is NLP manipulation?

[newbie]

i have just begun studying NLP (though i did have some limited exposure to it in the past), and i found something my instructor said the other day very interesting.

i asked him if NLP is manipulation--because in my opinion the two seem very similar--and he said something to the effect that manipulation is okay if it's for a good purpose.

that statement actually matches what i've thought for years (i call it "benign manipulation"), but a lot of other people seem to feel that manipulation is "bad" by definition.

would you folks in this forum be so kind as to share your thoughts/views on these two questions?

1) is NLP manipulation?
2) is manipulation always "bad"?

[Miss Piggy]

1 yes
2 no

[Charlie]

Miss Piggy expresses it perfectly.

And remember 'ecology checks' in NLP.

You might also want to sometime check out a book called "Influencing with Integrity" by Genie Laborde.

Be good.

Charlie

[Phoenix]

I have manipulated people all my life but never for bad things always to make things better for them/us. I am 18 years old and have now been certified as a master practitioner of NLP and finally i have released that everything i have been doing all my life is actually.....working and now i can get paid for it. Remembering that words mean different things to different people ; to me the word manipulation brings up the idea of FORCE and i am not forcing anything on clients i am simply allowing them an alternative option one which they may find...better.

Jamie

[Merlin]

Of course NLP is 'manipulation', else why do it?
Clients come to me and pay money wanting manipulation.

If you don't want manipulation, find a psycho, make lots of appointments and spend the next 30 years talking about your problem.

[Terry (existing)]

It always amazes me that people choose to misunderstand, or partly understand words. You have a pain, and you doctor sends you to a physiotherapist for "Manipulation", is that bad? You come to me for help with a problem originating in your mind, and I manipulate your thinking to eradicate the problem. Is that bad? Fact is, manipulation can be both good and bad, but human nature tends to accept the bad connotation instead of a balanced understanding. Don;t allow yourself to fall into that trap, and become "normal" (EG)......

[Pdrive]

This definition says alot... I particularly like the mesmeric reference :D

http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/manipulation

[JonT]

Hello there Newbie,

If we work on the principle that all communication changes the receiver, then I can't see how we can help but subtly manipulate everyone we come into contact with throughout our lives, whether we do it on purpose or not. And I think Merlin's right on the money.

Your questions trigger in me an interesting question too: is it okay to set out to manipulate people in general, rather than when they've explicitly asked you to help? My personal answer is that I think it is. My experience is that people only do what they want to anyway, so manipulation (without threats, that is!) is just giving them the reason to do so and someone to "blame", whether they're aware of that reasoning or not. Sometimes, it's perfect to give them that reasoning to gain their acceptance! I suppose that however you do it, it's really just talking someone into something they don't find fundamentally disagreeable. NLP is just one of a plethora of ways to present that process. (See my sig for further details :D )

[Neurotic1]

All therapy could be described as being manipulation of someone in some way. So is all contact between people. We are manipulated by the environment within which we find ourselves. Manipulation is a word which is often associated with negative behaviour. IMO manipulation can be good or bad. My belief system regards good manipulation as manipulating someone in a way which they want to be manipulated or at least doing no harm. Bad manipulation is manipulating someone in a way which is detrimental to them or of no benefit to them them but solely benefits the person doing the manipulating. This is my belief and I am there are many other equally valid opinions.

[Rachel G]

Hello, I am a new poster and would like to respectfully butt in and say a few words on this thread because it's something I wonder a lot about myself.

My gut reaction is I've always had a negative feeling about the word manipulation. If we are talking about influencing someone for their positive growth or development, why would you want to use a word that has negative connotations for so many people? Manipulation, for me, denotes underhandedness and sneakiness for a selfish aim.

Maybe it's because I have known several very manipulative people who, I believe, were not themselves conscious of what they were doing. And I believe this is the case with a certain type of person who has a hidden agenda and yet manage to twist it around in their own minds that they are doing it for the good of the other person. Really, haven't we all seen this!!

If you go to an NLP practitioner and both of you know why you are there, you have given your consent. This would be really stretching the meaning of the word as it is commonly used.

But if you are using a technique that you've learned from studying NLP on a person without their knowledge or consent, in order to achieve your own aims, whether that is beneficial to them, or to you, or to both... then it seems to me that you need to be very clear exactly what you are doing and why. Only then can you answer to any claim of manipulation.

I can see some situations where you'd want to use whatever techniques you can to help someone and it would be impossible to let them know or would make the technique useless and ineffective. For example, to get a loved one off drugs or to relieve their pain or just to help them live better. I would not call this manipulation. Maybe I'm just biased against that word.

On the other hand, if you could use a technique to get them to give you money or let you have your way with them, then this is deliberate manipulation and is not ethical.

This would be true of just about any influential technique. Like grabbing a person by the arm to get them out of the way of a bus, vs. grabbing them
to steal their coat or slap them around or whatever. It's not just the action, it's the intention and the results. They all count.

Sorry for running on like this!

[Terry (existing)]

The reason for a dictionary, is for us all to have the same understanding of a word, so that we can communicate readily. 'Manipulate" has a meaning, and no doubt it will remain as is for the rest of us, being used for both its negative and positive. If you wish to be out of step, it is no concern of ours, but may become a problem for you.....

[Rachel G]

I may have a preconceived idea about the word, but if other people share it, is it not OK to address it? Do you really think I'm out of step and that it may become a problem to me? What kind of problem?

Since you mentioned a dictionary...

"manipulation:
1. a handling or being handled; especially, skillful handling or operation.
2. artful management or control, as by shrewd use of influence, especially in an unfair or fraudulent way.
3. change or falsification (of figures, prices, etc.) for one's own purposes or profit."

(Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary... It may be out of step with modern definitions as it is about 20 years old.)

[Mentalius]

Manipulation is a word having its roots in latin.
If we were to search for the same phenomenon in old greek, the word would be chiropractice.

Now, a chiropractor has never had any trouble charging for manipulating their clients, and their clients is fully aware that they are being manipulated.

[Terry (existing)]

I may have a preconceived idea about the word, but if other people share it, is it not OK to address it? Do you really think I'm out of step and that it may become a problem to me? What kind of problem?

Since you mentioned a dictionary...

"manipulation:
1. a handling or being handled; especially, skillful handling or operation.
2. artful management or control, as by shrewd use of influence, especially in an unfair or fraudulent way.
3. change or falsification (of figures, prices, etc.) for one's own purposes or profit."

(Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary... It may be out of step with modern definitions as it is about 20 years old.) Of course it is OK to address it, you did that. The rest of us accept the full meaning of manipulation, and use it accordingly. If you don;t wish to accept it that is fine by the rest of us, but we have no intention of changing to suit your concepts, so you lose out not us. Or do you think we should all change so that you can be more comfortable?

[skip]

Rachel,

Yes NLP is manipulation.

So is a really good movie.

I agree that manipulation does have a poor connotation.

But just because the word has a poor connotation, doesnt mean that NLP must of necessity be bad.

A great seduction is manipulative, but oh sooo sweet.

skip

[betlamed]

Hi JonT,


If we work on the principle that all communication changes the receiver, then I can't see how we can help but subtly manipulate everyone we come into contact with throughout our lives, whether we do it on purpose or not.


I furthermore think that all communication also changes the sender. I think this is an aspect that is often overlooked in NLP discussions. You cannot manipulate without manipulating yourself and getting manipulated by the other person(s). (You are yourself hearing what you say, after all...)

bl

[Rachel G]

Or do you think we should all change so that you can be more comfortable?

Not at all. I was giving my input. It seemed someone was asking for opinions, wanted feedback, and I thought it was clear that's what I was doing. I'm just suggesting that if you use the word "manipulation", thinking it is a neutral word with no negative implications, and then stick "good" or "bad" onto it to make it more clear, and then you get a response from someone that isn't 100% accepting of the word as you intend it, maybe it's helpful to know why. That's all. This is not a big issue for me at all. I'm sorry I gave that impression.

Here's a question: do you think that if the guys originally named it "neurolinguistic manipulation" it would have had the same result?

Now this is an entirely personal opinion, but "programming" is a more neutral word because it is mechanical and nonemotional, therefore if you put "bad" or "good" people will know what you're saying.

Spinal manipulation is a physical thing, and people know it's different than mental manipulation because they're going by experience.

I'm just discussing the common meaning of these words, it's not a personal thing. Hope I'm being more in line with the discussion now.

Regards,
Rachel

[Terry (existing)]

Rachel, I have pointed out that the word has both meanings, and still you argue that we are all wrong, or so it seems to me. Yes the effect would still be the same if we had called it Linguistic manipulation, the name would not affect the results. The only difference is, you would not have understood, but the rest of us would. That is why I suggest that you are the only one to suffer if you choose to have a different view of a word to the view of others. Actually, we could all be wrong and you right, and still you would be the one to lose out. As for manipulation applying to physical therapy, but not to mental therapy, I wonder why you have that perception? The word is still the same, as is the meaning....

[Mentalius]

Now newbie, have you found manipulations, that were usefull to you :cool:

[Rachel G]

Terry (existing), it's just that I (personally) believe that the word manipulation isn't the best choice to describe NLP or therapy, but I'm not real serious about it and could easily change my mind. I agree with you that there are multiple meanings of the word. But if there is confusion over a word, wouldn't it be easier to use a different word rather than explain yourself? That's the gist of my argument, if there is indeed an argument.

You seem to say I'm an outsider, well, don't your clients come from outside of this community, and might they not share my views? And isn't it just as important for you to understand their meaning as it is for them to understand yours?

I have read up on NLP and think it is a fascinating subject or dscipline, but of course I'm a newbie and shouldn't be mouthing off like this. I will shut up now. Thanks for listening.

Rachel

[Rachel G]

Now newbie, have you found manipulations, that were usefull to you :cool:

No, unfortunately. Maybe that's my problem.

[Terry (existing)]

It would seem we are being reduced to arguing semantics, and that is foolish. I did NOT suggest at any time you were an outsider, I did suggest you were out of step with those of us who throughly understood the meaning of manipulation and used it correctly. If however you have a better word, feel free, my English can cope with alternatives quite happily..... As for clients, I have found it nescessary to adapt to the client without trouble, since I have worked with the well educated and the less educated as well as persons who's native language differed from mine, and had no trouble being understood by any of them...

[Neurotic1]

Terry I agree yet I must acknowledge that it the word 'manipulation' has fallen foul of that wonderful ability to be taken in mainly one context by most people. To most English speaking people, to refer to someone as 'being manipulative' has a negative connotation - do you not agree? Okay so a negative interpretation may not be a correct assumption and as far as therapists go, it would usually not - however language is open to misinterpretation as you well know. Is this semantics?

[Poodle]

My clients usually say what is it as it is relatively new where I live and I think I am the only one that uses it. I simply say it is exactly what it says -- neuro for brain, linguistic for tongue and programming is programming. That settles everyone down really fast. A lot of the time I use it in hypnosis (anchors) and no one has ever questioned me about that procedure at all. Need we explain ourselves further??? We should be a little mysterious, don't cha think? I certainly have never even thought of the word "manipulation" in context with NLP. Manipulation in therapy could be thought of as threatening or dangerous which NLP certainly isn't. Actually, I would say if pushed that NLP is a TECHNOLOGY that acknowledges and values the incredible variety and differences that make up human expression, while providing a way to simply and efficiently understand, organize and utilize that variety to help us tap into our true potential. I don't think anyone could argue with that. Pood