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JonT
12-02-2005, 09:06 AM
Hello there again,

I’ve been looking through the archives for the use of logical fallacies as a technique for deliberately creating beliefs. Apart from a few heated debates, there doesn’t seem to have been much discussion. The person in question doesn’t seem to post here any more, but they’re something I’m particularly interested in, however, because unpicking the mental messes my friends get themselves into yields quite a few. I started studying them seriously about a year ago, and I must admit to being a bit of a geek about collecting new ones and using them deliberately.

For instance, A came to me to say how much she disliked a mutual friend, B. She was sad because they’d been such good friends. We explored what A felt, and it seemed that she had decided she disliked B based on what’s called the Negativity Effect. That is to say, she was attributing B’s adverse actions towards her due to B being a nasty person, with perfectly good evidence for arriving at that conclusion. The flipside is the Positivity Effect, whereby people attribute adverse actions of others to their circumstances rather than their character. I decided to put the evidence A had used to arrive at the conclusion about B’s character through the Positivity effect and play it back to her. Surprisingly, A saw this new conclusion as being perfectly reasonable too and adopted it without question. That led her to trying to get closer to B again and they’re once more the best of friends.

I’ve collected and documented several dozen fallacies in some depth, so much so that their use in several ad campaigns is becoming quite apparent. For instance, over here, the National Lottery uses the slogan “Think Lucky”. If that’s all it took to win the jackpot, well, you can imagine the outcry! This, as far as I can see, is an example of the Illusion of Control. People do strange “lucky” things, like buying certain things when they buy their lottery tickets, crossing their fingers, or tying their shoes in a certain way to ensure success. There’s even some research into the psychology of people at the craps table: they shake longer if they need higher numbers – which is nonsensical given that they then throw the dice about ten feet! In my own observations during games of Monopoly, the tendency is to shake harder to get past squares containing hotels, even though the dice produce random numbers regardless of how much you shake. But here’s the thing: if you say something like “shake harder because you need to pass go”, people tend to find this entirely reasonable and do so without question.

I’ve been experimenting further, and it seems that people are more prone to accepting the conclusion of a fallacy if it has a pleasing outcome, whatever “pleasing” means to them. For instance, “we could leave the pub after this one, but it’s still raining outside, so if I get another round in, we’ll really be sheltering from the rain on the way home.” This is an example of a fallacy known as an appeal. Another good one you see in advertising runs something like, “ten thousand women can’t be wrong.” Oh yes they can! This is an example of the appeal to popularity.

The list seems endless. Put a pretty girl next to her less attractive friend and the contrast effect makes her look prettier. “All people from country X are lazy. Y is from country X. I hate him because he’s a lazy X.” Clearly, this is nonsense (it's an example of the the existential fallacy). Everyone’s an individual, but you try telling a racist!

Being a writer with an interest in conversational techniques, and looking for an interesting book project to get me partly out of magazine writing, I’m just wondering; has this sort of thing been done? Amazon only lists “Nonsense - A Handbook of Logical Fallacies” by Robert Gula, and nothing on using them deliberately to create specific beliefs and to produce actions.

Sorry. I’m rambling again. I really must cut down on the coffee.

JonT
12-02-2005, 09:50 AM
Sorry, that first paragraph doesn't scan very well. I mean I'm interested in fallacies. Oh, for an edit button! (or less coffee) :(

Poodle
12-02-2005, 11:28 AM
Yes, people are strange for sure. Many times language has a lot to do with it. Very simplistic: You are in a line to make photocopies. You ask if you can cut in to the front and the answer is NO, however, if you state the same thing except add because I have photocopies to make -- the mind immediately shifts -- to oh, that's a good reason so you get to cut in. Go figure!! Beyond my understanding but it works every time!

skip
12-03-2005, 07:01 AM
Read:

"Influence" 'The psychology of persuasion' Cialdini This is the difinitive work!

"Age of Propaganda",'The everyday use and abuse of persuasion', Pratkanis and Aronson

skip

JonT
12-04-2005, 07:42 AM
Read:

"Influence" 'The psychology of persuasion' Cialdini This is the difinitive work!

"Age of Propaganda",'The everyday use and abuse of persuasion', Pratkanis and Aronson

skip
Many thanks Skip!

I'll have a look at those. I'm looking for Xmas presents for me at the moment! Perhaps because I've walked a different path towards what I call active psychology I'm bound to keep finding that there's ever more to discover. For instance, I managed to successfully use a suppressed correlative to prevent a fight last night between two friends who were a bit the worse for wear. It works by embracing one option with the other, thereby leading to the same result (in this case that the fight had no chance of being won. The only way to do that was to be the first to realise how silly the situation was in the first place. Phew!). I was wondering this morning; is a suppressed corelative possibly the reason why the double bind works in NLP?

I usually run this fallacy (I find it useful to see fallacy work as running naturally occuring mental subroutines) to guide people into a result that is actually different to where they thought they were going. I also use it like a double bind in card tricks, so that all the possible explanations still lead back to it having a "magic" cause. :)

Anyway, thanks for the references. Much appreciated.

JonT
12-04-2005, 08:09 AM
Yes, people are strange for sure. Many times language has a lot to do with it. Very simplistic: You are in a line to make photocopies. You ask if you can cut in to the front and the answer is NO, however, if you state the same thing except add because I have photocopies to make -- the mind immediately shifts -- to oh, that's a good reason so you get to cut in. Go figure!! Beyond my understanding but it works every time!
Hey, that's interesting! I wonder if it could be an example of the pseudo-certainty effect? Based on our current situation, this sneaky but useful little piece of programming tends to have us accept something if we think the outcome of saying YES will be good, and go for a more risky strategy (like saying NO) if we think it will be bad. The key is making the outcome you want him to choose positive. If this is what I'm seeing, then if you give the person you want to push in front of a reason for standing in line longer, like wanting to be with you, they should naturally be more likely to accept you cutting in. You might even get them to do the photocopying for you and swing by their desk for another chance to be with you later. :rolleyes:

skip
12-04-2005, 11:21 AM
Suppressed correlative?

I am unframiliar with the term.

Where have you learned what you have on this so far?

skip

JonT
12-05-2005, 04:22 AM
Suppressed correlative?

I am unframiliar with the term.

Where have you learned what you have on this so far?

skip
Hi again Skip,

There's a nice, gentle overview of correlative fallacies here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlative_based_fallacies), and a specific page on suppressed correlatives here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_correlative).

I've assembled what I have so far from online resources. I know that's frowned upon by some as less than authoratitive, but there's no real reason to fake a fallacy, and the sources all correlate, so I think it's good info. There are a few nice online fallacy dictionaries too to pour over (I've added a few references below), and good old Google for winkling out more obscure stuff. The biggest problme is that some of them have strange names that don't exactly lend themselves to being easily remembered. Philosophers, it seems, aren't bothered about simplicity!

I think fallacies are fascinating because they seem to occur in all of us, as if they'e meant to be there. Looking at different cultures, they seem to crop equally, as if it's a human thing rather than them belonging to specific groups.

I quickly realised I'd never be able to remember them all, so I began documenting what I'd found in a manual format as a sort of background task. I've got nearly four dozen now, and I'm trying to sort them into different groups and to add examples of their use, because this gives me ideas about how they might be deliberately used.

The Fallacy Files (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/)
Wikipedia's Fallacy page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy)
Adam Smith Institute (http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/)