discipline to control themselves, or are willfully engaging in hooliganism.

If it is embarrasing, and/or humiliating, to Annie, to have <Personal attack deleted> appearing in her posts, there is a very simple solution, that we all would be very happy with: Annie could stop posting personal attacks. If you are convinced, in your own mind that Annie is incapable of this, then perhaps you, as her friend, partner, and mentor, would undertake to guide her in posting, prior to it becomming "our" problem.

thank you,

skip

Steve
05-12-2004, 10:44 AM
Hello Don, Skip,

I fully support moderating posts. Long ago, I had volunteered to be a moderator and had brief e-mail discussions with Matt about this. But, nothing ever came of it :(
I'm glad we now have some moderation.

My concern is when I look at the threads or archives. Seeing <Personal attack edited> just seems unprofessional and beneath what I would hope to see here at this forum. I'm sure you've tried to find a better means and I have no doubt this method would work. But I really am disappointed so see such tactics used, regardless of who is moderated.
I would imagine a less harsh method would work for most people. Maybe removing the offending material and sending an e-mail explanation? That way the offender is notified, yet the forum does not have such marks in its archives.:)

Please keep in mind, my comments are about the methods used, not the individual moderated. This was just the first time I've seen it done like this.

Don
05-12-2004, 06:55 PM
Hi, Steve.

In fact, I have notified people in some cases when I've made an edit.

However, if we do edit out some material, this forum indicates it. Are you suggesting we leave it blank? Wouldn't that result in people wondering what was edited and why the edit was made?

I'm open to suggestions.

Ideally--and what I would like to see--there would be no need for editing at all. That can be achieved if people respond to thread without personal attacks and if people don't use this forum to sell a product or a position.

skip
05-13-2004, 08:27 AM
Steve,

I referee soccer at the high school, and college level. It is a fast paced game where I must make split second decisions, about both, rules and the spirit of the game infractions, while play is ongoing

The rules of soccer provide specific sanctions for certain infractions. They include awarding a free kick, yellow card, and red card.

That's it.

If a free kick is awarded, it represents an advantage to the team taking the kick. That advantage, generally at a minimum, restores possession of the ball, and at a maximum, virtually guarantees a goal, if awarded from the penalty spot, which is 12 yards out from the goal, and only one defender allowed.

A yellow card offense, means the offending player is persistently offending, dissenting, or openly questioning the calls of the referee, playing in an unsportsman like manner, playing dangerously, or other type infractions. It warns the offending player that their continued behavior will result in them being ejected from the game. If a player accrues two yellow cards in one game, they are ejected from the game, they can be substituted for, but the offending player must sit out the remainder of the game, and the entire next game their team plays.

If a player commits a more serious foul, they receive a red card. They are ejected from the game, they must sit out their teams next game, AND their team plays short handed the remainder of the game, because they cannot be substituted for.

All of these sanctions are handed out publicly, and some might seem to be harsh, or humiliating, and some of the sanctions prescribed by the rules, I personally don’t feel warrant that serious a sanction. But I am not there to decide which rules to apply, and which to ignore, I am there to enforce the rules as they are. And you can imagine what happens when I whistle a foul, and the player says, "I didn’t know that was illegal." Well now they know.

Interestingly enough, some players try diligently to play within the rules all the time. Occasionally they mess up, but it is the exception not the norm for them. Some kids play deliberately on the edge, and they accept the sanctions as a normal cost of doing business. They know they are on the edge, and occasionally slip over, and they don’t quibble when they get a foul called. These kids are a pleasure to work with, even though they are highly competitive, and play hard to win.

There are some kids, who consistently foul, because they don’t care about the rules, or they aren’t as skilled, and they are trying to make up for it, by playing illegally, or some other reason. Some kids think the rules should be applied to everyone else but them, and they constantly foul, and then cry and fuss, if they themselves get bumped. These are the kids who, thru any given season, receive the majority of the yellow and red cards.

Now I wont go into why specific sanctions are awarded when, because that would take too long. Suffice to say this post is about effect.

If a player fouls another, and I blow the whistle, stop play, and award a free kick; there is no need for me to explain to the player what they did. They know what they did, they are supposed to know the rules, and they just have received immediate, public feedback, on their actions. They can see that they have hurt their team.

If I am required by the rules to issue a yellow card, the player knows, not only have they hurt the team, but that they need to get themselves under control, if they want to continue to contribute to the team’s effort, much less stay in the game for personal pleasure.

Obviously issuing a red card, the player knows they have seriously jeopardized their team’s chances of winning that game, and if they are important to the team, quite possibly their team’s chances of winning the next game. Not to mention their personal loss.

Monday night I was refereeing, in the first round of the high school district tournaments. The winner of this game, plays again the next night, the loser goes home, their season over.

Late in the game, his team with the game well in hand, a player took it upon himself to dispute a possession call. The ball went out of bounds. Both my assistant referee and I saw it as having been touched last, by this player’s team, and awarded the throw to the other team. This player however, decided that both my assistant and myself were ... well that would require a mind read. Suffice to say, he vigorously, and loudly began an editorial comment about everything he knew, I had done wrong the entire game. In the rulebook, this is called "dissent" and requires a yellow card sanction. He was promptly rewarded for his efforts.

Now here we are with 8 minutes left to go in the game, his team up by 3 goals. It is an absolutely foolish thing to do, to get yourself sanctioned, over something that isn’t likely to have any bearing on the outcome of the game. Anyone with good sense would be thinking about, staying focused on the present moment, playing good defense, preserving the lead, any number of possible things.

Unfortunately 18-year-old males aren’t necessarily noted for good sense. And as a result instead, this player began to focus on everything he thought had been “wrongfully” done to him and his team. This player continued to make commentary on his way off the field. Which constitutes a second “dissent” offense. AND he sat on the bench, continuing, in his coach’s presence, to make comment. Third, fourth, and fifth ... offenses.

Now I was on the other side of the field, and could not hear him. But my assistant on that side could. Soccer, having been around for a while, has experience with almost every possible infraction context. And the Rules provide for this too. We are not supposed to stop play, to sanction this, BUT at the first opportune stoppage, it is supposed to be sanctioned. I don’t know what this young man thought. Perhaps he thought because nothing happened to him right away, that he was getting away with it. Or perhaps he thought it was OK, that he had paid his dues, the yellow card, and now he was entitled to fuss all he wanted. His continued dissent was encouraging his teammates to join in, which put them in jeopardy of being sanctioned as well. OR the coach could have been sanctioned which would have resulted in a $500.00 fine. This kid didnt care about anyone else, he was focused only on what was going on inside his head.

At any rate, my assistant got my attention, during a stoppage. I called time out, and my assistant and I discussed it. My assistant explained to me, what the kid was doing, and that the coach standing no more than 6 feet away must also be hearing the same stuff.

I then called the coach, and the young man on the field for a conference. Picture this, everyone in the entire stadium is wondering what is going on. I explained what my assistant had told me. The coach agreed that he had heard the kid, as he came off the field, and he agreed, that that constituted a second dissent offense. The coach then said he wasn’t aware of the young man continuing on the bench, and the other players beginning to take part.

I issued a second yellow card to this player. It was public, and no doubt humiliating. I expect it was humiliating to the coach as well. I expect it was humiliating to whomever it was that explained it, to the parents. I expect it was humiliating to the parents.

It meant that he could not participate in his team's next game the following night, their last game of the season, as it turns out, because they lost the next night. He was one of their best players, so I imagine his sitting out played a part in the loss. If he was a senior, it means he missed his team’s last game of his senior year. That's sad.

Now it would be ludicrous for me to concern myself with all those things that would occur later that night, or the next day. The rules are simple, and clear, and the sanctions aren’t open to interpretation.

One of the things I like about sports, is they can teach you a lot about life. Later in life, this young man will hopefully carry with him the lesson, a bit of egocentricity on his part in a soccer game, in his youth, cost him, and people he cared about. It would be my hope that, he, in the future, learns to temper his actions, and to think about the repercussions they will have on other people. Hopefully his coach, and his parents, and his school administrators, and even his teammates will help him to understand, and to grow past this.

It seems more likely, given the ircumstances, that instead, he will continue to blame me, and his coach, who was allowing it to continue, will not correct him, and his parents and friends, will conclude that I just had it in for him, for some reason.

So be it.

That makes it likely he will then have the opportunity for even greater public humiliation, at a later time in his life, when the stakes are greater. And he will still think it isn’t his fault.

And that is truly sad.

Steve, I don’t have the luxury, of considering all those future possibilities, good or bad. I don’t have the time to help guide in one direction, or another, and frankly most of the time my guidance wouldn’t be taken at face value anyway. Because I have a different agenda. I am there to apply the rules. It doesn’t make the game safe, it isn’t to molly coddle them. It is to see that both teams have the opportunity, to contest their skills, on an even playing field. It is to promote the spirit of sportsmanship, which is of far greater importance, than the wants of any individual player, no matter who they think they are.

Since I am the focal point, often I am held responsible by the fans, when their team suffers. Sometimes by the players and coaches too. But you and I both know, it is their own actions, that result in their being sanctioned.

It is easy to lose focus these days. So often we begin thinking about the suffering of the person being sanctioned. We might think some sanction was too severe, and our heart goes out to the person who is suffering. We tend to forget that when the rules are neglected, or deliberately broken, there is another player, or team, who suffers, as a result. And we don’t think about, if those rules weren’t enforced what would happen to the game as a whole.

The young man refused to control himself, and both he, and his team suffered because of it. If I had not done what I did, unpopular with some as it might have been, the other team, and the game as a whole, would have suffered for it.

Moderating is, at times, a bit like refereeing soccer.

You are concerned that other people reading in a post <Personal attack deleted> will come to the conclusion that this is an unfriendly place. That they will perhaps go elsewhere, somewhere they feel is more kind. I think this presumes that we will continue to have a lot of posts containing personal attacks. And I hope that assumption is mistaken. I think even the most reclariant, will realize, that if they wish to continue to post, they too must play by the rules.

skip

Obi Wan
05-13-2004, 02:02 PM
I've sat and read this thread through the past several days with a slight voyeurism. Not really wanting to get involved for fear of retribution.



I've often refrained from getting involved in posts, that in my opinion are nothing but personal attacks, because of my personal loyalties to Advanced Neuro Dynamics, Matt James and American Pacific University.



I personally find it disrespectful that someone would refer to Tad James as Dad James. Why would you discredit what Matt James had done with Advanced Neuro Dynamics because his father founded the company, not only that but have to constantly bring this up? Or, discredit time-line therapy? Or, discredit Skip or Don's opinion because they recommend a certify agency? Or, discredit anyone that decides to charge what they think they're worth? Or, discredit anyone because they choose to get a certification? I don't get it!



To me it's sad that we need to have moderators. In a community of Practitioners, Master Practitioners, and Trainers of NLP and hypnosis, my hope would be that we could have enough self-regulation and state control that we wouldn't need an external source to regulate us. In my opinion there would be no "public humiliation" if people had some empathy and regulated themselves



In the event of a slip up to have enough trust in the people on this community to let us know that what we've done is unacceptable, learn and move on.



Not everyone lives by my anarchist principles, so moderation is needed.

There is no Failure, only feedback! Look at the amazing feedback that is being provided to people in this community.

And the patience that not only the moderators of this forum have provided but the patience the rest of the community has provided to allow members of the community to grow. I know that I've experienced this patience on here and I have immense gratitude for it. Due to this patience I've been able to help myself grow.



I appreciate what both Skip and Don are doing; I thank them for doing it. I know that I only have enough time to regulate myself, So when people are unable to do that it's nice to know there's someone looking out for the best interests of this community.

Steve
05-14-2004, 02:05 PM
hello,

Skip,
I understand your point. My perspective is that this current meathod is more like putting the name up on the scoreboard, then leaving the name on the scoreboard for the rest of the season and even beyond.

Don,
My suggestion would be one e-mail warning, then disabling the account for 2 weeks. I would double the 'time out' for each future offense (4 weeks the next time, 2 months if it happened again
).

Don
05-14-2004, 06:29 PM
Hi, Steve.

Are you suggesting simply deleting the message with no public indication as to why? And should we also delet the entire message or just something which is negative?

Matt is out of town right now, but he will get to this and consider it.

Thanks for your input.

TaffyE
05-14-2004, 11:11 PM
Hi All,

I believe that moderation of the forum was initially requested because of both "trolls" and personal attacks.
Trolls have gone, but personal attacks continue.

I go along with Skip's analogy to soccer. As a player and fan of many sports over the years, a quiet word of warning from the referee goes unheeded, and there is a need for the "public humiliation" of a yellow or red card before the individual modifies their behaviour.
I have to admit to an inappropriate posting that has been deleted, and have learned my lesson - which anyone who makes personal attacks (often unwarranted) should also learn.
Requests to desist have been ignored. Time for "cards" to be shown.

Respect IMO has to be earned, but everyone is ENTITLED to courtesy. Personal attacks, in my view, display a total lack of that basic social skill.

Again IMO <personal attack> does not imply humiliation. It merely tells the rest of us that the poster lacks courtesy, both to the person attacked and the readers of the post. Most of us are probably not interested in the poster's personal opinions of others.

skip
05-15-2004, 10:48 AM
Steve,

"Skip, I understand your point. My perspective is that this current method is more like putting the name up on the scoreboard, then leaving the name on the scoreboard for the rest of the season and even beyond."

I agree that's true for the individual offending post, Steve. However as lists like this, and others, go, posts cycle thru being popular, and on top of the list for a while, and then gradually drift into obscurity. I would tend to surmise that unless someone continued to offend, in which case, perhaps his or her name ought be left on the scoreboard; the "embarrassing label" would gradually drift into obscurity as well.

AND Steve, it is still taking focus off of the offender, and what the offender themselves can do about it.

It isn’t the rules, or the sanctions, or the 'referees', it is the offender that is the problem, and it is the offender who can affect the most elegant solution. If people stop making personal attacks, they will stop seeing this in their posts. It is actually that easy. And gradually they can alter the reputation they have created for themselves. If someone is incapable of posting without making personal attacks, why is there a concern, with what indication is made for the editing, or how long it lasts?


"Don, My suggestion would be one e-mail warning, then disabling the account for 2 weeks. I would double the 'time out' for each future offense (4 weeks the next time, 2 months if it happened again)."

Steve, I like this approach, in part. I do not know if the software lends itself to this or not. It doesnt answer what to do about the offending post(s). And I wonder at what point, it is fair and reasonable, to decide someone is incorrigible, and remove their posting ability altogether?

Moreover, I know Matt had difficulty with DRNURSE. Matt removed DRNURSE, and DRNURSE responded by posting as DRNNURSE. This went back and forth for a bit, and eventually Matt was forced to pre-empt, and block numerous variations of the DRNURSE name.

Look at the problem here, Steve. Think of the time and effort Matt was forced to go thru for one knucklehead. Matt had to take up his personal time to do this. Don and I have to take our time to do these things. That is a real aggravation, Steve, and maybe it comes with the territory.

The next step logically, would be to simply block the ISP, but you know as well as I, that would hurt innocent people. I understand it was considered by Matt re: DRNURSE. Fortunately DRNURSE saw the futility before that had to occur.

And what’s the best solution? The persistent offender either recognizes that they bring embarrassment and humiliation upon themselves, or for them to realize that it is futile to continue as they have in the past, because what they want to say, wont be posted. That is IF they are embarrassed and or humiliated; I have seen some who manage to convince themselves they are martyrs, and consider it a badge of honor,

It is really much better for everyone, if something like that happens rather than having to impose sanctions, especially for the individual concerned. That way they control the entire content of their posts.

But that's just my opinion.

skip

Steve
05-17-2004, 02:03 PM
hello,

One of my problems with the current method is that it stays in the archives that way.
Yes, threads fade. But I have also seen posters say they have read the archives before posting.

Perhaps it could just say "moderated for content" or some such thing? Then send a warning email to the offender.

TaffyE
05-17-2004, 08:04 PM
So Steve, you seem to be saying that it is OK to publicly vilify anyone without being publicly punished in any way?

skip
05-20-2004, 05:33 AM
On another list I belong to, I just saw this editorial comment on a post that was moderated.

"[parting shot of vitriol snipped]"

Is that preferable? :)

skip

Steve
05-20-2004, 10:30 AM
hello,

No, I'm suggesting we not have such things in our archives

Steve
05-20-2004, 10:33 AM
hello Skip,

What I am suggesting is that we not have such comments in our archives.

If it were posted for all to see (regardless of the method used, then it were to be removed for the archives, I would have much less problem with it But that's alot of work and i don't want to suggest so much extra work for the moderatoras.

Unregistered
05-20-2004, 07:59 PM
People establish their own track record here. Archives shouldn't be sanitized in any way. Those checking the archives can judge for themselves as to the credibility, etc. of anyone. It's not the responsibility of the moderators to attempt to protect posters from the pereceptions caused by their own
posts.

Steve
05-21-2004, 08:23 AM
hello,

>It's not the responsibility of the moderators to attempt to protect posters from the pereceptions caused by their own posts.

But the posts are being sanitized by the moderation. The archive reader cannot judge if the poster was out of line or not.

Don
05-21-2004, 09:14 AM
Hi, Steve.

There is an entire area of the internet known as the "usenet" where there are over 40,000 newsgroups. Many of them are like bulletin boards. And many of those that have not been overwhelmed with porn and spam have devolved into nothing but insult fests that prove nothing and simply waste bandwidth.

We don't want that here. That's why this forum is moderated.

Moderation does not disallow disagreement or self-defense. In fact, I personally would encourage it. By all means tell people that you disagree with what they are saying and give your reasons. If someone has disagreed with you, feel free to respond by sharing the reasons you feel they are wrong and you are right.

But we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Insulting people, calling them idiots, saying they are harmful, etc., is something that I don't feel this forum should tolerate. A personal attack is not saying "I disagree with you because..." Rather, a personal attack is "You're ignorant."

There are several newsgroups on the usenet that focus on hypnosis and are filled with spam, porn, and insults. There are hundreds of websites that are focused on hypnosis. Some of them have forums.

If people want to get to hypnosis groups and into personal insults or try to slip in advertising for the latest scheme, they are welcome to go to those other sites.

As long as I am a moderator, I will do my best to eliminate spam, porn, personal attacks, etc. Nobody has to post here. Nobody is forcing anyone to come here and insult other people.

If you are worried that your post might be a personal attack that could be edited, reword it. Or keep a copy and if it is edited by a moderator send the original to the list owner explaining why it was not spam, porn, or a personal attack (of course, you couldn't know this unless the reason is listed, so a reason has to be given). If the owner agrees, the deletions can easily be reinstated.

We are not trying to "protect posters from the pereceptions caused by their own posts." Rather, we are trying to keep the communication open and based on information and opinion rather than advertising or insult.

For those who feel a need to insult others, I would respectfully point out that you have two options: A--post here and have your post edited, or B--don't post here.

For all those who wish to post ideas, concepts, disagreements, etc., and who can do that without insulting or attacking others (although you may certainly logically and reasonably disagree with the statements of others), welcome to this forum!

j0hnny#
05-21-2004, 11:46 AM
IMO in a liberated forum pretty much the only thign a moderator would be concerned with is with posts that are of no relevance to the forum - so spam etc. What is the point in having a forum in which people cannot give their opinion with regard to anyhting another person might say/have said? Of course if a thread is just falling into a complete and blatant slagging match then some moderation might be required - but for some kidn of reconcilliation surely.. seems to me that deleting posts puts constraint the wrong way. Maybe the forum needs some guidelines and the request that participants observe them (perhaps based on mutual respect) then ban people who continually fail to act in accordance with them after warnings.


Leave up the slanderous reply's - if you can't take them - don't give them out - and if you don't like reading them, don't read them.

Failure of responsibility is pathetic. IMO

A person is never made to feel bad except where he gives another that pleasure...

baby nation sux

when a person calls another person ignorant IT is just opinion - live with it, stand up to it, no big deal.....

Don
05-21-2004, 01:49 PM
Hi, jOhnny.

I certainly understand your opinion and I enjoy participating in forums like that, too. However, I imagine you'll agree that quite often forums that allow personal insults devolve into nothing but insults.

If you disagree with someone, by all means say so. Also say why you disagree. As on the old SNL skit, simply calling someone an "ignorant slut" adds nothing to the discourse.

Respectfully, I disagree with your concept that personal attack results in a "liberated forum." I would contend that the anger and personal insults actually take topics away from the points of the forum. If anything, they end up "unliberating" such forums.

Again, I encourage everyone to state their ideas and opinions forcefully. If someone disagrees with you, use facts and logic to strongly defend your ideas and opinions. I realize that for some people, not insulting others is quite difficult. Luckily, all of the people who post here (with the exception of one who no longer posts here) do not have that difficulty. Everyone here can state their opinions and back them up with facts.

I agree with you that "baby nation sux." But "baby nation," IMO, not only means castration of thought, it also means name-calling. "You're a poo-poo head!" is a standard part of "baby nation."

Please not, jOhnny, I have strongly disagreed with you here. You strongly disagreed with me above. Perhaps we will not ever agree. But not once in your post or in mine have either of us insulted each other. That, IMO, makes for an adult nation. I hope we can avoide the baby nation, too!

skip
05-23-2004, 10:48 AM
This has been an interesting discussion, and I appreciate Steve for bringing it up.

I agree with those that might prefer a bit more of the Hyde Park flavoring, there are things in this field I feel passionate about, and will freely express it. I dont believe that moderating will in anyway restrict this. I also hopefully have the maturity and discipline to make my points without demeaning myself by demonstrating to everyone my own irresponsibility.

AND I agree with Steve, in that we ARE sanitizing peoples posts, more to their benifit IMO. I have thru the years, seen a lot of people who can talk a good game, and yet there life is in shambles, or at the sleightest provocation, they demonstrate pretty incredible behavior. Behavior that is convincing enough to make people conclude that they certainly wouldnt want this person mucking around in their heads. If we remove the evidence of the incredible behavior, without explaining why, I think we do a disservice to the readers. I think we have a responsibility, because of the nature of the topic, to demonstrate to the readers that we wont tolerate certain beahvior, without doing a public relations job for the offender.

But that's all been hashed out before.


Steve's concern is what it looks like to casual readers to come here and find > edited personal attack<. His concern is what does this tell the perspective poster?

Some say it makes them feel more comfortable.

I imagine it makes little difference to most, they are framiliar with groups, and immediately they recognize that they will not be spammed on this group, will not be subjected to incessant flaming posts, etc. It is the content of the "meat posts" that matters here, not the material that does get edited. If we continue to post "real information" here this forum will continue to be great. Moderating has nothing to do with this.

I imagine that people who intended to come, and disrupt, might be put off, and that would be a good thing, IMO.

This leaves us with the concern for the offender, who must "forever" live with the stigma of >personal attack deleted<, in their post, in the archives. I have written posts, in the past, that would have been edited under the current system, and may in the future. And instead of >personal attack deleted< appearing I must "live forever" with people going to archives, and seeing what I actually said. There is something to the adage of letting people think you are a fool, by not opening your mouth, than to prove it by speaking. They are my words, it is my responsibility, so be it.

There are a couple of points I would like to make, that havent been mentioned.

We need to also consider:

1. Matt, either knowingly or not, set the tone for what he wanted on the list by the way he chose to moderate, when he was doing it. While I dont always do it the way he might, I am ever mindful of what he chose to allow, and what he didnt.

2. There are a lot of people, who write to me, expressing their delight that there is a fairly strict intolerance for personal invective. There are a lot of people who say they dont post because of, "this verbose judgemental person" or "that one". Whether they will be more forthcomming in this "kinder, nicer" atmosphere remains to be seen. One person, who has been edited, was lauding a list she was on, where people didnt insult, and slander, where everyone got along wonderfully. Perhaps we have come a small step towards that Valhalla ourselves. The point of view, of those who did want a place more conducive to "encouraging constructive dialogue", should also be taken into account.

thanks Steve,

skip

Unregistered
05-24-2004, 08:53 AM
Hi, jOhnny.

I certainly understand your opinion and I enjoy participating in forums like that, too. However, I imagine you'll agree that quite often forums that allow personal insults devolve into nothing but insults.

If you disagree with someone, by all means say so. Also say why you disagree. As on the old SNL skit, simply calling someone an "ignorant slut" adds nothing to the discourse.

Respectfully, I disagree with your concept that personal attack results in a "liberated forum." I would contend that the anger and personal insults actually take topics away from the points of the forum. If anything, they end up "unliberating" such forums.

Again, I encourage everyone to state their ideas and opinions forcefully. If someone disagrees with you, use facts and logic to strongly defend your ideas and opinions. I realize that for some people, not insulting others is quite difficult. Luckily, all of the people who post here (with the exception of one who no longer posts here) do not have that difficulty. Everyone here can state their opinions and back them up with facts.

I agree with you that "baby nation sux." But "baby nation," IMO, not only means castration of thought, it also means name-calling. "You're a poo-poo head!" is a standard part of "baby nation."

Please not, jOhnny, I have strongly disagreed with you here. You strongly disagreed with me above. Perhaps we will not ever agree. But not once in your post or in mine have either of us insulted each other. That, IMO, makes for an adult nation. I hope we can avoide the baby nation, too!


Ok thanks Don - some fair points. I guess what I'm saying is that a few flames here and there are not really that much of a big deal - I think a sense of humour is a good thing. I think there can come a point when a full on slaggin match might devolve into non-relevant spam. If its spamming the thread then fair enough delete it. If its an insult that someone is expressly upset about then again - fair enough caution and delete if reconciliation is out of the question. What I do think is unreasonabe (after seeing the effects elsewhere) is editing poeple's posts because you think they might cause offence - or because the moderator is offended by the content. I remember someone posting (at another forum) calling another person a pussy for not giving an answer with any courage or integrity - where thought necessary by the 'flamer'. It caused a whole lot of trouble in the forum and a whole lot of unecessary hatred evolved to the point where the person who said it was banned. Was it really that bad? Did it add nothing? The fact that the meaning of the post was stolen in editing certainly meant it lost something.. i.e. that the person under criticism (the 'pussy') was not accused of what the poster perceived to be worthy of criticism, namely his lack of integrity.

Like wise with 'ignorant slut', not sure it added nothing - would depend on the context perhaps.

In the 'pussy' case it was a challenge to the courage and integrity of the 'flamed' individual. Perhaps something similar was going on here - dunno?.

Anyway, I gues it is too much to expect people who have viewed posts containing personal attacks to feel confident in joining in discussions if they fear their opinions may be slated. I guess if I was to have some input taken on board it would be that moderators pay discretion to the context of the 'slander' - and give the persons involved every opportunity to resolve their differences amicably - its fair enough to keep things on track sometimes.

It has occured to me that sometimes posts that do not contain explicit insults can be be insulting... rarely is anything done about these. So I am, at the moment, inclined to thinking that deleting explicit 'flames' with the 'language of personal attack', which seems to be reduced to defamatory remarks - is more a matter of consumer confidence than protecting the victim - which would be fair enough - or a reasonable reason for deleting/editing them - i guess.

P.S.
I don't remember ever owning a concept that says 'personal attack results in a liberated forum' - though I can see how you might draw it from my last post. However, I do believe in putting responsibility in the hands of individual posters. If a person cannot be compelled to give any of his own perspective to that of another there is little point in him/her coming to a discussion forum. IF the forum had guidelines, that would give moderators sufficient justification to warn people posting to consider their remarks and where appropriate to offer some kind of justification for it. So I retract some of my previous statements, some of which were perhaps a little reactionary (on second thought). Still - moderating can be understood to mean a going between, a mediating (of opinion) - a moderator mediates posts on this understanding - this gives the moderator a more dynamic, diplomatic role, enforcing where necessary, though without taking the position of prejudger and dictator (although this may be a little strong - so it = for want of a better word I hope you understand i.e. dictator). Of course it is possible to think of the role as one of moderating posts themselves - still this fails to recognise, in my opinion, that you are dealing with persons - as a moderator -do you think how will others react to this post or how will they react to this person. In both cases (if it is a case of involvement between individual posters in the thread) you will have to assume that you know what is best for them (though more so in the latter case), albeit for consumer confidence on the whole (encouraging others to join the conversations) you may well do.

Don
05-24-2004, 09:44 AM
Hi, jOhnny.

First, I apologize if I misrepresented in any way what you posted. Thank you for clearing it up.

<rant>
IMO, one of the great problems today is the refusal by so many people to accept personal responsibility for their actions and understanding that actions have responses. Most recently the U.S. Secretary of Defense said that he was responsible for torture--and then seems to act in a way that indicates his mere admission was an act of contrition and that no further response to his self-declared responsibility was necessary. Charles Manson is in prison for life for having his subordinates kill a few people. He claims he never ordered it. The U.S. Secretary of Defense admits that he is responsible for the torture and deaths of many times the number of people the Manson "family" killed. He remans free and a highly paid member of the U.S. government.

I don't want this to turn into a pro-Bush/anti-Bush discussion. I am just using two very well-known cases concerning ultimate responsibility and the result of responsibility. So if people want to debate that issue, I think it is an appropriate topic as hypnotherapists can help people accept responsibility for their actions.
</rant>

Finally, if people make personal attacks AND the reason for those attacks, it is possible to delete the attack WITHOUT deleting the reasons and intent. In several instances moderators, including myself, have done exactly this.

In the long run, personal attacks accomplish nothing. Given opinions and supporting those opinions with facts and information do far more than calling someone "ignorant," for example, and not saying why.

Some people who are potential posters in various forums are very hesitant to do so because they know that as soon as they post, people will pop up insulting them or denouncing them. I'm not saying that people shouldn't disagree. What I am saying is that I believe that if people begin by saying, "I disagree with you because...." instead of "You ignorant a****le! Don't you know...." they will encourage people to join conversations.

Steve
05-24-2004, 03:05 PM
hello Skip,

I will continue to disagree with the method. I do prefer a person's own words to show them a fool, you, me or anyone else.

nuf said for now,

skip
05-24-2004, 05:40 PM
Steve,

Ive got no quarrel with that. On this list, it isnt what I was asked, and agreed, to do.

the best to you and yours,

skip