Derren Brown [Archive] - HypnosisForum.com and AmPac.edu Community Forums

Fashion Cat

05-25-2005, 12:12 AM

.. I have been given so much to think about! I started a search on Derren Brown about 5 hours ago, and have finally got to the end of this thread! Gah, you dont keep your posts short do you!

I was having a conversation with a friend earlier about his recent show on TV, and we came to the conclusion that either he is possessed, uses large amounts of suggestion, or is possessed! ;-) Based on that (and that I do my best thinking at night), I started a hunt for all things Brownesque. Having gotten through his secret section (good old google! though I did find it touching that no-one publically gave the answer away - very nice in today's world of hints and tips!), I came across books he had written, which led me to the more ... magical is the only word I can think of ... side to his performance.

I am a trainer by profession, so I've studied rudimentary NLP - my friend has been into that for a while so she knows far more on that topic than I do. I've started video-taping his shows so that I can watch them a couple of times, and I've picked up on him overemphasising and repeating key words (the shopping centre where everyone stuck their right arm up and the thing with Simon Pegg for instance). I've also been pleased in the latest series to see a few more of his 'failures' (at the beach, trying to get people's wallets and things).

The man is an absolute genius at what he does. I have huge admiration for it. I have to say I had never really delved beyond my initial 'well, thats got to be suggestion / hypnosis' concept to rationalise what he did. But reading these 11 pages (taking copious notes for sources and things along the way - 2 word docs and goodness knows how many opened tabbed windows) I have become more interested and excited into what he does. Yes, I agree that I would love it all to be explained in an easily-rationalised way. I am no magician - I seemed to fail even the most basic of rope tricks and things when I was younger, but this has inspired me to go grab some books and find out information for myself. Reading Don's posts have made me question, and reading the hints from others has opened a world I hadn't really considered. It is true, you never see the most obvious truth - though I truly hope my exploration doesnt result in people being given nods from cameramen to stop walking a street!

Derren Brown is an amazing performer. NLP, hypnosis, magic, confusion... whatever his techniques, it leaves me giggling and puzzling. I do believe the world could do with more of that at the minute.

Thank you all who have contributed resources and information on these pages. They wont go to waste. :-)

Linz

RussWilde

05-25-2005, 12:44 AM

For those wishing to see hear learn more about Derren Brown and his work, touring dates, etc. You may consider visiting HIS forum at;

http://www.derrenbrownforum.com/

;)

RW

Ronnie

05-29-2005, 04:41 PM

Just felt after reading pages and pages of this debate I should post something. Nice to know there are hundreds upon hundreds of other people equally fascinated by Derren Browns work as me!

I am a student of psychology and very interested in the techniques Derren uses and have complete admiration for anyone who can study anything diligently enough to be so good at it!

I am desperate to know how the techniques he uses were developed and where he leraned about them...

I know there is no simple way but would you give me pointers on this Lynz?

Cheers!

Rich

05-30-2005, 07:08 AM

I just saw Derren Brown live in Edinburgh. Very disappointing for me as I was a huge fan, and really believed that he used at least some psychological methods of suggestion etc.. Now I realise that he doesnt use any. He's basically a STAGE MAGICIAN, the psychological 'explanations' that he gives on the website and during the shows are MISDIRECTION. For example when he talks about how he has planted suggestions, and replays certain phrases that he has said to 'influence' people, it is all misdirection, he is doing standard magic tricks and covering them up with pseudo psychological explanations.

I sat next to a magician during the show and he told me how most of the tricks were done, he was constantly telling me what would happen next and getting it right. Derren ****ed up a few things due to audience participators catching him out, it was almost painful to watch.

Anyway, to reiterate and hopefully save someone else wasting too much time learning NLP and other stuff trying to recreate his techniques:

DERREN DOES NOT USE NLP OR PSYCHOLOGICAL STUFF, HE IS A STAGE MAGICIAN. The psychological stuff is MISDIRECTION.

Don

05-30-2005, 08:35 AM

Ronnie, the place to go for more information is to sites that specialize in the field of magic known as "mentalism."

If you've been through this long discussion, you will see that several people have begged to know his techniques. NOBODY has provided any genuine proof that DB has used any "psychological" techniques, hypnosis, or NLP. Those who have claimed he did so base their arguments on not being able to figure out any other way of doing what he does, although they are not mentalists themselves. They have not shared any techniques which DB used.

Those who say DB is a magician do not share his techniques because that would be breaking the "magician's code" of not telling laypeople how magic tricks are done.

Unless someone can offer new input, repetition only wastes bandwidth.

Neurotic1

05-30-2005, 12:30 PM

In last night's 'special' show, entitled 'The Gathering', Derren made many audience members entirely forget what had happened during the show. This was demonstrated following the show and without Derren being present. Derren used handshake induction more than once - although I know that at least one of those was a diversionary and not necessary for the routine.

However, Derren's method of making people forget the show can only use a form of suggestion. In my mind, and IMO, this suggestion was delivered in a manner most closely related to hypnosis. One may suggest that the technique he used was mentalism - and I would then say that it depends on your definition of mentalism and whether or not it exploits hypnotic techniques. Perhaps such a discussion would be splitting hairs...

RussWilde

05-31-2005, 12:29 AM

I quit debunking for my wn personal smug satisfaction. It's time to hang up the ego and get to work on more important things for me.

one quick observation about 'The Gathering' one woman, at the end, proclaimed;
"I am an NLP practitioner and I have no idea how Derren does what he does"

I think if you're really onfused about what Mr Brown does, then that's probably the point.

keep guessing,
RW

Oh, and any magician who sits in an audience of someone elses performance and predicts the outcome of every effect they perform to the laymen around them are no magician in my book, and if they are a magician, they're throwing away some valuable material.

AnotherUnregisteredUser

05-31-2005, 07:14 AM

I've been reading through this thread after being linked from elsewhere.
I noticed one small point that nobody's as yet brought up as regards "Newbie32"'s claims.

If he WAS hired to do some filming for the show, not only would others probably have filmed the same trick ( So even though he can't tell us a lot about the show in advance, if he told us what HE did, chances are it'd still be there but with another "Stooge" ), but legally he would have had to sign contracts regarding payment and insurance with the production company, and should have been given receipts for his payment.
So he SHOULD be able to prove, using this documentation, that he was "filmed for the show but cut out".

Unless he IS telling a pack of lies, that is...
( BTW, standard daily rate for an extra is nearer £80 than £40 - Even more if it's a speaking part. And I doubt that Derren would take each and every person that appears on his show out for dinner. How many people appear in how many episodes? )

(Certified NLP-er)

05-31-2005, 08:52 AM

(Im Not practitioner yet, but been doing it for 2years)

I would like to raise a couple of points of interest to this thread. Firstly the "seance" he performed WAS (obviously) and as he stated, a setup. But the point was to make you, the audience THINK about 'devil worship' and 'ghosts' and 'clairevoyants' and all the other (ironically!) con-men out there who prey on peoples beliefs.

And second, the study of belief (from an NLP point of view) is fascinating. Belief drives behavour. Once you know someones beliefs, you can to a certain extent change/predict behavour. This is Time Line Therapy. Look it up! This is more powerful and impressive than Derrens tricks. The ability to help people (which is what NLP is all about) in small time frames using TLP is truly powerful. NLP is just the start!!

Just a thought !

(Certified NLP-er)

05-31-2005, 09:14 AM

Oh, and with regard to the phone booth. From what I've read, (ask me if you want references) stage hypnotists require the ability to rapidly induce a suggestable state. This can be done along the lines of :

"Close your eyes and pretend really hard that you can not open them, even though you KNOW that you can"

This sets up a disociation between the concious and unconcious mind and is the "thin-edge" of the hypnotic-state 'wedge' It can induce the hypnotic phenomena in seconds. Think about the phone booth "Dont listen to this message even though you can hear it, pretend you can not even though YOU can..."....? Try it ? Find out....Practise.

JohnD

05-31-2005, 05:42 PM

Regarding NLP this is what derren brown had to say on it in his book "Absolute Magic":

"Speaking as someone who has practised, trained, studied and worked with NLP for some time, it seems to me to be a mixture of part common sense (which are the parts that no one can seriously call perculiar to NLP), part reasonably effective techniques for turning the mind from such low-level pathologies as phobias and so on, and the rest over-hyped and evangelically-packed seductive rubbish."

and on his so-called pyschological techniques:

"I have written before in Pure Effect about the importance in mentalist effects of communicating an apparent(though fictitious) method for the acheivement of the mind-reading. The more you can communicate those fictitious techniques...the more believable they will be."

So he himself puts it plain and simple that his "pyschological techniques" are fictitious.

solaris152000

06-01-2005, 02:21 AM

And thus it ends..................:(

RussWilde

06-01-2005, 09:20 AM

Thanks for that JohnD,

I'm going to bookmark your post and refer everyone I have to speak to about Mr Brown to it.

Now what can we argue about next??

RW

solaris152000

06-01-2005, 09:27 AM

On second thought, how does he put someone it a capaletic trance through magic? Im on about the video game episode here.

j0hnny#

06-01-2005, 09:31 AM

Can I just say that I watched 'the gathering' and thought the show was complete and utter sh1te. He should stick to the more arty stuf he plays about with. The big audience stuff was like watching Uri geller morphed and on coke. Painfully p1sh - his worst show yet (I should add that I liked his previous stuff). Mentalism (in that form) is so phoney it is cringe-worthy. But then so is all magic when you realises its trickery. I wonder how much shelf-life Brown still has. Geller is still going strong i.e. there are a few lovable souls out there who still think he uses his mind to bend spoons. Bless.

JohnD

06-01-2005, 01:00 PM

solaris152000

06-01-2005, 02:10 PM

Hurrah!!! Not Magic Not Magic Not Magic!!!:)

Neurotic1

06-01-2005, 02:20 PM

Solaris,

In regard to the video game episode, I think you mite find this site of some interest...it is the homepage of the guy who designed the video game...

http://www.mickgrierson.dubculture.com/

Enjoy :)
Thankyou if some people on this particular thread, who veer too far towards black or white (a trait I am often guilty of in other areas), they might not so vehemently deny the grey (am; gray) possibilties.

Don

06-01-2005, 10:48 PM

Neurotic1

06-02-2005, 11:24 AM

Using flashing images to cause people to have seizures or experience other phenomena (see, for example, the infamous Dreamachine of Brion Gysin http://www.10111.org/dreamachine/) is nothing new. Nor is it hypnosis or NLP.

Don - agreed. What phenomenon, then, would you suggest someone experiences when flashing and (mainly auditory if you read the website cited in the previous post) signals are used to induce a sleep-like state in somebody. People are not suggestible during seizures - that I know, so we can rule out a seizure. So that leaves us with a sleep like phenomenon (which is not sleep)where someone is highly suggestible. Sounds an awful lot like hypnotic trance to me...

Don

06-02-2005, 02:30 PM

DrMattJames

06-02-2005, 04:57 PM

Hi Everyone,

The thread titled Derren Brown had become too long and unmanageable. Therefore, I split the thread and took out the most recent posts and put it here in this thread. I also closed the old one so that it can be viewed but not added to.

Neurotic1

06-03-2005, 02:58 PM

Read the article on the dreamachine. It will tell you how to build a device that will produce alternative states of consciousness. There are, as I'm sure you know, various "mind machines" that also produce such states.

I have worked with the dreamachine and with various mind machines. I have also interviewed people who have worked with them. The experience seems to be the same--individual machines work with some people and not for others.

The alternate state has nothing to do with suggestibility, but is frequently very relaxing which can be used to convert the state into a hypnotic state.

As NLP has shown, people to not need to be in a hypnotic trance to be highly suggestible. Alternatively, we can assume that all states are hypnotic states and moving into any sort of alternative state of consciousness is irrelevant to suggestibility.

If you saw the show, or read the article, the purpose of the "effect" WAS to produce a state of unconsciousness. That was all it did. Then they put a person into a place where they would assume they had murdered someone.

I've seen dozens of TV mystery shows that do the same thing without the use of a video game.

In any event, they have nothing to do with hypnosis or NLP.
Ok Don, now I partly agree but would still contend that the subject who was used in Derren Brown's show was hypnotised. He was cataleptic and responsive to direct suggestions given by Derren. It is easy to try and keep avoiding the fact that this person was in a trance and it was utilised with hypnosis. By continuing to split hairs for this case, we end up in a situation where cannot accept and we must review most of what is defined as hypnosis on this forum and re-label it accordingly. Perhaps I should refute that my own practise of hypnosis is hypnosis but maybe is an 'influential chat with someone whilst they are in an altered state of consciousness'. We both agree that most of what Derren does is mentalism and not hypnosis. However, it would seem to me that, in your posts, you go so far towards that side of the debate that your arguments seem unable to accept the possibility that, from time to time, Derren does use hypnosis.
I will continue to contend that, intentionally or not, what was done with this person was hypnosis. I will also continue to contend that Derren does utilise NLP in certain aspects of his work. I absolutely agree with you that much of what he does is likely dominated by other techniques ('mentalism' being the main umbrella for these) but I cannot be so closed as to miss or deny such an excellent example of hypnosis in use.

Don

06-03-2005, 08:32 PM

Being cataleptic has nothing to do with hypnosis. It may indicate hypnosis, but it could also indicate physical illness, mental disease, etc. Getting a person to accept suggestions does not require hypnosis.

Even if it were, however, it has nothing to do with any of the many other effects used by DB which do not use the game.

As both a hypnotist and a magician, I say that DB doesn't use hypnosis or NLP because they simply aren't good for that type of performance. Have you ever seen a stage hypnotist? He or she will begin with a dozen or more people on stage and then dismiss many or most of them. If DB attempted to perform his effects simultaneously on dozens of people and then picked on just a few, I would agree with you. He doesn't.

If you are ill and don't know what's wrong, you go to a doctor--a medical expert. If you have a toothache you go to a dentist--a dental expert. If the pipes under your home are leaking you call a plumber--an expert in plumbing. If you go to a fine restaurant you expect that your meal will be prepared by a chef--an expert in food preparation.

Do you tell the plumber, dentist, and chef that they don't know what they're doing even though you are untrained in those fields? I doubt it. For over a decade, when it comes to magic, I have specialized in the study and practice of mentalism, doing the exact same type of thing DB does.

I may not be an expert in either field, but so far you've given absolutely no indication that you have any advanced training in either field. But let's just look at the field of mentalism. Please answer these simple questions:

Who was Bascomb Jones and what did he publish?
Who is Richard Webster and what does he do?
What is a billet?
What is a swami?
What is the relationship between mentalism and bizarre magic?
What is a one-ahead?
What is a Himber wallet?
There is a trick where a person puts his or her hand on the floor or a table, and then turns their wrist over 360 degrees. How is this done?
Who is Kenton Kneper?
How does one do "Psychokinetic Touches?"
What is the "Tossed Out Deck" and how does it work?
What are loops used for?

These are elementary questions that anybody who has even a basic knowledge of the subject of mentalism can answer. Right now, I would respectfully suggest that you are in the position of having a hammer and thinking that the hammer is the solution to all problems and that no matter the problem, it looks like a nail. You certainly have some knowlege of hypnosis, but that knowledge is your hammer. The problem is, you don't have a screwdriver, and if you know about mentalism, you'd see that the problem is a screw, not a nail.

How many shows by mentalists have you seen in person?

Although I've flown around the world, you seem to be insisting that the world is flat and if I fly past the horizon I'll run into sea serpents. No matter how many times I tell you that they're not there you're going to come up with a "what if" or a "but you missed...."

There are people here who know far more about hypnosis and NLP than I do. I acknowledge that and respect them for it. There are also people who know far more about mentalism and bizarre magic than do I. However, as far as I've seen, I do have more expertise on mentalism and bizarre magic than anyone who has posted on this board.

I could look in your eyes and tell you that I've hypnotized you to color. You name the color and I prove that I did this by showing a card that was sealed in an envelope that says the name of the color on it. Hypnosis? No. Magic? Yes. Did I pretend to use hypnosis to direct you away from the real methods, just as DB does? Absolutely.

Neurotic1

06-04-2005, 05:42 AM

Being cataleptic has nothing to do with hypnosis. It may indicate hypnosis, but it could also indicate physical illness, mental disease, etc. Getting a person to accept suggestions does not require hypnosis.

Yes Don, as I keep saying, I absolutely agree with most of what you are saying. I agree with the above statement - however I would suggest that getting a person to accept a suggestion whilst bypassing their critical faculty (as happened in this routine) is hypnosis. You are by far more knowledgeable about mentalism than myself. OK I appreciate your examples - you could also look at it this way;

A person is seen to be put into a cateleptic state and given suggestions to stay standing (when they are about to fall) to which they respond. They are then given various other suggestions to which they respond without question.

One observer will say 'you know what I am observing here is a guy placed into a cataleptic state, by one method or other, who is responds to suggestions without critical question - what I am seeing here is a great example of a technique which can be used in hypnosis - look I'll repeat it with another subject for you'

The other observer says 'you know what I am observing here is a guy placed into a cataleptic state, by one method or other, who is responds to suggestions without critical question - what I am seeing here is a great example of a technique which can be used in mentalism - look I'll repeat it with another subject for you'

In essence, the way that the observers might approach the effect might be different but, if they produced exactly the same result in the subject (catalepsy, bypassing of the critical faculty and response to suggestion), they are essentially inducing the same effect. Now these two observers may argue until they are blue in the face that the effect was different - one says it is all mentalism - the other it is hypnosis - but perhaps they are observing the same phenomenon which can be reproduced by both techniques.

I would turn around the hammer/nail argument at this point by throwing in a mallet. If you want to travel somewhere, you could use a car or a motorbike - because you prefer motorbikes you choose to use that but the fact is that you still travelled to the same place as you would have done in a car, you still used petrol and a road to get there but you might have insisted you were 'biking' instead of 'driving'.

I don't refute that what Derren Brown did was a technique used in Mentalism, Don, what I am saying is that in this instance the technique used could equally validly have been described as hypnotic. Hypnotic techniques may not feature much in Mentalism sure but there is overlap and sometimes the two can overlap the same territory.

What I am trying to say is that you are probably correct in describing the routine as a Mentalism act. I am also probably correct in saying that in this case, intentionally or not, it could correctly be described as hypnotic.

I am have great respect for your knowledge, Don. Did you see the routine?

Don

06-04-2005, 12:07 PM

As I'm sure you know, there is a problem that some hypnotherapists can fall into known by various names, including going into your client's trance. The idea is that the hypnotherapist--due to training, study, and experience--has an understanding of the mind that can help a client change his or her thinking pattern to something which the client and hypnotist determine would be better for the client.

Sometimes, however, the client is creative enough--and the hypnotist is either not experienced enough, overly tired and not thinking well, etc.--such that the client can bring the hypnotherapist into the client's undesired way of thinking rather than the other way around.

Respectfully, you're coming from a lack of information and knowledge and are assuming that your way is the only way because you don't know of anything else. Sorry, but I won't be pulled into an "I don't know of anything else so my way must be the only right way" argument.

The fact is, when it comes to mentalism, I speak from knowledge, training, study, and experience. I do know something you don't, but in order to protect the livelyhood of others, I don't reveal it. I know of many mentalists who would have smiled and agreed with everything you're saying and then laughed at your lack of knowledge and your being sucked into DB's schtick. I've had the decency to take you as an intelligent person deserving more.

I've told you the truth. No NLP. No hypnois. Just tricks. In my last post I gave you names of entertainers and writers, living and dead, who do the same stuff as DB. Have you looked for any of their books? I doubt it. I've named tricks that will astound you as much as anything DB does and appear to be NLP or hypnosis. Have you sought them out or bought them? I doubt it.

Most interesting to me, however, is the why. That's why I've entertained and patiently explained, repeatedly, what is going on. But I think I've figured it out.

Some people simply prefer to live in their personal dogma rather than be open to other possibilities.

So thank you for the lesson. I deeply appreciate it.

So from now on, I'll return to a mentalist mode in responding to any other comments on DB.

Oooh. You're absolutely right! It must be hypnosis or NLP. After all, there couldn't be any other way, could there? I can't think of anything else. And after all, DB does say that he knows NLP and hypnosis. He must use them!

Neurotic1

06-04-2005, 01:17 PM

Respectfully, you're coming from a lack of information and knowledge and are assuming that your way is the only way because you don't know of anything else. Sorry, but I won't be pulled into an "I don't know of anything else so my way must be the only right way" argument.

If you return to my last post, Don, you will find that I did not say that 'my' way was the only right way - nor the only possible way. You, however, did. The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

Some people simply prefer to live in their personal dogma rather than be open to other possibilities.

So thank you for the lesson. I deeply appreciate it.

Thank you for a valuable insight about you also.

Don

06-04-2005, 11:00 PM

No problem. And again, you're absolutely correct. Everything DB does is either NLP or hypnosis. I was wrong. It couldn't be anything else.

teadaze

06-05-2005, 05:59 AM

>And again, you're absolutely correct. Everything DB does is either NLP or hypnosis. I was wrong. It couldn't be anything else.

Finally Don! I knew you'd see sense! =)

solaris152000

06-05-2005, 07:28 AM

I think we all agree that Derrens tricks could be done with magic. There are some effects however which could not. The arm levatation one, and the catelepic trance. They may be easy to do, but there not done through magic.

Don

06-05-2005, 10:49 AM

Solaris, you're absolutely correct. But here's the secret: even though everything DB does could be done by magic with techniques you don't know, he really does everything using hypnosis and NLP. I mean EVERYTHING!!!! He doesn't even eat. He just uses NLP and hypnosis to convince his body that he's been fed!

So please tell everyone that even though you have little knowledge of magic, you know for a fact that everything DB does is hypnosis and NLP. Don't be shy and even guess that maybe one or two things are tricks. It's really all hypnosis and NLP. In fact, DB doesn't even breathe! He just uses hypnosis and NLP to convince his body that it has plenty of oxygen.

Please tell everyone the DB uses only NLP and hypnosis in everything he does. I'm sure that if DB ever found out about how you're helping him he would smile.

solaris152000

06-05-2005, 11:24 AM

Arm levatation (http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/M/mindcontrol/subtle/suggestion.html)

Watch the video.

Okay don, how is that done with magic?

Neurotic1

06-05-2005, 03:42 PM

No problem. And again, you're absolutely correct. Everything DB does is either NLP or hypnosis. I was wrong. It couldn't be anything else.

Don, I have thought long and hard about our discussion.

I don't have the knowledge you do of Mentalist techniques and so I concede that Derren may indeed use a technique to put someone into a 'catatonic' state and move them to another location, make them do a variety of things, etc but not use anything like hypnosis.

I guess that the problem I had with it is that, when watching the routine, without Derren making any reference to hypnosis, much of what occurred, including the 'victims' visual physiological responses, catalepsy, apparent state of suggestibility, etc just seemed so completely like hypnotic trance. Ok so maybe I fell for it. Whilst I still believe that the routine we were discussing could be done effectively using hypnosis, you are so insistent that it is a Mentalist routine which is completely divorced from and has no relation to hypnosis at all, I have to consider that this state can somehow be induced by a Mentalist technique. I will have to learn more about Mentalism. It may surprise you that I am not completely ignorant of what Mentalism is - although I clearly have not expanded my knowledge enough in this rather exciting world of magic.

For that I apologise to you.

Don

06-05-2005, 09:19 PM

I do arm levitation in workshops for hundreds of people without hypnotizing one of them.

Don

06-05-2005, 09:27 PM

I have instructions for a simple trick. A person sits in a chair. You pretend to hypnotize them and tell them they cannot rise. Try as they might, they cannot get out of the chair.

There is another trick. A small box with a handle sits on the floor. Two people are brought up: a small, young girl and a burly man. The man is supposedly hypnotized and told he cannot lift the box. The girl easily lifts it again and again. The man is incapable of lifting it no matter how hard he tries. (FYI, the first version of this trick actually prevented a war in the Middle East!)

They both sound like hypnosis. They both look like hypnosis. No cards. No sleights. But there's no hypnosis or NLP. It's just magic.

I fool people who know about mentalism every time I perform. Why? Because I make it look like it's not mentalism. I make it look like it's psychic ability or hypnosis or NLP.

However, please do tell everyone that everything DB does is hypnosis and NLP. It enhances his reputation and helps him make more money. And I'm sure it's absolutely true.

solaris152000

06-06-2005, 08:17 AM

Youve avoided the question. Ive read how that box trick was done and the war prevention thing.

However have you watched the video, youre saying you can do that with magic?

Don

06-06-2005, 11:12 AM

As I wrote, I've done that in front of audiences of hundreds.

solaris152000

06-06-2005, 01:13 PM

And make every single audience member raise their hand?

Neurotic1

06-06-2005, 03:26 PM

I have instructions for a simple trick. A person sits in a chair. You pretend to hypnotize them and tell them they cannot rise. Try as they might, they cannot get out of the chair.

There is another trick. A small box with a handle sits on the floor. Two people are brought up: a small, young girl and a burly man. The man is supposedly hypnotized and told he cannot lift the box. The girl easily lifts it again and again. The man is incapable of lifting it no matter how hard he tries. (FYI, the first version of this trick actually prevented a war in the Middle East!)

They both sound like hypnosis. They both look like hypnosis. No cards. No sleights. But there's no hypnosis or NLP. It's just magic.
Don, I once knew how to do both of those tricks. The second is all about centre of gravity and where you get the girl and man to stand. I'm sure I could refresh my memory about the first too.

However, please do tell everyone that everything DB does is hypnosis and NLP. It enhances his reputation and helps him make more money. And I'm sure it's absolutely true.
I hope that this comment is not in response to my post because I did apologise and I meant it. If not, I apologise again lol.

Don

06-06-2005, 05:01 PM

No. But most of them did. Amazing, isn't it.

Don

06-06-2005, 05:05 PM

Actually, what you're talking about concerns the ability of a strong man lifting a smaller woman or child. The way the woman or child stands and holds the arms of the man either allows him or prevents him from lifting her. That has nothing to do with either of tricks I mentioned.

No need to apologize for anything! I appreciate people who believe in something and stand for it. Yes, everything DB does is NLP and hypnosis.

Curious, though, that none of the people here who have decades of experience with hypnosis or are master pracs of NLP have revealed how to do what DB does. He must use some form of uber-hypnosis and ultra-NLP.

Pdrive

06-06-2005, 07:10 PM

> He must use some form of uber-hypnosis and ultra-NLP.

Im thinking that we organise a pilgrimage of us hypnotists/nlpers to go and learn the secrets you speak of. Maybe we can all write it down in the Book of Derren.

Pdrive

Don

06-07-2005, 08:27 AM

When Erickson was told the NLP was his technique in a nutshell, he supposedly said, "They may have gotten the shell, but they didn't get the nut." After you write the book, see if you can show a copy to DB. My guess is that he'll be as suprised about what's in there as anyone.

solaris152000

06-07-2005, 09:07 AM

>Curious, though, that none of the people here who have decades of experience with hypnosis or are master pracs of NLP have revealed how to do what DB does. He must use some form of uber-hypnosis and ultra-NLP.

So what Derren does is not possible through NLP?

Neurotic1

06-07-2005, 11:39 AM

No need to apologize for anything! I appreciate people who believe in something and stand for it. Yes, everything DB does is NLP and hypnosis.

Don, if you had actually read my posts, you would have seen that I never said everything that Derren Brown did was NLP or hypnosis. I believe he uses both but not as much as people think. I also think that, of the people who believe that he (occasionally) uses hypnosis or NLP, I have been one of the most supportive of your view that it is mostly (if not all) Mentalism.

Don

06-07-2005, 01:18 PM

Neurotic, let me repeat and make clear. The only one who knows the truth, here, is me. And the truth is that everything DB does is NLP and hypnosis. Tell everyone that truth.

solaris152000

06-07-2005, 02:24 PM

Don, what is this?
Its stupid, none belive that, your just mirroring arguments and stupidley exagerating them. Whats your aim through this?

Neurotic1

06-07-2005, 03:32 PM

Don, what is this?
Its stupid, none belive that, your just mirroring arguments and stupidley exagerating them. Whats your aim through this?
I tend to agree. It seems a little childish.

skip

06-07-2005, 04:46 PM

Yes it does appear to be damn childish!

Oh you meant Don's post!

Well I am old enough to know better but I am going to do this anyway.

I'm going to paint with a broad brush here, so take on only as much as applies to you.

Don has been extroidarinarily patient. If you arent smart enough, or savvy enough to know what working at the Magic Castle means in magician circles, then you arent savvy enough or deserving to be involved in this thread.

What does Mecca mean to a Muslum? What does Jerusalem mean to a Jew? What does Golgotha mean to a Christian? Thats what the Magic Castle means to a magician.

It means that when it comes to magic and mentalism, Don knows his ****e. Period. As the great philosopher, "The Rock" says, "It doesnt matter what YOU think."

Does that mean some sense and sensibility has been lent to in this thread, of course!

But it hasnt been heard!

Don has been responded to with:

"You dont really know."

"You must be jealous."

"Derren says he uses NLP and hypnosis."

"OK even if he doesnt, tell me how to do it, using hypnosis and NLP anyway."

"OK here is a video clip, explain it!"

"If you really want to know, here is a group that knows, OK Don explain anyway."

Lets face facts!

No one, who really knows, has explained Derren's stuff.

No one is going to, not here.

That much SHOULD be abundantly clear, but it isnt to some.

Most of the substanative posters dont post in these threads, I suspect they dont even read them. Or perhaps they do, there is a certain morbid fascination in watching a train wreck.

I know I wouldnt except I am a moderator, and my job is to read every line, no matter how boring. If I werent a moderator I wouldnt know what went on in these threads because when I read DB, I would simply move on, to substanative postings.

We finally had to split one thread because it became too tedious to track down thru the zillion links, the three hundred and twenty first response post that said, "Oh yea Don, Derren said he really does use hypnosis, so convince me he isnt telling the truth."

Don has tried, Don has been patient, informative and unambiguous.

Don is a lot more patient than I am.

Don is nicer than I am.

Don finally started mirroring the behavior that was being given him, and now because of it, he is told, he is being childish.

Yes he is, and what does it say to those he is mirroring?

But they arent savvy enough to realize it. People who have one finger in their nose and another in their rectum. Periodically they switch fingers because one goes stale.

Ill leave it to your speculation as to which is the stale one.

So I decided to act. I have sent a call to the space aileans. I have requested they come back and remove the anal probes. They have responded, and are on their way.

You know who you are.

You may escape, if you instantly transfer all DB discussion to an egroup interested in such. The space aliens have promised they will not target that group, they want to leave those people's probes in for further study.

better hurry, you havent much time. :)

skip

Don

06-07-2005, 11:51 PM

There is a story I like. It was told by a famous occultist named Aleister Crowley. It goes something like this...

They came up to me and asked for the secrets of the universe.
So I told them.
Yes, they said, but we want the real secrets of the universe.
So I told them.
They said, yes, we know, but we want the real secrets of the universe.
So I told them.
But we want the REAL secrets of the universe.
Oh, I said, that will cost you 100 British Pounds.
When they paid me, I told them...

There's a sucker born every minute.

Pdrive

06-08-2005, 01:44 AM

I regret ever getting involved in this discussion and its myraid of threads, even though my only post makes a mockery of the discussion here.

I'll interupt skips post as some sage advice (I suggest others do too) and stop even bothering to follow the train wreck.

Lets face it guys (and I name no names), NLP cannot help you control people. Period.

And I suspect that is the fascination with control, that we all go through a phase of, that is the reason certain people are so persistent in their quest for knowledge of Derren's tricks.

NLP IS NOT THE SAME AS THE FORCE. DERREN IS NOT A JEDI.

In a post in Solaris' (other) thread, I tried to suggest he get into stage hypnosis - some think this is as "real" as it gets.
I stick by that advice, but as far as Mentalism goes... I'm no expert, and its evident that Don is. Listen to him.

Don, I suggest you offer these guys the REAL secrets for $800. Money might be the catalyst needed to get these people to learn.

My last post in this thread.

Pdrive

solaris152000

06-08-2005, 07:42 AM

>NLP IS NOT THE SAME AS THE FORCE. DERREN IS NOT A JEDI.

To thoose who are not trained in the art so it would appear.

Neurotic1

06-08-2005, 12:00 PM

"Personally, Skip, I don't think I have been at all childish during this discussion although it seems to me that Don is unable to graciously accept an apology when I have the maturity to admit that he is right. Please feel free to put you tuppence worth in all you like but do me the courtesy of reading the thread first. It was not me who spat the dummy in this discussion."

Neurotic1

06-08-2005, 01:20 PM

http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/

This is a site run by Marc Hogan, a well respected Mentalist, practitioner also of NLP and hypnosis. He may not know as much as Don about Mentalism - I really don't know - perhaps he does but what I do know is that he has met Derren Brown, professionally, on more than one occasion. He does not claim that everything Derren Brown does is NLP/hypnosis. Far from it. He does, however, perform some of the few routines of Derren's that could use hypnosis and utilises alert hypnosis to do those particular routines. What's more he teaches those techniques on courses, lectures widely on therapy and has much acclaim because his techniques work. He also performs mentalism routines.
I have continually re-stated that my view is that most of what Derren does is Mentalism but that some of what he does can be performed using alert hypnosis, etc. However, some, who sit heavily on one or other side of the argument would chose to attack the possibility of alternative methods for the same 'trick' rather than explore them. They sometimes exaggerate your thoughts, making them appear less balanced than perhaps they are. Ironically they often use arguments such as 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. This holds true sometimes but can be a feeble argument when reversed.

I choose to explore the possibilities that, although I think most of what Derren does is Mentalism, a small part of it could be done with hypnosis - that's with the working definition that you never use any aspect of hypnotic suggestion in Mentalism. I am prepared to accept that I may be wrong and have indicated so in my posts. I often am.

Marc Hogan's website certainly is interesting reading -regardless of whether or not he is right. Maybe we are all wrong. Does anyone know anyone who is always right? Can there only ever be one way to skin a cat? If we are an expert in one method of cat skinning, we may be less inclined to see that there are alternate methods. This can work both ways.

IMO, we miss much in these sort of forums as regards other aspects of communication than what is written before us. Too often, it seems that threads descend into insults and attempted one-upmanship - the 'I know more than you do' or 'you have no idea what you are talking about' kind of posts. These kind of posts can come from surprising directions. I hope that regardless of how experienced or knowledgeable I am or will be, I will indulge in such actions less rather than more. We all have a different reality and we aren't always going to agree often one person is right and another wrong or sometimes there are grey areas. Surely it is possible to have a healthy debate and if one becomes tired or frustrated and wishes to stick with their opinion, they can choose to opt out of the discussion without the need to bring it down to base level. Debating and taking one opinion does not necessarily imply lack of respect for another, surely we are all just trying to understand possibilities - however, when a door of possibility opens in our minds and we reach the conclusion that the other persons stance may indeed be right, it is rather odd when they do not seem to acknowledge our small step closer to union with their understanding and that we have conceded something and gained something also but rather they persist in bringing the discussion down. That can be quite a 'tell' about someone. It is quite easy to make negative assumptions about people, I would rather try to find a balance and share rather than dominate or oppress. I don't always get that right but at least I mostly try to acknowledge when I have behaved badly or am wrong - life is more efficient and rewarding that way.

Apologies for the digression :-)

Thanks for reading.

skip

06-08-2005, 01:45 PM

Personally Neurotic,

I have read all the posts, although I certainly wish I hadent.

I said I was painting with a broad brush, and to only take on as much as applies.

I trusted you, and others, to accurately make that evaluation, for yourselves. If you took on more than you deserved, you only have yourslef to blame.

respectfully,

skip

Neurotic1

06-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Thanks for your clarification

solaris152000

06-08-2005, 02:17 PM

Marc visits and posts on this forum every now and then, I wonder if he could enlighten us.

Don

06-08-2005, 05:36 PM

Respectfully, Neurotic, you have nothing to apologize for.

I've reached a point where I don't care about who is right or wrong. I've enjoyed watching the way people so strongly want to believe in something.

So I'll just say that I hereby retract everything I posted and want to say that I now think everything DB does is either through hypnosis or NLP at a level that goes beyond that of anyone else, which is why no hypnotists or NLPers--even those with decades of experience--has explained how he is able to use hyp and NLP to achieve his results every time.

solaris152000

06-09-2005, 06:09 AM

My beliefs are what is he does could be done through NLP, Im sorry if I comunicated that badly.

Being able to do Derren Brown stuff is such a great iniciative to learn NLP.

Cassandra 8

06-09-2005, 07:57 AM

My beliefs are what is he does could be done through NLP, Im sorry if I comunicated that badly.

Being able to do Derren Brown stuff is such a great iniciative to learn NLP.So, it boils down to this perfectly reasonable question: is it possible to use NLP as the basis for a profound mentalism act.

The answer is: yes, but for the most part it's the most difficult, frustrating and and downright dodgy way of achieving most of it, but if you really are dead set on doing it that way then go for it. The problem you'll have is that unless you're world class at NLP, your effects will never look as good as if you do them using easier methods and spend the saved time on a convincing act.

solaris152000

06-09-2005, 08:04 AM

Okay......:(

Neurotic1

06-09-2005, 03:17 PM

So I'll just say that I hereby retract everything I posted and want to say that I now think everything DB does is either through hypnosis or NLP at a level that goes beyond that of anyone else, which is why no hypnotists or NLPers--even those with decades of experience--has explained how he is able to use hyp and NLP to achieve his results every time.
Don, as Derren himself says, most of what he does is Mentalism. I've been saying that so it seems odd that you feel the need to retract your contention that any of what he does is mentalism. That's why I didn't understand your response to my postings.

Don

06-10-2005, 12:36 PM

Besides being a hypnotist, I'm also a mentalist. At first, I approached this from the point of view of being a hypnotist and wanting to share from my knowledge in other fields. When this was rejected in whole or in part, I have, for this thread, changed to a mentalist persona.

Different mentalists present themselves in different ways. Some are simply magicians and admit it. Others present the bizarre and bring back the awe and even terror of the unknown. Still others present their performances and extended aspects of the mind. Far be it from me to deny another performer's schtick. In fact, I'll even add to it.

DB? He lies when he says he uses mentalism. It's so you won't learn his real secrets of NLP and hypnosis. Those techniques are the basis for all he does.

solaris152000

06-10-2005, 12:59 PM

Neurotic1

06-10-2005, 02:12 PM

>DB? He lies when he says he uses mentalism. It's so you won't learn his real secrets of NLP and hypnosis. Those techniques are the basis for all he does.

Don, I find that quite patronising really and Im sure lot of other people do aswell. We know you don't belive that is the case. Anyway, Im giving up on Derren Brown. Im not going to get anywhere. Its obsrtucting my learning of NLP and hypnosis.

Don I'm going to agree with you. You know more than me in both areas.
Derren Brown does not use NLP
Solaris, some people are consistent in that they are inflexible - but will often not recognise this in themselves whilst being quick to find similar fault in others and then blame their inflexibility on their own perceived inflexibility of others. Ironic don't you think? When someone flips from one extreme to another this is a demonstration of inflexibility and IMO - possibly demonstrates either a bizarre lack of maturity, lack of intelligence or some other (subconsciously) perceived secondary gain apparently out of character with their self-advertised ability. In this respect, I am not referring to you. We all have our faults and some of us more readily admit them. I am not going to waste my time discussing this topic with people who have not seen the aspects of Derren's work I make reference to or who cannot hold an adult discussion.

Derren Brown is a Mentalist, however, I believe that some of what he does can be replicated using hypnosis and that aspects of what he does could overlap with NLP and hypnosis. Can he do everything using hypnosis - no I think not - I don't think he needs to either when he has other easier tricks to use. Can he 'influence' people as much as he does with NLP no I don't think so - although I believe he uses influential tactics similar to those in NLP on occasion. Derren can be seen to use what would appear to be pattern-interrupt inductions on occasion but this may all be part of the act - who really knows and who cares. The fact is that regardless of how Derren does any of his routines, some of them can be replicated with artful hypnosis. It takes an open mind to realise this and perhaps one without a secondary agenda.

Just over a year ago, despite having been very successful with hypnotherapy, I had a phase of doubting that hypnosis was anything other than an elaborate trick. How I have moved forward since then.. Everyone develops at their own pace.

Good luck with advancing your NLP and hypnosis skills Solaris. Don't be drawn too far away from your goals by other's negative agendas. Hypnosis certainly won't help you to be able to do everything that Derren does but you'd be surprised by what you can achieve with it.

Don

06-10-2005, 02:25 PM

It's not meant to be patronizing at all. If you wish to take it that way, of course, that's up to you. We all see things the way we will.

It is meant to be just what it is--a mentalist supporting another mentalist. Period. If I add a bit to the mystery of DB, so much the better.

solaris152000

06-10-2005, 02:37 PM

Yes but no-one belives what you said, even yourself. So whats the point in saying it?

Don

06-10-2005, 08:22 PM

Say something often enough and people will believe it.

Unregistered57

05-11-2006, 08:52 AM

Oh, and with regard to the phone booth. From what I've read, (ask me if you want references) stage hypnotists require the ability to rapidly induce a suggestable state.

References would be great, thanks!

What is (or do you suppose is) the script used by Derren Brown to put random phone booth answerers into a collapsing trance sleep in 5 to 20 seconds? ? ?

Warmest Regards.

;Diego;

;D;

Unregistered57

05-11-2006, 09:54 AM

Derren Brown is an amazing performer. NLP, hypnosis, magic, confusion... whatever his techniques, it leaves me giggling and puzzling. I do believe the world could do with more of that at the minute.
Linz

I agree, Derren Brown's feats appear spectacular.

What is (or what do you suppose is) the script and tonality used by Derren Brown to put random phone booth answerers into a gently collapsing trance sleep-like state in 5 to 20 seconds? ? ?

Have you tried this? With failure? With success?

Warmest Regards.

;Diego;

;D;

Reply With Quote

Don

05-11-2006, 10:04 AM

I agree, Derren Brown's feats appear spectacular.

What is (or what do you suppose is) the script and tonality used by Derren Brown to put random phone booth answerers into a gently collapsing trance sleep-like state in 5 to 20 seconds? ? ?

Have you tried this? With failure? With success?

Warmest Regards.

;Diego;

;D;

Reply With Quote

Script:

See that guy waving off camera? He'll give you 150 Euros if you pretend to go into a trance and fall down.

welshguymikey

05-17-2006, 03:37 AM

Script:

See that guy waving off camera? He'll give you 150 Euros if you pretend to go into a trance and fall down.

i dont believe derren brown uses stooges, however i do believe that his effects would be nowhere near as spectacular if the audience saw the setup and inductions.
Derren brown is very clever but he cant control minds. I do have one possible explanation for this effect on my pc but it is copyrighted so i doubt i can post it here in any way.
I have to say i do believe derren spoke to that guy before he answered the telephone but i dont think he was paid to be a stooge.

Simon

05-21-2006, 06:08 AM

I found this video very interesting:

thehypnotist

05-27-2006, 03:42 PM

Derren Brown is an amazing performer. NLP, hypnosis, magic, confusion... whatever his techniques, it leaves me giggling and puzzling. I do believe the world could do with more of that at the minute.

welshguymikey

05-30-2006, 07:54 AM

i know how to perform most of derren browns effects, cant say them for copyright reasosn tho and im not saying this is the way he himself does it but it is very possible and he certainly does in some cases to use magicians props and not nlp/hypnosis.
Im sure in myself however that he does use nlp/hypnosis from time to time, without stooges or dam forgotten the term, not a stooge but they know its false i.e go along with it, i can see no other way for it and have heard no otherway for it, my favourites being when he made people on the streets give him their wallets etc and at the bookies when he won o na losing ticket.
Derren brown is an extremey clever and talented man, my main idol infact and it was he that got me into mentalism, nlp and hypnosis in the first place.

Don

05-30-2006, 10:13 AM

I agree with your assessment, WGM. I would say that he uses a guise of NLP/hypnosis as misdirection so people aren't looking for the actual methods. It's a great technique and a wonderful presentation.

Figaro

07-18-2006, 08:40 AM

DB? He lies when he says he uses mentalism. It's so you won't learn his real secrets of NLP and hypnosis. Those techniques are the basis for all he does.
As a "mentalist" as you put it, why are you perpetuating this nonsense about doing everything the long, tricky and ultimately unreliable way around?

It's clear that you haven't read any his superlative lecture books, especially "Pure Effect", or watched The Devil's Picturebook lecture video (soon on DVD). These aren't matrials for the public any more than "13 Steps to Mentalism" or "Royal Road to Card Magic" are for the public, but they're out there and available for a reasonable retail price from many fine magical emporia. These things should be aparent to you... as a mentalist, that is.

Maybe you've watched clips of Trick of the Mind and seen the end result of many hours of making his and Andy Nyman's work look exactly how they and Objective Productions wish you to perceive it. Naughty boy. You should buy the DVDs and watch them in full.

Oh, and he's a really nice guy, despite the need to hide behind a goatee. And he's nice to parrots too, even naming his own version of the pass after one.

Simon

07-18-2006, 09:26 AM

Figaro

07-18-2006, 03:58 PM

I can not agree with you Figaro. His books are mostly about how you present your show to audience. 13 steps is about exact techniques - and the techniques are secret, not the HOW you deal with audience.

Then don't agree Simon, but suffer derision. I'll wager you have not read "Pure Effect", or "Absolute Magic", or rather, you've read an online description maybe both and this is the basis for your reply. If you do have these marvelous volumes, I appologise, but suggest you re-read them,

"Absolute Magic" is indeed subtitled "A model for powerful close-up performance", for that is what it is, but "Pure Effect" is both psychological techniques, mostly in part one, and magic effects in part two including the astonishing "Plerophoria". "The Devil's Picturebook" is a lecture video, as i told you earlier. It details several complete routines.

Corinda's 1968 work does indeed include methods - techniques as you interestingly and oddly call them... but to a very great extent, steps 9, 11 and 12 are intimately concerned with the audience - all mentaliesm is - and step 13 is certainly ALL about it, wouldn't you agree? What with it being entitled "Patter and Presentation".