Why does Hypnosis have to be Magical? it's rather scary..

[Sinbad]

Good morning Everyone,

This morning I would like to pose a question that in MHO is somewhat avoided or not answered directly.

I am a Muslim, and in Islam, Magic (white or black) is described as Evil in the Quran. God describes Magic as something thats unreal and should be avoided, commiting is a major sin, even if your cursed you shouldn't cure the Curse through Magic.

In our culture, sometimes, the word Magic may not carry the same essence or heaviness that the Quran mentioned. For example, many of you probably heard someone saying "We went to Paris ( or..mountains, waterfalls..etc.) and it was so Magical that it took our breath away." We use the word Magic at times to describe something unremarkable.

I know some of you may disagree, but I dislike the word Magic due to my belief, its something good and it shouldn't be confused with good things that happen to us in life and it's not real. Why does it have to be Magic? Obviously the media has played a big part in this.

This is not a religious debate but I would like to explain what Magic is in the Quran.

God created Humans, Angels and Jinns. Jinns are creations that we can not see because they exist in a different realm. Although we can't seem them they can see us. They travel at very high speeds almost lightning and like humans some can be Good and some can be Evil, religions are also a like. Magic happens when humans use jinns to cast spells on other humans, and it's been done many times through out history.

Muslims heal Magic Spells with the reading of the Quran on patient and not with Magic, but some out of fear rush to a magician who claims to be a Muslim aswell (Mind the contradiction if you may, though that magician that he is a Muslim) to get a faster relief. In Islam those sorcerers though they bring results they are referred to as liars (same as horoscopes, psychics and any other highly related field).

Magic was taught through 2 Angels, this story may be in other Holy Books aswell, maybe not but the two of them started teaching humans about Magic to disobey God. Those 2 Angels will be here untill the day of judgement, so they may be teaching people right now about Magic.

I've heard Merlin and some of you say many times that your not not here to convince anyone and that it's up to you to decide on whats-what. But I really wanna get out of this mind state, because I do like NLP & Hypnotherapy and I loved the Paul McKenna Show. It sucks when you have a phobia/fear about the very method that can change your life.

Kindly read or skim through these articles to understand this issue/topic better. The first article honestly kind of frightened me, but the second gave me some hope.

1. http://www.iepdoc.nl/biblio/artikel_detail.asp?ID=27 (If you may scroll down to "Concrete Example")
2. http://www.makelifehappen.com/hypnotherapy/pg.php?&Id=1&SId=12&CId=57

In short, do you think that Hypnosis and/or NLP is a transcient or subset of Magic? and Why not?

*I know some of you may not agree with my religious beliefs and such, but just keep in mind that this is only coming from my perspective. I enjoy reading all your post greatly as it gives me great joy and happiness, so I look forward to your replies.

[parsa]

If something goes against your religious belief you may choose to just not do it.

It can be hard but I would believe that following ones religious instructions is not always easy. Nor is it promissed to be easy.

I would also think that you may have come upon other instances that following what your religion tells you to do was a challenge but you over came it. And I'm guessing that there is also outside support to deal with such issues when you can't do it alone.

So now maybe the correct question would be what is magic according to your religion? Do you correctly know the answer?

If I do some time travel and go back to a time when people didn't know what a magnet is and hadn't seen one, I would probably be called a witch because I can move metal without touching it!!!

The next step seems to be to understand correctly what NLP and hypnosis are. Then you can compare your religious definition of magic to that of these two methods and decide for yourself.

And then there's the last point; whatever your decision is, there may be others of your religion that decide differently.

Good luck:).

[Don]

Parsa has the key.

In your long explanation and question, you do not once define what magic is.

Therefore, asking if hypnosis/NLP are subsets of magic is meaningless.

If your definition of magic is "conjuring tricks," then my answer to your question is: No.
If your definition of magic is "something that comes from Jinns," then my answer to your question is: No. I agree with the author of the second article you linked to who wrote, "... hypnotherapy as I have known it or use it is not one of them [that uses Jinns]."
If your definition of magic is "working with supernatural powers," then my answer to your question is: No.
If your definition of magic is "using powers I don't understand," then my answr to your question is: No.

On the other hand, if you think there is magic in the rising of the sun and the growing of a tree, in the birth of a child and the trusting look in that child's eyes, then my answer is "yes." I find there to be magic in all of those things, but magic that comes from God, not Jinns.

By the way. I don't think anyone here would "disagree" with your beliefs. The only question about your beliefs would be, "are they ecological?" By that I mean are they beneficial to you, to those around you, and to the world? If they are, great! If not, why do you wish to maintain those beliefs?

[Poodle]

Hypnosis and/or NLP really are not magic. They are learning and using the gifts that God gave each of us. We have an inner mind that controls our bodies, makes our hearts beat, blood flow, lungs work, food digest and all of our bodily functions. These are things we do not have to consciously do and if we had to do it consciously we would get very, very messed up as the conscious mind cannot handle that many tasks at the same time. It's actually impossible for you to even raise your arm consciously as there are between 130-135 separate and distinct muscle groups that have to work together to accomplish this task and it's so very easy for the inner mind to accomplish. We do it all the time.

You first learned to take one step holding on to someone or something. Then you learned to walk and then to run. You do not have to consciously stop and think: I have to maintain my balance - move right foot 12", place weight on it and then move left foot 12" and place my weight on it. It has been learned and resides in your innermind. This is the same with feeding yourself, dressing yourself, reading, writing, understanding a book. The conscious mind is in charge of guarding the innermind. Sometimes it messes it and misinformation gets inside that causes you harm in some way. A phobia is a little example at just how quickly our mind can learn something. We know consciously that an itsey bitsey little spider, bee, wasp, butterfly, etc. is not dangerous unless we happen to have an allergic reaction to a bite but it causes great distress and unease in a life. We need no Jinns or Angels to access that part of the mind to remove what is causing someone a great problem and put it back to the way that Allah intended it to be.

While we do not practice magic or magick, it often seems like we do as we are well trained in communicating with the innermind. I know many Muslim people that know, use and teach NLP and hypnotherapy. It is becomming more and more popular in the Muslim countries from northern Africa to the southern penninsula of Asia and even people in Iran wish to learn and when you read their websites well they state: ONLY ALLAH CAN HEAL. Allah is simply an Arabic name for God. He goes by many names in many different countries.

May I suggest that you pay attention to NLP and hypnosis now instead of the lies, untruths peretuated throughout the media and still being shown on television shows and movies today. We call it "Holly-weird". It apparently makes for interesting story lines even though it is so far removed from the truth it doesn't resemble at all what we do.

And lastly, you mind does pass through a hypnotic trance approximately every 120 minutes for a very brief time of your waking day. We only induce it artifically.

Go, learn and enjoy knowing that you will be doing nothing against your religion and can actually help other people and help heal this world of ours.

Stay well~Pood :pood:

[Vin]

Good posts.
I am not sure we have to talk about God at all in discussing hypnosis (as an "ability", not the applications).
Poodle, you say it is something God gave us. Well, luckily there are other approaches, for example this one http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a714016457
(http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content%7Edb=all%7Econtent=a714016457)IMO, it is far more interesting to discuss hypnosis in an evolutionary framework. Far more.

Vin

[skip]

Sinbad,

Interesting, I did not know this about Islam.

There is the story of the Amazon native who saw a man walk into an elevator, and concluded that the wall 'ate' the man.

Since he had no basis to understand elevator, he came to a conclusion based on what he did understand.

He certainly couldnt be faulted for that, only could he be faulted, if after he saw and understood the workings of an elevator, he continued to hold the same belief.

If someone does something you do not understand you may conclude it is magic, but then when you understand how it was done it isnt 'magic' anymore.

Hypnosis is something everyone does daily, naturally, a hypnotist simply applies it deliberately.

It is no more 'magic' than your ability to digest your food, or to 'know' when to stop healing a wound.

I'll admit the rsults you can achieve with hypnosis can appear to be magical, when compared with other forms of theraputic practice, or behavioral modification techniques, but it is no more magical than teaching a whale to jump thru a hoop.

Some Fundamentalist Christian sects consider hypnosis to be of the devil. I do not know their justification for that belief, but since when do beliefs have to have any justification to be held?

Do you know why Islam considers hypnosis to be magic, and is there, from your perspective, rational justification for it?

cheers,

skip

[Merlin]

is an airplane magic?
or an understanding of aerodynamics

neither hypnosis or magic are in the Quran.
hypnosis or magic are English words . it is a translation misunderstanding.

hypnosis/nlp are simply a better understanding of how we learn in our minds.

[Don]

200 years ago, if I had told you I could talk to a person 1,000 miles away, it would have been called "magic."

100 years ago, if I had told you I could talk to a person 1,000 miles away, it would have been called "telepathy."

Today, if I tell you I can talk to a person 1,000 miles away, it's called a telephone.

[Sinbad]

If your definition of magic is "conjuring tricks," then my answer to your question is: No.
If your definition of magic is "something that comes from Jinns," then my answer to your question is: No. I agree with the author of the second article you linked to who wrote, "... hypnotherapy as I have known it or use it is not one of them [that uses Jinns]."
If your definition of magic is "working with supernatural powers," then my answer to your question is: No.
If your definition of magic is "using powers I don't understand," then my answr to your question is: No.

By the way. I don't think anyone here would "disagree" with your beliefs. The only question about your beliefs would be, "are they ecological?" By that I mean are they beneficial to you, to those around you, and to the world? If they are, great! If not, why do you wish to maintain those beliefs?

Thank you Don,
No, they are not beneficial to me or to those around me. I think I am just putting to much effort into believing this crap.

Hypnosis and/or NLP really are not magic.

While we do not practice magic or magick, it often seems like we do as we are well trained in communicating with the innermind. I know many Muslim people that know, use and teach NLP and hypnotherapy. It is becomming more and more popular in the Muslim countries from northern Africa to the southern penninsula of Asia and even people in Iran wish to learn and when you read their websites well they state: ONLY ALLAH CAN HEAL. Allah is simply an Arabic name for God. He goes by many names in many different countries.

May I suggest that you pay attention to NLP and hypnosis now instead of the lies, untruths peretuated throughout the media and still being shown on television shows and movies today. We call it "Holly-weird". It apparently makes for interesting story lines even though it is so far removed from the truth it doesn't resemble at all what we do.

And lastly, you mind does pass through a hypnotic trance approximately every 120 minutes for a very brief time of your waking day. We only induce it artifically.

Go, learn and enjoy knowing that you will be doing nothing against your religion and can actually help other people and help heal this world of ours.

Stay well~Pood :pood:

Poodle you are truly awesome :)

I feel like you really understood me and yes I do wanna learn Hypnosis/NLP. I feel that I can achieve a lot with it in my life.


There is the story of the Amazon native who saw a man walk into an elevator, and concluded that the wall 'ate' the man.

Since he had no basis to understand elevator, he came to a conclusion based on what he did understand.

He certainly couldnt be faulted for that, only could he be faulted, if after he saw and understood the workings of an elevator, he continued to hold the same belief.


Thank you Skip, your absolutely right.
Hypnosis is permissible in Islam. Now that I look at it, prayers are mostly performed in an altered-state! the Question I've originally asked becomes so ridiculous to me now.

I've posted many replies in the past few days, but they did not show due to forum restrictions. However it was good for me because I realized that the more I read your post the more I learn from all of you.

I don't hold the same belief I've had before. I think I was spending a lot of energy on 'Why I should not' rather than 'Why I should'.

[Sinbad]

Thank you Merlin & Don.

I have a new perspective on things now, appreciate the encouragement everyone :)