Presuppositions: Utility over Accuracy

[Simple Guy]

There are those presuppositions, though useful to hypnotherapists (and
folks, in general), that aren't necessarily grounded in truth. Anyone care
to speak of personally held presuppositions chosen for benefit, that
might or might not be true?

[Merlin]

We could write a book on that one simple, or maybe a dozen or two.

[Annie]

Simple, you said : " There are those presuppositions, though useful to hypnotherapists (and folks, in general), that aren't necessarily grounded in truth. Anyone care to speak of personally held presuppositions chosen for benefit, that might or might not be true ? "

Allow me to address this with 3 more questions :
1. By what Perceptual means/ability is it being decided what is " true, or not true " ? iow, what if something you decide being " only a pre-supposition " is, in fact, a reality :) to another person using abilities you aren't currently practicing ?

2. Having used the words " truth & true " , would you consider it helpful replacing them with words like " positively beneficial realities " ?

3. How many volumes, just on the subject of " useful personal presuppositions, most people would love to make their realities if only they were cognizant of them in the 1st. place ", do you want ? :D


Annie

[Simple Guy]

Merlin,

Many books, yes. The thread was open ended, with the intent that anyone can pick up on it, if
they like, and take it anywhere.

Annie,

"1. By what Perceptual means/ability is it being decided what is " true, or not true " ? iow, what if something you decide being " only a pre-supposition " is, in fact, a reality :) to another person using abilities you aren't currently practicing ?"
NLP provides a nice framework for exploring the "Perceptual" aspects.

"2. Having used the words " truth & true " , would you consider it helpful replacing them with words like " positively beneficial realities " ?"
Not really, because outcomes of what are taken to be truths can be positive or negative.

"3. How many volumes, just on the subject of " useful personal presuppositions, most people would love to make their realities if only they were cognizant of them in the 1st. place ", do you want ? :D"
As many as would be beneficial.

[Annie]

Hi Simple,

Thank you for the opportunity to continue in my Learnings, including who to join in conversation with here, as well as who not.

I would like thiis part of my sharing to remain, for those having found if pleasantly valueable already, as well as for others so in the future :

1. a mother's unconscious mind communicates with, and imprints, her as of yet, unborn child(ren) at a time when this soul/mind has in the womb not yet developed (a brain, and senses : upon which NLP later relies for communication ), in what you may describe as Pre-sensory perception : a world/experience vastly richer than the narrow confines of usual human experience(s), or as many children growing are cheated into themselves becoming. In this, what you might call, *pre/extra-sensory* world (which as you allow yourself to once again Open to it : is ALL around, and in us) qualities such as unconditional acceptance and love are Natural; which is why babies and other such young children are so Excellent in examplifying it : still living Whole, they have not yet " walled - off, or fractionated into parts-parties, or multiple personalities, or closed-down altogether " as adults do in varying degrees.
OPEN : they choose experiencing, and expressing, their world as joyfull Fun, which is why/how they can learn so quickly, and easily :D

Remember, Simple, in days when you lived like that ?, and
how much of the time do you allow choosing experiencing your reality in such unfiltered Unity now ? :)

and
2. a guiding teacher can communicate with other beings.
That is part of the process I used in Healing, as well as helping other people Heal themselves *at our most Fundamental soul/core levels*, from pre-natal owies as well as post-natal Chronic conditions; and again, this being very similar to how we learn Best as well - and
from what I have read of what Merlin & EC have written here, they are familiar with this as well.
iow,
as I look upon a child, in a wheel-chair on full life-support for instance, none of that outwardly-noticable physical decrepid schtuff is the *true-essence of that soul*, is it ? And I seek to commune with the soul/essence of each person; the Real inner self invisible to physical eyes. Wanna venture a guess on what such children's repeated deepest yearnings are ? : * being unconditionally-accepted, and loved SAME as how they give it, as well as matching our experiences we left before coming here being clothed with mortality*. (and
isn't it ironic, that those folks having reported having a Near-death experience, will recount experiencing similarly : " feeling enveloped by unconditional-acceptance, and love - and sharing that with others " .

No small thing, Simple; it is the greatest experience we can share with each other, here or anywhere.

Now, you know how " doctors, & therapists are Professionals " : very practiced in keeping themselves " safely/objectively distanced " from the Real person referenced above. (and
Yes, while there's certainly validity in Not getting ourselves stuck inside another person's "sad story", what of the person's Spiritual essence, plus Mind ?

Hey - if, in fact, merely having a sufferer sit in someone's Office, all nice/relaxed while being read/told " metaphorical Fairy tales ", is all that is necessary - for people * Self-healing their cancers *, for instance; why isn't that approach succeeding for NLP'ers ? plus the Medical community ?

Instead of continuing maintaining " walls, via safely/objectively being distanced " , could it be that * modeling a Spiritual/Mind - connection * holds greater promise and potential, in helping people win themselves back Unified and Well.

Children are very keen in picking up on that, for at younger ages, they communicate from their soul/core as well, much more easily. And
as parents, we have the opportunity to raise our children so much of their abilities here can be empowered remaining *intact*. I don't know if you got that from the post I shared with the man here this week, asking for the sake of his 2 children.

Do you understand my 1st. question better now, Simple ?

Enjoy yourself thoroughly, however it suits you Best :D


Annie

[Simple Guy]

Annie,

"The map is not the territory," doesn't equal, "unlimited and unending Territory," as you put it. I wouldn't quarrel, though, with the theoretical possibility that the territory may, in fact, be infinite. I don't find that NLPers ignore the territory, though NLP's more technical approach ("left brained") does help avoid some of the bumps and mud (territory content) of classical hypnotherapy. I don't, however, observe here the extreme dichotomy that you have spoken of. By the way, I've heard the onion metaphor used by
both NLP and hypnosis instructors. In all fairness to both, it is the client, not the therapist that decides what issues he/she wants addressed. Sometimes these are core issues and sometimes not.

[Annie]

and as well, this simple analogy - may it remain :

Yet, the point I was making before is the *kind* of Connection, beyond what NLP'ers call rapport. That's a major difference; which I communicated mentioning :
Real-self = the soul & each cell's intelligence
Underwear = the brain & neurology, manipulated/inluenced via NLP
Costume = Conscious behavior and willfull physiology

All nay-sayers aside, there are folks who beautifully help other people Self-heal from all sorts of Emotional/Physical - owies, on the recognition that " the brain is but a small, tho major, part of a person's *mind " = including the rest of their body, also*. This being 1 tiny piece in how some of us have been, are, and will continue helping other people win their Life back.


Annie

[skip]

Simple,

Interesting question, and one that I spent many hours struggling with, especially given my criteria of useful over truth.

So if I may, I would like to divide my opinion up over several different contexts.

Personally, and privately, I can do anything. No ands, no ifs, no buts. I do not give a fig whether it is true or not. This is a belief I have deliberately chosen for myself, it is my first, congruent, unconscious response, whenever I think about something I want, or if asked if I can do something. I rely on a programed wisdom check, and ecology check, to determine if I really want to, AFTER, I have the congruent 'yes I can' response. And while the wisdom and ecology checks are going on, I am waiting patiently for my creativity to 'deliver' the methodology.

I like this because it prevents self imposed limitations. It allows me to operate under pressure, comfortably, without having a conscious clue as to how my unconscious is going to solve it, I just continue to steer myself in the desired direction, and enjoy observing my unconscious work.

When I am with client, I still use the same belief. It has allowed me to acomplish more with situations, that many still consider impossible. It does not always result in success, but it has allowed for more success, and taken me much further, than I would have gone with limiting beliefs, true or not.

But this is for my own personal, private, consumption, so to speak.

Publically, what I profess is a different matter. I used to publically profess that I could do anything, occasionally I still do. So doing, inevetably leads to invitations to come and jump off the Eiffel Tower. Something I congruently DO respond to internally with, "I can do it.", but something I am not interested in putting to the test yet, because, while I would fly beautifully, my landings are still a bit rough, and need work.

Now we have people, who, if asked, will proclaim they can do anything. And they demand that everyone believe this, both of them, and of themselves. They say they cure cancer, or can live forever, but when asked how many cancer patients they have cured, or how many lives they have extended past 100, or lame they have made whole, or halt they have given voice to, they mumble off into some drivel about some book someone wrote, or some cure someone else effected, while they themselves werent within 100 miles. They get invited to jump off the Eiffel Tower a lot, and they inexplicably cant find time to schedule the trip. What does something like this, do to their credibility? What does something like this do, to the credibility of hypnosis as a whole, when people who dont know hypnosis, hear these people spouting off?

So when I am speaking to other people, and representing to other people, I do not always voice what is my honest unconscious response, because how my message is recieved by that person, or that group, is what's important. It is MORE IMPORTANT than my personal beliefs about it. Because my beliefs are just my beliefs. AND if I want my words to have power in the minds of those people, I had better speak from a credible position. I had better establish that I know something, that might be of benifit, rather than to establish that I am a crack pot.

SO, if I make claims too far removed from their map, OR if I cannot back up what I represent I can do, with personal, verifiable, results, I single handedly destroy my ability to work with someone, and damage the likelyhood of anyone else to be able to work with them as well.

Now enough said, about personal beliefs, and their internal and external ramifications, with respect to truth.

When working with a client; I believe that you can do someone no greater honor than to enter into their model of the world, and to work from within that model, to effect what they want. AND you do nothing to violate that model, unless it is essential to effect the change they are asking for. Any thing else you do to "improve" their beliefs, to fit what you think is right, is invasive and highly unethical. Your beliefs are no better than theirs. Society has certain demands that must/should rightly be met, but beyond that, we have absolutely no right to decide what is truth for others.

And while I am on that topic. Because we are working to transform the meaning of reality, using language, it is incumbant on us to be masters of the language, and to know precisely the effect it is going to have. We are altering the way people relate to their world, their families, their friends, and we can not be sloppy. When I hear someone consistantly misspeak, or say, in effect, "I dont understand the ramifications of the language I use." I cringe. It is tantamount to a neural surgeon saying, "I keep forgetting where the cranial nerves are."

We as hypnotists are in the business of using language to transform meaning in other peoples lives. And we had better be, not just masters of the language, but keen observers of how what we say effects others. And we had better be very respectful of what impact our words have on others.


When we come to using metaphor, to effect theraputic benifit, the above point is crucial. While we know that the theraputic purpose of metaphor is the important point, and we know that truth can take a back seat to the theraputic process, we must also recognize, that most, if not all, of the theraputic value would be lost, if the client were to realize that the metaphor is untrue. So I would say, "Let usefulness be your guide, even as you realize that usefulness' definition includes the ultimate results of using that particular story, in that particular way." Your creativity has access to more than enough "true" stories, to accomplish what you need to, for you to find it necessary to resort to making them up.

The last thing I would say is, "You better know that you dont know." While this is true from an epistomological point of view, it is also true from a process point of view. Do not put limitations on what your client might acomplish. ALWAYS leave provision for the client to extend beyond the things you have taught them hypnotically. Most will surprise you in the most delightful ways, exceeding your expectations, regularly, if you make sure to realize, you dont know what they are capable of.

It is a very odd thing, the people who know, that they dont know, are the ones who sound like they do know. It's the people who think they do know, that end up sounding like they dont.

cheers

[Simple Guy]

Skip,

Your reply reflects the time and efforts that you indicate you've put towards
examining the issue. I'm sure that the rewards of your having done so
have made it personally worthwhile. I don't mind letting you know that your expressed
views on this, in past posts, have helped clarify my own thinking about this topic.

I'd like to note that even in the face of knowing that some presuppositions
aren't true, we sometimes ACT as if they were. This isn't to take isssue
with you on internal congruence. It's only to add that disbelief in the
truthfulness of a presupposition is, at times, subject to suspension, or appears to be
so, when emplyoying it for its usefulness. Conscious/unconscious congruence, as far
as the acceptance of a presupposition being true, isn't necessary, though it empowers the
presupposition when it is. In this regard, the delusionary person, or
the proverbial fool on the hill may, ironically, have a sometimes advantage,
in more empowered, though mostly wrong, states of belief. -- But, even
a dead clock, as someone once said, is right two times a day.

[skip]

Simple,

Agreed! And most importantly, as you point out, we DO act as if out beliefs are true irregardless of whether they are or not.

And that is the beauty of it.

Consider for a moment how profoundly that opens generative change work.

Change the belief, and for all practical purposes the world does change to suit it.

[Annie]

Hello,

Since " backing up what is being presented (as having occurred), with personal, verifiable, results " is already History,
the only issue, or
Invitation remaining is : getting others to Experiment likewise, so they can Realize the validity thereof, for themselves. And that is only the " Doubting Thomases' " challenge, not the people who have been, are now, and will continue to help people get the results, the people asking, want.

In the meantime, what was that about : " Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time, and frustrates the pig. "

The only way you will be convinced of " reality " as others have experienced such, is to EXPERIMENT with what is already understood by people having done it. And yes, all of that is cause for Celebration ! :)


Annie

[Simple Guy]

Skip,

Additionally, when clients do act as if their beliefs are true, processes of cognitive dissonance tend to occur furthering internal congruence. This is somewhat similar to the integration that takes place as a result of an effective NLP anchor collapse.