View Full Version : Hypno-Robber?
The_Loup-Garou
10-13-2005, 11:43 PM
Hypno-robber strikes again
From: From correspondents in Chisinau, Moldova
October 12, 2005
POLICE are chasing a con artist who used hypnotism to steal tens of thousands of dollars from bank tellers in Moldova - eastern Europe's poorest country.
The suspect, identified as Vladimir Kozak, 49, is believed to have stolen more than $40,000 from bank employees unable to resist his powers, police said yesterday.
Kozak's biggest haul took place last week, where police say he convinced a teller to give him $12,000.
His technique was to gain eye contact, put his targets in a hypnotic state and convince them to hand over cash. >>>>
Thats the whole article, what do you guys think?
parsa
10-14-2005, 07:15 AM
I think the police, the teller and the guy are all in it together:) .
Urban myth
This comes around every 8 months or so.
skip
Russians seem to like anything mysterious. I wonder why?
Jack
parsa
10-14-2005, 08:02 AM
>Russians seem to like anything mysterious. I wonder why?
More like an eastern culture. Pretty dominant way of thinking on the other side of the world. Why? Don't know. Too much history, maybe. After such a long long time reality isn't so much attractive:) .
solaris152000
10-14-2005, 08:39 AM
Lol good one.
Give me all your money
solaris152000@gmail.com
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
You will paypal me all youre money
Seriously, it complete rubbish
You will paypal me all youre money
Brian Carr
10-16-2005, 10:46 PM
Lol good one.
Seriously, it complete rubbish
You will paypal me all youre money LOL. Yes, the story is total trash, surely--pure sensationalism. But there is a fundamental truth to the idea, no matter how silly it may seem.
Anyway, why don't I just give you my bank account number? It's much more efficient than PayPal. $1,200, comin' right up! :D:D:D
Mother Russia used to be a Christian country before the Revolution. With all the recent changes orthodox Christianity has made a big comeback, and after the distinct lack of mystery in the communist era and the many layers of mystery provided by religion maybe gullibility is a natural result.
Jack
betlamed
10-17-2005, 05:03 AM
If it was just "too much history", we Austrians should have as much mysticism as the Russians... and the Greeks should have even more.
I think it's to do with climate. It's just too cold up there, so people make up stories to get more fun. :-)
bl
Kremlin
10-17-2005, 05:34 AM
I think a lot of people in this forum know jack **** about NLP and hypnosis even though they say they do! Who's to say that this hypno-robber isnt for real and he can really do what so many of you dismissed so urgently.Is this because this is not in your model of reality or because someone is actually applying NLP in the real world and getting results? Why be so close minded? When someone actually goes out and field tests it, then come back and tell us it didnt work.Until then put up or shut up!
Robert H
10-17-2005, 08:17 AM
kremlin,
It is perhaps possible at the utmost skill level. That kind of skill is not easy to come by. There are very, very few people in the world that could even come close. Those that could can just as easily get more money in ways that attract less attention.
Robert
Terry (existing)
10-17-2005, 10:28 AM
Kremlin, some of us have indeed done the work and proved at least to our own satisfaction, if not to yours, that such as is suggested is possible but only under special circumstances, and therefor not practical as has already been said. It has also been said quite correctly, that anyone with such knowledge as to even do this under the special circumstances I suggested, would be so good as to make a more than adequate income for a legal use of hypnosis... If you have a problem with this, I must ask you if YOU have done the work nescessary in order to make an educated comment? If not, may I suggest that you are no better than those you castigate as "know nothings" pretending to know much more than they do.
Wintermute
10-17-2005, 11:31 AM
oh please, this can be done!
M. Ericson, while being one of the best hypnotist's there ever was, tried to get people to harm and steal from each other, trouble was, he used direct suggestions. He should of dis-torted their perceptions, as to make such an act accpetable. Therefore, while you cannot break someone's moral code, you can alter reality so it seems like their not.
Please dont dismiss these topics
-Wintermute
Terry (existing)
10-17-2005, 04:09 PM
OK for the sake of discussion, let us bow to your superior knowledge, and invite you to explain the "how to" for the edification of all. I'm sure Merlin, Don, Skip, Jack, Steve et al are waiting with baited breath to learn the secrets you hold regarding the failures of those who did the research, and what you have learned from those failures.... I never accept it as impossible to learn from my juniors, since most here meet that criterior, and have to date taught me quite a few things. Mind you, no cheating, it must be possible regardless of conditions to meet the rules we laid out at the beginning....
The problem I have with the claim is that assuming it can be done, why in the entire history of hypnosis and parallel techniques, a history going back thousands of years, the only example of this is a recent one from Moldava?
Why haven't thousands of clever hypnosists been doing this for decades?
Respectfully, it's nice to say that something is theoretically possible, but if the theory doesn't match the reality, something is wrong with the theory.
Merlin
10-17-2005, 06:30 PM
>why in the entire history of hypnosis and parallel techniques, a history going back thousands of years, the only example of this is a recent one from Moldava?
Because, Don.
We have learned that our .45cal pistol induces a better cooperative trance and it's just as legal :)
Wintermute
10-17-2005, 11:27 PM
Try it, go on. you'll see that its possible...
(IE subject is a solider and target is a freind. Subject told to attepmt murder, fails. Subject then told that freind is enemy, subject attemp's murder.)
Unregistered Lurker
10-18-2005, 03:30 AM
The problem I have with the claim is that assuming it can be done, why in the entire history of hypnosis and parallel techniques, a history going back thousands of years, the only example of this is a recent one from Moldava?
Why haven't thousands of clever hypnosists been doing this for decades?
Respectfully, it's nice to say that something is theoretically possible, but if the theory doesn't match the reality, something is wrong with the theory.
That's a good point. I was wondering why there aren't at least more and better documented cases. I suspect it's the same reason someone here claims to teach people to predict lottery ball numbers but has never used that supposed power themselves. I wonder why that might be.
Wintermute
10-18-2005, 10:05 AM
Interesting questions, the answer? I dont know, all I know is that its possible
-Witnermute
You mean, of course, it's theoretically possible.
According to your theories.
Wintermute
10-18-2005, 11:44 PM
No, it possible, according to my reseach...
Now please just try it, change thier reality.
You'll see.
Wintermute, once again you've made a claim with no substantiation. Respectfully, "my research" just won't cut it, here.
Where's the documentation, please?
Thanks.
MissPiggy
10-19-2005, 04:15 AM
[QUOTE]Now please just try it[\Quote]
What do you mean with just try it? Just go into a bank, try to hypnotize a bank employee and get money from him? People could go into jail for stupid experiments like this and you say ,,please just try it".
Kremlin
10-19-2005, 07:37 AM
[QUOTE]Now please just try it[\Quote]
What do you mean with just try it? Just go into a bank, try to hypnotize a bank employee and get money from him? People could go into jail for stupid experiments like this and you say ,,please just try it".
I say lets evolve and try new things with NLP....otherwise how will we ever find out if certain techniqes are successful? I think thats what people forget about NLP, its main focus is to find techniques that work. And if doesnt work then change what you're doing and try something else! After all, isnt this how everything came to be in the world? With people failing at things then trying something new?
'You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake'
MissPiggy
10-19-2005, 08:07 AM
Kremlin, I agree that it's a good idea to try new things with NLP and hypnosis. I just think that it's important to keep in mind not to harm anybody while doing that. And this bank experiment could harm people. So maybe it's better to focus on experiments that can help people or things that are just fun.
Terry (existing)
10-19-2005, 08:48 AM
Sadly, more harm from hypnosis is done through ignorance than intent....
Wintermute
10-19-2005, 02:01 PM
It seems that you mis-understood me
I ment get the subject to do something, but dont let them go and rob a bank, or something stupid, and im sorry if my intent was mis-translated. Just give the subject a knife, tell him that that bag on a rope over there is the man who killed his wife. and let hell brake loose. you'lll see that erickson was wrong.
-Wintermute
Terry (existing)
10-19-2005, 02:40 PM
It seems that you mis-understood me
I ment get the subject to do something, but dont let them go and rob a bank, or something stupid, and im sorry if my intent was mis-translated. Just give the subject a knife, tell him that that bag on a rope over there is the man who killed his wife. and let hell brake loose. you'lll see that erickson was wrong.
-Wintermute First of all taking your illustration, how is it you assume that the bag on a rope is seen as something else? The other guys had much better setups, and failed to PROVE the point, not persuade the volunteer to react.. If I tell you while you are entranced, that I want you to throw a beaker of suphuric acid at one of the people nearby, and you do it, how do I know that you didn't recognise the lack of smell from the beaker and know it to be water? That you didn't notice the glass screen preventing the acid from reaching the target? That you don't recognise that nobody would ask you to do such a thing? Even if I suggested that person was your enemy, how do I prove that you believe that I am inviting you to attack another person violently? All of these questions much be dealt with before you have proved anything. This is the way proper research is done, so it would seem that your research is invalid or flawed. I have grave doubts any such research would prove acceptable to everyone, but of course you are welcome to believe as you wish, and remain unchallenged so long as you make no attempt to tell others you have PROVED something. Fact is, others have tried to develop methods which would not be challenged and failed, and I include myself here. I know of no research method of proving a negative beyond doubt. I would be delighted if you were able to offer such proof, it would indicate that you had stood on the shoulders of others, and forged ahead with your own knowledge, from which we would benifit. Sadly, I doubt you can, in fact I am certain you can't....
Wintermute, you've already responded to others who have posted since I asked you a question. You claim that your "research" shows this is possible.
Okay. Where's the results of your research, please?
Where is the documentation?
Wintermute
10-20-2005, 11:54 AM
when I say research, I mean that I had an idea, and tested it out. not that I had access to a lab, or a grant or anything like that.
I did nto ask you to bleive me ( at least I dont belive I did)
I am only telling you what I saw after planting such suggestions.
As for proof, I doubt I could bring up anything that would suffice to gain your trust, even if I did wright up what I did, you'd most likly think it fabricated.
Tere is a book which provides some facts
though I doubt it could move some of you here. I mentioned it before, its 'Open To Suggestion: The uses and abuses of hypnosis' to which I read, though I have yet to check the authors credabilty...
Sorrry if I sparked any hatred.
-Wintermute
Wintermute,
It isnt a matter of hatred.
Many of us here could do what you have suggested. We know how to do the "work arounds". Some of us know a method of complete bypass. At least in so far as we are willing to test it.
I dare say that most of those who know how, havent done it, because of our personal ethical considerations. I cannot speak for them, but I can for myself.
For the sake of discussion I am willing to assume that you got a volunteer, who after being fully informed, consented, to let you attempt to get them, to violate their ethical code. And further, I am willing to assume, they actually did the act you were trying to get them to do.
BUT it is only proof that you can get someone to violate their ethics IF two conditions are met. It must be something that IS a violation of their ethics in that context, and they must be cognizant of their actions, and the results of their actions.
Otherwise you didnt get them to violate their ethics or morals, you just fooled them, and they acted in accordance with their ethics and or morals.
In other words, if you say, persuaded them to shoot someone, because they thought the person was actually a target, they havent violated their ethics, unless they believe shooting targets is an ethical violation. They have just been flim flamed, and you dont need hypnosis for that.
And Im not going to ask you, although I am mightly curious, to tell us to what degree, and how you handled, the psychological devastation, to your test subject, brought on by your 'successful test results'. If they werent profoundly psychologically devastated, as someone would be, upon learning that they could indeed be a 'mind controlled robot', then what makes you believe they acted in violation of their code?
I suggest gently that you may not have accomplished your outcome at all, even though the subject did as you bid them.
The fundamental problem remains. "How do you know for sure that you accomplished getting someone to do something they wouldnt do?"
In other words, "Did you really accomplish it, or did you lead them into a context where heir ethic allowed the actions. Or did you discover something they simply didnt believe they would do?"
That's where knowing the protocols, and test group, etc results would be helpful.
skip
So in other words, no lab, no tests, a couple of tries which is meaningless ancecdots, and one book from 15 years ago vs. thousands of books that say otherwise.
There's no hatred, just disappointment in the total lack of support for your claims.
Robert H
10-20-2005, 01:14 PM
Wintermute,
thanks! You didn't spark any hatred or anything.. I know I often forget to be as considerate and courteous as I could be when posting here. However, that is just plain old fashioned being a hurry.
I know I for one appreciate your and everyones participation here... even if I normally do not express it well. the more varied, the more interesting.
Robert
Wintermute
10-20-2005, 11:22 PM
thanks Robert.
Don, I am not a scientist. Just someone interested on hypnosis.
Skip thats a good pont, but thier moral code still takes effect on other people. and yes, I did brake his realtiy. I changed it. but I am saying that I broke eriksons theroy that anti-social acts cant be induced. They could Erikson failed becasue he didnt alter reality.
You must remeber that his moral code was broken in a way. he commited an anti-social act.
-Wintermute
That is just the point Wintermute, he didnt act against his moral code, he acted in accordance with his new moral code.
And that is a very different thing.
And it occurrs all the time.
I have a personal friend who is a State supreme court justice. She hated guns, thought they were immoral, until her house was broken into, and now she carries a pistol.
Her sense of morality changed.
No violation of morals or ethics there.
A girl wont have intercourse before marrage. Trick her into thinking you are her husband on her wedding night, and she will act in accordance with her ethical code, and have sex with you out of wedlock.
But she isnt violating her morals or ethics.
IMO, no more than I know, you didnt cause your friend to violate his morals. You didnt meet the two criteria, violation in context, with full knoweledge of the act, and its ramifications.
Did you assist him in doing something he wouldnt ordinarily do? Yes. But you didnt compell him.You did set up the conditions in which his acting within his moral code could result in his taking the actions he took. Geez Wintermute the military does his all the time, what you did simply isnt that unique. So do cults, and religions, and fashion fads.
Now Im not going to tell you that is sloppy research. I will tell you that it appears you have drawn an errneous conclusion from the data you obtained.
You havent proven Erickson or others wrong, yet.
Now lest you think I am just blindly defending my God Erickson, he most certainly had his flaws. I totally disagree with his notion that most women's problems would be solved by getting married and having babies. He prescribed that often. But strangely enough it often worked.
Go figure.
skip
Wintermute
10-21-2005, 08:58 AM
Thank you, my freind.
true, very true.
I am put to shame by you skip, you have told others what I was trying to say to myself.
Now, let me clear up a case of misunderstanding
when I say 'broke his moral code' I ment from the spectators perspective.
not from the subjects perspective.
-Wintermute
Mentalius
10-21-2005, 10:12 AM
The problem I have with the claim is that assuming it can be done, why in the entire history of hypnosis and parallel techniques, a history going back thousands of years, the only example of this is a recent one from Moldava?
Why haven't thousands of clever hypnosists been doing this for decades?
Respectfully, it's nice to say that something is theoretically possible, but if the theory doesn't match the reality, something is wrong with the theory.
Well, if someone did this succesfully....would we know?
:cool:
Those who didn´t succeed.....? The following - I guess - is a wellknown and absolutely true story:
40 - 50 years ago, a hypnotist in Denmark was jailed (for 14 years), for supposedly hypnotising someody to rob a bank. It happened that the bankrobber shot and kiled two people, and as he was caught and brought to trial, he claimed that a professional hypnotist made him rob the bank. tey were bothe sentenced to jail for 8 and 14 years.
And you believe it?
If it works so well, why does it only work once every 40-50 years?
Theory says it's possible. In reality, it doesn't happen.
Wintermute
10-21-2005, 01:41 PM
so your saying you've tried, and failed? hmmm.....
-Wintermute
Terry (existing)
10-21-2005, 10:56 PM
Sorrry if I sparked any hatred.
-Wintermute Hardly hatred, I believe all of us, including you are offering what we truly believe to be the truth as we have observed it, but since our experiences differ, so do our observations, and beliefs about what is fact. Keep doing what you do for your own interest, and never fear to share even if you get knocked down at times. Being confronted by someone who differs is good, it brings out facts that may not have been observed before. I have been doing research for thirty five years, but still find it fun, and have no problem with those who disagree, but I do probe them as I would probe the circumstances of an experiment I was doing, to ensure that no mistakes were being made. Your errors were obvious to many of us, and we therefor pointed them out to you, not to prove you wrong, but to show that the research was faulty. Surely that is better than letting it slide and leave both you and other readers in error as to what you actually proved?
No, I'm saying that if it works so well, hundreds or thousands of people would be doing it. But the evidence--and it's shaky at best--is that it only supposedly works once every 40-50 years. By Occam's razor, the implication is that the one case is probably a misinterpretation or at best, an aberration, and that it probably doesn't happen at all.
Wintermute
10-22-2005, 03:47 AM
Yes, I see your point.
My best guess is that people who would use hypnosis for such crimes, were not aware it could be used. After all, the saying 'your not in danger when under hypnosis' could of put others off.
Or they could of tried, and found no 'instant inductions' and gave up.
I leave that to specualtion
-Wintermute
There is also an inherent contradiction in all of these so called 'reports'.
Unfortunately, for me, it is too glaring to get around.
If the hypnotist is good enough to get the person to do the crime, then they are also good enough to cover their tracks. So all investigators would have is one suspect and no hint of a hypnotist.
If the hypnotist isnt good enough to cover her tracks, then they arent good enough to orchestrate the crime.
You must also never forget that evading culpability is a huge motivator.
Take the so called case of the guy who robbed the bank and both he and the hypnotist were convicted. Is it possible that the guy had a motive for claiming that he was completely innocent of responsibility? If he had convinced them, "The hypnotist made me do it.", he would have walked.
I have only been involved in one court case where "the hypnotist made me do it" was used. A graduate student nurse fondled a high school student. She went to the clinic complaining of a headache, and he 'examined' her. She calimed he hypnoized her, and he admitted that he tried an induction he had read about, and was surprised "it worked".
After interviewing both of them, I conluded, "No hypnosis." Rather misuse of 'authority'.
It did however make a convenient excuse for the girl to explain why she just sat there and let him explore, when he felt very uncomfortable about it.
Everyone has motives.
think abou it,
skip
So is what you're saying you believe it's true although there is no indisputable evidence to support it?
Whatever....
Wintermute
10-22-2005, 02:20 PM
to Don: I give in, I cant show you what i've seen, and since you belive that the majority must be right. I have no chocie, I am ending this covosation with you. for fear that things could get rather unsightly.
-Wintermute
Sorry, Wintermute. But I don't believe that the majority must be right. I do, however, believe in factual evidence being right.
If everybody in the world said that the story was true yet none had seen in and there was no coroborating evidence, I still wouldn't believe it.
The majority doesn't make it right. The facts do.
Wintermute
10-23-2005, 07:01 AM
Fair enough Don, but I see no way of proving, and me placing a .doc would most likly be crisatsed as fabricated.
-Wintermute
Just FYI, if I thought you would fabricate something, I wouldn't be communicating with you
There is a long history in "journalism" of people fabricating articles or going beyond what is in the facts. Many English papers, commonly referred to as "Fleet Street" (although they're not there any more) are still known for that. In the U.S. the Hearst Syndicate was known for that, although they've cleaned up (somewhat). Perhaps the worst modern offender in the U.S. was "The National Enquirer," but they got tired of all the lawsuits, so they changed to being reports about famous personalities. Most of their work today, though meaningless fluff, is accurate. However some of their "reporters" got upset over not being able to make things up, so the publisher created a new paper for them, "The Weekly World News." It used to have a notice in the indicia (the little box with info about the publisher) saying that it should be viewed as entertainment only, but I think they may have removed it.
There is a group called the Flat Earth Society that really believes the Earth is flat. They can write things, including using scientific-sounding theories, to support their claims. I'm going to guess that most people here will not agree with their claims.
So merely having a document that says something doesn't make it accurate. Being able to check up on the claims is the only way to make sure that the facts are real.
Once, while I was the Editor-in-Chief of a magazine, we received a fascinating article which had a very bizarre fact: It claimed that a certain dormitory at a famous university had banned the use of Ouija Boards. That fact really helped to make the story good, so I personally called up both the university and the heads of the dorm to check on the accuracy of the claim. They told me that it was true, but gave a different reason (although they did sound nervous about my asking). Because I decided to run the story, but didn't want to give a false impression, I included a sidebar explaining the school's claim for the reason.
MissPiggy
10-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Today I did read another article about hypno-robbers: The headline said that old people in vienna were robbed by guys who hypnotized them. In the article then it turned out that the guys gave this old people drugs to make them go to a cash machine with them. That's not what I would consider as hypnosis. But in the headline it was stated hypnosis and so I guess that's all what people will remember when they read it.
Mentalius
10-23-2005, 01:31 PM
Hey guys...
We´re talking history. The story is absolutely true, and not "fabricated".
"Take the so called case of the guy who robbed the bank and both he and the hypnotist were convicted. Is it possible that the guy had a motive for claiming that he was completely innocent of responsibility? If he had convinced them, "The hypnotist made me do it.", he would have walked."
And yes...the above is exactly what happened, the robber claimed that the hypnotist made him do it. They both went down, however, the robber was released after 8 years, and stated publicly that he was never hypnotised. Bjørn Schouw Nielsen (the hypnotist) sat for another 6 years!
Actually, I told this old story (which was discussed worldwide in the psychological community, at the time) as a fun! misunderstanding about hypnosis in the courtroom.
Though, I don´t appreciate having "fabricater of so called cases" hanging around my neck, thank you.
Thanks for clarifying the story!
It's amazing how stories based on facts can get switched around to say the opposite of what they originally said.