Derren Brown [Archive] - HypnosisForum.com and AmPac.edu Community Forums

Don

04-28-2004, 04:56 PM

I know, that. He says he does not use actors, how does he guess how many fingers someone is holding up 6 times in a row, he gives an explanation and thats what got me intrested in NLP/Hypnosis. I have tried some of his "tricks" and they worked, he taught me how to use rappor and mirroring people, and then influencing them with body language.

I could tell you how he does it, but then I'd have to kill you. :D

For over 20 years I have been a member of an exclusive private club for magicians in Hollywood called The Magic Castle. If magicians simply told everyone their secrets, they would not be able to entertain and amaze.

For hundreds of years, people have been doing mentalism to entertain others. If I shared with you his secrets, I'd be taking away his livelihood. He makes money because non-magicians such as yourself do not know how he does his stuff.

If you would like to learn about the power of using NLP as part of magic and mentalism, I would recommend going to the web site of Kenton Kneipper at http://www.wonderwizards.com/ and especially look for his work on products such as "wonder words" and "kentonism."

You could also go into various web sites that sell magical illusions and look for the books "Absolute Magic" and "Pure Effect." They're both written by Derren Brown.

Good luck!

solaris152000

04-29-2004, 07:57 AM

I own both books have indepth knowledge on magic and mentalism already. Though I am more intrested in the phycological tricks. Instead of just marked cards, and other "magic" tricks.

Hawkes

04-29-2004, 05:23 PM

I was wondering solaris152000, how effective is mirroring people in gaining rapport? I'm a beginner with NLP, and some of what i've read/been taught kind of conflicts. Some people say mirroring is great to increasing/gaining rapport, while others say it isn't that good.

It was Derren Brown and his shows that got me into NLP, i'm glad it did. But the one thing you have to remember about a lot of his tricks is that they don't show it all. Only a part to some of it, to hide what he does and/or to hide the times he doesn't get it right. That doesn't stop me from admiring the guys talent and brains, it can't be easy to come up with half of what he does.

Merlin

04-29-2004, 07:37 PM

Mirroring is great as a tool for building rapport, if you need to build more rapport.
But, what will you do with it when you have it?

solaris152000

04-30-2004, 10:51 AM

Mind Games, subliminal messages through body language, that sort of thing.

j0hnny#

04-30-2004, 01:54 PM

But the one thing you have to remember about a lot of his tricks is that they don't show it all. Only a part to some of it, to hide what he does and/or to hide the times he doesn't get it right. That doesn't stop me from admiring the guys talent and brains, it can't be easy to come up with half of what he does.Yeah, I saw DB on C4 last week (Trick of the Mind)... he did a trick where he got a london cabbie to take him to the london eye in his taxi... except the cabby couldn't figure out where it was despite it being one of london's biggest landmarks and despite passing by it several times. I remember Derren banging on the perspex between the cab driver and the passenger seats after having asked the guy some kind question that the driver had to go 'into himself' to try and answer -- then he banged the perspex..... the following scenes the cabby couldn't for the life of him find the london eye..... I've heard about trance induction through use of pattern interupt ..... person goes into his head to try and find an answer to a question asked and then is interupted just after he begins the process (or 'test' as an NLPer might say). When this happens (i.e. the interupt) the individuals mind goes blank and the inducer (interupter) has the opportunity to 'install' a suggestion, whether by embedded commands or directly.... Is this what is going on here ?(Derren also did a trick at the horse races that was similar... where he smacked his hand against the outside of a tellers window and then told (commanded) her his ticket was a winner, and she gave him the cash.....) - seems to be consistent with explanations of pattern interupts.....

seems to rely on people who are in habitual type jobs .... minimal conscious effort type jobs....(or something) ... but don't think we get to see the whole show....

Hawkes

04-30-2004, 05:40 PM

seems to rely on people who are in habitual type jobs .... minimal conscious effort type jobs....(or something) ... but don't think we get to see the whole show....From what a friend told me (she knows quite a bit about how Derren Brown does some of his work, kind of scary), your right about some of his tricks relying on people who are in habitual jobs. I still would like to know how the phone booth trick works though.

Annie

04-30-2004, 07:43 PM

Hi Johnny,

You said : " Derren also did a trick at the horse races that was similar... where he smacked his hand against the outside of a tellers window and then told (commanded) her his ticket was a winner, and she gave him the cash ..... "

Such examples are both a poor way to play a joke, and/or a despicable way of using " Pattern-interrupts ", ie for the purpose of him committing a Felony : depending on how much $$ the Winning ticket was for. Did he then " repent " and return what he stole, as he should have ?

If, in fact, Derren Brown has habituated himself to behave in such ways, someone should -
1. haul him into Court, and make him repay.
2. get him into some " therapy " .

This sounds very similar to how that " NLP speed-seduction " Character is choosing to live his life, 2. Whether the goal is cheating a woman for Instant Sexual gratification, or cheating someone like this for Instant Financial gratification - it's pretty much all the same.

Sigh, another reminder how " dysfunctional " people choose behaving .

Annie

j0hnny#

05-01-2004, 04:29 AM

lol:D , yes you are right... it is dispicable really..... though, like I say, we don't get to see the whole 'show'...... so maybe he pays it back.... (they would have to have had permission from the race track to film the show at any rate, so..... ) who knows... I think that this example is not really comparable with speed seduction as that is a very personal theft... almost like a rape (in this context at least)... This is more like stealing sweeties from the sweetie factory... would it really be in the same league??

One idea i had about the the phone booth example is that perhaps it works on the same principle... a pattern interupt followed by a series of commands??? Or maybe they are explained the situation and offered some cash to flop down.heh, heh.:D it is a show of 'tricks' after all... However, pattern interupt is the best explanation I can think of so far for that 'trick'....

Annie

05-01-2004, 06:12 PM

Hi Johnny -

With so much of the world stuck reveling in " destructive = negative harmful " ways, as evidenced by what a majority choose spending their hard-earned $$ on for " Entertaining, News, etc " - - - it seems this "actor's" greater Public-exposure makes it even more important, producing a Film demonstrating *benevolent = positive helpful* ways of using " nlp " ; agreed ?

You said :
" I think that this example is not really comparable with speed seduction as that is a very personal theft... almost like a rape (in this context at least)... This is more like stealing sweeties from the sweetie factory... would it really be in the same league ?? "

Their common bed-fellow being " Self-ishness ", yes ? ... as in : " I want to experience what I want, and I want it now, better and faster".
Now, don't get me wrong, we were born wanting ... , but
*not* at the expense of another person's joyfullness, right ? : Influencing, or manipulating, another in ways they don't want to have any part in is " selfishness ", agreed ? Thus, what does the variation of degree matter ?
in this case, Money, or Sexual intimacy --- Does that explain it better ?

Might it be a really novel idea producing *each* Film encouraging people focusing in increasingly *benevolent = positive helpful* directions ? :) Who knows, how that can Influence the world for GOOD :D

Annie

j0hnny#

05-02-2004, 05:27 AM

Hi Annie,

Thanks for your thoughts

With so much of the world stuck reveling in " destructive = negative harmful " ways, as evidenced by what a majority choose spending their hard-earned $$ on for " Entertaining, News, etc " - - - it seems this "actor's" greater Public-exposure makes it even more important, producing a Film demonstrating *benevolent = positive helpful* ways of using " nlp " ; agreed ?

Not sure I agree that entertainment, news, etc.(?).. is destructive and negative (wouldn't it have to be only idealistically so??? and what is the cause of so much of 'the world's problems' if not conflicting idealisms???). Derren Brown is not making a show about ways of using NLP explicitly... though it looks to me and perhaps some others here as though he is using NLP techniques... To me his show is not about 'look, watch this, here is a way to manipulate people...' it is about speculation, entertainment... how did he do that???.... now if that stimulates people to take up an interest in matters psychological (as it has done - there is evidence e.g. in an earlier post) what is the problem... Or should we only be controlled under the auspices of joy and love... seems as though you may have little confidence in people... my friend

You said :
" I think that this example is not really comparable with speed seduction as that is a very personal theft... almost like a rape (in this context at least)... This is more like stealing sweeties from the sweetie factory... would it really be in the same league ?? "

Their common bed-fellow being " Self-ishness ", yes ? ... as in : " I want to experience what I want, and I want it now, better and faster".
Now, don't get me wrong, we were born wanting ... , but
*not* at the expense of another person's joyfullness, right ? : Influencing, or manipulating, another in ways they don't want to have any part in is " selfishness ", agreed ? Thus, what does the variation of degree matter ?
in this case, Money, or Sexual intimacy --- Does that explain it better ?

I think your position here can be perceived as a bit naive... you seem to be saying that the only thing of value to a person is his/her joyfulness.... there are many things we do, and are influenced to do, that we would rather not have any part in - that doesn't mean that in every instance they are BAD. Adverse conditions can be the playground of personal growth... and learning can be painful.... what's more even altruism has a selfish motivation if you submit it to the rigour of reduction... if you disagree keep asking - why do want them to be joyful??? (because seeing the suffering is so horrible... perhaps? and to who (is it painful) ultimately? whose pain motivates?)

Now please understand me here, I think joyfulness is a wonderful thing to promote... its is, nonetheless, possible to get carried away...

Most people who are exposed to Derren's tricks (whether as participant or observer) are amazed at the way he managed to control the situation and are intruiged enough to investigate his 'magic' (some people, of course, treat it with fear and suspicion). The teller in this example (Derren told her she had given him the money on a losing ticket - and she) was flumoxed as to why she did it (as was the cabby and no doubt the phone booth people) - she was not, thereby, plunged into a deep state of sorrow...:D .... so is this really as bad as taking something very personal to a person through a series of manipulative strategies (and them finding out), now that would cause some distress I imagine.... So I am inclined to disagree with you when you say there is no matter over degrees of selfishness.

Like I say, I'm of the opinion that the world is full of influence and not always what we want .... but that doesn't make it necessarily BAD... what I think is sad is if people fail to grow out of anything they perceive to be adversity - I value learning highly... I want to be able to play the game of life well.... that can be a lot of fun. Others don't .....each to their own.

Might it be a really novel idea producing *each* Film encouraging people focusing in increasingly *benevolent = positive helpful* directions ? :) Who knows, how that can Influence the world for GOOD :D
I think there are lots of programs like this (even if not explicitly), in fact, isn't Derren's one of them.... someone said earlier that they got into nlp as a result of his show... now isn't that something positive? Or perhaps you are worried s/he will do something BAD as a result? Certainly they will have knowledge of how to exercise a higher degree of control over their life than perhaps previously... this can be extremely liberating

I'm inclined to say that things are a little less black and white than your post suggests......

Peace:)

Annie

05-02-2004, 10:36 AM

Hi j0hnny#,

Thanks for your thoughts, as well; and
I am quite contend ending it here by saying " You're right, of course :) ", and having you continue figgering out how Derren Brown does his thing !

Annie

j0hnny#

05-02-2004, 10:54 AM

lol, ok thanks.....:D

Unregistered

05-08-2004, 01:37 PM

Was sceptical that DB used stooges for many of his tricks on TV. I went to see him perform in person and can totally rule that out now. One of his methods of choosing a participant was to throw a sponge ball into the audience and ask people to throw it on 3 times. The person who caught it the third time would be chosen. In this example he was able to guess what number the person had chosen between 20 and 100. The person did not move from his seat onto stage and simply wrote the number on a whiteboard which he then held very close to his chest. If he had managed to track the movements on the whiteboard he could have known what number the person had written. What was really shocking was that he threw out an obvious wrong number and then said to the lady sitting next to him was that your number. She said it was. She had written down nothing. It really did throw me. Also he managed to perform the trick where he guesses a surname that someone is thinking of. As they dont write it down and are just asked to envisage it, i cant understand how he could have accurately guessed the surname McGran. Im still in awe of the performance which for one as sceptical as myself really did get me thinking.

Don

05-08-2004, 01:41 PM

:-)
That's why Derren is a great entertainer.
What you have described are all well-known magic tricks, relying on no psychic abilities or NLP.

newbie32

05-08-2004, 06:49 PM

I had the good fortune of being 'selected' for Derren's new series 'trick of the mind'. I spent a day filming with Derren and also had dinner with him. I now know exactly how he does his tricks, and can quite confidently confirm that no mind-reading, NLP or psychology is used. It's all a con.

First off, you must understand that almost EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the show who Derren does a trick on has been pre-selected at a hypnosis audition. Random members of the public are invited by word of mouth to a secret audition, where Derren performs routine hypnosis methods, such as getting people to clasp their hands together real tight till they can't open them, making them imagine walking down and down and down staris while listening to his voice etc etc He basically hypnotises the audience in the traditional way. Obviously not all the audience are hypnotisable, and he gradually selects those who are.
The hypnosis was exactly the same as the two hypnosis shows i've been part of on stage, and also read about in hypnosis books.
Once he had about 10 really hypnotisable people his production company got our details and we all went home. (the london cabbie was at my audition, as well as the 'scared' film student)

On the day of filming Derren hypnotised me again, in private away from the cameras. He told me that when he said X i would do Y. Simple. So, when the cameras started rolling, he did his usual stupid schpeel pretending to influence me by saying 'cryptic' things like 'sometimes you mind does things you don;t know about' and 'i can read from your eyes that you are suggestible'. Of course, I was hypnotised and just had to respond to his X command. Exactly like on the Paul McKenna shows.

The con is that he will never show himself hypnotising people, and just pretends like the 'stooge' is a normal random person. There are three lies here
a) they are a stooge
b) they have been hypnotised off camera
c) no NLP or psychology is used, and whatever he claims he is doing is false.

Needless to say he said X and I did Y. I was truly hypnotised and the 'trick' worked. But of course the audience of the show are made to think that I have been sublimenly influenced by the way he talked to me on camera. NOT TRUE.

Anyway, we spent the day filming, doing the same trick at different locations, each time I had to pretend like I'd just met him.

He then took me and his PA out to dinner, and this is when he told me his secrets. (not all of them of course)

He said to me: 'Don't think that I hypnotised you. I didn't. I used a combination of mind control techinques and was influencing you on an unconscious level. So, don't go round telling people I hypnotised you.'
He said this while looking straight into my eyes. I almost cracked up laughing.
I asked how he felt conning people so badly, to which he replied ' I'm not conning them. I'm entertaining them. I'm making them react by setting up the trick to make it look more powerful than it is. That's what magic is about.'

I got a little angry with him and basically told him that he was a hypnotist. At this point he retaliated by showing me some card tricks. He did that one on his new series that he did with stephen fry. (he has pre-rolled cards in two different cigarette packets in his pocket, and a false deck which only shows eoght cards repeated when viewed from one side, and a whole pack when viewed from the other side)

He then said 'do you think i'm conning you now that you know how that card trick was done?' I said ' no, it's just a card trick, and you siad that it would be just that - a card trick. The con i'm worried about is that you tell your audience rubbish about influencing people and reading body signals and you're not, you're hypnotising them, then lying to the audience'.

needless to say, he wasn't too impressed. He still paid for my dinner.

so, i can now tell you how his other tricks are done:

phonebooth: pre-hypnotised person picks up phone, derren says 'sleep'. person sleeps.

mind-reading for 10p : pre-hypnotised people 'meet', and just say exactly what derren told them to say

london cabbie: pre-hypnotised cabbie 'forgets' where something is, just because he's been told to. NB nothing to do with derren banging on the window or interupting patterns.

invisible man: pre-hypnotised guy actually thinks he can't see derren.NB nothing to do with what derren says to him.

how many fingers?: pre-hypnotised kid pulls out the number of fingers that derren says. NB derren 'guesses' a number, and the kid pulls this same number out of his pockets AFTER derren said the number, because he's been hypnotised to respond to derren's guess.

i could go on, but you get the picture. If you have difficulty understanding how he does future tricks, just think about the fact that derren has simply hypnotised his stooge beforehand, and whatever he says on camera is misleading pyschobabble rubbish designed to get the NLP freaks turned on :)

not all of his tricks are done by hypnosis. the remainign few are simple card tricks and sleight of hand magic. remember, he used to be a sleight of hand magician before. these tricks are very good tricks in their own right, but again derren cons the audience by making them think he's influenced people with his 'mind-control', when really, it's just a simple trick.

i suppose the die-hard fans are saying 'so what? it's still entertaining'. yes, it is entertaining, because derren hypes it up so much more than it deserves, and he covers it with a facade of pyschology which simply isn't true. i don't like being lied to, nor do i like someone making a living out of lying to thousands of people. that's why i'm exposing him.

that said, he is a very nice man, quite witty too. shame about being such a big fake.

(PS: sadly, the trick he did on me is not going to be shown in this series, according to his production company who rang me last week)

Unregistered

05-10-2004, 04:35 AM

thanks newbie32 you have just confirmed my suspicions.

Unregistered

05-10-2004, 09:33 AM

Unregistered (post 8th May 2004). I'm guessing this was the show at Birmingham? If so, I was the bloke who he did the number guessing finale to the show on. He guessed the number I had written down & then surpassed himself with all the number sequenses on the grid also adding up to my secret number in lots of combinations! Amazing to say the least. The last numebr he wrote down also happened to be the number my girlfriend (sitting next to me) was secretly thinking of...

Neither of us were hypnotised beforehand & neither of us are stooges.

During the interval I also spoke to the guy who had to draw a picture for Derren to "read his mind" (he chose a rocket) who was sitting nearby. I asked when he decided upon a rocket & he said it was when Derren moved the stage prop away (black cardboard with triangle, square & circle on), essentially to draw the guys attention to it I guess. He said he was going to draw a christmas tree but changed it to a rocket. Strange enough I happened to mention to my girlfriend during this part of the show that if I was on stage I would draw a christmas tree!!

I don't think there's any Blaine off camera style cheating like Newbie32 suggests. I genuinely think it's to do with perception.

This of course could all change dramatically if you didn't see the Birmingham show ...after all, it would be *very* strange to guess the name McGran at more than one show!!!

solaris152000

05-10-2004, 10:52 AM

Yes i just went to see deren brown yesterday, and he selected audience members with a frizby, But I hope you are a god damn lier, about him using stooges, becuase I have put so much time into practicing nlp style tricks that derren does. And to say he is a lier tottaly pisses me off, I can't belive it. But the more I think about it the more sense it makes. If he has never studied phycoclgy or NLP at university then why is he so good, But then again I think you are lying because you have told us this and then said how youre not going to be in the show, so you cant tell us what...say deren's gonna do next week on trick of the mind.

This is what you will have to do to convince me, tell me what other tricks he will perform on the series. If you are lying please for the love of god tell me now.

Diehearted fan

newbie32

05-10-2004, 01:59 PM

firstly: i have not seen his stage show. i'm sorry i cannot comment on what he does in his stage show!! (though the drawing pictures one is just a plain magic trick)

secondly: what else will you see in the new series? he didn't tell me what tricks were going to be performed, in fact i didn't even know what my trick was going to be until the day of filming.
I asked members of the film crew etc and they aren't allowed to talk about it.

i know it sound slike i'm copping out... but it's the truth.

i was there, and he hypnotised me.

Unregistered

05-10-2004, 02:00 PM

Newbie32 - All very plausible (at the same time very improbable) but "Stooges are selected by word of mouth to a secret location". A part in a TV show you won't actually be in... Not the most convincing argument in the world is it?

Don

05-10-2004, 02:03 PM

Hi, Solaris.

Deren isn't a liar, he's an entertainer. He's playing a role. I don't get upset because Pierce Brosnan, in films, pretends to be James Bond. I suggest you consider the idea that Deren is playing a role, too.

By all means see his show, but understand that it is s show meant for entertainment. I'm sure you don't really think that David Copperfield really flies at the beginning of his shows. Does it make you made to hear that or are you just amazed and amused at the beauty of the illusion. I hope it's the latter, and I hope you continue to enjoy Deren for the fine entertainer and performer that he is.

newbie32

05-10-2004, 02:07 PM

i'm sure in almost every TV show they film parts that are never shown.

like the david blaine 'levitating' trick is all done by clever editing.

what makes you think that derren shows all the tricks that he does? do you really think he only does just the right number of tricks for each episode? or could you concede that he does loads of tricks and chooses the best ones for the show?

it just show happens that the trick he did with me wasn't deemed effective enough/interesting enough/entertaining enough for the series.

and do you really think he picks random people off the street? why don't they show him really randomly bumping into people? BECAUSE they have to agree to being filmed and hypnotised. therefore he chooses the most hypnotisable and sets up the trick to look like random.

it's all an ILLUSION. that's the con.

ThePuttKing

05-10-2004, 02:50 PM

I noticed in the "cabbie" trick he kept saying the word "wheel" as though it was a code word or something.

And at the Dog racing he said to the lady paying out the money ;"That's why we came to this "WINdow".

It was obvious the word "win" was another code word. I guess they were hypmotized too.

One thing : has he really got a photographic memory or is that fake too ?

Unregistered47

05-14-2004, 06:50 AM

I have been to Derren's show and also have suspicions about stooges in the show. I think it won't be long before he is found out by the public.

Newbie32, how did you get to be selected for selection (if that makes sense) for the show? By the way, I believe what you are saying.

Unregistered

05-14-2004, 07:24 AM

Derren uses no stooges in his live show. Go see Marc Salem, Banachek, Chris Carter, they do exactly the same thing. You think all these guys have a dozen or so stooges each? Besides many unknown experienced magicians could replicate the exact same effects without any stooges, so why would these guys risk using stooges and risk ruining their reputation?

Newbie 32, some of your claims are also false. Derren does not use hypnotised people for the fingers effect. This is an effect which Al Mann published in the 60's (around about the 60's if I remember correctly) and requires no hypnosis or stooges. Also with the 10p mindreader effect. This uses an age old magic principle, which, once again, requires no hypnosis or stooges. I understand that it's very easy to pass an effect off as requiring a stooge if there is no other explanation, but in these effects it is not the case.

Unregistered47

05-14-2004, 08:08 AM

Unregistered,

How are you so sure that Derren doesn't use stooges? Have you been to one of his shows? Or are you part of his team?

newbie32

05-14-2004, 01:37 PM

Sp0Ng£

05-14-2004, 02:57 PM

i have often used psychology in my stage shows. I can show you a trick now.

solaris152000, using cold reading, i know(think) your name begins with a D.

if I am right tell me.

Unregistered12

05-14-2004, 03:14 PM

if your so good sponge, make me "know" the first letter of his last name.

SpoNg£

05-14-2004, 03:19 PM

Ok,
I want to let the imaGe of the letter come to your mind.
when you Get it, you will know it feels right
/\
reply when you've got one.

By the way i have never had a stage show. and i also know solaris.

Unregistered12

05-14-2004, 03:21 PM

i got the letter G.
but i changed my mind from K.

SpoNg£

05-14-2004, 03:31 PM

is that right solaris?

(by the way i know its right)
(it just sounds better this way)
(it makes it seem like i dont know)

(which i do)
(obviously)
(cos im clever)
(and i know solaris(that puts the odds heavily in my favor))

Someone THINK OF a number from 1 to 10
and reply when you've got one(well you dont have to get "one", obviously)
(that would make it pointless)
i use too many brackets.
well i used to.
now ive stopped.

newbie32

05-14-2004, 06:28 PM

haha - to do cold reading, the subject has to be physically in front of you,

Don

05-14-2004, 06:32 PM

He may have hypnotised you. I would contend that has nothing to do with his tricks.

Don

05-14-2004, 06:37 PM

Stooges cost money. You have to pay them. Why spend money when you don't need to.

I've seen stooges used in magic acts. Sometimes it's very obvious. Sometimes, it is so unobvious that you have to know the trick to understand that a stooge is being used.

Sometimes, to people who are unfamiliar or only slightly familiar with magical principles, it would seem that the only answer is a stooge. To those in the "know," not having a stooge is simpler and thus, better.

Unregistered

05-15-2004, 01:58 AM

i was there. he hypnotised me.

are you telling me he didn't?

i also said that not all his tricks are done by hypnosis and stooges, instead they are simple magic tricks masked by his illusion of 'mind control'. so, thank you for backing me up on that one.

No, i'm not saying he didn't hypnotise you. Look back at my post. Which part of it makes that accusation? I simply stated that people pass off his effects as stooges as they don't know how they're done, when this is not the case. And I illustrated this by saying that 2 effects which you mention were done by hypnosis and stooges (the fingers and 10p to be a mindreader) were in fact achieved by completely different methods.

Don makes very valid points. Stooges are not only expensive, but they are dangerous. If one of them leaks they were a stooge, then your reputation on television is more or less ruined. Every effect you have done will be passed off as a stooge, as well as every effect thereafter. It's simply not worth the risk, especially when you don't need to use one.

unhypnotizablynot

05-15-2004, 02:39 AM

I would like to be Merlin's secret stooge.......

SpoNg£

05-15-2004, 05:13 AM

newbie32

05-15-2004, 05:44 AM

No, i'm not saying he didn't hypnotise you. Look back at my post. Which part of it makes that accusation? I simply stated that people pass off his effects as stooges as they don't know how they're done, when this is not the case. And I illustrated this by saying that 2 effects which you mention were done by hypnosis and stooges (the fingers and 10p to be a mindreader) were in fact achieved by completely different methods.

Don makes very valid points. Stooges are not only expensive, but they are dangerous. If one of them leaks they were a stooge, then your reputation on television is more or less ruined. Every effect you have done will be passed off as a stooge, as well as every effect thereafter. It's simply not worth the risk, especially when you don't need to use one.
listen... how can you say he doesn't use stooges when clearly he hypnotised me to do what he wanted? I was the stooge!!!! there were about 60 other people at the selection audition... all of them potential stooges!!! He paid me £40 in return for filming that day. Stooges aren't expensive! Also, I am leaking that I am a stooge, and quite obviously it's not ruining his reputation, because you don't believe me!!!

Again, NOT ALL his tricks are done using hypnotised stooges. But the ones where he guesses things, makes people do strange things.. are almost all done using stooges. The rest are simple magic tricks. How many times do i have to say this?

I appreciate your synicism on this, but the fact remains, I was there, I saw some people at the selection audition who ended up in the show, I saw him hypnotise ALL of them (the ones who made it onto TV) at this selection audition.

He makes you believe that he has powerful suggestion techniques, when he doesn't. He uses some simple techniques in some tricks to make people believe in these techniques, then he uses stooges in other tricks making people think that he is still using those techniques. Derren even admits that he 'started out in hypnotism at university'.

Often in magic the simplest most obvious explanation is right there in front of you, and a good magician misdirects you from that obvious truth. That is what Derren is about, the whole premise is set up to misdirect you from the truth that most of his subjects are hypnotised. He does it very well admittedly. But the truth remains, he hypnotises people off camera.

newbie32

05-15-2004, 05:48 AM

SpoNg£

05-15-2004, 05:55 AM

solaris152000

05-15-2004, 06:22 AM

unregisterded guest whoever you are my last name does start with G and you got it right because spunge subliminallised u!

SpoNg£

05-15-2004, 06:38 AM

solaris, think of a number from 1 to 10.
-any number you want to pick.
-a number i wontwont be able to guess.
reply when youve got one.

solaris152000

05-15-2004, 06:43 AM

got one, yes i have thought of one but it is not one cos i thought of that but then saw what u wre tryin to do ;)

sponge

05-15-2004, 06:48 AM

no i wasnt trying that, as it says in a previous post.
any way, think of it.......
..............
..
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.was it by any chance 2

solaris152000

05-15-2004, 06:51 AM

sorry it was 6, but i could see what u were tryin to do :)

sponge

05-15-2004, 06:53 AM

i was going to say 6 if i found out 2 was wrong, what do you think i was trying to do?

solaris152000

05-15-2004, 06:57 AM

You said the same word twice, ring me cos im loggin off now.But you have shown how derren brown works to the gang!

Sponge

05-15-2004, 07:25 AM

i used the word "wont" twice and in the middle of them it said "TWO" (won'TWOn't)
it didnt work, but he noticed i used it twice so he avoided 2.

If you think your clever, pick one-
Left or Right.
I should be able to guess it right.
someone post back or i'll cry :(

newbie32

05-15-2004, 09:01 AM

newbie32,
if most of his tricks rely on pre-hypnotism, why dont C4 fire his ass and get someone who really can do the stuff he says he does.
If he uses stooges at his live shows, he must be a pretty badass frizbier(if thats how you spell it).
he uses "waking-hypnosis" not "cheap-pointless-editedout-stooge-hypnosis"
name one of his tricks that couldnt be done without stooges, and i'll try(and probably fail)to say how its done.

he hypnotised me ...

anyway, most magic tricks are a set-up in some way! lots need props, special equipment etc... derren's stuff needs hypnotised people.
i haven't seen his live shows, so i can't comment on that.

ok... how does he make someone think he's invisible, without hypnosis?
how does he make someone 'sleep' without hypnosis?

Unregistered

05-15-2004, 09:10 AM

[QUOTE=newbie32]listen... how can you say he doesn't use stooges when clearly he hypnotised me to do what he wanted? I was the stooge!!!! there were about 60 other people at the selection audition... all of them potential stooges!!! He paid me £40 in return for filming that day. Stooges aren't expensive! Also, I am leaking that I am a stooge, and quite obviously it's not ruining his reputation, because you don't believe me!!!

QUOTE]

The definition of a stooge (I would know, i've been a magician for 16 years), is an accomplice for the magician, who deliberately helps him achieve his desired goal. So, they could tell the magician what card someone picked, or pretend they are an innocent audience member and deliberately select a pre-arranged number, or card, etc. when prompted to. A hypnotised person does not fit in with this.

The film student who had the invisible man effect done to him. He was genuinely scared. In no way was he deliberately helping Derren achieve his goal. He wasn't pretending that he couldn't see Derren, he geniuinely could not see him. Ok, he was hypnotised, but at what point in Derren's disclaimer does he say that he doesn't use hypnotised people?

Same with the voodoo doll effect. Derren clearly used an anchor. However, the woman genuinely could not mover her feet, or speak. She wasn't an actor or a stooge pretending she couldn't. These people do not match the definiton of a stooge. They MAYBE hypnotised volunteers, but not stooges or actors.

Sponge

05-15-2004, 10:47 AM

youve got to admit ,newbie32.
you have no proof it happend.
no one else has said they were going to be in the show and were
pre-hypnotised.
:rolleyes:
all the tricks he does will be possible through the way he says they are done, weather he can do it using those methods or not.

by-the-by, did anyone see the advert for a dvd at the end of this weeks "trick of the mind"?
was it for a dvd of the new series or was it just for "inside your mind"? :confused:

Don

05-15-2004, 12:01 PM

Do you believe the methods he says he uses couldnt ever work?

(suggestion, subliminal messages etc.)

I've tried using them for tricks, and they work about 70% of the time. and im only 14 and stupid(not really), so someone clever should be able to do it 99% of the time.

A performer needs 100% success. Not 99%. Not 70%. Performers who try to include the use of suggestions, etc., always have an "out," a way of getting around failures so they look like successes.

Don

05-15-2004, 12:05 PM

There is an entire field of magic which does not require any props, or at least very few. The performer can entertain a large audience with nothing more than himself and maybe a pad of paper and a pen. It is the branch of magic called "mentalism."

Don

05-15-2004, 12:12 PM

There is no reason to hypnotize a stooge. Stooges are paid to do something unreal. If I paid you 40 pounds to agree that whatever card I named you would say that you were thinking of, you'd be a stooge. Not need to hypnotize you at all. And if he hypnotized you to do what he wanted, why pay you at all? Maybe just for your time?

Sponge

05-15-2004, 01:16 PM

A performer needs 100% success. Not 99%. Not 70%. Performers who try to include the use of suggestions, etc., always have an "out," a way of getting around failures so they look like successes.
if a trick doesn't work on one person out of a hundred, it doesn't make the trick any worse for the other 99 people, as long as they dont see the times it doesn't work.
The things derren brown claims to do cant possibly work on everyone, all the time.
i think the better tricks are ones that can only be practised by doing the trick with people, not practised by repeating a sleight etc.

newbie32

05-15-2004, 01:25 PM

The definition of a stooge (I would know, i've been a magician for 16 years), is an accomplice for the magician, who deliberately helps him achieve his desired goal. So, they could tell the magician what card someone picked, or pretend they are an innocent audience member and deliberately select a pre-arranged number, or card, etc. when prompted to. A hypnotised person does not fit in with this.

The film student who had the invisible man effect done to him. He was genuinely scared. In no way was he deliberately helping Derren achieve his goal. He wasn't pretending that he couldn't see Derren, he geniuinely could not see him. Ok, he was hypnotised, but at what point in Derren's disclaimer does he say that he doesn't use hypnotised people?

Same with the voodoo doll effect. Derren clearly used an anchor. However, the woman genuinely could not mover her feet, or speak. She wasn't an actor or a stooge pretending she couldn't. These people do not match the definiton of a stooge. They MAYBE hypnotised volunteers, but not stooges or actors.

OK OK... I see you're bringing up the technicalities of what exactly a stooge is. Fair enough. These people aren't 'in on the trick'... but they are hypnotised. Maybe i used the wrong word, but the principle of lying to the audience about the validity of the 'test subject' still remains.

That is my exact point.... Derren Brown never tells anyone he has hypnotised people, never shows himself hypnotising people, never says 'look at this hypnotised person'. In fact, he says stuff like 'you've never met me before have you?' whan patently, they have. (e.g the taxi driver was at my selection audition, I saw him with my own eyes, and in the TV series Derren Brown asks the cabbie if it's OK to film him, when obviously he has been asked to attend filming that day and has been pre-hypnotised. My point being that Derren tried to make the audience think that the cabbie was random, when he wasn't) - kind of stooge-like? Definately a set-up! Anchor/stooge whatever you call it... it's a lie to the audience!!

You've also backed me up on the fact that he must use hypnosis in his tricks in your last response, so thank you!!!

I guess you're just out to prove me wrong because, as you claim, you're a magician, and so magical exposure annoys you. Sorry about that... maybe Derren should think of better tricks other than using pre-hypnotised people.

Oh, one more thing... anyone who says that I'm the only person to claim this... just talk to any of my friends who were there at the audition, and also my friends who showed up on the day of filming... they saw him hypnotise me, and some were hypnotised themselves at the audition!

newbie32

05-15-2004, 01:37 PM

all the tricks he does will be possible through the way he says they are done, weather he can do it using those methods or not.

i don't think so at all.
Take for instance 'reading someone's mind'. Say that he guesses that they are thinking of the death of their pet hamster. What makes you think that, just by looking at someone, he can tell the difference between them thinking about a hamster or say, a mouse? it's ridiculous!!! it's just not possible!

There is no scientific documented evidence that the techniques he claims to use actually work! He doesn't claim to use NLP (which has never been scientifically validated anyway), he doesn't claim to use hypnosis (which does have scientific validation), he just claims to 'fuse' mentalism (which isn't even a real entity, it's a description of his type of magic) with showmanship.

What techniques does he claim to use? And of those, have any been proven to work? (answer: no)

I think you'll find that it is impossible to pull off the illusions he does using ONLY the techniques he says he uses.

Of course, I expect you all to reply saying, what about the simple tricks like guessing a number and guessing a name etc. My response to you is this: it's all a simple magic trick. Look it up on the internet, it is out there!

The complex tricks involving e.g invisibility, immobility, forgetfullness, cannot be done using simple magic tricks. Hypnosis IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE explanation. I defy anyone reading this to explain his complex tricks using any other (proven) method. My bet is that you can't, OR you'll just spout back what Derren says about it.

Sponge

05-15-2004, 03:40 PM

newbie32, maybe he hypnotised you for one trick they were going to do.
maybe the other people there(like the taxi driver) werent being hypnotised and they were just agreeing to be filmed etc.

you said "Hypnosis IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE explanation."
but he claims to be using hypnotism. just not hypnotism where it takes a long time relaxing the subject beforehand. I know you believe in hypnosis, but do you believe in waking hypnosis and embedded comands, like on the tube where he makes people forget where they are going by saying things like,
-"what stop,thinking about it now,"
and at the dog racing when he says,
-"thats why we came to this WINdow"
i dont know if i believe they work as well as they seem to, but i know they work to some extent.

NickB

05-15-2004, 09:30 PM

Hey newbie32,

I'm actually a mentalist and I perform lots of similar tricks that Derren performs. I see where you're coming from but Derren's show is entertainment, not science. Derren was kind enough to publish two books and one video of his effects. He also employs a couple of very known mentalists as consultants. I've recognized many of the tricks as variations of of some of the staple pieces of many people in the mentalist community. I believe you when you say he selects easily suggestible people. That was the whole point of the Russian Roulette was to find someone like that so I don't see the point of calling them a "stooge." They're not stooges but people who are easily influenced. Can he do these tricks on anyone? Of course not. He even shows when tricks have failed. For example, the tube scene in which he tries to make people forget. Some work, some don't. I actually try to make people forget by using similar techniques. More often than not, if you distract people enough, they tend to forget a random card.

He does not use stooges in his card effects. They're all easily explained. Some of his stuff is not 100% though and he's fine with that. He has a way out of many of them.

Also, when he allows that female psychology student to pick an envelope with money, that ain't a stooge either. Also, when he asks a guy to put a bracelet under one of the 6 cups, that's not a stooge either.

/nick

Don

05-16-2004, 02:06 AM

Yes, as you understand it, the effects Deren Brown does couldn't possibly work on everyone all the time. He's like a juggler who has practiced something until he can do a stunt every time, but makes it look very difficult to make the performance more interesting.

You're correct in saying that if a trick doesn't work on one person out of a hundred, it doesn't make the trick any worse for the other 99 people. But he generally doesn't perform for one person. He performs for an audience. If he failed before an audience of 100 people, those people would go out and tell their friends. 100 would quickly become 1,000, and 1,000 would become 10,000. Soon he would have no audience at all.

OzThe2

05-16-2004, 12:15 PM

DB is nothing more than a cheap two-bit trickster.

I have nothing against being 'entertained' by a magician, but when he states that there are 'no stooges' and suggests that his tricks are some form of mind-control when clearly they are not, that's when I get annoyed.

He has lied - and that's the difference.

A magician doesn't lie - everyone knows it'sa trick when the girl gets sawn in half but we are still amazed. So why does he insist on lying to his audience and claiming skills that are simply not true?

Read this article - you will find it very interesting.....

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

Even channel 4 have come under so much pressure that they have removed the programmes web page from their science section and placed it under entertainment.

This guy makes money by lying. How do you feel? :mad:

solaris152000

05-16-2004, 12:55 PM

Newbie 32 you just got owned buy spunge, my last name does begin with G, so you see, that is just a demenstation of derren browns techniques.

Sponge

05-16-2004, 01:42 PM

newbie32

05-16-2004, 03:18 PM

hi nick...
good points!

i have his 'devils picturebook' video, and , yes, it as all plain sleight of hand. 100% of the way.

also, like we both said, he doesn't use hypnotism/mentalism in all his tricks.... but this is where I find trouble with him... he claims that EVERYTHING he does is by mentalism. if he said, 'now i'm going to do a card trick' and 'now i'm going to hypnotise someone to make them do something' he would be being honest. Instead he chooses to lie to the audience the whole way through and creates (though not directly) the FALSE PRETENCE that every trick on his show is done using 'mind techniques'. (apart from of course the nail through the nose)

i understand that this is his niche as it were, and he relies on this facade of 'mind control'... but I have very little respect for it. He offers no real glimpse at how it can be done (unlike many other famous magicians who always admit it is a trick and offer audience to try and figure it out) and LIES about how he does it.

I know he shows when tricks have failed... far enough... he also 'explains' some tricks using pathetic false pseudo psychology. Sickening.

He is an insult to your intelligence.

I wonder what the tabloid newspapers would say if they had proof that he pre-hypnotises people? Just another Paul mcKenna?

victim1

05-16-2004, 04:09 PM

when Derren says he doesnt use stooges , that isnt a legally binding admission ,there are obviously other lie points he says , (reading body language etc..), personally i dont think he does use them ,you couldnt keep on produxcing stooges for every show live or tv, and people do go to see him more than once a run of live shows . also a stooge doesnt nessecarily cost money at all, if you use an instant stooge or pre-show work it can be the same thing , he must definitly use preshow work , like the time on jonathon ross when he got the name of the school right . to learn more of instant stooging , track down kenton kneppers work.i dont thin it really matters if he does preshow work or not its still entertaining .

newbie32

05-16-2004, 05:11 PM

NickB

05-16-2004, 06:47 PM

i agree with NickB,
i dont think his tricks are sleight of hand and stuff like that. I've tried some(most) of the tricks he does using only the methods he claims to be using, and they work, like the envelope one and "the coin in the hand" and simple ones like that, and they work most of the time.
you said, "I actually try to make people forget by using similar techniques. More often than not, if you distract people enough, they tend to forget a random card. " TELL ME HOW TO DO THAT. :confused:
Again, this is not always 100% but if you ask someone to select a card and you ask them to recall after asking them to perform a difficult mental task in-between and bombard them with nonsense, there's a good chance that they'll either forget the suit or the value of a card. This is not really a trick, per se. Derren says in his book that he's not afraid to attempt these effects that are not 100%. He's happy if they work 80% of the time.

hi nick...
good points!

i have his 'devils picturebook' video, and , yes, it as all plain sleight of hand. 100% of the way.

also, like we both said, he doesn't use hypnotism/mentalism in all his tricks.... but this is where I find trouble with him... he claims that EVERYTHING he does is by mentalism. if he said, 'now i'm going to do a card trick' and 'now i'm going to hypnotise someone to make them do something' he would be being honest. Instead he chooses to lie to the audience the whole way through and creates (though not directly) the FALSE PRETENCE that every trick on his show is done using 'mind techniques'. (apart from of course the nail through the nose)

i understand that this is his niche as it were, and he relies on this facade of 'mind control'... but I have very little respect for it. He offers no real glimpse at how it can be done (unlike many other famous magicians who always admit it is a trick and offer audience to try and figure it out) and LIES about how he does it.

I know he shows when tricks have failed... far enough... he also 'explains' some tricks using pathetic false pseudo psychology. Sickening.

He is an insult to your intelligence.

I wonder what the tabloid newspapers would say if they had proof that he pre-hypnotises people? Just another Paul mcKenna?

Not everything is sleight of hand in his video. "Jack of Spades" trick, for example is not a sleight. It's a clever technique nonetheless and falls into the category of 80% probability tricks. When I watched it, I actually thought of J of S. I was astonished.

You're right about his 'explanation' of the tricks... they're completely misleading but then again, he's a magician! Just like lawyers, magicians have a loophole in their ethics that allows them to lie. Hehe. His explanations, more or less, always make him appear extremely powerful. But, that's the entertainment aspect of the show. If he didn't act like he could read your mind, no one would believe him.

As for the newspapers, I hope everyone realizes that he's a mentalist and an entertainer. Reporting that he's not superhuman is not news. He's just extremely skilled at deception and hypnosis.

BTW, did you meet that voodoo doll woman? She was obviously hypnotized... no way you could do that trick otherwise. To those who haven't seen t, it's available at the C4 website.

PS: I remember that episode with those three hot models... I wonder if you were in the same session as them ;). I think that was last season... hehe.

Don

05-16-2004, 08:00 PM

NickB

05-16-2004, 10:18 PM

Let's get real for a moment. Deren is a magician and an entertainer. If he said, "I'm now doing a card force" he would be a failed magician and entertainer.

If you go to see the new movie Troy, are you going to say that Brad Pitt is an insult to your intelligence because he's claiming to be Achilles?

If you are a layperson, enjoy his show by wondering what he is doing. If you are a beginning magician, enjoy trying to figure out his techniques. And if you are an advanced magician, enjoy his presentation.

Exactly. Exposure would just ruin the magic and would destroy his show. It would also make the show extremely boring. It's just suspended disbelief.

I am disappointed that he uses hypnosis so much.

BTW, he comments on NLP in his books and doesn't think much of it.

Unregistered47

05-17-2004, 03:51 AM

I have been to two of Derren's shows recently. After the second show I concluded that he uses stooges a lot of the time. I wouldn't mind if it was just hypnotism that he uses but I believe he uses stooges who are part of his team and who act a part for the show. One simple example is that for his second half trick he calls somebody down called Rosemary. The magic part is prior to this which I accept and I don't mind that if uses only one for the show. However, people called on stage in one show look very similar to people in another show.

In the second show I decided to try and work out how the tricks are done so I concentrated a lot harder than the previous show. I noticed that Derren always threw the frisby into the same section of the audience - front right in this case. I was sitting at the back so had a good view of everything. Towards the end, 2 people came into the back of the auditorium carrying a item of clothing. Derren also was very strict about saying that people couldn't use cameras during the show.

newbie32

05-17-2004, 05:20 AM

what i'm trying to get at is the fact that derren completely misdirects the audience.

take Penn and teller for instance. the shooting a bullet and catching it trick. all the way through they say, it's a trick, it's a trick, they offer the audience real touches of guns and bullets (though the guns and bullets may not actually be real) and make the audience question the trick. they try and get the audience to the point where they are LOOKING for the switch, or the trickery. this, in my view, is excellent magic. to have the trick pulled right underneath your nose! (obviously there is preperation of props etc, but the audience get to see pretty much everything)

on the other hand, derren brown DOESN'T show himself pre-selecting and pre-hypnotising people, he doesn't offer the audience the chance to scrutinise the trick. He hides EVERYTHING, and covers it up with false pseudo psychology. He doesn't say what kind of trick he's doing, (he claims EVERYTHING is mentalism, when it isn't), and he doesn't tell any truths.

see the difference? penn and teller's trick is obviuosly a trick, they openly admit it, and offer the scrutiny of the audience, yet it is still ENTERTAINING. derren brown says it is a trick of the mind, and will not EVER even hint at his real methods (because to be fair, hypnotising people is a very poor trick).

Unregistered47

05-17-2004, 05:53 AM

I agree. Derren does lie incessantly. Even when being interviewed away from his shows.

solaris152000

05-17-2004, 08:20 AM

Spunge stop spamming, I started this thread to learn not to be bored to death with your little mind games.:mad:

Does anyone have any help and advice on how to do the things derren does?

Unregistered

05-17-2004, 09:46 AM

Does anyone have any help and advice on how to do the things derren does?

That's a very disrespectful thing to ask. Derren's and magician's livelihoods are based around secrets. They're not available to be given out to whomever asks. If you really are serious then I suggest you pick up Henry Hay's Magician's Handbook, and go from there.

solaris152000

05-17-2004, 11:42 AM

Grrr, I am not intrested in magic wotsoever, I want to know more on subliminal messages, through body language, mind control and suggestion. I didnt mean to be rude to spunge but I know him and he plays thoose mind games so much Ive lost mine. lol. Anyways back on topic, I want to know of more sites like the channel 4 one , where it explains deeply on suggestion, and subliminals.

thanks
solaris

Sponge

05-17-2004, 01:09 PM

are there any sites that go into more specific detail for tricks than the c4 one?
most of it only explains the theory behind the tricks. not how you can apply it to tricks (rapport, coinditioned response etc.)
is there a new dvd of the "trick of the mind" series, i thought it was advertised at the end of fridays.
and is there a new DB book being made? or was that just a rumour? :confused:

newbie32

05-18-2004, 04:27 AM

Having read that article and OzThe2's response, I am very happy to see that I'm not the only one who thinks Derren Brown is a fraud.

Of course, Singh doesn't know the secret about Derren's use of hypnosis... which just furthers the arguement more.

What is most infuriating about the whole thing is that people still BELIEVE Derren. People are still trying to influence people using subliminal messages and 'techniques' which Derren claims to use... when THEY DON'T WORK. As the article states, if Derren really could do what he does using those ONLY those techniques, he would be doing something which scientists have never been able to do or prove. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

Derren has sent the gullible among you on a quest to find out about these techniques, when in reality they are totaly bogus.

If you want to copy Derren Brown, the first thing you have to learn is how to LIE COMPLETELY. Pretend that you DO have psychic powers (but you don't). Then, learn some simple magic tricks, mix in a bit of sly hypnosis (all off camera of course)... and there you have it.

Derren Brown is a fraud, a conman, and a liar.

Sponge

05-18-2004, 08:09 AM

the things he uses DO WORK. some maybe tricks, but subliminal messages/ suggestion, even if he doesn't use them for all his tricks.
anyway, if these things aren't completely made up, where could you find out about it?

solaris152000

05-18-2004, 09:24 AM

Look don, you dont get the point im trying to make that on the derren brown channel 4 website he gives phycological explanations for his "tricks", I want to be able to do what he does, without stooges and whatever.

Don

05-18-2004, 09:51 AM

...Derren has sent the gullible among you on a quest to find out about these techniques, when in reality they are totaly bogus.

If you want to copy Derren Brown, the first thing you have to learn is how to LIE COMPLETELY. Pretend that you DO have psychic powers (but you don't). Then, learn some simple magic tricks, mix in a bit of sly hypnosis (all off camera of course)... and there you have it.

Derren Brown is a fraud, a conman, and a liar.

So let me get this straight.
Brown has done such a wonderful job entertaining people that people think he's real. And you're criticizing this.

When an actor does a great job, we believe that he is the character. You aren't accusing him or her of being a fraud, conman, or liar.

Anne Rice invented a world of romantic vampires and tens of thousands of people try to live in that world. But you don't criticize her for being a fraud, conman, or liar.

But for some reason, because Brown does a good job, you are very upset with him. So I'm wondering why you aren't complaining about Rice or about good actors.

Rather than make this a specific situation, I'd like to point out that this type of behavior--attacking someone who is successful/attacking someone who is found out to be doing something other than tha person claimed--is not uncommon. Hypnotherapists/NLP practitioners will find this many times in their practice.

There are probably several causes. I think many people may point to jealousy as being a prime cause, but I don't think that is the most common one. Rather, I see the prime cause as anger triggered by disappointment in one's own failure to perceive the potential for disappointment.

For example. Mary falls in love with John and although John never says they are exclusive or that he loves her, etc., she assumes that he feels the same toward her. Then Mary discovers that John has been seeing other women.

Mary is upset at John. But why? He did nothing to imply that she was his "one and only." No, she made assumptions and he failed to fulfill them. Her anger is due to his failure to live up to her false expectations as well as her own inability to see what he was really doing.

I have seen many people end up dwelling in their anger over their inability to see what they consider the fraud of another. They will go out of their way to be angry at the other. I have seen people spend years in this anger.

There are several ways of helping people with this. The primary method, of course, is to help the person deal with the anger and rage.

I knew one person, years ago, who maintained anger at another and wished him dead. "But he's 1,000 miles away and you never talk to him," I said. "For all practical purposes he is dead." She was shocked at my tryiing to break her out of her line of thought, but then slipped back into it and said she'd still like to kill him.

Don

05-18-2004, 10:21 AM

Hi, Solaris.

I fully understand the point you are trying to make.

FYI, I have performed magic for over 30 years and I am a member of Hollywood's exclusive (for magicians and their guests only) private club, the Academy of Magical Arts and Sciences, commonly called "The Magic Castle."

Yes, he gives psychological explanations, but that is part of the entertainment value. Because they are psychological and because everyone's psyche is different, those techniques could, on some occasions work, but they are not the methods he uses.

A few years ago there was a third-rate magician in Las Vegas who tried to make a name for himself by exposing tricks on TV as "The Masked Magician." One of the things he claimed was that magicians do levitations by wheeling in a fork lift and using it to lift someone from behind a curtain. Will that work? Absolutely. But I don't know of any professional magicians using that technique. I imagine that there are a few idiot trying to buy fork lifts for their shows.

Similarly, over half a century ago, a book was put out (I think it was by Blackstone) claiming to reveal how hundreds of magic tricks were done. It was a jumble of illustrations and "explanations" all over the pages. And here's the kicker--as I recall, most of them were totally fake. They were complete inventions. Could they work? Maybe. Was anyone using them? No.

And what I am saying is that the same is true of Brown's psychological explanations. Although they might work on occasion, they don't work often enough to be used by performers.

Let me give you an example of a very common "psychological force." Quickly think of a two-digit number between 10 and 99. Both digits should be odd and they should be different digits...
.
.
.
.
.
.
Got it?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Good. Were you thinking of 37?

Now, maybe you were and maybe you were not. For some reason, I don't know why, when you use these instructions the most common response is 37.

If someone prods me into reading their mind, I might use this force. In a crowd of 10 people, at least one person is going to think of that number. So if the person I'm dealing with doesn't think of it I use the out, "Who was thinking of that number? I'm getting it very strongly." Almost always I get somebody thinking of it.

Another illusion I use is called the Tossed Out Deck by David Hoy. In larger performances I take out a deck of cards and throw it out to someone in the audience. Then they give it to someone they don't know. That person looks at one card, then throws it to another person whom they don't know. That new person looks at a card and throws it to another person who looks at a card. So here we have three people who select a card from a deck. None of them know each other. None of them know me. I have them stand and ask them to sit only if I can read their minds and name their card. I then concentrate, and after a few moments name three different cards and all three sit down.

I have absolutely floored people with this effect. People have wanted me to teach them the method for reading minds. Unfortunately, the reality is that it has nothing to do with reading minds. It originally appeared in a booklet entitled "Simplicity, Audacity, and Bluff." The method of doing the effect is incredibly easy (as are most magic effects), but the "selling" of the effect is what takes something obvious and turns it into a miracle.

solaris152000

05-18-2004, 12:37 PM

No- I dont belive you.....

If you are right then that would mean I have wasted a long time in researching and reading about nlp, for you to then say, it is just all some cheap trick.

I personally practise magic but i am more intrested in phycological techniques.

Don

05-18-2004, 02:09 PM

I am not saying "it is all some cheap trick."

I am saying that Deren Brown is a great performer who relies on illusion to achieve his effects.

Magic for entertainment is nothing more than the simulation of various phenomena. That's what he's doing.

Respectfully, there is a difference between using NLP to cause rapid change and doing illusions on a stage.

Unregistered

05-19-2004, 02:23 PM

[QUOTE=newbie32]I had the good fortune of being 'selected' for Derren's new series 'trick of the mind'. /....

thanks for the fascinating insights.Can you offer any details from yet-to -be -broadcast shows to add credibility to your report?

Unregistered

05-19-2004, 06:19 PM

Yes, that would be fascinating. Derren has talked openly about using hypnosis and hypnotic techniques in his shows, and also about using 'suggestible' people who make good subjects for certain routines. All that's fair enough. Nowhere is he saying that he uses 'only mind control' techniques, I don't know what you mean by that. He says it's a fusion of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. Hypnosis is a valid psychological technique as far as I can tell.
My guess, Newbie, is that you went along to a preliminary gathering for him to pick some suggestible people for some routines. You didn't get picked, maybe you weren't that responsive, and you're letting off a lot of steam. Why don't you tell us all what you filmed with him? I have connections to him - I can pass the post on, I'm sure it will reach him and we'll get feedback. Otherwise, it might sound a bit as if you're making this up.
It's very normal in TV to pick responsive people to take part in things. I wouldn't be disappointed at all to find that he might select suggestible types to do some routines with. It's clearly only for some routines, and I think when you watch the show you get a sense of which ones they might be. I think it's an interesting insight into his techniques.
I think you should prove your claim here. Tell us what you filmed with him. It'll be easy enough to find out whether that happened. You seem frustrated, so presumably you'll want to clarify this.
Cheers.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 01:06 AM

To those people who commented on his stage show:

He does use at least one stooge. In the show I went to, I knew that someone who knew him would be in the audience. Sure enough they got called up for a certain part of the show which involves holding a glass. The way she was chosen was with a frisbee, but in that particular part of the show lots of people were chosen and at least 4 frisbees went to the same part of the audience, hence making it pretty likely she'd be chosen. On stage he pretended that he didn't know her.

As for 'guessing a number' and 'guessing a drawing', he doesn't do it by influencing you in any way. Put it this way: he can see what you've written down on his clipboard.

The stage show is heavily scripted and is pretty much fixed to work, because it has to, night after night.

But its still massively entertaining!

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 01:33 AM

[QUOTE=Unregistered]To those people who commented on his stage show:

He does use at least one stooge. In the show I went to, I knew that someone who knew him would be in the audience. Sure enough they got called up for a certain part of the show which involves holding a glass. The way she was chosen was with a frisbee, but in that particular part of the show lots of people were chosen and at least 4 frisbees went to the same part of the audience, hence making it pretty likely she'd be chosen. On stage he pretended that he didn't know her.

QUOTE]

LOL, what rubbish. For starters, my two female work colleagues who I went with were the two people who controlled the glass. Neither of them are stooges, neither do you have to use stooges to achieve the effect. And think about this. Oue venue held 1,200 people. Do you honestly think Derren's that good a frisbee thrower to find his specific stooge out of 1,200 people? Imagine if it failed, and he didn't find his stooge. Then a huge part of his act is in shatters. Believe me, he would never risk that.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 02:12 AM

I'm talking about the Bristol show. The lady who ended up with the glass was someone who makes cufflinks for Derren's costume. At least 4 frisbees were thrown at that area, from (I think) 6 or so volunteers. One volunteer was rejected, so the next one up was... surprise surprise... the person who knows Derren. I know this person knows Derren for a fact. It is not entirely without suspicion, no? :-)

These frisbees are in fact very accurate. I wonder how many frisbees you have to throw towards a certain person to make it extremely likely you'll get that person as one of the volunteers?

How is it possible to move the glass to the 'Y' card without one of the people on the glass moving it in that direction?

I'm not saying that all frisbee selected people are 'stooges'.
What I'm saying is:
a) The person who ended up on stage knew Derren personally.
b) When that person was chosen there were at least 4 frisbees thrown towards her.

This leads me to believe that that person was not chosen by chance.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 02:15 AM

Yeah, to the person who thought he couldn't pick out the stooge in the crowd: the odds are hardly 1200 to 1! If I threw one of those accurate frisbees at an area of the crowd I reckon I could hit a small cluster of stooges fairly often.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 02:24 AM

Newbye 32 the fact that your part is not shown tell me that you are an hoax.You may be right or not but i think you were not filmed and you are just creating it with your fantasy to became more popular here.
goodbye!

ozomada

05-20-2004, 02:49 AM

Yep thats my hand raised.

Firstly i must address, this newbie fellow.

Are you saying that all people used in stage hypnosis shows are stooges !. your logic is flawed on several accounts.

NOT **** he uses hypnosis, last time i checked hypnotic language structures and suggestion were psycological. NLP essentially is based on hypnotic lanquage patterns.

Now before you go and say whats what, which is very incorrect, go and do your research on what hypnosis actually does to your brain.

Derren has never lied. He may misdirect but he does not lie.

He is a performer of mystics, just like all magicians/mentalists.

His EFFECTS can not be pigeon holed, inspiration is drawn from many many backgrounds. including human interation, linquistics, hypnotic language patterns, hypnosis, suggestion, motivation, memory, slieght of hand, card manipulation, "mentalism", trickery.

All this is blended togeather to create an effect. after all every effect relies on the audiences perception, which after all can only be explined by psycology.

in thoughts.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 09:01 AM

I was around after the show in Bristol when the girl who made him the cufflinks went up and spoke to him. He apologised for not recognising her. I spoke to him about it, and he said he had met her twice after shows (when there are hundreds of people around), and that she had made some cufflinks for him. I don't think that qualifies as 'knowing' her. He's met her a couple of times after shows. Perhaps she envisages it to be more of a connection as she's a fan. He said that once she told him her name on stage he knew he knew her but couldn't place her, as Bristol was his home town and he had expected there to be a few people in Bristol that night that he'd recognise.
Seems fair enough to me.
The Ouija board presumably works because people do push it, but not because they're stooges - just because they push it unconsciously. That's kind of well known as a principle.
And that other lady whose 2 friends went up to do it kind of shows that it obviously isn't stooges.
Poor bloke - no-one can explain what he does so they all say it's stooges. I think he's a better thinker than that.

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 10:35 AM

The Ouija board presumably works because people do push it, but not because they're stooges - just because they push it unconsciously. That's kind of well known as a principle.
And that other lady whose 2 friends went up to do it kind of shows that it obviously isn't stooges.
Poor bloke - no-one can explain what he does so they all say it's stooges. I think he's a better thinker than that.

I'm not a lady, I said my two lady friends went up! But you highlight my point, if he didn't use stooges when he did the show I went to, then that means you don't need stooges to do the effect! So why use stooges if you don't need them!

And the guy a few posts above who talks about Derren being able to hit a small cluster of stooges with a frisbee. Yes, well that's a practical solution isn't it. Just bring along a small cluster of stooges for each show. LOL, have a break.

Sponge

05-20-2004, 11:17 AM

His EFFECTS can not be pigeon holed, inspiration is drawn from many many backgrounds. including human interation, linquistics, hypnotic language patterns, hypnosis, suggestion, motivation, memory, slieght of hand, card manipulation, "mentalism", trickery.

ozomada, do you know where to find books on techniques like those? Mainly linquistics, hypnotic language patterns and suggestion? :confused:

Unregistered

05-20-2004, 01:44 PM

the live show uses no stooges and no psychological magic. every single trick is explained, somewhere in the numerous posts on his yahoo group forum. its just magic tricks, i can explain every single one of them.

dadjanda

05-20-2004, 03:10 PM

Hi,

New person to the group and this has got me interested.

Surely any hypnotist of any note would, if using stooges to film a tv show that probably makes him/her a lot of money, ensure that he induces an amnesia in his 'stooges' to ensure that none of the stooges do what Newbie has done and expose the trick.

Surely Derren Brown would not be so arrogant to think that no-one would believe them?

Amnesia through hypnosis is relatively simple and it would be easy enough to have Newbie walking away from the filming of his 'trick' believing he'd turned up at the wrong address and was mistaken that he ever was at Derren Brown's show.

Were you there Newbie...are you sure? What can you really remember! Sorry, only kidding.

Anyway, It seems to me a lot of hassle to go to to make a TV programme when there are people out there that can do this stuff for real. Why go to the bother?

I'm not doubting for a second that some pre-trick trance work and hypnosis goes on, that goes without saying. But all of it...nah, sorry Newbie, you won't convince me.

Have fun believing in nothing...

B

Don

05-20-2004, 03:26 PM

Yes, I realize that there's no need for stooges. But what is really fascinating is watching what is going on, here. But rather than focus on any person's post, I'd like to generalize.

Let's say that John X has come to believe that all apples, when ripe, are red. He lived in an area all his life where all apples are red. Then he moves to a city where there are ripe apples that are yellow or gold or green. But instead of widening his view to accept the new information, he narrows it to deny the new information. Not only will he deny that those other fruits are ripe apples, but he will become defensive. People who are experts in apples will tell him he's wrong, but he will say that they're wrong, too.

This is amazing behavior, but it is certainly not uncommon. So the question is, how do you set up a double bind so that the person will accept the new, accurate information if the elements of double bind are ignored and the person simply repeats his belief system?

solaris152000

05-21-2004, 12:12 AM

I know that if derren used stooges, he would be able to do his tricks easilly. But I have tried the methods he claims to use, and they work(most of the time)!

Anyway if derren does use magic I think I will be happier in my ignorance of that fact.

Unregistered

05-21-2004, 12:51 AM

I'm not a lady, I said my two lady friends went up! But you highlight my point, if he didn't use stooges when he did the show I went to, then that means you don't need stooges to do the effect! So why use stooges if you don't need them!

And the guy a few posts above who talks about Derren being able to hit a small cluster of stooges with a frisbee. Yes, well that's a practical solution isn't it. Just bring along a small cluster of stooges for each show. LOL, have a break.

You sound like a lady to me.

I'm prepared to be convinced that he didn't use a stooge in that section. Nonetheless, all of the tricks are explained in the yahoo group, and sections like the magic square at the end and drawing the picture are just that: tricks. Extremely entertaining, but explainable if you're so inclined to find out how they're done.

Unregistered

05-21-2004, 02:34 AM

Dear oh dear,
What a lot of ill-educated fuss. Derren Brown is a mentalist. His routines use a combination of well-known magic principles, clip-boards, pre-show, gimmicks, gaffs, hypnotic suggestion etc, plus a whole load of showmanship.
He does NOT use any NLP, reading of signals etc. That is his own brand of misdirection.
In a sense he has made a rod for his own back by originally presenting himself as a mind-control expert and being included in the science section of the channel 4 web-site. But he is now clearly presenting his material more in the trick category (hence the title of his new show).
Derren is a marvellous entertainer, I first saw him lecture in 1999 and was immediately aware that I was witnessing the guy who could make mentalism cool. So it has proved, but he seems to have created a certain following who are desperate to be believe in miracles.
I have seen Derren's live show and there was not one single routine that relied on the use of stooges, plants,etc. There was a bit of pre-show but frankly, that is allowed.
His TV show is a different kettle of fish. Let's just say that if a camera filmed the effects from beginning to end we would be rather less impressed.
You are free to believe in NLP and other pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo if you wish but you will have to be content that Derren Brown, magician and mentalist can never be your high priest.

Don

05-21-2004, 09:21 AM

Solaris, you have hit on the EXACT idea of the Brown show. He gives what seems to be a reasonable explanation for how things work. This is a form of "mental misdirection." If a person is thinking that it must be NLP or stooges the person is not seeing the actual method.

Many magicians will secretly hide something in a pocket in full sight of the audience. To do so they need an excuse to put their hand into their pocket. Many will use the silly excuse that they're getting some (invisible) "woofle" dust from their pocket to do the magic.

Trying to find the properties of woofle dust is like trying to find the secret NLP technique or stooge that allows Brown to work his show.

unhypnotizablynot

05-21-2004, 09:51 AM

You are free to believe in NLP and other pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo if you wish but you will have to be content that Derren Brown, magician and mentalist can never be your high priest.

That is unfortunate, as I was hoping Derren Brown would be able to resurrect my dead goldfish......

:(

Unregistered

05-21-2004, 01:37 PM

I just want more info on how to do the things he does WITHOUT!!!!!!! using magic, does anyone else have some good techniques like the one on his channel 4 website.

Unregistered

05-22-2004, 12:51 AM

Derren Brown does use a stooge in his stage show to aceive the seance effect (several girls chosen, one always repaced when it doesn't work) but it is a small part of the effect and that is how he justfies it (can any magicians tell me if it can be achieved withouy a stooge?). Illusionists sometimes uses stooges where the effect makes it worthwhile. I've seen David Buglas use a stooge in one stage effect. Would be different if it was straightforward mindreading with his best friend.

I saw Derren's stage show and it is a very fresh and entertaining take on standard mentalist principles. Do you really think he goes to the time and trouble of memorising a phone book when the same effect can be achieved by trickery?

His TV show does not use stooges. Pre-hypnotised participants don't count (it is still psycological). He does have the benefit of the editing suite.

Upshot is that he is an illussionist who claims no psychic powers and provides good entertinment.

Unregistered

05-22-2004, 10:16 AM

No, Upshot, he doesn't use any stooges in his stage show. At no point are any necessary. I'm a mentalist with many years behind me, and it annoys me when someone as original and downright clever as Derren gets accused of stooges just because no-one can think of any other answer. Not knowing how it's done does not mean stooges. And any decent fellow pro will tell you that none are employed.
There's a huge gulf between you not knowing how an effect is achieved (which, come on, is a good thing, isn't it? Isn't it great to be fooled in this business?) and you stating as fact that 'a stooge is used' as if you know that. That's actually quite an ugly accusation to make without inside knowledge.
Also, think about it... he'd have to take a different stooge with him every night, and risk any one of them talking to the press or revealing their identity. Not worth it, especially when there's not one effect there that necessitates one.
Enjoy not knowing - or if you can't, at least be careful about what statements you make.

Unregistered

05-22-2004, 10:34 AM

I would like to make a few points

1) Darren Brown is a Master NLP practioner and is a tutor. My mother went to a course he co-facilitated.

2) He is a good magician, and manipulator and uses clasic routines used in the magic world for a very long time. He delivers them very well. For example a while back he did a trick with some poker players where he got them to select who got which card. This is a very simple card trick which he performed very well and described as a psycological feat.

3) Magicans lie. All of us. We tell you we are going to discover your card when we already know what it is we get you to take a card and say you have a free choice, we tell you the box is empty. We do it to entertain, i dont get whats wrong with saying we are demonstraing effects of the mind, or presdigition

4) Some of the tricks are science based, some slight of hand, some use psycology, some use where the camera is focused, and yes some use "prepared" people.

5) He is very entertainning!

Working out how to do a trick stops it being fun. Enjoy the mystery!

(tips hat) Master M Hatter, trickster, magican, and cold reader

solaris1520000

05-22-2004, 01:59 PM

His name is derren . How can you know all this if you dont even know his name eh?

Unregistered

05-23-2004, 01:51 AM

How old are you? Also, if the others in this Derren thread would care to post
their ages, it would be interesting.

solaris152000

05-23-2004, 04:35 AM

I am 14, but have studdied NLP as a hobbie for about a year.

Sponge

05-23-2004, 05:21 AM

Im 14 and studdied NLP for about 1 1/2 years

Unregistered

05-23-2004, 12:15 PM

Actually his real name IS Darren.

oZomada

05-23-2004, 06:05 PM

As the ages are posted, the discussion becomes quite obvious.

I as if you read my recent post agree with what i would assume are other magicians on the forum, who have utter respect for great performers.

SPONGE. If you are generally interested in learning some of these principles, like i'm sure ever 14 year old boy is. I suggest you start at the 'magic shop'. Darren is a master. You must start with basic magic principles first, and see how they effect people, then you will discover an incredible world with a never ending road to discovery and learning.

you may start here if you like

www.allmagic.com

a wealth of resource. enjoy.

solaris152000

05-24-2004, 12:16 AM

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad: We(me and spunge) are looking for Real phycholgical techniques, does anyone know any???

Unregistered

05-24-2004, 04:00 AM

post not on topic and deleted.

Unregistered

05-24-2004, 04:14 AM

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad: We(me and spunge) are looking for Real phycholgical techniques, does anyone know any???

Why don't you stop asking for free information that you hope will make you like Derren Brown. If you really want psychlogical principles then go to a damn psychology course and pick up some psychology books. At least you'll learn them properly rather than some vague description from Derren's site or from a message board.

Unregistered

05-24-2004, 09:24 AM

what a load of complete rubbish!!

yes, hypnosis plays a part in derren's act, but a background of being a (durr) PROFESSIONAL MAGICIAN plays a much bigger role - I can absolutely guarantee you that the people invited onto the stage in his recent tour have not been hypnotised before the show

he is a MAGICIAN, not a hypnotist...

besides, if ANY of what you'd written were true, do you not think Derren would use a little more hypnosis - e.g. make you genuinely think you'd never met instead of ask you to pretend, and make you forget how the trick worked so you wouldn't blab it all over a BB like this?

a little more thought next time... :-)

I had the good fortune of being 'selected' for Derren's new series 'trick of the mind'. I spent a day filming with Derren and also had dinner with him. I now know exactly how he does his tricks, and can quite confidently confirm that no mind-reading, NLP or psychology is used. It's all a con.

First off, you must understand that almost EVERY SINGLE PERSON on the show who Derren does a trick on has been pre-selected at a hypnosis audition. Random members of the public are invited by word of mouth to a secret audition, where Derren performs routine hypnosis methods, such as getting people to clasp their hands together real tight till they can't open them, making them imagine walking down and down and down staris while listening to his voice etc etc He basically hypnotises the audience in the traditional way. Obviously not all the audience are hypnotisable, and he gradually selects those who are.
The hypnosis was exactly the same as the two hypnosis shows i've been part of on stage, and also read about in hypnosis books.
Once he had about 10 really hypnotisable people his production company got our details and we all went home. (the london cabbie was at my audition, as well as the 'scared' film student)

On the day of filming Derren hypnotised me again, in private away from the cameras. He told me that when he said X i would do Y. Simple. So, when the cameras started rolling, he did his usual stupid schpeel pretending to influence me by saying 'cryptic' things like 'sometimes you mind does things you don;t know about' and 'i can read from your eyes that you are suggestible'. Of course, I was hypnotised and just had to respond to his X command. Exactly like on the Paul McKenna shows.

The con is that he will never show himself hypnotising people, and just pretends like the 'stooge' is a normal random person. There are three lies here
a) they are a stooge
b) they have been hypnotised off camera
c) no NLP or psychology is used, and whatever he claims he is doing is false.

Needless to say he said X and I did Y. I was truly hypnotised and the 'trick' worked. But of course the audience of the show are made to think that I have been sublimenly influenced by the way he talked to me on camera. NOT TRUE.

Anyway, we spent the day filming, doing the same trick at different locations, each time I had to pretend like I'd just met him.

He then took me and his PA out to dinner, and this is when he told me his secrets. (not all of them of course)

He said to me: 'Don't think that I hypnotised you. I didn't. I used a combination of mind control techinques and was influencing you on an unconscious level. So, don't go round telling people I hypnotised you.'
He said this while looking straight into my eyes. I almost cracked up laughing.
I asked how he felt conning people so badly, to which he replied ' I'm not conning them. I'm entertaining them. I'm making them react by setting up the trick to make it look more powerful than it is. That's what magic is about.'

I got a little angry with him and basically told him that he was a hypnotist. At this point he retaliated by showing me some card tricks. He did that one on his new series that he did with stephen fry. (he has pre-rolled cards in two different cigarette packets in his pocket, and a false deck which only shows eoght cards repeated when viewed from one side, and a whole pack when viewed from the other side)

He then said 'do you think i'm conning you now that you know how that card trick was done?' I said ' no, it's just a card trick, and you siad that it would be just that - a card trick. The con i'm worried about is that you tell your audience rubbish about influencing people and reading body signals and you're not, you're hypnotising them, then lying to the audience'.

needless to say, he wasn't too impressed. He still paid for my dinner.

so, i can now tell you how his other tricks are done:

phonebooth: pre-hypnotised person picks up phone, derren says 'sleep'. person sleeps.

mind-reading for 10p : pre-hypnotised people 'meet', and just say exactly what derren told them to say

london cabbie: pre-hypnotised cabbie 'forgets' where something is, just because he's been told to. NB nothing to do with derren banging on the window or interupting patterns.

invisible man: pre-hypnotised guy actually thinks he can't see derren.NB nothing to do with what derren says to him.

how many fingers?: pre-hypnotised kid pulls out the number of fingers that derren says. NB derren 'guesses' a number, and the kid pulls this same number out of his pockets AFTER derren said the number, because he's been hypnotised to respond to derren's guess.

i could go on, but you get the picture. If you have difficulty understanding how he does future tricks, just think about the fact that derren has simply hypnotised his stooge beforehand, and whatever he says on camera is misleading pyschobabble rubbish designed to get the NLP freaks turned on :)

not all of his tricks are done by hypnosis. the remainign few are simple card tricks and sleight of hand magic. remember, he used to be a sleight of hand magician before. these tricks are very good tricks in their own right, but again derren cons the audience by making them think he's influenced people with his 'mind-control', when really, it's just a simple trick.

i suppose the die-hard fans are saying 'so what? it's still entertaining'. yes, it is entertaining, because derren hypes it up so much more than it deserves, and he covers it with a facade of pyschology which simply isn't true. i don't like being lied to, nor do i like someone making a living out of lying to thousands of people. that's why i'm exposing him.

that said, he is a very nice man, quite witty too. shame about being such a big fake.

(PS: sadly, the trick he did on me is not going to be shown in this series, according to his production company who rang me last week)

Unregistered

05-24-2004, 05:09 PM

Dear All
Just a small point from a professional mentalist to all of you on this forum who believe in derrens abilities as an NLP and 'Mind reading' expert. What derren does is called 'Mentalism' and is NOT REAL NLP OR MIND CONTROL. There I have said it and hopefully some of you can move on. The consultants for the show are Andy Nyman, David Britland and Anthony Owen all MAGICIANS. Its all just a trick, a very clever trick but simply just that. When Uri Gellar said he was Psychic the world believed, he is in fact a Mentalist (simply put a magician whose premise is that the effect is achieved by mind reading) Derren, Banachek, Marc Salem, Max Maven, Andy Nyman, Luke Jermay, Ian Rowland, Bob Cassidy etc etc are all pioneers in the field of mentalism its just that Derren being an excellent performer was in the right place at the right time and hit the big time. Derren (like so many modern mentalists) uses the PREMISE of pychological manipulation simply as a PRESENTATIONAL tool. It is not real, I have met the producers of the show and various people involved in the show and believe me it is clever stuff but not what you think. If you want to learn this stuff then look up mentalism and not NLP and hypnosis as you will really be barking up the wrong tree.

Unregistered

05-25-2004, 03:21 AM

this is my first and maybe only post here.
I'm quite surprised to see that everything has to be black OR white. Many people seem to forget the 256 levels of grey in between.

I think that some tricks that DB perform are really genuine and don't use "subconscient stooge" at all. Because when you're on stage, it's always exciting to have someone you don't know come and participate to your tricks.
As for hypnotism (stage hypnotism), hypnotists are trained to detect the people who will respond in a good way to suggestions and so on. this is quite usual, because no "mentalist" will choose someone who is a real beeeeeep to kill the effect.
But there is no absolute need of pre-show hypnotism.

As for TV shows, do I need to say that there must be NO MISTAKE ?
To ensure that, TV producers sometimes impose that the entertainer hypnotize people before the show.
Not necessarily to make them respond Y to X, but to ensure that they can be hypnotized and that the show WILL work. A bit of a rehearsal, if I may say.
Some entertainers do pre-show hypnotism to check that the "victim" is suggestible. Some entertainers do pre-show hypnotism as a full rehearsal of the show.
But sometimes they are imposed to do so if they want their show to be broadcast.

Again, why should DB be a hypnotist OR a magician ?
Why should his show be con OR true ?

the freesbee exemple lets think that the woman who was chosen knew Derren. But the fact is that even if several freesbee were thrown in her direction, nobody thrown it far away ! Ok, there is no DL, no IT, no TT.and so ? lol
By the way, newbie32, what you tell is quite interesting, but where is the evidence of all that ? the problem (and I have nothing against you, it just shows the celeverness of DB&Co.) is that you would like us to believe what you say, while you claim that people should not believe what DB says ! Tricky...

"How does he do that ?"
Quite well, it seems !

don't wonder, just enjoy !

shokuvo

solaris152000

05-25-2004, 12:12 PM

That is not the aim of this thread!!!! The thread is made for people to share ideas on how to do the things derren does!

Unregistered

05-26-2004, 04:10 AM

That is not the aim of this thread!!!! The thread is made for people to share ideas on how to do the things derren does!

If this is the aim of the thread then it should be deleted as it is extremely disrespectful to Derren. Secrets are not available to minors.

Unregistered

05-26-2004, 06:26 AM

Yes, somehow, I did.
Read again !

"How does he do that ?"

Isn't that great mentalism ? ;)

And I guess it's the only answer we will get b4 long...

As for my opinion, I think it's more gratifying and more exciting to use no stooge, but I also think that Derren's shows are not magic OR hypnosis only. There must be a part of each, and that's why so many people, and so many magicians keep on wondering, and that's why he's so famous.
Doesn't Derren call himself a "psychological entertainer" ?

Shokuvo

Don

05-26-2004, 10:23 AM

Many years ago I gave a performance of a "fake seance." I admitted beforehand that it was fake. It was announced that it was fake. There was no intention to deceive in the sense of having people believe it was real. The deceptions were only the methods used for the expressed purpose of entertainment. Even so, at the end of the show, several people went around the room opening windows to free any spirits who might have been brought there by the rituals.

This is what I find so interesting. People who are experts say "this is the way things are," and the non-experts don't believe the experts and come up with their own explanations.

The professionals who see Derren's shows don't wonder about the nature of what he does. Rather, they enjoy the way he performs and puts his effects across. The amateurs--those who have a bit of knowledge of the subject--try to come up with answers based on their lack of information. (A similar example is the "masked magician" who revealed that the secret of levitation tricks was the use of a fork lift, in spite of the fact that magicians did such tricks long before fork lifts were invented and in situations today where fork lifts could not be used.) And those who have no knowledge of the subject will agree with whatever seems to explain what is going on.

So let me repeat this. Derren's wonderful shows are magic. Pure and simple.
No NLP required.
No hypnosis required.

Yes, he calls himself a "psychological entertainer." But if he called himself the Queen of England, that wouldn't make him so.

solaris152000

05-26-2004, 12:05 PM

Ahhhh, but the things he does could be done through NLP, so give me ways to do what he does using NLP that is what I want to know, yes it is possible because I have done it before usiong suggestion and subliminal messages, though some of it may not beNLP based, then just on phycology.

Don

05-27-2004, 12:22 AM

Think about it, Solaris.
If he could do those things via NLP, why not do them that way?
For the same reason the people who make the most out of "subliminal seduction" techniques are not the people using them, but the ones selling them.

He's using tricks. He's not using NLP. He's not using psychology.

You're believing something that isn't there. Just because the coyote comes back after the anvil falls on him doesn't mean that you can drop an anvil on yourself, shake your head and make a funny sound, and go off and chase the roadrunner.

Unregistered

05-27-2004, 06:25 AM

Don, when I used the term "psychological entertainer", it was because DB uses it himself.and the psychological entertainment may not be on the spectators only, but also on the internet forums, as it's happening her and now ! lol
I could not have put it into better words myself about the people who try (or not) to find how it works. thanks for that.

I think Solaris asked an interesting question that is not "how does DB do his tricks" but "how to do his tricks".
The answer to the first question cannot be given by a wide range of people.Because even if they did, experts as they were, nobody would be forced to believe them ! The only ABSOLUTE answer would be Derren's, wouldn't it ?
The anwser to the second question CAN bring very different answers.The following question would be : would you accept these answers ? Maybe yes, maybe no.

So take a seat, watch and enjoy.things come when we are not expecting them.

Sh.

Unregistered

05-27-2004, 06:26 AM

And psychology is always used, more or less intensively.
But I guess what you mean.It's not psychology ONLY.

Unregistered

05-28-2004, 04:25 PM

Darren Brown, may use hypnosis in some stunts, but alot is NLP, Fast seduction and subliminal messaging.

He has a book out call somthing like 'mind reading, NLP and suggestion;'

He is clever and im sure he uses a hell of alot of differing teqniques for the effects.

Bottom line, he is good with suggestion, body language and all that.

Enjoy it, use it, dont slate it.

( papaunix at hotmail dot com )

Unregistered

05-30-2004, 08:02 AM

I would be very interested to know if any of the people repeatedly saying "there is no NLP or psychology, it's all just magic tricks" have much or indeed any knowledge of NLP. Knowing even the small amount of NLP that I do, I can immediately see how several of his effects have been created, and would not be iterating "it's all stooges and magic tricks" all over this thread.

Please don't dismiss things of which you obviously have no knowledge.

Newbie32, I have to admit your story was well crafted. However, if your tale was anything other than fiction then you would clearly have gone to a newspaper rather than to an internet forum to tell it, as would many of the other people "invited by word of mouth" to a "secret location." Your post read like a bad spy story.

Despite my irate ramblings, many of the posts here and on similar threads on other forums have been intelligent and well thought out. I only wish that intelligent people like yourselves would be more open minded.

Sponge

05-30-2004, 09:09 AM

unregistered said "I would be very interested to know if any of the people repeatedly saying "there is no NLP or psychology, it's all just magic tricks" have much or indeed any knowledge of NLP. Knowing even the small amount of NLP that I do, I can immediately see how several of his effects have been created, and would not be iterating "it's all stooges and magic tricks" all over this thread.",
Can you recommend any where to get information on NLP that could be used for tricks like what derren brown does?
(no one reply saying its all magic tricks/stooges and whatever.)

Unregistered

05-30-2004, 02:01 PM

So if its all magic tricks, how did Derren convince med students to feel pain. Then later anesthetize his hand enough for him not to feel a needle enter. Unless they were blatently lying or drugged in some way. How can it be anything other than psycholgical.

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 12:12 AM

Wow - you folks are certainly getting worked up over what in the end is only semantics. But of course, that is a key concern of NLP, isn't it?

How's this for a summary: magician in question may use persuasion techniques that have also found their way into the "canon" of NLP practitioners (if there is such a thing), but these are in service to the underlying mechanism of his illusions, which is standard mentalist fare. No? Perhaps he is a better entertainer because of his understanding of rapport and word cadence, etc, but his "tricks" would be no less convincing without.

The fellow I think should be roundly roasted at every opportunity is John Edwards, mentalist-cum-medium. He may very well believe he is operating his show on good faith "of course they realize it's a trick".. but I can guarantee that many in his audience and viewers of his television show utterly believe he's talking to dead people.

Frankly, it'd be entertaining to hear a mentalist give a critique of his technique. He definitely falls into the Uri Geller fraud camp, though.

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 12:21 AM

By the way, those deeply engaged in this conversation may find the following link interesting:

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~roy/magictalk-wisdom/discussions/mentalists_identity.html

It's a discussion by a group of magicians about how to present themselves to an audience in their roles as "magician", "mentalist" and "mental magician". Germaine, I believe.

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 01:12 AM

Hi....bit of a shock to stumble onto a forum and find you are part of the topic of conversation! I don't know if I can prove who I am by saying this but on stage in Bristol I wore black jumper and trousers and my name begins with H. If you were there then I hope that sorts it out for you. I am me!
I would like very much to put a few things straight.

1. Yes I made some cufflinks for Derren (long-distance as a gift for part of my own PR stuff) and like what he does but I do not and would never claim to know him. We had met once before the Bristol show and there is no connection between us at all. Some of you guys probably know him better than I do.

2. Derren could not have known I was there. The tickets were a present and not booked in my name. I don't live in Bristol. I had also had a fairly drastic haircut since our first meeting.

3. As regards my area of the audience being peppered with frisbee-fire...I only ended up with the frisbee at all because all the girlies around me got squeamish and threw it at me. I got it from about 3 rows back.

4. He didn't apologise for not recognising me. There was no reason he should have.

I am not a stooge and I don't believe that Derren needs to use them in the blatant ways outlined on this thread. The part of the show I was involved in was a magic trick.....There was no pre-arrangement. I would have demanded cash. :D
I don't know why he uses some people and not others. I think the pre-conditioning/hypnosis/susceptibility check thing is something he just has to do or be seen to do to make his act more interesting.
Whether he's planting ideas in your head or not, he wants to make sure that he doesn't end up "doing an effect" on someone who is going to make him look a prat.
I hope this all helps in your search for the truth....
hx (aka Cufflink-making-stooge-lady) x x x

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 07:50 AM

Sponge,

NLP itself is not specifically concerned with the types of effects you'll see on Derren's shows. The bulk of NLP was developed by watching successful psychotherapists work then breaking apart and formalising their methods, so that the techniques involved could be understood by and taught to others.

Nevertheless, some parts of NLP will be of interest to you. A good grasp of these concepts and techniques will help you understand a fair bit of what's going on:

analogue marking and embedded commands
representational systems and submodalities
anchors
rapport
presuppositions

There is other stuff he does that is not NLP to my knowledge:

distraction
inducing confusion
All the lie detection stuff and also the "think of a number from 1-6, count from 1 to 6" type trick

Other than that, learning more NLP will only do you good, as even though not all of it is on this topic the greater the understanding you have of the mind the more it will help you figure out what's going on. Oh, and read up about the different types of brain waves (alpha, beta, theta and delta) because its interesting because it links in with hypnosis, suggestability and altered states.

That's about all that comes to mind at the moment. I should probably write a website one of these days explaining all of the above, but I'm feeling too lazy at the moment.

Happy reading!

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 11:15 AM

Hi, my name is Dave and i am Derrens tour manager. Oh if you want my age as well, its 34.
So now ive given my name, age, occupation and if you need more i live in Middlesex.
after doing nearly 100 shows with Derren...FREELANCE i may add, so not contracted to Derren, i can put this matter of STOOGES to sleep.
Quite simple really.........NONE ARE USED.
AND AS FOR DERREN BEING ABLE TO PICK ONE PERSON OUT WITH THE FRISBEE AS ITS (AND I QUOTE) EASY TO THROW TO A PERSON......well mabey he should give up showbiz and take it up as a sport as he would be the best in the world at it. Derren is and he admits it hopeless at sport and if you would have deen the number of nights on the tour that it flew into the aisle or clattered into the lighting rig you would realise that your statements are a load of rubbish.
Hope this helps you!!!!!!!!
Dave Russell.

Unregistered

05-31-2004, 04:13 PM

Surely hes not stupid enough to hypnotise his victims and allow them to blab about all of what has gone on otherwise he would have been exposed before now?

RoobyandZeto

05-31-2004, 11:41 PM

I've appeared at many live shows, not only Derren Brown's and let's just say the best audience members are those who 'want to believe' and for some of the tricks like guessing etc, well some folk really want to get involved in the show...good object/subliminal setup is present at these shows.

Similarly, a lot of the stuff on the tv show...forget hypnosis which should be renamed 'play-along with me'...most of it is a case of nobodies getting a chance to appear on tv, or be the centre of attention at a show and playing along with Derren's amazing entertainment skills ;)

Unregistered

06-01-2004, 09:15 AM

ive been practising hypnosis for a few months now, with ormond mcgill encyclpedia of hypno.... all i can get to is getting my brother to raise his arm up to his head, but cant do anymore whatever i say from then on does s##t. any help would be nice!

solaris152000

06-01-2004, 12:32 PM

Dude this is in the completely wrong sub-forum

Unregistered

06-01-2004, 03:16 PM

right, but you'll tell me some speel...

Danek

06-02-2004, 07:29 AM

Can you recommend any where to get information on NLP that could be used for tricks like what derren brown does?
(no one reply saying its all magic tricks/stooges and whatever.)
Hi Sponge,

I'm a lecturer in cognitive psychology, and also have an interest in mentalism. I think Derren Brown is a superb entertainer, but unless I've missed something, then the cool jedi-style stuff that he does really are all tricks - none of it uses psychology in any causal way. He uses NLP and talk about psychology AFTER the event, to dress the tricks up as non-tricks. And he's so good at it, a lot of people just refuse to believe it, which to me is as amazing as any of the other things he's done.

If you want to do the cool stuff he does, you won't need NLP - it's just window dressing, and really doesn't make people act in the way that Derren Brown makes it seem. But if you're interested in the role of suggestion in magic-style tricks, then books by Luke Jermay or Kenton Knepper might be a much better place to start than NLP. They'll still need loads of practice, and they will never be 100% successful, but they are perhaps the closest to what I think you're looking for - which is using words in a creative way to influence people. Another fascinating book is Ormond McGill's Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism.

BTW, there are clearly plenty of people on here who know far more than me about mentalism, so if I'm talking through my hat, please do correct me.

Don

06-02-2004, 09:22 AM

Now you're giving away MY secrets!
;-)

Unregistered

06-02-2004, 09:31 AM

right, so there!

Unregistered

06-02-2004, 09:49 AM

i just watched seance and noticed a lot of tricks. The choosing of a face was obviously forced and the people behaved like they were hypnotised. It was like a paul mckenna show!!!

Unregistered

06-02-2004, 12:14 PM

But the point of the seance was that it was done through trickery dressed up in places with his brand of pseudo-psychology; IIRC he said at the end that forcing the viewer to pick Jane was a simple trick (although I think the 10 out of the 12 students that picked her independently did so without any kind of instruction -- at least, that's how it was shown).

Gandalf

06-03-2004, 03:13 AM

I've only stumbled on this thread because I wanted to understand whether the séance that derren did on tv the other night was a conjuroring trick or some kind of psychology. It seems it was a mixture of all skills known to man.

having participated in many Ouji boards when I was younger I often wonder how they worked (I don't believe in spirits). But, they did work. We communicated with "personalities" which we must have created subconsciously as a group. But how? Pretty amazing really! And I know that no one present was cheating. Can anyone tell me?

Another thing. And it's probably a bit off topic, but if Derren was doing what he does 2000 years ago they would be seen as miracles. And rather than say he was a mind reader, he'd probably say he was the son of God..... And that would clear the matter up and no one would question it. Aprt from the Romans perhaps!

.... oh, and I'm just coming up to my 2513th birthday if that’s relevant. But I have the mental age of 35.

Gandalf the Grey

akirrane

06-03-2004, 05:09 AM

Post is responding to newbie32,

<Edited for content>

What you wrote is obviously complete fabrication. Lets take a look at some of the <Edited> things you stated.

I had the good fortune of being 'selected' for Derren's new series 'trick of the mind'. I spent a day filming with Derren and also had dinner with him. I now know exactly how he does his tricks, and can quite confidently confirm that no mind-reading, NLP or psychology is used. It's all a con.

Yeah right, course you did! You must know everything there is to know about Mind-Reading, NLP and psychology to be able to determine that none was used. Otherwise one would just be a <Personal Attack Edited> to make such an assertion. It could never be that another human might know something that you have no comprehension of.

Then you went on to embellish <Personal attack Edited> further by stating...

Obviously not all the audience are hypnotisable, and he gradually selects those who are.

What exactly is hypnotisable. Hypnosis is simply inducing a state that naturally occurs in all human beings. Elementary theory really newbie32. <Personal Attack Edited>

Then you said:

Of course, I was hypnotised and just had to respond to his X command. Exactly like on the Paul McKenna shows.

Then you made another laymen error while crafting your bull**** by falling foul of the popular misconception that Hypnosis is a force to control a persons will. Nonsense, again quite elementary but nonetheless needs reiterating. Hypnosis, if anything, aids in the focusing of ones own will and gives a recipient a little extra help. It does not make you walk around hands outstretched saying 'I must give you all my money'. I am surprised you did not claim that he hypnotised you with a fob watch. At the end of your post you express a sentiment of utter disdain at the treatment you received. If somebody tried to make you do something that was totally against your own sensibilities and moral code then they would fail. Hypnosis just does not work that way. So to say that you were hypnotised and just had to respond is poppy****!

Then you stated:

The con is that he will never show himself hypnotising people, and just pretends like the 'stooge' is a normal random person. There are three lies here
a) they are a stooge
b) they have been hypnotised off camera
c) no NLP or psychology is used, and whatever he claims he is doing is false.

There is only one lie here and that is your complete story!

Then you said somewhere in the middle of a sentence of crap...

I was truly hypnotised and the 'trick' worked.

Truly Deluded that a message board frequented by people who study at all levels of expertise and interest in human behaviour and the way the mind works should be taken in by your rubbish.

Then rather comically you said..

i don't like being lied to, nor do i like someone making a living out of lying to thousands of people. that's why i'm exposing him.

That's Rich! or do you prefer to be known as <Edited>!

Then ..

(PS: sadly, the trick he did on me is not going to be shown in this series, according to his production company who rang me last week)

Yeah right!

So my motivation for such a forthright reply. Well simple really. I rarely post comments on message boards. My opinions are changeable in the light of new evidence. Something I think now I may not think in five years time (Your story is obviously excluded from that rule) When I am preparing to interview candidates one of the things I do is to search Google for their name. It's interesting to sometimes find comments and things written by the potential candidate before they ever thought about asking for a job from me. That said I had to reply to your post. This board is viewed by people who really want to understand more about human behaviour. Posts like yours could be read by somebody trying to get a handle on whether or not they should invest their time in learning any of this NLP stuff. Your post could well put them off. It's okay for somebody to lose interest in a subject when the facts don't please them but it is a shame if the facts they learnt were baseless lies. <Edited>. But I have and quite frankly I have now got bored with this post so I have forgotten some of the other things I was going to say. So go get a second and third identity and post some replies supporting your initial post. Don't give up I am sure there are some people who believe you.

<Edited parting slur, and a rather good one at that :)>

solaris152000

06-03-2004, 08:00 AM

Thank you that is exactly what needed to be said. Thank you For telling newbie32 what we all think of his lies. Ive had enough of people saying that derren brown uses stooges and actors. I have tried the theories of how his tricks work, the methods ARE phycological, just this morning I managed to "force" a card onto someone with an imaginary deck, I used anchoring and hidden messages in my voice, and the subject was amazed.

So lets stop this thread now as it is to old. Let the educated among us agree that maybe derren does use stooges, but he could (and most probably does) use phycology blended with an intresting form of magic, to create a truly unique form of mentalism. So Skip please dont tell me how his phycological explanations are just masking his magic and sleight of hand, because he claims to use phycology and magic. And his methods when put into practice work.

This form of mentallism amzes the audience as they can't just say that the deck was "gimmicked if the deck was in there mind".

If anyone has any further information on how to do the things derren brown does USING NLP and such, then please post it in the emmbeded commands suggestion thread Spunge has made.

Thanks
Solaris

Unregistered

06-03-2004, 06:01 PM

On his part of the Channel 4 web-site, Derren Brown provides a few "explanations" of some of the segments featured in his "Trick Of The Mind" show. Here's some of what he says about those that feature people answering the ringing payphone:

"(...)First, the group of people subjected to the stunt are particularly suggestible. I know this simply because they chose to answer a public phone that happened to be ringing as they walked past. Most people would ignore it, assuming it was nothing to do with them.
Secondly, once the person answers, I immediately bombard them with a rapid set of confusing instructions and facts. I do this for several minutes without giving give them a break, then follow it by telling them to fall asleep. As seen on the shows, this works.
Public speakers often capitalise on the same response. Have you ever listened to a politician giving rapid-fire statistics so fast that the audience can't possibly take them in, only to end the speech with a simple, memorable phrase? The soundbite comes as such a relief after all those facts and figures that this is all the listeners remember."

Glossing over the contentiousness of the claim that by dint of answering a randomly ringing payphone a person would necessarily mark themselves out as suggestible, I'm most puzzled by claims made in the second and third paragraphs.

DB claims to “bombard” the “answerer” for several minutes, but in all of the clips I’ve seen, the person answering slides down into “sleep” a matter of SECONDS after picking up the receiver. The footage appears to run in real time – the movement of passers-by around the person answering flows without jumps or cuts (see again the clip of the girl in the woolly hat answering the phone at Baker Street Tube; people pass in front of her in a steady flow for the duration of the segment).

Secondly, while I’ve heard it claimed that people will sometimes instantaneously act on a coherent command issued after they have become distracted, flustered or misdirected in some way, as I understand it, these are people would first have to truly feel themselves to be trapped in a situation (e.g. entrenched before a hostile audience during a live debate), with no obvious means of release or escape. They would grasp a quick-fire suggestion to “sleep” or whatever, because it offers them instant release from a growing sense of -seemingly otherwise inescapable- anxiety.

I don’t see how people answering a ringing payphone, in a quiet-ish road, or corridor, with a gentle and intermittent flow of activity around them (one or two of the calls in the “telephone” series take place in the evening, with very obviously low levels of surrounding noise and bustle) could feel “trapped” enough in these types of surroundings, or confused enough in the short 10 seconds (max) that the call seems to last, that their “crank-call” reflex would fail to trigger (i.e. they simply hang up the phone, or let the receiver dangle and quietly saunter off). They simply have too many more expedient “escape-hatches” available to them for collapsing alseep in public to seem their best option (again, the calls last SECONDS, not minutes).

Without wanting to fan the flames, these people really do give every impression of acting on a (post) hypnotic trigger (either being told to “sleep” by the caller after they’ve said “Hello?” or being conditioned to simply slump with closing eyes almost the moment they answer, without the need for the command “sleep” to be issued down the other end of the line. Maybe the very word “Hello?” is the planted suggestion trigger, so in effect they trigger themselves (I’ve tried shoving my TV volume up several notches to try and hear some sound coming through the receiver after they’ve said “Hello?” but I can’t make out anything).

Methinks DB is feeding his viewers a line, not just his telephone operator somnambulists. Even if he does use hypnosis, the clips still have real curiosity value. Why is he so at pains to avoid admitting he uses it?

IKBF2004

06-03-2004, 06:09 PM

After submitting the reply above i registered. I'm called IKBF2004 (if you need a name and a face before you you reply!!).

danek

06-04-2004, 02:02 AM

I'd agree with this take entirely. The explanation he gives is in NO WAY enough to make people slump to the ground instantaneously. The worst it would do would be to make people a bit stressed and puzzled, and then they'd just hang up (and that's quite apart from the fact that these people fall over far too fast for DB's "explanation" to possibly be true).

It looks like post-hypnotic suggestion to me.

Unregistered

06-04-2004, 10:53 AM

Has anyone cosndiered the possibility that the reason they didn't use Newbie's trick is because it was a hypnotised backup, and Derren prefers to use genuine tricks? Once he got enough successful non-hypnotised tricks, he cut out the hypnotised ones. Perhaps.

Also, referring abck to page 2, I notcied the capitalised Gs straight away, and also when someone tried to guess a number, they used the word "to" three times, and twice it wasn't entirely necessary.

I guess I wouldn't be a good subject for subliminal persuasion?

Unregistered

06-04-2004, 11:02 AM

As for the sleeping, my suspicion is that Derren's speech is pre-recorded and sped up so that it can be subconsciously heard and udnerstood but NOT consciously, so that a minute of confusing commands and facts is condensed to a few seconds, icnreasing the imapct. I would then imagine him slowly saying 'sleeeeep', and the desired effect being achieved. Maybe this only works in 1 in 10 attempts, and those would be the ones they show on TV.

I'm no expert at all, but that would be my interpretation. He says several minutes, it is OBVIOUSLY only seconds and he is not stupid, he knows we can see that - so I think it is sped up. Surely that is subliminal messaging? Like when one frame in a film is a picture of popcorn and suddenly everone gets up and buys popcorn but they're not sure why?

Unregistered

06-04-2004, 11:03 AM

Unregistered

06-04-2004, 09:38 PM

I'm wondering about the trick in the mall where people raise their hands into the air was accomplished. If it were a trick, they'd all have to be stooges. I don't buy that because it'd be too risky to use that many stooges. Because of this, I am prepared to accept that an NLP/hypnotic technique was used, but if anyone can challenge this and give a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

cbc

06-05-2004, 02:45 AM

Surely the main thing about all of this is not whether Derren uses hypnosis of not, but that TV is inherently limited as a place to showcase magic. Frankly, if Channel 4 wanted to, they could have hired in a male model and shown him doing just the same effects with camera trickery - they don't need a magician at all.

solaris152000

06-05-2004, 03:07 AM

Right to prove he does not use stooges, or at least doesnt need to I will explain any trick he does, using phycological methods. Okay?

Unregistered

06-05-2004, 03:37 AM

Right to prove he does not use stooges, or at least doesnt need to I will explain any trick he does, using phycological methods. Okay?

Yes, please do!!!

solaris152000

06-05-2004, 11:59 AM

Well then please say a trick and I will reveal.

Bill

06-05-2004, 01:14 PM

after reading newbies post Im now a sceptic of Brown. If you can tell me how he does the trick where he stops the woman in the street, without hypnotising before the programme, I will concede that he is worthy of praise

Sponge

06-05-2004, 01:35 PM

he might have known she was the only person the woman would pick (she had a bright red hat on/the only person on the street) and DB might have said beforehand something like, "have a great shopping day" which might sound like, "have a grate stopping day" so she stopped next to a grate or whatever it was.

if that was the case i wouldnt count the trick as cheating, she wouldnt be a stooge if she didnt know she was.

Unregistered

06-05-2004, 02:17 PM

If you can tell me how he does the trick where he stops the woman in the street, without hypnotising before the programme, I will concede that he is worthy of praise

There's a guy in the window on the floor below them. He can hear what Derren and his 'assistant' are saying via a mike placed in the room they are in.

When she says stop, he leans out of the window and goes "Oi! You in the stupid hat!", then ducks out of sight. When the woman is asked afterwards, she's too embarrased to tell the camera crew that she thought she heard someone calling her names, but couldn't see them - so makes up some BS excuse about forgetting something.

No hypnosis involved.

Unregistered

06-05-2004, 03:19 PM

Dear All
I posted the following earlier and i wondered if it actually sunk in.

Dear All
Just a small point from a professional mentalist to all of you on this forum who believe in derrens abilities as an NLP and 'Mind reading' expert. What derren does is called 'Mentalism' and is NOT REAL NLP OR MIND CONTROL. There I have said it and hopefully some of you can move on. The consultants for the show are Andy Nyman, David Britland and Anthony Owen all MAGICIANS. Its all just a trick, a very clever trick but simply just that. When Uri Gellar said he was Psychic the world believed, he is in fact a Mentalist (simply put a magician whose premise is that the effect is achieved by mind reading) Derren, Banachek, Marc Salem, Max Maven, Andy Nyman, Luke Jermay, Ian Rowland, Bob Cassidy etc etc are all pioneers in the field of mentalism its just that Derren being an excellent performer was in the right place at the right time and hit the big time. Derren (like so many modern mentalists) uses the PREMISE of pychological manipulation simply as a PRESENTATIONAL tool. It is not real, I have met the producers of the show and various people involved in the show and believe me it is clever stuff but not what you think. If you want to learn this stuff then look up mentalism and not NLP and hypnosis as you will really be barking up the wrong tree.

OK so how does he do this stuff, let me give you some examples:-

1. OK the boxing ring scene where he 'convinces the boxer he is to weak to lift the woman' the woman is a STOOGE the effect is written up in the book about 'Lulu Hurst' and dates back to the 1800s the position of her hands on the person lifting her dictates if he can lift her or not.

2. Coin in hand routine - The coin is switched for a gimmicked coin which has a large power magnet built into it, derren can work out which hand it is in because of this. How you ask! well WATCH closely.

3. Needle through subjects hand - Ok simply do exactly what DB did on the show and you feel NO pain its simply that by stretching the skin at the start it numbs the area and as you are using a surgical needle you will not feel it going through.

4. Spectator raises his hand at exact time that derren raises his or a spectator standing behind him even though there eyes are shut. - OK this is a
'dual reality' effect as popularised by Kenton Knepper. the subject is being 'cued' by derren to raise there arm buy him putting pressure on there foot by standing on it!!! but to the audience who can't see this it looks amazing.

5. Derren is able to tell people details about there favorite toys, their relatives etc etc without them saying anything - OK this is known as 'pre-show work' and involves asking the spectators before the performance to write these details down usually on a clip board. the device is gimmicked and DB can then read the details they wrote from the clipboard which usually has carbon paper inside it. During the 'Mind Control' series these boards were handed out at the various student unions by the TV researchers who had no problem asking people to fill the forms in to see if they were suitable for the show!!

6. Object under one of 5 glasses - camera man signals to DB which cup it is under - next!

7. Twin feels tap on shoulder that is given to twin in other room and also lap dancer feels three taps on hand when none seems to happen - OK this IS a modified version of Banacheks effect called 'PK touches' it is a TRICK

8. spectator acts as medium and spouts lots of info about dead person and this happens to be written down. - Ok this effect as used on SEANCE and in his stage show is based on the effect called 'Confabulation' the subject spouts whatever enters there head this is written on the paper by a STOOGE of stage or of camera and is SWITCHED for the paper that has apparently been in full view.

9. Twin draws a doodle on page with eyes shut and it matches another persons picture or verbal description - OK this is called 'Reminisce' by DB and is just a TRICK

10. DB is able to say which hand the spectator is holding over his own through two holes in a board - OK DB is again being cued by the crew as to which hand is which

11. OK the biggy how does derren hold a gun to his head and not kill himself -
OK THINK about this one would you risk your life on your ability to work out which number a person hesitated on? NO neither would I the effect is an elaborate CON the person picked was a MAGICIAN and is well known at magic conventions the elimination process was COBBLERS as the person was prepped to know how to go through all of the stages.

12. Spectators SEE a fork bending by staring into the tines of the fork even though to us nothing is happening - OK clever use of wording, the spectators were asked to stare THROUGH the tines od the fork at a fork on the TABLE that bends of its own accord the fork ont he table is a very expensive dealer item that bends without being touched we think its the fork in their hand not the one on the table.

OK I could go on for hours but I think you all get the point.

DB DOES use STOOGES but they are generally either production crew members or camera and sound men. SUGGESTION is used NOT HYPNOSIS, DUAL REALITY and various other Mentalist techniques. Mentalism is NOT about sleight of hand but rather very clever use of PYCHOLOGICAL MISCONCEPTIONS because what we THINK is happening often ISNT. Also extensive use of EDITING is used as we often don't see the whole effect being performed only PART of it usually the second half we see. Well you are probably wondereing how I know all of this well two things ONE I perform this stuff professionally and TWO I have INSIDE informatio which I am not at liberty to divulge but trust me DB uses NLP and PYCHOLOGY as only verbal DRESSING for what are extrmely clever TRICKS!!!!!!!!!

Unregistered

06-05-2004, 05:52 PM

If all this were true, then don't you think that the media would have a field day? Also, as for "newbie32" - did Derren take the other 59 stooges to dinner too? Sounds like that taking on stooges for the show costs more than £40 each, and wastes a lot of his time!

snakeyes

06-05-2004, 06:17 PM

why do you guys bother arguing with these people who are simply unable to enjoy being entertained by someone elses skill. It's not like they're gonna consider your reasoned views and change their minds. getting off on conflict is bad I think........

Unregistered

06-07-2004, 01:07 PM

The needle through the hand trick.
Just by pulling the skin stops the bleeding and pain all together? What about the toothache ? That would either have to be more stooges or suggestion.

Unregistered

06-08-2004, 04:06 AM

I have tried the theories of how his tricks work, the methods ARE phycological, just this morning I managed to "force" a card onto someone with an imaginary deck, I used anchoring and hidden messages in my voice, and the subject was amazed.

If anyone has any further information on how to do the things derren brown does USING NLP and such, then please post it in the emmbeded commands suggestion thread Spunge has made.

There is a web site which lists loads of books and other web sites connected with everything that DB does at www.rmjs.co.uk/db I'm now waiting for McGill's book on stage hypnotism to arrive...

Unregistered

06-08-2004, 05:57 AM

At the end of the day, Dunninger's quote still stands firm on this post:

For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice.

Unregistered

06-08-2004, 07:31 AM

Dear "Solaris"

phycology - The branch of botany that deals with seaweeds and other algae.
Doubt whether Derren Brown is into that stuff.

The word you are looking for is psychological

solaris152000

06-08-2004, 08:23 AM

Yes I apologize for my spelling mistakes Im still at school you know!!

Unregistered

06-09-2004, 04:43 PM

Well Guys you all cheered me up, as a professional pychological performer it heartens me to know that even when the evidence of how it is all done is put to you many of you simply 'believe' fantastic! hence the reason I do this for a living. The list I mentioned earlier of 10 effects of Derren Brown are in reality THE FACTS and do you want to know why? Because this material is available in underground mentalist circles such as the PEA (the psychic entertainers association) and is very expensive and very exclusive. Also the three consultants for the show are Andy Nyman, David Britland and Phil Goldstein who are all MAGICIANS funny that they would need magicians if he used NLP or Psychology?. Go back, watch the programs again and check the CREDITS then check the people on the credits if you don't believe me. As regards the comment regarding the needle through hand well trust me the squeezing of the skin is enough to stop the pain and if anyone with an ounce of knowledge about anatomy would tell you the epidermis is thick enough to not bleed if pierced in this way. And If you want to know why the media don't know about this, well its simple. The effects when performed are very difficult to figure out unless you are a professional mentalist like myself. The production crew wont be telling as the company behind the show OBJECTIVE PRODUCTIONS make ALL of the magic programs on british TV. Its in there best interests to keep stum. Whatever you all want to believe is cool but trust me if DB or any other mentalist could use NLP etc to do this then trust me they will have achieved more than any single pychotherapist in living history hmmmm. I think me and DB will stick to trickery its easier. Let me also say that before DB got his Channel 4 contract he had already PUBLISHED THE COMPLETE WORKINGS OF VARIOUS 'NLP' TRICKS to the mentalist and magicians community as I was already in the game I was lucky enough to buy the document before it was taken of the market due to his contractual obligations with Channel 4 as some of these effects were used in the original Mind Control series. If anybody on this forum really wants to do this stuff then let me know as I can put you in the right direction regarding where to REALLY look for this stuff but be warned an effect can sell for hundreds of pounds simply for the secret. Mentalism doesn't come cheap!!!

Danek

06-10-2004, 02:19 AM

Let me also say that before DB got his Channel 4 contract he had already PUBLISHED THE COMPLETE WORKINGS OF VARIOUS 'NLP' TRICKS to the mentalist and magicians community as I was already in the game I was lucky enough to buy the document before it was taken of the market due to his contractual obligations with Channel 4 as some of these effects were used in the original Mind Control series. If anybody on this forum really wants to do this stuff then let me know as I can put you in the right direction regarding where to REALLY look for this stuff but be warned an effect can sell for hundreds of pounds simply for the secret. Mentalism doesn't come cheap!!!

Was this in the early edition of Pure Effect, or was it something else he published?

Unregistered

06-10-2004, 09:03 AM

how does he do that invisible trick? (where he walks out of the room and then back in wearing a long jacket and a hat and the guy can't see him when he takes them off)

Unregistered

06-10-2004, 02:42 PM

how does he do that invisible trick? (where he walks out of the room and then back in wearing a long jacket and a hat and the guy can't see him when he takes them off)

Hypnosis - it's a standard routine but presented Derren-style

Unregistered

06-10-2004, 03:24 PM

I posted earlier regarding giving indications of where to REALLY look for this stuff and also posted a list of 10 effects from the Mind Control show and there methodology. Well Hypnosis is used (as in the invisible man routine which is quite old and has been used by stage hypnotists since the 30's) as well as 'SUGGESTION' OK check out the following for references :-Steve Banachek, Kenton Knepper and also fellow mentalist who I conversed with Luke Jermay. For references to DB stuff try and get hold of the PAPERBACK FIRST EDITION of 'PURE EFFECT' and read the following :- TA Waters, Corinda, Anneman, Richard Busch, Lee Earle, Andy Nyman, Ted Lesley, Barrie Richardson, Al Mann, Burling Hull, Phil Goldstein, etc. MOST of what DB does is in these peoples books so dig deep. As regards ELECTRONIC DEVICES which SORRY to tell you DB DOES USE check out Fabrice Delaire who manufactures electronic coding devices. DB used one of these devices on the stage show to transmit what was drawn on a notepad. Also check out various duplication devices including the 'Kopy Kat' he also uses a magnetic POUND COIN for the 'Coin in hand' routine and this is triggered by a gimmicked watch which tells him which hand the coin is in. Like I said before I could go giving you the methodology of DB for HOURS so LOOK in the RIGHT places and use NLP and PSYCHOLOGY for its correct use and not to replicate DB as sorry guys it JUST WILL NOT WORK AS WELL AS WHAT HE REALLY DOES!!! - The professional mentalist signs off now for good have fun guys!!

Unregistered

06-12-2004, 01:31 AM

This has been a really interesting thread. I saw Derren's show at the Palace theatre last week and really loved it. I did get the sense that it was all trickery though, and so began looking on the internet. A couple of sites you may find interesting:

Magic Week interview with Derren, where his use of hypnosis is discussed:

http://www.magicweek.co.uk then select 'Magic Profile' on the right tool bar, then select 'Derren Brown'. Really interesting 'insiders' interview.

Also, take a look at http://www.fabricedelaure.com/

A good number of Derren's stage routines can be explained by devices purchased from this web site - including the phone book, all of the guess what you've drawn/written routines.

If anything, discovering these things has only made me enjoy Derrens work even more. He is obviously an extremely accomplished showman. The card trick with Stephen Fry, this is a trick deck called 'Generation X', but Derren executed it superbly well. I've watched it over and over again, and even though I know how it's done, it still amazes me how well Derren performed it.

Don

06-12-2004, 11:01 AM

Hi, Unregistered.

When a person who is not a magician sees a magic show, he or she can appreciate it for all the wonderful wizardry and illusions. Some remain puzzled by the effects and wrack their brains trying to figure the tricks out, often coming up with conclusions that are far from accurate.

When magicians view a well-performed magic show, they often know most or all of the effects. They appreciate good performance, timing, execution, stage presence, etc. It is a different type of appreciation, but it is still an appreciation.

You are clearly looking at this from a magician's point of view. Enjoy!

toodle

06-15-2004, 06:42 PM

Well Guys you all cheered me up, as a professional pychological performer it heartens me to know that even when the evidence of how it is all done is put to you many of you simply 'believe' fantastic! hence the reason I do this for a living. The list I mentioned earlier of 10 effects of Derren Brown are in reality THE FACTS and do you want to know why? Because this material is available in underground mentalist circles such as the PEA (the psychic entertainers association) and is very expensive and very exclusive. The effects when performed are very difficult to figure out unless you are a professional mentalist like myself.

The production crew wont be telling as the company behind the show OBJECTIVE PRODUCTIONS make ALL of the magic programs on british TV. Its in there best interests to keep stum.

If anybody on this forum really wants to do this stuff then let me know as I can put you in the right direction regarding where to REALLY look for this stuff but be warned an effect can sell for hundreds of pounds simply for the secret. Mentalism doesn't come cheap!!!

A few points I wish to make:
1. If you are a 'Professional' then surely professionals do not reveal secrets - if you do it for a living, surely you dont want more competition. Wouldn't the PEA be pissed off with you for revealing all this information? (that is of course if you are a member in the first place)

2. Objective Productions make:
"Bedsitcom" (2003) TV Series
"Derren Brown: Trick of the Mind" (2004) TV Series
"Peep Show" (2003) TV Series
Bob Monkhouse's Comedy Heroes (2004) (TV)
Derren Brown Plays Russian Roulette Live (2003) (TV)
Derren Brown: Séance (2004) (TV)

3. If anyone wants to do what Derren does, I suggest that you do not ask 'Unregistered', just go out to a library and borrow a few books on the subject.

solaris152000

06-16-2004, 10:27 AM

I currently own own all the libary books on NLP...lol

RussWilde

06-16-2004, 12:32 PM

Wow, massively involved comments here, and some interesting points raised.

I don't want to get caught up in the "everyone who doesn't believe is a liar" vs. "everyone who believes is completely stupid". After all, how many of us actually want to crucify him if we're found to be wrong / right.

The points I want to make are:
As people have already argued; most of the effects are possible and CAN be accomplished through NLP.

also I want to second, third or otherwise enforce the idea, that it is true, hypnotism can't force you to work against your own free will, but a crowd of expectant people staring at you might do the trick, as is sometimes the case with stage hypnosis as well.

Derren Brown IS a hypnotist and doesn't refute it. I recently listened to a radio interview he gave where he recounts his interest in hypnotism and mentalism growing from seeing a stage hypnotist while at university.
This prompted him to learn it himself, he also started studying psychology and all the assorted gubbins as well, as he, like many of us here, had and presumably HAS a genuine interest in the way people think and operate consciously and subconsciously.

The confusion techniques indicated are also noted in Luke Jermay's book "Building Blocks", although he is not the originator of it either. Luke applies it to make people forget their names.

Mentalism is, in itself a pigeonhole for "thinking magic" because mentalists prefer not to associate it directly with the "tricky" sleight of hand methods.

The number force posted was interesting if slightly unstructured, some kind of decision needed to be made to eliminate similes of the number 7 (Hence people selecting the number 6 after they were told to "make it hard for me" the number three in the preamble was not as well disguised as it could have been. I only mention it to help develop and not to criticise. I often test the 1-50 number force methods on another forum. ;)

I’d also like to say that the confusion Derren claims, In a quote posted, does seem to be accurate, there is a known “confusion technique” as a fast hypnotic induction described in the works of Milton H. Erickson, who I’m sure we all know.
I believe Erickson performed an induction by NOT shaking a mans hand, when the man expected this to be his next action and instead tying his shoelaces. This induced a state of confusion such as to leave the man standing with his arm out for a couple of minutes, after which Erickson then gave the direct instruction to go and sit on a chair and slip into a deep trance.
I daresay something similar could be happening with the phone-booth effect.

Movements on weejee (can’t spell that one) boards are long known to be the result of the conscious or subconscious movement of the participants. A good demonstration of this would be to tie two, different length, pendulums to a stick and, while holding only the stick, focus all your energy on ONE of them, this pendulum will eventually swing, then focus instead on the other and the swinging pendulum will stop as the other begins to swing.

Notice also the subconscious implications of Derrens changing participants in the séance board effect when it doesn’t quite work..? by doing this he’s implying that he’s not satisfied with the result so they had better change what they are doing. If they don’t pick this up consciously then all the better for Derren. I won’t refute he MAY have hypnotised people before hand, I wont refute that this May be the workings of some of his effects. But consider that the level of influence of everything we say and do is far greater than we imagine, only 10% of inter-human communications are through speech, NLP demonstrates many tools for communicating idea’s in a number of ways, Kenton Kneppers’ treatise on Suggestion lends itself nicely as an explanation for some of this work as well. Shall we just say that if you could harness every possible combination of these communication principles, including NLP, Post Hyp, Suggestion and all the re-braded similes out there, y9ou could – if you were so inclined – produce similar results.

But lets look at this the other way; The true brilliance behind Derren’s work is his own unique styling of his work, most – if not all- the effects – while drawing on other effects of magic mentalism etc, are unique creations. I only wish I had half the creativity at my disposal, as would have been required to create just one of those effects.

I’d like to applaud the people referencing the pro.’s; Steve Banachek, Kenton Knepper, et al.

Finally I have to agree that anyone who was involved in creating such a show would most likely NOT attempt to create a fictional revelation on the web in a forum with a bunch of made-up facts. Sorry, that’s turning into one of those <personal attacks> isn’t it?

I shall stop now.

Thanks for an interesting read.

Unregistered

06-17-2004, 01:15 PM

I've had my eye on this thread for a while. It's certainly interesting. I just thought i'd chuck in my thoughts. Nothing too controversial. :)

Derren claims that his work is a mixture of magic and psychology, and i believe that's what it is: i'm prepared to accept that counting cards (blackjack), pick-pocketing, cold-reading and leaving wallets on Regent's street don't require any hidden trick.

Also, when he's at the Oxford ball (clip available on the channel four website, http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/video/index.html) he seems to be planting some ideas (eg. big wheel, little wheel). Electronic clipboards don't explain why he can drop these hints before the victim has drawn anything. Of course, these hints could be generic enough to describe anything, and enough to keep anyone who cares to investigate at bay.

But then, the butcher, baker and candlestick maker trick: i can't help but wonder why the toy box had to remain in its assigned place, especially since its assigned place put the victims' backs to the dolls house whilst they were picking out toys...

This thread kinda shows what i like about the guy. He's definately fun to watch. He lies often, but such is the point! When he went out cold reading peoples' occupations, he claimed on the show that he was deducing it, not by vague guesses and feedback, but by looking at how they dress and move (well, technically, it may be how they move...).

Con or not, staring straight ahead for a minute with a gun in his hand was one sterling piece of TV.

Finally, when he says psychology, i don't think his psychology is exclusively aimed at the victim, i think plenty is also going to the viewer at home.

Unregistered

06-20-2004, 03:07 PM

A few points I wish to make:
1. If you are a 'Professional' then surely professionals do not reveal secrets - if you do it for a living, surely you dont want more competition. Wouldn't the PEA be pissed off with you for revealing all this information? (that is of course if you are a member in the first place)

2. Objective Productions make:
"Bedsitcom" (2003) TV Series
"Derren Brown: Trick of the Mind" (2004) TV Series
"Peep Show" (2003) TV Series
Bob Monkhouse's Comedy Heroes (2004) (TV)
Derren Brown Plays Russian Roulette Live (2003) (TV)
Derren Brown: Séance (2004) (TV)

3. If anyone wants to do what Derren does, I suggest that you do not ask 'Unregistered', just go out to a library and borrow a few books on the subject.

Dear Toodle

Hey I hope I haven't offended you, I simply was fed up listening to people bang on about NLP and pychology and Hypnosis when that ISN'T what DB is doing he is using this as a credible hook to get people to 'believe' what he does isn't just a 'trick', as regards your points let me reiterate some.

Point 1:
Yes I am a professional but I not giving away 'secrets' If you read my posts I am not going into detail as to how things are done I am explaing the 'general'
theory behind each effect. the specifics are up to each individual to figure out and source. I even mention that several of these effects are written up by DB in his original 'pure effect' and I hope people will BUY and read this book. i want people to PAY there way into doing mentalism by buying the books and videos from the professional performers and mentalists that I BOUGHT from. I am certainly not trying to 'give' away secrets as I mentioned in my posts these effects (in their complete detail, not in the BASIC form I mentioned) our expensive. I just want people to look into the correct areas instead of wasting there money plowing money into NLP and psychology books which WILL NOT help them do what DB does.

Point 2:
Yes thay make those programs but funny how you failed to mention the following?:-

SECRETS OF MAGIC 2003 - A seriously terrible show REVEALING the secrets of several magic effects. The PRODUCERS and TECHNICAL advisors of this show were

ALL KICKED OUT OF THE MAGIC CIRCLE FOR EXPOSURE

Psychic Secrets Revealed - which funnily enough exposed TONS of working performers material on mentalism under the pathetic guise of 'protecting' the public. hmmm funny how they never revealed any of DBs material but were quite happy to 'expose' Uri Gellar and other 'psychics'

Ummm sorry, what was that you said about professionals not 'giving away secrets', strange that you FAILED TO MENTION the above programmes, so in answer to your thoughts of why would a professional give away secrets then why dont you write to OBJECTIVE PRODUCTIONS and ask them why they felt they could give away MENTALISM and MAGIC secrets to MILLIONS of UK viewers. hence the reason i am not particularly bothered about 'revealing some of the production crews secrets as I have Zero respect for OBJECTIVE PRODUCTIONS and neither do a lot of my fellow Mentalists. And In case you are wondering DB was involved in 'exposing' some of the secrets as well.

As regards the PEA well many members have left because of the PEAs insistence that what we present should be seen as 'psychic' not 'Psychological Illusions' and in my opinion this is RELIGIOUS FRAUD and is very damaging to the general public.

Competition? interesting question as there are less than a hundred performing 'Mentalists' in the world as opposed to 'thousands' of magicians so I am less than worried about competition. Many 'mentalists' like myself encourage new blood to get into this as some amazing new ideas spring from new blood, such as Luke Jermays outstanding work in the area of 'suggestion'. Being an Elitist is for those who are less than confident in their abilities and is not condusive to breeding creativity.

Please DONT take offense from my posts I am trying to help people who are taking a genuine interest in DBs work, I worked as a magician for a while and if someone took a genuine interest in magic I felt it was better I point them in the right direction and tell them where to BUY a book on the subject from a reputable magic dealer.

As regards looking in your local Library, well best of luck mate, this sounds like a great way to WASTE a few hours of your time. What possible books could there be on to help? last time I looked in the local library I don't remember seeing any books by

Kenton Knepper, Luke Jermay, Richard Busch, Al Mann, Lee Earle, T. A. Waters, Bob Cassidy, Brad Hendersen, Ken Weber, Ormand Mcgill, Chuck Hickock, Annemann, Corinda, Andy Nyman, Barrie Richardson, Derren Brown, Burling Hull, Banachek, Basil Horwitz, Phil Goldstein, Richard Mark plus many other contrbutors to the world of Mentalism I failed to mention (please BUY any of these peoples works as they are the true path to Doing DBs work)

Damn I did it again giving away SECRETS, how I knew the previous lists of names without being a professional i have NO idea.( I must be Psychic!!) Anyway I have no intention now of giving any further references and info as I must have offended you so I apologise for that. (isn't it terrible to think that some people on this list might ACTUALLY pay the real brains behind this stuff some cash instead of a pathetic conman intent on selling you are twenty five part audio volume on NLP that probably wont help you do this stuff?)

I find it amusing that DB himself in his book 'ABSOLUTE MAGIC' states that NLP is nothing that a confident and charming man doesn't already do naturally and learning NLP is actually a waste of money!!! (hey! look this up if you don't believe me)

So hey, isn't NLP and HYPNOSIS great as you can do ALL of these amazing things DB does using JUST THOSE THINGS ONLY...... huh!!!!!!! (Funny how living a lie doesn't seem as HONEST does it???????)

Sorry to all on this board for being HONEST and UPFRONT about how this stuff is done so lets all go back to believing in DBs amazing abilities in NLP and This will stop offending people like Toodle. Oh sorry had to mention this but Santa Clause doesn't exist. Damn.... sorry Couldn't help myself!!!!!!!!!!!

Don

06-20-2004, 07:44 PM

i want people to PAY there way into doing mentalism by buying the books and videos from the professional performers and mentalists that I BOUGHT from. I am certainly not trying to 'give' away secrets as I mentioned in my posts these effects (in their complete detail, not in the BASIC form I mentioned) our expensive. I just want people to look into the correct areas instead of wasting there money plowing money into NLP and psychology books which WILL NOT help them do what DB does.

I happen to agree with most of what you posted (I won't get into the religio-political argument re: the PEA). However, I would respectfully disagree with the implication you give in your quote above.

People can buy all of the books and videos they want. They can learn every mental effect ever created. But when they get up on stage to perform (or around a table), all they will be doing is tricks.

If a guy gets up in an evening jacket a produces some pigeons out of a box, he's doing a trick. Everyone knows it. The truely exception magicians today, such as Jeff McBride, have a persona which transcends that of a teen who bought a square circle, a zombie, a couple of silks, and a die tube. IMO, for a person to be a mentalist, he or she must also present some sort of mentalist persona. In other words, to be a mentalist (as opposed to being a guy who does mental tricks), he or she begins with the acting skills and talent that only the finest of wizards with boxes or finger flingers possess. If you have ever spent a few hours in a magic shop (and from your post, I'm sure you have), you've probably seen some people with incredible sleight-of-hand skills. Chances are, however, that you'll never hear of most of them on a professional level because they have neither the acting skills, creativity, or stick-to-it-iveness required to become a well-known magician or a basic mentalist.

Brown uses the facade of NLP, hypnosis, etc. to produce a unique persona. And as seen by the number of people who can't seem to get it--it's a trick...no hypnosis or NLP necessary--he does this very well, indeed.

solaris152000

06-21-2004, 12:17 AM

No NLP is needed to do derren's tricks, but you CAN do it through NLP and such which I find a lot more satisfying that pulling a rabbit out of a gimmecked hat.

Unregistered

06-24-2004, 06:04 PM

ok i did kinda miss some of the last posts but i did read the long 1 bout all the hipnotisum n lieing n stuff,, y was u the only 1 take 4 diner,, plz tell me y U wer so special,, i int being nasty i jus realy want 2 know (p.s. the weel comment is right but he int lieing it realy does make a mental ancor that means the caddi realy does 4get,, well atleast the way he explains it is right n it does work lol,, ive tryed it n it does,, moast of the time lol)

Unregistered

06-24-2004, 06:06 PM

lol soz bout all the mistakes in my last post but i was tird,, **cabbi** and **taken**

solaris152000

06-25-2004, 08:38 AM

Did you even type that in English??

Unregistered

06-25-2004, 10:51 AM

lol shutup,, ok all im trying 2 say is that jus mayB ppl (that people 4 u stupider PPL) hu say that he uses stuges r jus realy realy jelous. n neways even if he does, its good entertainment,, so stop complaining n thinking that every thing is a conspirisy,, or get a gf or a life woteva is easyist :P

Unregistered

06-25-2004, 10:53 AM

and from wot u sat solaris its tru it is needes n it int all a setup (well i dont fink so,, mayB im jus nieve n want 2 b in my own lil world)

j0hnny#

06-25-2004, 12:25 PM

Dude, you have been texting too much... unless you have a realy sh1t keyboard there is no reason for you to spell so bad....:)

solaris152000

06-25-2004, 01:09 PM

Sorry but.. WHAT THE **** ARE YOU SAYING????? Please speak in english.

Anyway isn't the great thing about derren that he can do that without having to resort to gimmicked cards and hidden infra red cameras and all that. So I started this thread asking for information on how and where to learn the stuff that he does.

Unregistered

06-25-2004, 04:37 PM

dude soz and yea it is the keyboard,, and 2 lear sum of it go 2 his website in the chanel4 website

not 2 hard 2 find but quite kool

thats the best i can say bout learnin,, soz

Persuasion Skills

06-26-2004, 10:15 AM

Hi

I train people in Covert Persuasion

I am also an Amateur Mentalist.

Derren does use NLP and Hypnosis, e.g.

Rapid Inductions
Embeded Commands
Pattern Interupts

He also use "Instant Stooges" where the participant doesn't realise they are a stooge!

He is also a skilled magician

He use all of thes skills to create an effect!

Regards

Marc
http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/
July Newsletter - Do You Want To Understand Hypnotic Language Patterns?

Don

06-26-2004, 10:30 AM

Respectfully, professional mentalists disagree with you. However, he certainly does give the appearance of using those things, doesn't he?

Persuasion Skills

06-26-2004, 10:37 AM

Respectfully, professional mentalists disagree with you. However, he certainly does give the appearance of using those things, doesn't he?
Hi Don

I'm under no i'llusion that he is'nt primarily a magician, but having met Derren studying his shows, both live and recorded, and copying some of his effects some of them are NLP and Hypnosis!

Regards

Marc
http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/
July Newsletter - Do You Want To Understand Hypnotic Language Patterns?

solaris152000

06-26-2004, 03:33 PM

Don just because he could be using magic for all his tricks doesn't mean he does.

Don

06-26-2004, 04:16 PM

You're correct, Solaris.

I just checked in with the Magic Castle here in Hollywood to find out when I first became a member. It was over 30 years ago. And to become a "regular" member then (now called a "magician" member), you had to perform before some of the top magicians available. That means I was studying and practicing for a long time before that.

One of the problems with "debunkers" such as the Amazing Randi is that they don't understand the simple truth that you wrote. They believe that if they can duplicate something using a trick it necessarily means that the person they are debunking is also using a trick. Obviously, merely because the effect is the same does not mean that the methods are the same.

In the case of DB, he uses effects that are sold on the market as tricks. He also has created and sold some of his tricks. He has published books with his tricks in them. My experience as a magician specializing in mentalism for decades lets me observe and realize that he is doing tricks.

You are correct in saying that just because a person could be using magic tricks for what he does doesn't mean that he is. However, in the case of DB, he is.

Respectfully, I and other professionals have repeated this to you several times. One person gave the basic concepts and even named some of the effects DB uses and that a person could buy or what books you can find them in. It seems as if you have put yourself into a trance--you really want to believe that what DB does involves hypnosis and NLP. No matter what anyone tells you, while in your trance you seem to want to believe it.

That's not a problem. You can believe all you like. It's one of the reasons that an entertainer like DB can be on TV and give successful shows.

But you're looking for his secrets in the wrong area. You won't find it in NLP. You won't find it in hypnosis. You'll find it in magic stores. You'll find it on magic-oriented web sites. I've given you URLs for both as have others.

This is not a magic site. And as much fun as this has been observing the behavior of someone who really wants to believe in something that isn't there, it's time to look in new directions.

If you want to discuss hypnotherapy or NLP, please continue to post here. If you want to discuss magic tricks, please find an appropriate venue for your interest. There are many. Further requests for such magic tricks just don't belong on our site.

Unregistered

06-27-2004, 12:57 PM

at the beginning of derrens shows he does state that he uses magic as part of his routine, and the tricks where magic is used as opposed to psychological trickery is blatantly obvious but i dont think that takes anything away from him, he's is an entertainer and a skilled one at that. The entertainment is in the skill regardless of what technique he uses.

Also i dont think there is anything fake about screening his participants in the hope of finding psychologicaly vunerable people, who wants to watch a show where his tricks sometimes work? I think its reasonable to expect any magicians tricks to be less than 100% effective

The fact remains that his techniques do work on some people, even if its just 1 person in 100 to be able to change peoples minds the way he does is still every bit a interesting as it working on every random person he meets.

ok my rant over, to my question, have any of you guys out there managed to replicate any of his effects using purely psychological skills NLP etc? No tv show no stooges just you using these skills with your friends etc? is it possible?

thanks

solaris152000

06-28-2004, 09:52 AM

I WANT TO DISCUSS HOW TO DO TRICKS USING NLP!!!AHHHHHHHHH:mad: .

Why is it so hard when I ask you just tell me that Derren isn't real, I dont care. I want to be able to do the stuff Deren does Using NLP.

thanks
solaris

Glenn

06-29-2004, 10:07 AM

Sorry to inturrupt folks.
What does NLP stand for?
What is pattern inturrupt and where can i read more about it?

I have Pure Effect by DB and a dvd.

I like the effect when i guy is asked on the tube what stop he's getting off at then Db waves his hand about says a few seemingly simple sentences and the person has totally forgotten where their getting off at.

With a gentle tap on the head they remember.

I was impressed as im fasinated with how the mind works and with magic.

Im not convinced its a hoax so what else is it?

solaris152000

06-29-2004, 11:35 AM

As don would say no you are wrong Deren uses a magic trick for that.

That is the sort of stuff I have been asking to know about for ages. I think you will have have to study alot of NLP to grasp what derren is doing.

NLP= Neuro Linguistic programming.... Its the forums name..

Glenn

06-29-2004, 12:31 PM

LOL
I realised what NLP means as soon as i posted the message.
Silly mean.

IM in no rush an doing lots of reading and studying if fine with me.

Bye.

KusaCubari

06-29-2004, 06:15 PM

Pe--oPLE

what an intense few hours Ive just spent reading the where4's and whathows of DB originally portrayed magical experience,... whatever... quality nevertheleSS

for the NLP (or is it NLDeception?) --- there is a possibility to use it in magic, at many levels,... the "coin is hand trick" is there for those[s that[s know[s the[s answer[s...(tho not to get teacher to sell ya his green little ones! - so quite lookin for the worldbeater, it aint there )...

basically read the start of this thread, and you will get the complete answers from DON's first few posts, regarding NLP and the like,... material is our there, as there is plenty of misleading and well represented babble... magnetism to make people look round @ ya.. indeed! please...

all I can say is Im no pro, Ive just been reading and learnin NLP and other pyscho tech's, but they aint too far outside reality, so do go looking for miracles,...

the previous thread regarding rapport, anchoring and all the subs is where ya need to be lookin...

man what a heavy yet mad thread...

when my heads stopped spinning ill post tomoz...
done well DB

KusaCubari

06-29-2004, 06:17 PM

repeaT...so dont go looking for miracles,...

Bitterangel

07-08-2004, 06:05 PM

In the show i saw last nite, DB got a lady to look out the window at someone walking down the street and force them to stop by closing her fist. The woman on the street had her back to the window. The first woman then told her to turn round, which she did. Her response at being asked why she did this was that she felt she had forgotten something.

I have been thinking about this.

Previously, Derren asked the woman to walk to the end of the room with her back to him. He closed his fist as she was halfway across (still not looking at him) and she stopped and could not move.

Unlike other tricks of his, these phenomena are completely impossible.

In the first instance, it is JUST possible that rather than making the woman stop, Derren had somehow enabled his subject to predict when someone would turn round of their own accord, because they HAD in fact forgotten something; but this is so improbable as to be ridiculous.

The second instance is impossible.

Either DB is using stooges or he possesses abilities not known to science. Even if he used stooges, how would the woman on the street know when to stop and turn round? A pager dialed by one of the crew? (Though I wasn't entirely convinced by her when interviewed)

I would be grateful if somebody could suggest another explanation of how a person at the top of a building looking through glass at someone on ground level with their back turned could in any way influence their behaviour without cheating or telepathy?

Bitterangel

07-08-2004, 06:07 PM

sorry I forgot to add, when the woman on the street turned round, she looked up and right at the woman in the building

I MEAN WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?????

Don

07-08-2004, 11:22 PM

What's going on is that you were fooled by a good entertainer who makes you think that there are only certain possible explanations although there are others which, due to your lack of training, you don't know.

RussWilde

07-09-2004, 01:26 AM

Studying NLP, Hypnosis, Suggestion, Magic and Film (Yes all at once). I can say that Derren is an excellent performer and he sells his "psychological phenomenon" style of presenting very well.

However the other week I saw him take an undertaker into a crypt and ask him to sort some photo's of people into two pile "peaple you like" and "people you don't like". I know I'm over-simplifying here. But, when the guy had finished, Derren turned over the cards and eveyone in the "like" pile had ALIVE written on the back of their photo in black ink and everyone in the "don't like" pile had DEAD written on the back in red ink.

A mental 'living and dead' test we call it and it was very impressive, depite the, sometimes suspicious, cuts and camera angles. Then in Derrens closing remarks - The only part of his performance I find weak - he said;

"Thank you, that was..... out of this world."

And I fell on the floor laughing.
Anyone who has previousley done any kind of card-magic (as Derren used to do - and very very well I might add) will tell you what Out Of This World is all about.

Since then I've been re-reading my books and laughing more.

[B]What's that got to do with topping women on the street or in an empty room?

Well, lets just say, there are a LOT of ways this could be accomplished and I'm sure that an accomplished performer like Derren Brown will be very aware of them all.

RussWilde

07-09-2004, 01:27 AM

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to say 'Topping', she went home alive and well, believe me. Just another of my skillfully placed typo's.

RW

Tomo

07-09-2004, 03:34 AM

I was woundering if their was someone in the UK who has knowledge on NLP. I would like to know your opinions on derren brown,is he really a phycology expert or is he a magician.

And could you please give me some advice on how to perform the stunts that he does. Ie: A person walked past a phone booth,a blue light flashed, and it started to ring. So he picked it up and said hello; then fell to the floor and looked really deppressed, then a red light was flashed, and he got up looking really confused.

Sounds like a posthypnotic suggestion to me.

Where I disagree with his methods is when he lies. He doesn't have to explain how he does things, it spoils the trick, but he shouldn't say he's doing one thing and actually do another. That would make him no better than the "psychics" he ridicules, wouldn't it?

Bitterangel

07-09-2004, 06:45 AM

Tomo

07-09-2004, 07:35 AM

Fair enough, I'm untrained; but I don't think you were paying attention to what actually happened.

A girl in a window closes her fist thus compelling a woman several stories down and a few hundred yards away to stop walking. She can't have heard any sound. She can't have seen the girls fist 'cos her back was turned.

This surely is either accomplished by using a covert signal to the woman on the street who is in on the act.

Or the girl in the window somehow predicted that the woman would stop of her own accord.

Or DERREN IS A WITCH...

Seriously, there is no logical way that a signal could be given soundlessly, sightlessly, without using touch or smell; in fact, without sensory input. I am guessing that the woman in the street was an accompliss of Derrens because she didn't come across as too convincing in the interview. Or maybe something about her manner suggested to the girl in the window that she would stop, though this does not explain why she looked straight up at the girl.

I cannot, however well trained, manipulate the actions of someone in australia without being in contact with them; over the phone, for instance (I am in england). What I have described is essentially the same phenomena. Everthing else I have seen Derren do strikes me as explainable; but altering behaviour without any sensory link is impossible under current scientific limits of the physical universe.
I saw this happen on last night's show. Notice how the woman had to tell him and the camera crew which person she'd chosen. Notice also how the first girl coming towards us didn't stop. She then had to tell him she'd chosen the second girl. On command she stopped. She knew where to look. Doubts were raised in my mind.

Ever seen programmes where a team of experts is in a van watching a hidden camera and microphone hidden in clothing when someone goes into a situation so that they can tell them what to do. Have you SEEN the size of the wireless earpiece they use. Did you notice that the unconvincing girl who stopped had a beanie hat pulled over her ears.

When challenged as to why she stopped, she looked over the camera's right shoulder. When the second position was shown, there was nothing there but a wall where she'd been looking. Now, up and to the left would be an eye access queue for a memory in a right-handed person. As she was lying, her memory came from her imagination, so she's probably left-handed.

Eye access queues are reliable in my experience. I do a party trick of guessing which handed people are by asking them to recall memories while I "access their minds". It's a total hoot!

Don

07-09-2004, 10:13 AM

Fair enough, I'm untrained; but I don't think you were paying attention to what actually happened.

Seriously, there is no logical way....

What you mean is that there is no logical way you are aware of.

One of my favorite effects is this. I put a rubber band around a deck of cards and throw it out to a person in the audience whom I say I don't know and the person in the audience agrees with me on this. This person looks at one card in the deck.

The person throws the deck to another person who neither the first person nor I know. The second person looks at a card. This is repeated with a third person. Another person collects the deck and puts it away. I never touch it.

I have them stand and ask them to sit only if I can name their card. I name three cards and they all sit down.

So "logically," the ONLY way this could be done is if the three people are stooges or I secretly hypnotized them to forget ever meeting me and even though they had a choice of 52 cards, they each would remember selecting a predetermined one when I gave them some sort of signal.

That's not how it's done.

Merely because a person doesn't understand magic tricks does not mean that a person has to be using NLP, hypnosis, or stooges.

I can hold the four aces in my hand, face down. I twist them horizontally and one flips over. Twist them again and that ace goes face down and a different one flips over. I can do this four times, each time with a different ace flipping over. At the end I give out the four cards I used. Hypnosis? NLP? Nope. Just magic tricks.

I take a queen and a king from a deck, showing both sides of the two cards. I fold them in half, one the short way, the other the long way. I slip the one folded the long way between the halves of the one folded the short way so that the long one is half covered by the other card. As I push it through, the card changes from face in to face out.

I open up both cards showing that the change is complete. I fold them again and push the card through the other way. The card changes from face out to face in. I open up both cards showing that the change is complete.

I push it through again, stopping mid-way, so one part of the card is face in while the other is face out. I tear through the cards and lift up the shielding sections. The card that had been changing is seen to be in two pieces, one face out and the other face in. Everything can be examined.

How do I do it? Hypnosis? NLP? They couldn't be fake cards because everything is shown and shown and they are handed out at the end.

It's just a trick. That's the idea of magic. You may think you know how it's done, or perhaps you think there are only a couple of possibilities, but the entertainer works with principles or techniques you don't know.

When I was very young, watching magic shows was very frustrating to me. I didn't know how things were done so I would have to invent bizarre theories about them.

Respectfully, that's what you're doing. You don't know how it is done and you're coming up with ideas that things can only be done using the techniques you're familiar with, otherwise the performer must be a Witch!!!!

Instead of staying frustrated, I started to investigate magic. I've performed before thousands of people. That's one possibility for dealing with the frustration you feel at not knowing how it's done.

Or, you could stay frustrated and look for solutions within your limited framework of possibilities. If you do that you'll keep coming to this and other formums and never be satisfied because the answers aren't here. The answers are found with magicians, not hypnotherapists, not NLP practitioners.

Or, you could simply enjoy the show!

The choice is up to you.

Don

07-09-2004, 10:20 AM

Where I disagree with his methods is when he lies.

Brown is an ENTERTAINER. He follows a script. It may be extemporaneous, but it follows a script.

You can "disagree with his methods" because he "lies," if you will, but remember, he is an ENTERTAINER. He is playing the role of a person with these powers. He is an actor.

Do you "disagree" with Tobey McGuire's methods when, in a movie, he says that he is Spider Man? If not, why? Because you know it's a movie? If Brown could really do the things he portrays, do you think he'd be doing TV shows for a living?

Think again.

Bitterangel

07-09-2004, 11:51 AM

With all due respect, the tricks you describe are not quite the same.

You are in control at all times, you have the cards in your hand & they are your decks of cards, suggestive psychology etc - I don't know how you did those tricks but they do not strike me as impossble, having had a few card tricks explained to me. Magic tricks do not fascinate me any more than people from a technically developed country who might make a living through predicting solar eclipses in order to scare less enlightened people into thinking that they can blot out the light of the sun (A technicolor yankee in king arthurs court).

What fascinates me is how a girl in a window could make a woman on the street below (whose back is turned) stop walking and turn round...

The fact she was wearing a beanie hat does seem to suggest she was a stooge with an earpiece.

If not, this is impossible. Again I repeat, this is the same concept as me causing a guy in another country to stop what he is doing. In both cases there is no sensory link between the two people. Without sensory or sixth sensory means, you simply cant affect someones actions.

If you can think of any case where actions of another can be affected by a person without a sensory link between them, I will stand corrected.

Don

07-09-2004, 01:33 PM

Respectfully, while some cards I do have in my hand, one trick I described I throw out the deck of cards and never touch it or see it throughout the rest of the performance. Even so, I name the cards selected. It works every time. There is NO psychology, NLP, hypnosis, etc., used in the effect.

The ONLY difference is that I told you it is a trick. Brown isn't. Because I told you in advance that it was a trick, you're looking for solutions from your knowledge set. Unless you are trained in magic, chances are good that you won't know how any of the things I described are done.

But because I said it was a trick, you put the methodology in one box. Because you think the Brown isn't using a magic trick, you are using a different box for his methodology.

How about this: I give a 300+ page book and a playing card to a person and walk across the room. They look through the book and see that it is a normal novel and, in fact, can show it to everyone in the audience. They close the book and insert the playing card (or any card they have on them) someplace in the book. Let's say it's page 126.

They then go down to line 12 and over to word on that line. If they had been on page 132 they would look at the second word on line 13. Instantly, without knowing the page number, I tell them the word.

Even if I knew the page number, I'd have to memorize over 300 words and associate them with the right page. Do you really think I would waste my time doing that? Or perhaps I hypnotized the person into seeing a word even if it wasn't there. Or maybe the person was a stooge. Or maybe I used NLP to convince the person to pick a particular page.

No to all of those. The method is much simpler. It sounds impossible but is easy to do.

I realize you want to believe that Brown is using lots of hypnosis and NLP and psychology. He's not. You may choose to say that his methods couldn't possibly be in the same box as the guy in the funny suit who made the coin disappear. That is your reality. It just isn't real.

Tomo

07-09-2004, 02:09 PM

Terry

07-09-2004, 03:32 PM

I am sick of hearing about this person who is NOT mainly a hypnotist, but is in fact a trickster, manipulator, and probably a very good businessman, but I repeat, he is not a hypnotist, and this board is dedicated to hypnosis..... For far too long we have endured these questions, and stories about if he can do this, or if it is a trick etc. Go see the bloody show and make up your own mind, but leave the rest of us alone. Terry

Unregistered

07-10-2004, 02:10 PM

He said to me: 'Don't think that I hypnotised you. I didn't. I used a combination of mind control techinques and was influencing you on an unconscious level. So, don't go round telling people I hypnotised you.'
He said this while looking straight into my eyes. I almost cracked up laughing.
I asked how he felt conning people so badly, to which he replied ' I'm not conning them. I'm entertaining them. I'm making them react by setting up the trick to make it look more powerful than it is. That's what magic is about.'

Wow you can remember every word he said. What a good memory. Almost too good...

He then said 'do you think i'm conning you now that you know how that card trick was done?' I said ' no, it's just a card trick, and you siad that it would be just that - a card trick. The con i'm worried about is that you tell your audience rubbish about influencing people and reading body signals and you're not, you're hypnotising them, then lying to the audience'.

Tip-when making up stories, try not to make the language so 'wooden'.

needless to say, he wasn't too impressed. He still paid for my dinner.

The guy has better things to do than take random people out for dinner and tell them how to do his tricks. WHY would he tell people all this? Derren Brown is trying to make a living out of all this, he doesn't want copycats on his trail.

so, i can now tell you how his other tricks are done:

phonebooth: pre-hypnotised person picks up phone, derren says 'sleep'. person sleeps.

Derren's website (the Channel4 one) gives a perfectly probale solution, that is used by many other people, including, as he mentions, politicans! It doesn't work on all people, but a select few.

london cabbie: pre-hypnotised cabbie 'forgets' where something is, just because he's been told to. NB nothing to do with derren banging on the window or interupting patterns.

Again, please see channel4's website.

i could go on...

Yes, lying seems so natural to you.

i don't like being lied to

ditto.

(PS: sadly, the trick he did on me is not going to be shown in this series, according to his production company who rang me last week)

so you can't actually prove anything then? no wonder you didn't leave any contact details, you'd be lucky if you weren't done for libel. this is the problem with the internet, people can tell thousands of lies, at others' expense, and then scarper. there are so many problems with your accusations in said post, I can't be bothered to waste any more of my time with it (at least for tonight).

Unregistered

07-12-2004, 10:47 AM

In Derren Browns - Make a girl stop trick

The first part was simple mind control (sugestion), when the girl started walking her brain began to react to the programming, this programming takes a few seconds to react so he is able to time his fist clench. Imagine he clenched his fist and she didn't stop for at least a second or two later it still would be amazing to the viewer, but stopping before the fist clench would be bad (which makes his sence of timing very good).

The windows part is just simple stooge stuff as she had a choice of who she could stop but couldn’t. This is because they were all normal passers by,

DB if my memory serves me picks the woman. And then the cleasr audiable count 3 2 1 stop!!

Why? - Why not just close the fist. - Because the stooge would not here him/her in the headset under her hat.

That’s how it’s done.

Derren tells you at the start that he uses all aspects of mind control, hypnosis, and god old magic tricks.

Every time I see one of his shows I work it out and can repeat on anybody, he is no one special just happened to be lucky enough to get channel 4 to do a few shows.

Did any body say Vinegar!! In the shopping experiment. some stuff is realy bad.

Have seen his live shows the majority is just magic tricks and physiological phenomena, not hypnosis. Old routines masked in your belief in him (a so called mind control expert). - Similar to stage hypnosis.

Unregistered

07-12-2004, 10:55 AM

Just a quick note.

If you have good confidence you could try repating word for word DB script about shopping walking around and needing to just STOP etc. as it does work.

Sorry for not including my name as i know its anoying when people post anon.

Anyway.

Take care,

Rob

Unregistered

07-13-2004, 06:49 AM

To say thay DB hypnotises people before his stunts would provide a solution to most of his stuff. - But thats not all true.

Im sure we are all used to sugestibility tests. e.g book / balloon etc. this is what he uses pre filming.

Filming is very expensive so to get into 10 cabs to make a trick work would be a waist of time, mounting the camera to the cab etc.

So yes he will have pre-selected people that he knows are very sugestable.

They are not under hypnosis per-say (would you sit in the back of a cab with a driver who is under hypnosis!!)

When he askes people have we met before - yes they are not telling the full truth, because they realy havn't met before until the day of filming. (Imagine if the person said yes of course we met before about 30mins ago when you asked me if i wanted to take part in an experiment) This dosn't happen you just say no because to you its of no relevence to the experiment (or so you think), as you yourself are trying to convince the viewer that he is genuine.

The majority of his show is showmanship and magic (he says so at the begining). NOT Hypnosis. A Lot of misdirection and subliminal suggestions and plain OLD magic.

If anything he seems to be on a mission to exposes myths about phycic's, Voodoo etc.

I have a question for thoses people who have seen him live. (I saw him at Llandudno) - I didn't think the show was that good (maybe because i could see how most stuff is done)

The question is this at any time can anybody remember a mic/feedback (loud howl through the speekers). as this happend at a very important part of the show and it also happend in the Seance show.

Just a final note I could not help but LOL when in the Seance the Trophy Cup fell on the table you here the air pellet hit the cup first then the cup falling over. and every body panicing when the bell rang (the over-sensative bell) when all it was was everyboady was making the table move in panic.

If you realy want to know how his stuff is done, get sky + you can analise his movements / words and peoples reactions, background people, etc.

Buy his hidden Video from his secret part of his website after you answered the question. http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/products.asp

"Second Deal" - answer to question - some people would hate me for revealing the answer - my answer to that is - i have nothing to do with magic so its not a secret to me.

Derren is a magic man, con artist, pick-pocket, hypnotist, and much more, and will use all methods to distract, misdirect, confuse, and trick you.

All the above makes him a master. and again a man who got a lucky break from Chanel 4.

Rob.

P.S. Sorry if you see any spelling/grammer errors as i am dyslexic, and their is no spell check on this site.

Unregistered

07-16-2004, 06:55 AM

Hi Don,

From reading this topic you seem to be an experienced mentalist and peformer and was wondeing if you could point me in the right direction tp some books, dvds or websites which would aid me in my pursuit of understanding mentalism. I have read 13 Steps and am getting to grips with the basic mentalist effects and tecniques but am really interested in certain effects such as causing people to forget certain information about themselves. For example name or destination they are going to on a train, like the effect Derren performed. I am assuming this type of effect does require some sort of experince in hypnotism but am wondeing if you know of any sources which talk about this type of effect which are classed as 'mentalism' and not hypnotism or NLP. I ask this directly to you as I belive you stated previously that you and other mentalists you know regard Derrens work to be utilising principles of magic and not hypnotism or NLP. I am not particulrly interested in starting up the debate about what methods he does use but just looking for advice on metalism resources you would recommend.

Thankyou,
George

Don

07-16-2004, 09:41 AM

Check out the work of Kneipper and Jermay.

Unregistered

07-16-2004, 10:32 AM

Thanks for replying I have got 7 deceptions but I think I will need to work on my confidence and presentation to pull off RGM, can you do effects like this? I was thiking of getting Kentonism, do you think this is a good first choice?
Oh yea and I know this isn't a mentalism forum its just that you seemed to have answers and be helpful but you can tell me to p*** off if you think these posts are irrelevant

Thanks,
George

Don

07-16-2004, 09:26 PM

I know it's expensive, but before Kentonism, try Wonder Words.

Unregistered

07-17-2004, 04:00 AM

Unregistered

07-17-2004, 04:17 AM

OK now that I have vented my spleen on the last message and on some of my previous posts let me explain major principle that DB uses which is probably the main reason why many of you think he is using NLP ok wait for it ....

HE LIES, A LOT, I MEAN SERIOUSLY MOST OF WHAT HE SAYS IS JUST A COVER UP FOR WHAT HE IS REALLY DOING, WHEN WATCHING DB IGNORE WHAT HE SAYS AND ASK YOURSELF IF I HAD A CAMERA CREW A LOT OF BUDGET AND HAD TO FAKE THIS, HOW WOULD I GO ABOUT IT. IN A LOT OF CASES IF YOU HAVE MAGICAL AND MENTALISM KNOWLEDGE YOU WONT BE FAR WRONG!!!!

to give you an example of something DB does a lot you may be wondering how he knows so much about people, it is a simple technique called PRE-SHOW work.
Basically the programmes researchers get people involved in the show to WRITE DOWN details about them selves and this information is acquired via various MAGICAL techniques including an electronic pad developed by FABRICE DELAIRE (I know this as I have one and I saw it being used in DBs live show, also Fabrice USED to have DBs name listed on his website as a CLIENT, But this was removed on DBs request as it made him look like a charlatan!!! Interestingly I have been told by an insider that a number of devices of fabrice have been bought by DB) Ok this information is then given to DB prior to his performance anfd he then 'reiterates' this information as a display of Pychological techniques!!!

Another effect of DB is when he holds up a picture he has drawn and he 'projects' this picture into the mind of the spectator who is blindfolded. This was done on 'mindcontrol 2' and also on a late night programme with Sara Cox

OK this is also pre show work and also DUAL REALITY principle the effect is written up in a book called MIND by Lee Earle and is called 'TRAIN O THOUGHT'

DB uses many effects from other performers that were originally presented as psychic feats but he simply represents them as Pychological Illusions instead.

As regards were to look for this stuff check a post i made earlier which lists approximately 25 authors of the best mentalism effects ever made, many of which have been performed by DB on his shows.

Unregistered

07-17-2004, 09:32 AM

Hi person who poted before me (Unregistered)

In an earlier post I think you said you would not mind helping people out with mentalism, so if you use msn would you mind giving me your email address so that I can add you?

Thanks,
George

Unregistered

07-29-2004, 06:26 AM

he claims that EVERYTHING he does is by mentalism. if he said, 'now i'm going to do a card trick' and 'now i'm going to hypnotise someone to make them do something' he would be being honest. Instead he chooses to lie to the audience the whole way through and creates (though not directly) the FALSE PRETENCE that every trick on his show is done using 'mind techniques'. (apart from of course the nail through the nose)

i understand that this is his niche as it were, and he relies on this facade of 'mind control'... but I have very little respect for it. He offers no real glimpse at how it can be done (unlike many other famous magicians who always admit it is a trick and offer audience to try and figure it out) and LIES about how he does it.

I know he shows when tricks have failed... far enough... he also 'explains' some tricks using pathetic false pseudo psychology. Sickening.

He is an insult to your intelligence.

I wonder what the tabloid newspapers would say if they had proof that he pre-hypnotises people? Just another Paul mcKenna?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you're objections really are? Banachek, an excellent ground-breaking mentalist, describes mentalism most succinctly, saying, “I use my five senses to create the illusion of a sixth sense". Explaining further he says, “ I do what I do by using:

 Verbal communication
 Non-verbal communication
 Magic
 Psychology
 Perceptional Manipulation

Not JUST psychology, not JUST suggestion, not JUST anything - but a mixture of all of these things. Read it all again and understand that this is what mentalism is about, creating the ILLUSION of telepathy or 'mind control'. And this is exactly what DB says at the start of every one of his shows. This doesn't mean that his tricks DON'T use psychological manipulation though, many do. All of it IS mentalism, (psychological manipulation) whether he's doing a card trick or a mind reading routine, how can it not be?

Hypnosis and NLP (to a degree) are excellent tools to use in a mentalist performance, but why should he have to use either in every single routine he does?

And yes, he IS 'deceiving' people, because that's his job and the job of every Magician/Mentalist. People already know that and happily pay to see him do it. Some tricks he uses are undoubtedly psychological manipulation; but what seems to irk you most is that he wont tell people how he does each trick.

You also say, "...the FALSE PRETENCE that every trick on his show is done using 'mind techniques...'. As an avid watcher of his shows I can honestly say that I've never heard him make such a claim - though do read my above comments with regard to waht 'mind techniques' entail.

Ian

RussWilde

08-04-2004, 01:11 AM

I'm inclined to agree,

although I don't think what DB does, by explaining his works as psychological entertainment, is actually any different to what many other performers present as something unexplained or explained as something else... Like Magic.

Let us remember that DB begins his shows explaining that everything is acheived using a combination of Psychology, Reality deception, Magic etc. If we consider just those three;

1. Psychology - a science which studies on of the most complex things in the world; the human brain.

2. Reality deception - in magic, this is mostly the practice of showing something to be caused by a possible cause, when, in reality another explanation is true.

3. Magic - a wide ranging art-form encompassing a massive amount of effects and methods of deception and performance demonstration.

So what has he said?
I will make you think that this magic is psychology? Nope, he said some might be included.

A lot of peoples conclusions about NLP, psychological influence, are as badly drawn as past conclusions drawn about psychics and mediums.

Lets be serious here, DB fools people really really well. And some people decided along he way that it was acheived with NLP, Hyp or some extreme forms of psychology. Well maybe it could, but we're experiencing his reality deception as to its true nature.

Remember Paul Daniels? He would often present a magic trick until you thought you knew how it worked, then he would show you another "way it worked" which was just as impossible as the original effect.
Is DB's work any different really?

PHatDriver

08-08-2004, 03:06 PM

Derrens dvd tell ya what he is using!

drfisher

08-16-2004, 01:31 PM

May I please let you in on a secret. I am a member of the magic circle and myself and a few of my friends know exactly how Derren does his "tricks". I am not going to reveal in depth how he does them because that is for you to find out.

Derren merely uses Victorian Parlour tricks that you can buy in a magic shop for only a few pounds.

If you get the book "13 steps to mentalism" this will explain almost everything that he does.

Also, derren was not originally scripted in to do the show. He does not devise the tricks, his production team do.

Landy

08-17-2004, 08:12 AM

Not sure if anybody has already posted this as its a very long thread and I'm at work at the moment.

But here is derrens phone booth trick and how he does it. Well, thats what it says anyway.

Derren Browns Phone Booth Trick (http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/trick/phone.html)

solaris152000

08-17-2004, 08:54 AM

Ive wrote 2 essys on the contents of that web site, its a fantastic sort of information.

unregistered user

08-17-2004, 12:18 PM

Here is Derren's explanation for his taxi Driver trick:

When I get in the taxi, I immediately bombard the driver with a story about the wheel of a toy car that I've lost and how I've had a really silly day going round and round in circles looking for it. He is trying to think of how to get to the London Eye but I keep distracting him by talking about unrelated things. My talking becomes an anchor in his thought processes, always bringing him back to his inability to find the London Eye.

You can use this process to your advantage by creating anchors in your interactions with other people. When you meet someone, talk them into the emotional state you want them to feel by asking about something that brought them a lot of pleasure or excitement – a skiing trip, for example. This will recreate for them a sense of enjoyment similar to when they were actually on the piste.

While they are talking, keep doing a particular act in a natural way that their mind will register, but which they'll hardly realise they've registered – touching them on the shoulder, for example, or drumming your fingers on the table. This will create an anchor in their mind.

Even after they've moved on to another subject, you'll be able to bring them back to the emotional state they were in when they were talking about their skiing trip by repeating the anchor. Then, you can make them feel pleased to see you every time you meet.

Kevin Fisher