Advice and opinions

[MrDigital]

I had a client or aquiantance who is trained to NLP Prac level visit me tonight about some future business. I asked her to bring me an agenda...

Now I dont know about my agenda but I hadn't prepared one... but my home was quiet and when she came in she said would you please work with me on something... I acknowledged and went with the flow...

In problem terms it was a biggie for her but it wasn't what it was really about and we eventually got to her 'real' problem. Now i'm cutting to the chase to avoid blurbage cos I am aware that I cannot express fully in text... the experience.

About an hour in to the work and the problem being at '50 reduced to '30' I was amazed that she'd confessed the problem was 50 years old and didnt form the link between her gauge, but hey, i'm easily amazed... I said "what intervention as a practitioner would you believe would allow you to let go completely" to which she replied "hypnosis"... Ok I'm an NLP Trainer not a hypnotist (hands up)... I replied "ah well you've been in and out of hypnosis for the last hour this will be easy"... It was acknowledged unconsciously...

Anyway from then on her physiology began to lock... firstly hands tightened, then she embraced her body and said her legs were locked etc.. and metaporic comms such as tied up inside from earlier turned into like being in a straight jacket etc... Now I worked succesfully with obvious unconscious signals and the agenda she had was an absolute success... Obviously how easy to calibrate the body unfolding and the metaphors changing...

My question... Oh and inbetween a lot of confusion, laughter etc all good stuff... back to the question... Have I just witnessed 'hypnosis' in terms of what the 'hypnotists' describe? I know it's just a word and these are just words but with what little information i'm giving... What's going on... She couldn't even lift her head at one stage from her locked hands... A fantastic experience for me that i've yet to label but any opininions...

Oh and at times I was taking her into an observer position and changing her physiology... Totally eyes open... But totally gone if that makes sense...

P.S I'm addicted to Merlins FAQ so don't bother...

Wayne

[Connie]

In my mind, NLP is just conversational hypnosis. Sounds like hypnosis to me! :) Opinion: you'd enjoy some formal hypnosis training.

[MrDigital]

opininions... To be precise connie, I must have been playing too much on the other thread... But, I tell you what... I agree... Like fully agree my unconscious went haywire at the thought of formal hypnosis training... Done deal there ;)

Wayne

[Poodle]

I thought you went to a "formal" hypnosis training and I seem to remember you were upset as there was a 12 year old or so there. Did you quit?

NLP in simple terms is hypnosis on steroids -- kewl world we have. You know how to do Nested Loops well and what happens when they are well nested -- a beautiful and deep hypnotic trance if that's your goal. Seems as if you know much more than you thought you knew. It's wonderful when you can allow your SC to do the work.

Congratulations on a job well done. As we say over here: AttaBoy!!

Pood ;)

[MrDigital]

I did a tad james style hypnosis thingy where the 12 yr old attended... I remember it well... However, as maps change I don't really consider it a formal Hypnosis training... More of a money extraction mechanism with trainers that... Well say no more...

Funny thing is she mentioned "oh here's another loop" and when she said it I realised there were quite a few going on but with no conscious intention frame...

I'm still stunned, or stunned is my current 'state'... A good stunned mind you...

Current question is - Who works on who? Cos I think I've had another breakthrough... I'm on at least two a day :)

Wayne

[Poodle]

One of the little shorties. That combined with your NLP should place you in good place. You may wish to buy some DVD's for "instants" and such. You have the background and the knowledge -- just put it all together. Buy scriptbooks, products, find a line here, a word there and I did notice that Michael Perez and Andy are having one together. That would be interesting!! The "old" tranceweaver himself.

Your "client" reminded me of one that Bandler once had. I believe they had used electric shock on her so Richard being Richard transferred it to her MD who was present at the same time. I don't remember that he ever took it away either. Our world is sooo much fun.

I am quite sure Richard NEVER TOOK A FORMAL TRAINING -- just studied Milton and he's fantastic. Not much more you need to know - how to stop an abreaction and don't snap fingers at clients in a hypnotic trance. If you get a chance, borrow Hypnosis in Munich. It's quite interesting and I know for sure there are many copies floating around England.

[skip]

Mr D,

This is going to get me on trouble ...

But I am used to it.

1. NLP is hypnosis on steroids.

2. Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it.

3. Hypnosis defined as bypass critical thinking/establish selective thinking, says absolutely nothing about duration of the hypnotic trance state.


What would happen if you were to recall your experience with this woman, as a series of hypnotic trances of varying duration, in which she (and you no doubt) were in and out of multiple trances of varying degrees of 'profundity' ?

Probably because I 'started' with NLP, I have never percieved the need for some 'formal trance session' although I do some of 'those' because the client seems to have that need.

Most of my sessions are percieved as a conversation punctuated by laughter, an occasional tear, and moments of porfound insight, after which, most of it isnt recalled very clearly but things have changed.

If what Bandler does isnt hypnosis, then Id eat my hat, but did you feel as if you were ever in a formal trance?

cheers,

skip

[Don]

1. NLP is hypnosis on steroids.


I would respectfully disagree. Unfortunately, this forum doesn't allow drawing, but here is what I would suggest in regard to the two using set theory:

Imagine a large circle. Label that psychology.

Completely within that large circle are two smaller circles that intersect. One circle is NLP. The other is Hypnosis. Where they do overlap would be called NLP/Hypnosis.

Hypnosis, then, is hypnosis. It covers a wide area within the psychological paradigm. NLP includes much of hypnosis, but also moves into other areas and techniques.

This doesn't make NLP "hypnosis on steroids." Rather, it makes NLP hypnosis + other stuff. In other words, the two overlap but are different. Neither is better or worse than the other. Neither is more or less complete than the other. They are just different with some overlap.

Depending upon the practitioner, that overlap may be greater or less. For some, NLP may be additions to their hypnotherapeutic techniques. For others, hypnotherapy may be completely subsumed within the NLP paradigm.

However, I respectfully disagree with a blanket statement that NLP is hypnosis on steroids. For some it might be, for others it would not be so.


2. Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it.

I don't know most NLPers or most hypnotists, so I can't say whether this is an accurate saying. I will state (and this may get ME in trouble), that in most trainings I've attended--both NLP and hypnosis--90%+ of the trainees don't know what the hell is going on and I wouldn't want go to them for any sort of therapy. Luckily, most of them never go into any form of practice and only take the trainings for the information and because they're "training junkies."

At some of the conventions and meetings I've been to, the percentage of quality goes up...way up. I would say that because conventions and meetings are not just trainings, they're less likely to get "training junkies" and more likely to get people who are trained, experienced, and successful in their areas of expertise.

If I needed help, I would rather go to a trained, experienced, and successful hypnotherapist than any old NLPer. On the other hand, I would rather go to a trained, experienced and successful NLP master practitioner than a "certified hypnotherapist" who had only taken a "weekend wonder" training.

The bottom line is that I can't agree with your generalizations because, more importantly, it depends upon the individual, not on the trainings they may have taken.


Probably because I 'started' with NLP, I have never percieved the need for some 'formal trance session' although I do some of 'those' because the client seems to have that need.

So you have a mindset that is strictly NLP rather than hypnotherapeutic. I like to think I can see the world from both paradigms.

I like to share that my first Ericksonian training was from an Ericksonian. It was what I like to call "organic" or "right brained" and focused on practicing the techniques and making them part of the trainee's consciousness. Since then, I've taken Ericksonian training from an NLP viewpoint and during prac and master prac trainings. These, to me, were more "left brained." We were to learn the different techniques of the Milton Model, identify them when someone used them, and use some of them in a practice.

For me, having both the right and left brain trainings have been invaluable. But they were different. Not better or worse, but different. One was not a version of the other on steroids, they were just different. I can see the differences and appreciate them.

But that's just me...

[Connie]

Yesterday I told someone that NLP & hypnosis go together like peanut butter and jelly. :)

[Poodle]

I've personally been NLP'd/hypnotized by Skip and I must say it was the absolute most profound hypnotic trance state I have ever been in - in my entire life. I have absolutely, positively no idea what all he did (even trying to listen for the nested loops). When I go, I usually go deep (somnambulism) but I must confess Skip doesn't stop there, he goes ALL THE WAY DOWN!! The beginning was just some basic Parts work but it progressed rather quickly.

His skill level is extremely HIGH!

This is also how we are taught to teach NLP as the UC mind learns much faster and quicker than the conscious so each student gets double whammies/unconscious/conscious with constant fract.

If Bandler/LaValle don't do hypnotic trance, I have absolutely no idea where I spent that week them. Ask my cousin, Soren K., where he was at DHE. He was there but he really cannot explain it.

I also know for sure that Houston is in this same world as he has been to many of the same places.

Pood :)

[skip]

Well Don I liked your analysis, and thorough as it was, I am sorry I wasnt swayed.

Under my definition of hypnosis, NLP is as I stated.

Under the definition you chose to use, it could also be viewed as you say.

S/He who sets the frame ...

I could perhaps be more persuaded to your thinking if you had successfully addressed the concept of duration of trance. Alas you didnt even mention it, although it was central to my point.

Are you saying, as I think I misunderstood, that one must go into some profound trance and be there for some lenghtly period of time, as in a 'formal hypnotheraputic trance setting'...

Or would you allow that change can be instantaneous and hypnotheraputic change only requires a trance long enough in duration to accomplish that instantaneous change?

"So you have a mindset that is strictly NLP rather than hypnotherapeutic. I like to think I can see the world from both paradigms."

I really wanted to say, "We dont always get what we like...", to that, but I wont.

I will say "Careful about the mind read, they have a tendency to make people look foolish."

You are correct that I dont know every NLPer and hypnotist and therefore cannot factually make such a balnket statement as, "Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it."

Thanks for the lesson in the Meta Model

I understood what made hypnosis work after my first NLP training. I could write 'scripts' that worked and induce deep trance on the fly with any topic given as the theme used to induce trance. I could catch the 'natural' trance state as people went into it, during normal conversation, and work with it. So could my fellow students.

I have yet to see 'hypnotists' after their first tranining, in fact many after 'complete' training, able to do the same. I have seen a lot of 'hypnosis' garduates interrupt a perfectly fine trance in order to induce the trance they have been taught they must have. Go figure.

I dont have to see every grain of sand to recognize the beach. And I rarely confuse sand in an hourglass for the beach. I'll grant there are exceptions, and exceptional schools, in both fields.

Dont take my word for it, please, use your own experience as a guide, always over my contentions.

Just understand why I am comfortale saying, " Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it.", and am also comfortable with getting into the 'trouble' I predicted I would encounter.

YMMV

You see things from your perspective, not both, and I see them from mine, not both either.

cheers,

skip

[Don]

Well Don I liked your analysis, and thorough as it was, I am sorry I wasnt swayed.

I wasn't trying to sway you.

Under my definition of hypnosis, NLP is as I stated.

And you didn't sway me, either. :)

I could perhaps be more persuaded to your thinking if you had successfully addressed the concept of duration of trance. Alas you didnt even mention it, although it was central to my point.

I wasn't trying to define either. Rather, I was coming from my experience of what I've seen among hypnotherapists and NLPers.

Are you saying, as I think I misunderstood, that one must go into some profound trance and be there for some lenghtly period of time, as in a 'formal hypnotheraputic trance setting'...

Nope. I'm not saying that at all. Yes. You misunderstood. :)

Or would you allow that change can be instantaneous and hypnotheraputic change only requires a trance long enough in duration to accomplish that instantaneous change?

I would contend that all change is instantaneous. Hypnotherapy may be involved in such changes. NLP may be involved in such changes. However, IMO such changes require neither NLP nor hypnotherapy

"So you have a mindset that is strictly NLP rather than hypnotherapeutic. I like to think I can see the world from both paradigms."

I really wanted to say, "We dont always get what we like...", to that, but I wont.

I will say "Careful about the mind read, they have a tendency to make people look foolish."

Just going from what you presented. :)

You are correct that I dont know every NLPer and hypnotist and therefore cannot factually make such a balnket statement as, "Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it."

Thanks for the lesson in the Meta Model

I wasn't trying to give a lesson to anyone, and certainly not you. I would contend that when it comes to NLP you know far more than I.

I understood what made hypnosis work after my first NLP training. I could write 'scripts' that worked and induce deep trance on the fly with any topic given as the theme used to induce trance. I could catch the 'natural' trance state as people went into it, during normal conversation, and work with it. So could my fellow students.

I understood what made hypnosis work after my first "weekend wonder" hypnosis training. I could also write scripts that worked and induce deep trance. When I took an Ericksonian training (from an Ericksonian) I learned to catch the natural trance state.

Most of the NLPers I've seen, both in trainings and outside of it, are far more interested in other aspects of NLP and didn't have the ability to see that natural trance. Well, let me change that. When people were attuned to going in and out of trance, and eagerly looking to get into trance, some of the people in hypnosis trainings and NLP trainings were able to very mechanically do this.

I have yet to see 'hypnotists' after their first tranining, in fact many after 'complete' training, able to do the same. I have seen a lot of 'hypnosis' garduates interrupt a perfectly fine trance in order to induce the trance they have been taught they must have. Go figure.

I fully agree with you. And as I have stated, I wouldn't trust the vast majority of "certified hypnotherapists" who have take one or a few trainings to do any serious work with me. The same is true of NLPers. IMO most of the people who take trainings either do it for themselves (with no intent to practice) or lose the interest in practicing as they don't have the skill to be successful. Many of the people I've seen who attend trainings are what I'd call "training junkies" who just like to take trainings.

I dont have to see every grain of sand to recognize the beach. And I rarely confuse sand in an hourglass for the beach. I'll grant there are exceptions, and exceptional schools, in both fields.

Very true. But if you saw ten beaches filled with sand and said that beaches have sand you'd be missing out on a lot of beautiful beaches that are rocky rather than sandy.

Dont take my word for it, please, use your own experience as a guide, always over my contentions.

That's what I say when I give workshops. "Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself."

Just understand why I am comfortale saying, " Most NLPers know more about hypnosis, than do most hypnotists, even if they dont consciously realize it.", and am also comfortable with getting into the 'trouble' I predicted I would encounter.

I would imagine you're comfortable because that's your experience. I think, though, that we all have limited experience. I can honestly say that some NLPers know more about hypnosis than do some hypnotists, but some hypnotists know far more about hypnosis than do some NLPers.

YMMV

Indeed, it may! :)

You see things from your perspective, not both, and I see them from mine, not both either.

Interesting mind read on your part. It seems to assume that people are stuck with one perspective and can't shift. Curiously, I know people who do that all the time. I guess we just have different perspectives... ;)

cheers,

skip

And with respect, the same back atcha! :ohm:

[JACKO]

Hi All!!!

Thank you once more for this forum!!!

What is YMMV?

Thank You

jacko

[Connie]

Hi, Jacko. It stands for: your mileage may vary. Meaning, not everyone will get the same results.

[MrDigital]

Enjoying the thread... Great to be part of a group of people willing to express their opinions rather than fall into the agreement mould straight away.

Just to throw something in the pot - In his latest book Trance-formations Bandler says he descibes 'NLP' as 'The study of the structure of Hypnosis'

I'm still interested in comments from both necks of the woods and am keen to get involved in this thread. My line of thinking at present is that trances develop continously and it's the ability to calibrate to them different trances that makes the difference. But the profound levels of trance that we seemed to be achieving between us leaves me still in 'stunnment'.

On reflection I think one of the reasons it was so powerful was that as I was working the lady kept mentioning NLP patterning that she recognised that I was utilising. However I was stacking the deck and I think the overload may have been a major contributor as she tried to keep up with the 'on the fly' switches...

I suppose my experience influences me more to the power of 'hypnosis' whatever that is just by delving around light trance work and clean ups... Then moving naturally into deeper phenomena as my skillset builds.

Regards

Mrd

[JACKO]

Thanx Connie!!!

jacko

[Poodle]

Thanks Connie! Have wondered about that one myself.

I'm waiting for Merlin to join in on this one. Read what our Heavenly Beauty has to say on these subjects.

Pood :)

[MrDigital]

I would guide this thread to anyone that senses they could give some input...

First thoughts on the content or whatever springs to mind... These forums are a chance to grow and maximise what you've learned or you are learning. Now... Get stuck in...

Waiting for Merlin to reply possibly will restrict Merlin from replying. This thread is full of life and this forum is the only place i'd post such content...

Cos, everyone's got an opinion... And I value each and everyone...

Wayne

[Docresults]

Cos, everyone's got an opinion... And I value each and everyone...
Wayne

Wayne,

I don't know if this has any value and yet it is my opinion...
OK, ready, here I go...
'I like bacon with my eggs or is it eggs with my bacon!'

On the other hand I have five fingers and I once over heard a discussion between some experts on H20. One preferred the liquid type and the other the frozen kind and as they discussed their preferences it seemed to produce and provide a lot of steam. But then again I could be all wet as I melted by listening to the sound of the steam invigorating as it expanded everything and made more room to explore and I am very grateful for those experts and their discussion.


To Your Best,
Doc Houston.

[MrDigital]

Your words always have value... And I have used many that accelerated my learning in soooo many ways...

That's why I value the written word so much and yet many seem to ignore its power...

Words that spring to mind at this moment... Think process over content or context... Wise words...

Play with every model back to flexibility... Words eh... I like my mash with my sausages :)