Milton Erickson and Being Present

[Simple Guy]

Milton Erickson was known for his remarkable ability to be aware of the
subtlest distinctions in his patients, students and physical environment.
Were he not to have had this ability, he would not have accomplished
nearly so much.

The area of rapport building, for example, requires being fully present
for the deepest levels to be reached and maintained. He certainly was.

Do you care to share with others here, processes and methods found to
be personally helpful in enhancing your capacity to be fully present,
in the here and now?

[TaffyE]

Hi S.G.

My way is to forget about myself (especially the emotions) and to be aware of the surroundings, be it with a client or walking down the street.

Possibly over simplistic, but it works for me

[joethelayperson]

that sounds like what Bandler and Grinder used to call UPTIME

When you basically train yourself to not have (or ignore) your internal dialogue and internal states and focus as much of your awareness on the client in front of you. I CAN ONLY COMMENT ON WHAT I HAVE READ AS I AM NOT A PRACTITIONER AND AM RELIANT ON OUTSIDE SOURCES FOR WHAT I AM ABOUT TO WRITE


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I refer to Dr Bandler who succinctly describes a process that sounds unscientific but if you practice it a hundred times a day, presumably, it will quiet your inner chatter


say to yourself

"shut the f@~* up shut the f@#* up shut the f@~* up"


A magician called Israel Regardie used to get his trainees (for want of a better word) to wear an elastic band around their wrist and everytime their mind wandered, they were to snap the band to remind them of the task at hand. Maybe you could ask a friend to talk to you for increasing lengths of time and you could attempt to quiet your internal dialogue. Each time your thoughts started wandering, you could SNAP the band to remind yourself where your attention should be focused


HEY WHAT DO I KNOW? MY NAME GIVES ME AWAY!!!!!!! :)

[Jack]

Hello SG,

Erickson probably did everything intuitively, or perhaps it was such a pround level of experience that it looked like intuition. Intuition can't be modelled. I'd go with Taffy; just be yourself and react and interact with what feels right. You can emulate Erickson's methods, but no-one else is Erickson. Similarly, no-one else is you.

Jack

[Annie]

Hi Joe,

You said :
1. When you basically train yourself to not have (or ignore) your internal dialogue and internal states and focus as much of your awareness on the client in front of you,
I refer to Dr Bandler who succinctly describes a process that sounds unscientific but if you practice it a 100 times a day, presumably, it will quiet your inner chatter.
say to yourself : "shut the f@~* up, shut the f@#* up, shut the f@~* up"


Upon reading this horrible negativity, I just gasped, honestly I did .

Only people with definite "Anger-management challenges" have ever directed those words at me; and I would *never* think to address or speak to myself in that fashion. Loving myself, I will pay attention to what is being said ... altho,

"written" communications are vastly more Limited so it's easy to mis-understand not only the Person and their Intent as well as their Meaning, I have experienced for myself, and noticed of others. (Generally, Net-groups of people enjoying healthy self-esteem, instead of " I am better at ... than you are, therefore I am just a better person period ", have much fewer challenges in this regard. And there, communications can flow much more spontaneously and free. I have enjoyed being in those kinds of groups alot better :) )

There have been a very few isolated people who, after repeatedly verbally (and therefore emotionally) abusing me with me informing them that that is how they are coming across to me, yet they persisted in continuing ... in same vein, that I have gotten to the point of such sheer exasperation and finally said " Would you, please, SHUT UP ! " - but that was only after I had exhausted all other perceived means of trying to get my point across, pleasantly.
~

2. re wear an elastic band around wrist and everytime their mind wandered, they were to SNAP the band to remind yourself where your attention should be focused :
Again,
isn't that "Spanking" akin to "corporal punishment" ? - I dunno. I'm against those sorts of Negative anchors, especially when it comes to raising children.
In public places, so sadly I have observed Parents correcting their *pre-school children* with " Shut up, & pay attention to me ! " re-inforced by a heavy-handed swat on their bottoms, or worse across their face. It makes me gringe every time. The other day, I was shopping in an upscale Deli, where I witnessed a "Public school teacher" behaving this way towards her own 2 yr.old son. I shudder thinking how such people will interact with their students in class.

These sorts of actions can have many cross-contextural abuses : best to be avoided. Who knows who might be "driven to the point of sadness, depression, despair & suicide". I have known "mental Therapists" priding themselves in bullying other people there, sadly enough.

Better to gain awareness and understanding back and forth thru *Respectful questioning*, and help each other in other positive ways like these. What do you think, Joe ? :)


Annie

[skip]

Its a pattern interrupt Annie.

Next time your self talk is saying something negative to you, you might try it, and see if you like the results.

If you do, you could continue.

If not, dont.

[joethelayperson]

Hi Annie

it wasn't my intention to be abusive....in fact for me that was quite controlled. I generally use expletives quite frequently in my speech (in Liverpool the word f*&% is a noun, an adjective and a verb)


Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence. In hindsight I can see what you mean and I suppose that the carrot can be just as effective as the stick

(actually in work, people were discussing a program that was on the TV recently that had two teams of volunteers......one group were PUNISHED if they did not do what their leader was telling them to do......the other group was given POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT whenever they did something right. At the end of the period, the two teams competed and at the end, the group who were punished outperformed the other group......I don't know what this says or whether this is repeatable but it suggests we are more mticated by fear than encuoragement NOT MY PERSONAL BELIEF BUT JUST AN OBSERVATION)


Anyway, that said, I am genuinely sorry if my bad language (I did try to disguise the word somewhat) caused any offence. I know it was not the word itself but the context and how it was used that bothered you Annie.......but I hope you know me well enough by now that my intentions, if not always my actions are honourable


thanks for the input



Joe :)

[Annie]

Hi Joe,

Just so you understand, Joe : I have not in the past, nor do now, think of you as an "abusive-towards-others" person, AND I took no offense at your post at all. While I have not met you "face-to-face", I choose believing you are a Well-behaved person :) ... (I dunno what you are like while "under alcoholic influence".
I have a b.i.l. who, in his almost daily inebriated state, behaves even more "mellow" than he does when sober. Actually, I think of him as almost too vulnerable then : somebody could take advantage of him in countless ways, and he'd just go along with it. Perhaps some day, he will be willing to change. He is a very wonderful person, also. They live 1000's of miles away).

re " I generally use expletives quite frequently in my speech (in Liverpool the word f*&% is a noun, an adjective and a verb) : Truth be known, I was taught this word's meaning as part of my "English-education", and there have been a few times I've mumbled it myself, "once" : oh like when we chose building a "Deck = 2/3 the size of the house" ourselves, and the hammer ended-up on my little thumb ! accidentally, instead of driving the decking-nails into their targets as per plan. Finally, I agreed using the nail-gun: that worked alot better, easier & faster ... until I managed to get it jammed by applying insufficient pressure on top of it. Oh well, back to the cave-man method it was - lol. The entire project supervised under the careful guidance of a funtastic engineer, the deck turned out functionally Beautiful : with lots of compliments from neighboring friends)

What I am finding "self-abusive", was Bandler's suggestion at repeating his phrase : "Shut the f@%$ Up !" over & over, ad nauseaum, 100 times. Yes, of course, I understand Richard's suggesting it as a "Pattern-interrupt". That said,
I choose thinking there are better "Pattern-interrupts".

re 2 teams of volunteers : 1 group were PUNISHED if they did not do what their leader was telling them to do.
The other group was given POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT whenever they did something right. At the end of the period, the two teams competed and at the end, the group who were punished outperformed the other group. It suggests we are more moticated by fear than encouragement ...

Well, I shared an example of this a while back. The Administrator of the Nursing-department (at the place I agree giving a few hours to each week) is ruling her Staff using " threatening FEAR-strategies ". Sure, it has worked as far as the Place having been awarded 3 excellent State Surveys *consecutively*. This is fairly unheard of, in this industry.
That said, she is continuing paying a very high price : As people Resign to get away from her abusive strategies, she's not getting other Volunteers fast enough to fill the resultant Staffing-vacancies. (This, on top of the fact that in our state alone, there are currently 6000 Nursing-positions for which employers can not get Applicants for); so - we are working forever "short". Imagine being "In charge of" not only 1 Unit, but a Medicare-wing as well. There we have people who just 2 days ago, underwent "open-organ surgeries, plus transplants" etc. Oh, and don't forget the "Psych"-overflow, with folks convinced we are literally "dropping pit-vipers into my bed !" - oh yes, we have fun, I tell you, lol

OK; so - what am I doing to *make a positive difference* there ? Well, I make sure every person working directly with, and under, me gets *Encouraging :)praise :D* for their Helpful strong work habits ! ... such going a long way, towards making these SAD-situations "bearable" ...


Annie

[joethelayperson]

I will use that argument against anybody who praises the Stick method over the Carrot method in future

Yes I see. So the Stick works in the short term but long term, it can be harmful. As always, makes perfect sense


Annie, I have noted a few times that you say English isn't your native language, may I ask what is?

My only reason for asking is that your posts have definately become easier to read. You never had a problem with the language that I could see EVER. In fact you often used words that I as a native speaker, had to look up in the dictionary, as I had never heard of them!

No it was more you were punctuating where you didn't need to. I now note that your posts are a lot better in this respect and much easier to follow as a result.

Can you speak any other languages other than English and your native tongue?

I went to Amsterdam several years ago and a young lady on the boat cruise, could speak 6 langauges fluently and 2 she said she was rusty but learning to speak.

I was very impressed

[Merlin]

Hi Joe,

Just my tuppence worth.
Sticks and carrots both have useful places, depending on desired outcome.
It's regularly stated that toward strategies are better than away from strategies. I don't find that to be true.

Away from 'pain' (or similar) is an incredible motivator!

Yes towards reward can be good too. But it's best to have both tools and use them as appropriate.

[Obi Wan]

i found it amusing and I found the humor in it....But i have a sort of dememented sense of humor and it's wonderful....i apperciate the humor....

[skip]

Joe,

Just to add a bit to what Merlin said.

Away from strategies are generally high energy motivators, but they have no direction. Jumping out of the frying pan is good but you might land anywhere, and that might not be where you wanted.

Towards strategies are a direction oriented, but sometimes they lack the oomph.

I think it is fair to say there is no towards that doesnt have a corrosponding away.

So for my book it always a dual approach. Sometimes you might choose to emphasize one over the other, but it is always dual.

[Annie]

Hi Joe,

re " You never had a problem with the language that I could see EVER.
In fact you often used words that I as a native speaker, had to look up in the dictionary, as I had never heard of them ! " :

Well, loving to converse with people as I do, I am very motivated to want to increase my vocabularies to widen my ability in communicating more easily across as many contexts as possible.

Also, loving to play, I play with words; and will invent new words to see how they might fit. Also, I will look at existing words, and phrases, and seek to derive new *increasing Benevolent choices* meanings from them, meanings "different" from how they are usually commonly being used.

After having been exposed to, and immersed, in English-speaking culture for 8 months, I became the 1st. runner-up in a Spelling Bee amongst 100's of native American/English students. The Public school teaching judges exhausted their Lists trying to quiz me on a word I would fail spelling correctly. This went on for over an hour. Finally, everyone wanting to go home, an English teacher took advantage psychologically by tricking me, and asked me to spell (what in English happens to be 1 of the most easiest to spell words as it is so "phonetic" ) this 28-letter word : " Antidisestablishmentarianism ".
now,
in the Aftermath of this event, I was to discover that none of the other students, and fully 95% of my USA-born, and educated, teachers were able to spell this word *correctly*, either. So, what do you think the chance was of me (having only been exposed to the English-language for 8 months) getting it *Right, on my 1st. guess* ? In the 1st, place, she surmised correctly that I had never even been exposed to this word before.
After what seemed like an eternal silence, and me asking her to repeat the word again, I ventured : " Where, in the rules, does it say you are allowed to ask me to spell an Entire sentence, Ma'm ? " ... Smilingly, she answered, " This is but 1 single word ". So, thinking ever so carefully, at 14 years of age, I made the attempt and managed to utter each correct letter : antidisestablishment ... and then, I said "e" - instead of the correct "a", to finish "arianism". and so, I failed winning the Spelling Bee; aw, well :-)
~~


re " Annie, I have noted a few times that you say English isn't your native language, may I ask what is? " :

in the vernacular of native *Verbal*-language, the answer is : German

in chronological order, I was educated in : German, Russian, English, Spanish, Latin, French; and then
I counted Medical as that has its own "language"; well, so for that matter does any "specialization" like (Hypnosis : maybe a few dozen terms), and "nlp" : with its own 24 volume encyclopedia

re " Can you speak any other languages other than English and your native tongue? " by process of elimination :
Russian I am not yet motivated to re-call consciously; perhaps at a future time.
and
being immersed in Spanish at the same time as English became too confusing, so I deferred my interest in Spanish, and haven't gotten back into it, yet.
and
Latin : outside of root-words in specializations, Who today is conversing in it, solely ?:-)
and
immersed amongst French-speaking people in my most recent past ..., sometimes it seems as if that language is easier for me to re-call than my native German. But I lived, until my early teens, in Germany ... (so next to English ...) German being the language in which I am most practiced. Now, where did I put my *Rust-cleaner*, lol

n the vernacular of native *Unspoken* language, the answer being : Love
(not
how people will often relate to the word as in "making love, as in casual sex, with people wanting selfishly to get pleasure ").

the kind of "unspoken language" with which I interact with the people I have helped, reach their various goals.
If I recall correctly, you asked me about this recently in the other (now archived) Forum. And
perhaps now, you can understand my difficulty in describing "the process", simply because large portions of what I do *especially at the very Outset* is "unspoken". understand, Joe ? :-)
~~

re " you were punctuating where you didn't need to. I now note that your posts are a lot better in this respect and much easier to follow as a result.

Like I said before, in the 90's I enjoyed participating posting in Net-groups where I wrote just like this, and never *punctuated*, or otherwise used any extraneous marks with which to hack-up my communications. And it was much faster that way, flowed easily, and only took a short time for me to compose.

Alas, we meet up with " :eek: ! oh, No ! characters :(", sometimes.

However, supported by the encouragement of my Loved ones, I have been regaining my former confidence in communicating "via writing" as I have in past decades; and for their Benevolent and unselfish kindnesses I will remain ever so greatfully Appreciative :)


re " Yes I see. So the Stick works in the short term but long term, it can be harmful. As always, makes perfect sense " :

Well, of the 2 : "away-from" vs. "towards" strategies -

the 1st. is an incredibly energetic Motivator !, like "pain" : I don't enjoy hurting; do you ?
A useful question you can ask yourself is : What are some of the choices you can think of for *getting away-from pain, successfully not only in the Short-term but Long-range as well*, Joe ?

the 2nd. moves you towards some Desired-outcome, or goal :
A useful question you can ask yourself is : What are some Desired-outcomes or personal goals you are playing with achieving, in the near future, as well as further down the road, Joe ?

Can you sense, or feel, the difference in the *amount of energy* you are likely to expand in your "away-from" vs. your "toward" strategies, Joe ?

They each can serve a *useful* purpose, agreed ? :)


Annie

[joethelayperson]

thanks for all the help folks

the away/towards strategies and their usage, does make sense

Annie....wow

Latin huh? I had heard that if you could get your head around Latin then most of the other European languages are easier as they mostly have the same root.

Thanks for the time and the explanation.

[Annie]

Hi Joe,

re : " Annie....wow. Thanks for the time and the explanation."

Which of my comments is this " wow " in reference to ?


Annie

[Merlin]

Simple,

Getting back to your post, I do hypnosis.
That way I avoid the pitfalls you bring up.

[joethelayperson]

Hi Annie I meant the multi-lingual stuff when I wrote that but in hindsight, most of what you write makes me go 'Wow!'

[Annie]

Hi Simple,

You said:
" Milton Erickson was known for his remarkable ability to be aware of the
subtlest distinctions in his patients, students and physical environment.
Were he not to have had this ability, he would not have accomplished
nearly so much. "

No doubt, Milton helped 1000's of people change "parts" of themselves for the better.

What means did he use for guiding people into ridding themselves of mistaken decisions such as chronic Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc ?

You said:
" The area of rapport building, for example, requires being fully present
for the deepest levels to be reached and maintained. He certainly was. "

Define " deepest ? levels being reached, and maintained " ...
iow, how *deep = within* do you venture daily, and allow yourself the kind of Belief-changes you are capable of realizing, and bringing to *abundant :) fruition* ?

You said:
" Do you care to share with others here, processes and methods found to
be personally helpful in enhancing your capacity to be fully present,
in the here and now?

Yes, hypnosis :D will by-pass inherent, in here, pitfalls.


Annie

[Merlin]

Come on Annie,

>What was his success-rate for conditions such as *physical handicaps, and helping people rid themselves of chronic conditions such as Heart disease, diabetes, cancer*, etc ?

ME practiced hypnosis 25-50 and more years ago. Hypnosis (for the most part) wasn't being used for such issues back then.
That's like questioning the Wright brothers for building airplanes because they never broke the sound barrier.
Uncle Milton was good in his day.

All we need to realize is that ME is history. It's time to move on.
Studying ME is like studying the Wright brothers. Fantastic for their day, but of little value building the next 747 (or Airbus...)

[Simple Guy]

Dearest Merlin,

Yes, hypnosis can be effective for this. ("Pitfalls"? You probably were referring
to some other posters, as I didn't bring up any in this thread.)

[Simple Guy]

Hi Jack,

I believe that Milton Erickson had an inordinate amount of innate intuitive
ability. I believe that he developed this intuition (and mindfulness) further,
as a result of (not despite) dealing with his challenges (polio, dyslexia,
colorblindness). It was a case of nature and nurture, harmonizing
beautifully in Dr. Erickson.

By the way, are you the same Jack that had an extended dialog with
Skip in the old forum (in a thread on referrals)?

[Simple Guy]

Hi Annie,

"What means did he use for guiding people into ridding themselves of mistaken decisions such as chronic Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc ?"
Though, strictly speaking, these areas were outside the scope of his
work, he helped people acquire healthy attitudes and behaviors that no
doubt lessened the occurrence of such afflictions. For those that were
ill, his work was conducive to better prognoses.

"Define " deepest ? levels being reached, and maintained " ...
iow, how *deep = within* do you venture daily, and allow yourself the kind of Belief-changes you are capable of realizing, and bringing to *abundant :) fruition* ? "
"Deepest," as in the most meaningful level of trust and connectivity.
The level, for me personally, varies somewhat on a daily basis. It's
an important thing to do, though, for everyone.

[Annie]

Hi Merlin, and Simple -

Merlin, you said : " Come on Annie, "

I'm comin', I'm comin' ... lol

>*physical handicaps, and helping people rid themselves of chronic conditions such as Heart disease, diabetes, cancer*, etc ?

Merlin said : " ME practiced hypnosis 25-50 and more years ago. Hypnosis (for the most part) wasn't being used for such issues back then.
That's like questioning the Wright brothers for building airplanes because they never broke the sound barrier.
Uncle Milton was good in his day. "

I am fully cognizant that, given Uncle's Milt's "M.D./Psychiatrist-model of the world", he "was good in his day". I paid tribute to his contributions by saying, in my previous post, " No doubt, Milton helped 1000's of people change "parts" of themselves for the better."


Merlin continued : " All we need to realize is that ME is history. It's time to move on.
Studying ME is like studying the Wright brothers. Fantastic for their day, but of little value building the next 747 (or Airbus...) "

Thank you, Merlin, that was precisely my point AND I am glad you and I are in agreement on this :)

That is why I choose asking my next question: " What means did he use for guiding people into ridding themselves of mistaken decisions such as chronic Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc ? "

Simple's response was: " Though, strictly speaking, these areas were outside the scope of his work, he helped people acquire healthy attitudes and behaviors that no doubt lessened the occurrence of such afflictions. For those that were ill, his work was conducive to better prognoses. "

That was my point, also : " Conducive to better prognoses, and lessening the occurrence of such afflictions " is NOT what we ought to be about. That is like saying, "Sure, I can help you *prolong* your existence. Here, let me help you acquire healthy attitudes, making it easier for you to bear your afflictions ". I repeat, that is NOT where our opportunties lie.

Simple, how about Guiding such sufferers " out of their valleys of despair, and into *Life, abundantly ...* :)

A good question you may want to ask is : How do you, personally, define *an Abundant life* ? : As you walk amidst teeming masses of people, each caught-up in their own little trances of " what shall I eat today ?, and how shall I pay my bills ?, etc ", do you, intuitively, recognize moments of opportunity to Touch, and bless someone's life, in such as way as to profoundly help them on their way ?

Can you understand that better now, Simple ?


Annie

[skip]

I think Annie missed your point Merlin.

Perhaps we could fault Milton Erickson for not successfully healing AID's patients.

Perhaps we could fault Milton for not successfully treating EBoli.

Merlin is right, Milton is a historical figure, upon whose work, are based many if not most the possibilities we now have, open to us as hypnotists. He almost single handedly brought hypnosis 'out of the closet' and made it acceptable to the main stream.

And it is his work that is important here, and what capabilities it offers us, not whether or not he personally did this or that.

Milton taught a permissive, comfortable, method of trance induction, and trance work. It is remarkably effective, and elegant to both use, and experience.

Some people prefer a more authorative approach. "You Vill go into trance nowwwwww!"; and that's ok too.

[Annie]

Hi Simple again,

addressing Jack, you said :
" I believe that Milton Erickson had an inordinate amount of innate intuitive
ability. I believe that he developed this intuition (and mindfulness) further,
as a result of (not despite) dealing with his challenges (polio, dyslexia,
colorblindness). It was a case of nature and nurture, harmonizing
beautifully in Dr. Erickson. "


There's an excellent point, here : Define *intuitive ability* ? and better yet : How can each person develop such, in blessing their own life as well as other people's lives ? ...

People have a variety of choices in their (emotional, and often resulting physical) sufferings:
1. They can passively resign themselves to them, as in " That's life, there is nothing I can do about it ".
or
2. They can become, and grow, increasingly bitter because of their limitations.
or
3. They can say : "This is alien to who, and how I am. By the grace of God, I will overcome this challenge, and then - help other people transform theirs as well ".
or
any number of other variations on the theme.

Funny, how this comes up in "Mental health", as well as "General medicine" alot : People assume, erroneously, that a person such as myself without noticable outward infirmity, &/or displaying joyfulness can not possibly have "suffered", never mind like they have; Or that such a person "simply doesn't understand".

When they find out differently, invariably they say : "Oh no, you can't have suffered like that, and still be alive." or " you couldn't possibly have endured anything like that, and be as happy as you are, obviously, now ".

"Suffering" can buy you *empathy*. What you do with this empathy, and how you choose to *Lovingly :) nurture, & Guide :) others*, is an essential part of " intuitive ability ".


Annie

[Jim R]

Okay people

20+ posts in this thread and only one actual "how to" for staying in the here and now or present.

One reader made a comment about getting into the "uptime" state, which is a great "here and now in the present" state

as it so happens, I do get into the "uptime" state every day, deliberately and consciously and not surprising I stay in the present 95% of the time. I've been doing this daily for 15+ years. and I have very little internal monologe

so how do I do this you may ask???

simple I just do the reverse of Carol Erickson 3-2-1 technique for going into trance.

to do this, practice as follows:

FIRST:describe 2 different things verbally in EACH of your EXTERNAL sensory channels

I SEE x around me/above me/to the side of me and I SEE y around me/above me/to the side of me
I hear d and e around me/above ne/ on the side of me
I feel m blowing across my arm and z against my but

SECOND: repeat now with 3 different things verbally in EACH of your EXTERNAL sensory channels

once done, you'll be in uptime.

Jim

[Merlin]

Simple,
I was referring to the concept of having such an acuity level, worrying about rapport, etc.

[Kala2]

This is a first post so I am just jumping in with both feet, but I do deeply admire Erickson and his work. I think you are on a right track about his ability to be present and I have been reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle which deals with that very topic and I highly recommend it. Also, meditation is extremely helpful. I think we can all learn to be much more present and it is very much worth the effort on many levels.

[Simple Guy]

Kala,

I'm glad that you jumped in. Welcome to the forum.

[Merlin]

Hello and welcome