Any good Belief change techniques?

[Thor]

A major factor to create change are personal beliefs, yet this topic does not appear to have ever been discussed on this forum.
If any of you have had positive experiences after belief therapy, please share them with the rest of us. Also if anyone knows of any good techniques that really work, do post them here.
Any good books/audios that specifically deal with belief change would be welcome.

[Cassandra 8]

A major factor to create change are personal beliefs, yet this topic does not appear to have ever been discussed on this forum.
If any of you have had positive experiences after belief therapy, please share them with the rest of us. Also if anyone knows of any good techniques that really work, do post them here.
Any good books/audios that specifically deal with belief change would be welcome.What do you mean by belief?

[Youaregettingsleepy]

I am assuming he is talking about Meta programs, but you should never assume right?:)

[Merlin]

> but you should never assume right?

Better to assume wrong?

[Merlin]

Virtually everything we talk about here is for changing beliefs.

[Youaregettingsleepy]

Merlin you just twisted my mind into a pretzel.

What was the meaning of that?:)

[Thor]

Beliefs are thoughts/perceptions that we hold to be truth.
eg. Peoples personal opinions about their abilities, limits and capacity. Come on guys, you know what I mean.
I'm referring to core beliefs that may be contrary to a persons best interests.
Just found a book by Dilts, Pathways to health and wellbeing.

[skip]

Thor,

Ok so you want a discussion about beliefs, and you have this belief that the discussions we have had to date, arent about the so called 'core beliefs'. As in beliefs that arent as deeply embedded or as pervasive as the beliefs that you want to talk about.

So why dont you define what you would consider to be a core belief verses a superficial one, and give an example.

Then you might want to explore how one would go about changing that belief, and how that would be easier or more difficult than changing a superficial belief.

I am sure something like that would generate more than enough 'belief discussion' to last you for a bit. But then that is just a superficial belief of mine and no doubt could be more easily changed than could mine that I am a good person. Or could it?

Incidentally do you have any thoughts or perceptions that you do not hold to be true?
Im just trying to figure out what you miught have, that is a belief, as opposed to anything else.

skip

[Neurotic1]

Virtually everything we talk about here is for changing beliefs.
Absolutely agree with Merlin; isn't that what hypnosis and NLP are all about? It can be quite difficult finding a therapeutic intervention where beliefs are not challenged or changed in one form or another - but you don't have to believe that if you don't want to.

[Merlin]

Youaregettingsleepy,

Beliefs are what hypnotists work with.
The CF is something that protects beliefs.
2+2=7 is a belief. Not necessarily a good one, but if you were taught this and you believe it true, then your CF will do everything it can to protect that belief.
We use hypnosis to bypass the CF to change a belief. Perhaps to 2+2=4.

Perhaps you believe that spiders are harmful. uh oh, phobia.
Change the belief, spiders are cute. End the phobia.

[Thor]

skip,

Actually,what I did want were belief change techniques. There seems to be very little material about doing something like this. There have been quite a few discussions on the newsgroups re belief change with little or no emphasis on the actual techniques and their efficiency.
Do they really work?

>>So why dont you define what you would consider to be a core belief verses a superficial one, and give an example.
A core belief may be "I am bad at doing x", a superficial belief "Sometimes everything works as I expect".

Merlin has got to the point. But I don't know what a CF is?
>>The CF is something that protects beliefs.
2+2=7 is a belief. Not necessarily a good one, but if you were taught this and you believe it true, then your CF will do everything it can to protect that belief.
We use hypnosis to bypass the CF to change a belief. Perhaps to 2+2=4.

So, would you say that beliefs cannot be changed without hypnosis?

>>Perhaps you believe that spiders are harmful. uh oh, phobia.
Change the belief, spiders are cute. End the phobia.
You make it sound very easy and exactly what I wanted an answer to.
Yesss, so how do I do this???

I have found that ocassionally I am able to bypass the core belief so I wanted to know what exactly allowed me to do it?
When I am able to do something that I was unable to do before, by monitoring my internal thoughts, I find that my thoughts are supporting my ability. So why doesn't this happen everytime?

[Merlin]

Hypnosis bypasses the CF and thus allows belief change. It's not the only way to change beliefs, just a convenient one because it uses language.
Another way is anchors. Another way is submodality changes.
Those aren't the only ways either.

>There have been quite a few discussions on the newsgroups re belief change with little or no emphasis on the actual techniques

It's assumed at the "newsgroups" that you already know the methods: hypnosis or NLP. Those are not training sites.

[skip]

Thor,

Well this one skipped around a bit, so Ill parse it and respond in-between the bits.

"Actually,what I did want were belief change techniques... Do they really work?"

Yes they work, and well. You are asking however for some rather lengthly bits of information. How about I give you some names of a couple of specific techniques and you try and research them? Ill give you a couplle of starting points.

Sleight Of Mouth (SOM) there are anywhere from 12 to 24 SOM patterns. Legend has it that Richard Bandler was noted for never losing an argument, in fact always converting the other person, to his point of view. So someone 'studied' what Richard did, and codified the SOM patterns. I learned 16 when I was just an egg, and they have been more than sufficent for my purposes. No belief can survive these patterns, when done well, none. SOM's are great at destroying a belief, but do not build a new one in its place. Not that a new one is necessary, but it can be important depending on your outcome. "Sleight of Mouth" Robert Dilts.

Reframing alters your experience of something. The entire gestalt of the thing is changed. When meaning is transformed, as in reframing, old beliefs (central and supporting) must be changed to support the new understanding. It happens in an instant. I like reframing because it is generative as well as remedial in effect. It is not necessarily as easy as SOM's. "Reframing" 'NLP and the Transformation of Meaning' Bandler and Grinder.

">>So why dont you define what you would consider to be a core belief verses a superficial one, and give an example. A core belief may be "I am bad at doing x", a superficial belief "Sometimes everything works as I expect"."

Now I would tend to define both of those as somewhat superficial, because both are reflecting on something external. "I am a bad/good person." seems to me to be more core than, "I am bad/good at ..." Think of consciousness relflecting back on itsself. (Bateson & Korzibsky)

"Merlin has got to the point. But I don't know what a CF is?"

Critical Factor (CF) that which allows you to make judgements.

"So, would you say that beliefs cannot be changed without hypnosis?"

If you believe it is all hypnosis, then the answer is yes. Think of it this way, you have aquired and changed beliefs all your life. How many times were you hypnotized? None, some, all? What if the trance you are currently in is the deepest and most profound one? Wouldnt that mean that hypnosis is more of a "waking up"? Think about it, it has its possibilities.

">>Perhaps you believe that spiders are harmful. uh oh, phobia.
Change the belief, spiders are cute. End the phobia. You make it sound very easy and exactly what I wanted an answer to. Yesss, so how do I do this???"

Google search for NLP's Phobia (Cure) Pattern, it is well published.

"I have found that ocassionally I am able to bypass the core belief so I wanted to know what exactly allowed me to do it? When I am able to do something that I was unable to do before, by monitoring my internal thoughts, I find that my thoughts are supporting my ability. So why doesn't this happen everytime?"

When your beliefs, values, and behaviors are all 'aligned' you are said to be congruent. This means that your total being supports what you are doing. I liken this to Abraham Maslo's "Actualized Man". In my world complete congruence is 'nirvana'.

When you are incongruent it is because you have belief and or values confliting with your outcome(s), and therefore perform behaviors that sabatoge your goals.

A good NLP ecology check will point out these descrepencies or conflicts, and once pointed out, they are subject to 'manipulation. Look for "Well Formed Outcome" or "Clarity Model", for examples of good ecology checks.

Any goal or outcome you set, should be subjected to a good "WFO", that is if you want to achieve the outcome.

skip

[Thor]

Thanks skip, that was an enlightening post. You seem to be an experienced practitioner.
Maybe I should have put a bit more info on my background. I have read about 30 NLP/self help books, most were of zero value. The structure of Magic 1 & 2 and Bandlers Time for a Change were somewhat better, and Using your Brain.
The most outstanding of all was Tom Vizzini's 3D mind followed by Tony Robbins and Shad Helmstetter. I know the NLP theory but my practical experience is almost none.
I have ordered The Dilts book, Sleight of Mouth.
The phobia cure, I think works on phobias only and is visual. I'm referring to the Swish here. I suppose the phobia could be similar to a belief, so a new question for you.

How do I do an auditory Swish? And are there more effective/faster ways to create new beliefs?

>>When your beliefs, values, and behaviors are all 'aligned' you are said to be congruent
How do I find out which belief changed and more importantly, how did it change? Something naturally shifted it, but what? I'm sure I didn't do a Swish.
skip and Merlin, your thoughts on this, please.

[skip]

Thor,

"Thanks skip, that was an enlightening post. You seem to be an experienced practitioner."

So it might seem.

"Maybe I should have put a bit more info on my background. I have read about 30 NLP/self help books, most were of zero value. The structure of Magic 1 & 2 and Bandlers Time for a Change were somewhat better, and Using your Brain.
The most outstanding of all was Tom Vizzini's 3D mind followed by Tony Robbins and Shad Helmstetter. I know the NLP theory but my practical experience is almost none."

I would surmise that therein lies some of your difficulty.

"I have ordered The Dilts book, Sleight of Mouth."

OK

"The phobia cure, I think works on phobias only and is visual."

That isnt my experience, it uses all the senses.

" I'm referring to the Swish here. I suppose the phobia could be similar to a belief, so a new question for you."

Then you are not referring to the phobia cure. And the swish is done in all modalities but you must perform the swish part in the dominant modality the client uses in the context.

"How do I do an auditory Swish?"

Have you ever turned the volume up or down on a radio? What would happen if a recording engineer combined a fade in with a fade out of two different pieces of music?

"And are there more effective/faster ways to create new beliefs?"

This is a nonsensical question to me. Beliefs are formed and lost and modified all the time. Some are done deliberately, some are done haphazardly. All occurr fast. I can create a new belief, in someone, in one sentence, so can you. All beliefs are learnings, and the mind learns really really fast. So to me, your question really reads as, "Can I teach someone something really fast?" The answer is, "Yes." And the answer to the follow up question is, "There are thousands of ways, all depanding on the individual, the context, the individuals current beliefs about the subject, and how badly that individual desires something that involves the new belief."

">>When your beliefs, values, and behaviors are all 'aligned' you are said to be congruent. How do I find out which belief changed and more importantly, how did it change? Something naturally shifted it, but what? I'm sure I didn't do a Swish."

I cannot answer this question for you, and if you think about it, you will understand why. Look into ecology, learn a clarity model. Then you will have taught your unconscious to red flag beliefs that dont fit your outcomes, and you will consciously know what they are at that point. then you will make a decision if the goal is more worthy than the belief. If so, then change the belief. If not modify or abandon the goal. I used to have my unconscious flag belief changes, that occurred in trainings, in blue, so I could review them later. But there got to be so many, it was too tedious, so I just forgot about it. All I really care about is, that my beliefs support my outcomes. I really could care less what changed to what. If they dont support my outcomes I dont need them, and if they do, it doesnt matter what they are, or even if they are true, or not.

You apparently have a fair amount of book learning, and not necessarily always from credible sources. Look to Merlin's suggested reading list, or to mine (below) for a better resource. Andy Bradbury has an excellent NLP book review site, avail yourself of that ... http://www3.mistral.co.uk/bradburyac/

There are nuances that arent apparent from just reading, so dont limit yourself to just that. Take a training from someone reputable. How many books would you need to read in order to throw or hit a baseball well?

skip

Reading list:

. This list is by no means exhaustive and changes from time to time according to whim.

1. NLP

Ok the classic text here is "Frogs into Princes"; most of the old classics by Grinder & Bandler as well as the old crowd of NLPers are fantastic. So "Reframing", "Using your brain for a change", "Heart of the Mind", "Sleight of Mouth", “NLP The New Technology of Achievement” “Magic of NLP Demystified”, etc are all great. The books that started it all were "Structure of Magic Vol 1 & 2", these are more academic reads but still well worth the read if you want to truly understand the heart of what makes NLP, or hypnosis work - the structure of people's thinking!

As a starter I'd recommend read "Frogs into Princes" and work you way into the others over time (especially after you have taken some NLP training), that’s how I began.

2. Hypnosis

OK there are many more great books in this category than you can shake a stick at. So forgive me if I keep the list relatively brief (I could go way OTT on this!)

i. Trance Formations (Grinder & Bandler): this is still one of the best intro texts for hypnosis and language. It’s simple to read, elegant, and presents some very useful and powerful models of hypnosis.

ii. Therapeutic Trances (Stephen Gilligan): an absolute masterpiece of
Ericksonian hypnosis. Gilligan is the man that did a full deep trance ID with Erickson (wheelchair, paralysis & everything!) back in the 70s and it really shows in this masterful exposition of hypnosis. It’s a harder, more advanced read however.

iii. Training Trances (Overdurf & Silverthorn): This is another classic book in the "Trance Formation" vein. The whole book is written in hypnotic language and is a very elegant description of the foundational Ericksonian patterns of trance. Very nice double induction at the beginning using some very elegant phonological ambiguities.

iv. Monster's & Magical Sticks - There's No such Thing as Hypnosis? (Steven Heller): This is a great light read about hypnosis, again demonstrating Ericksonian hypnosis at work in many different situations. Its a lovely read and demonstrates some of the principles very elegantly. Not so much of a how to book.

v. Erickson's Published Papers CD-Rom (available from
www.anglo-american.co.uk): This is an absolute treasure, a bit pricey but worth it. These people have published on CD-Rom pretty much every paper that Erickson ever published, plus a few unpublished ones. There are some real gems to be gleaned from arguably the world's greatest master of hypnosis. This is NOT for beginners, as it can get very technical and at times requires some wading through, but persistence is rewarding!

vi. Therapeutic Metaphor by David Gordon. This book is in textbook style so it isn’t an especially easy read. But it does teach you how to craft a metaphor to have therapeutic results for a specific client. It will also give you insight to Virginia Satirs use of categories.

vii. “Hypnotic Suggestions and Metaphors by D. Corydon Hammond PhD. A very comprehensive book giving numerous varied methods of working with different client problems. For example there are over 20 different approaches to pain management. The chapter on forming hypnotic and post hypnotic suggestion is limited but very good with what it did include.

viii. Hypnotic Realities Erickson and Rossi Awesome detailed dissection of Erickson doing trance work with explanation and commentary by both Erickson and Rossi as each suggestion is given.

ix. Hypnotherapy Erickson and Rossi Analysis of Erickson doing casework.


The above is what I would recommend as a core library for any NLP/Hypnotist. There are thousands of other great texts however (e.g. Elman's "Hypnotherapy", Esdaille's "Mesmerism in India", Sidis' "The Psychology of Suggestion" and Most of Ernest Rossi's books on clinical subjects)

3. Hypnotherapy

- see above

4. Stage Hypnosis

There’s is really only one classic that tops them all in this category:

The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis (Ormond McGill): Includes pretty much everything you need to know about stage hypnosis from cover to cover (including a few sample shows!) It’s a great light read (though repetitive at times). Ormond is very much an "Old world" hypnotist into his mysticism and mesmerism - which is fine if you ascribe to that, and quaint if you do not. Much great advice is given on all aspects of a show, from understanding hypnosis, to understanding showmanship (NOT the same thing!) and even advertising you.

5. Clinical Hypnosis

Its easier to recommend authors than actual books in this field, so here goes: Ernest Rossi, Jeff Zeig, Stephen Gilligan, Erickson, Michael Yapko, Jay Haley, Andre Weitzenhoffer, Erickson (usually co-authored with another person)

6. Altered States of consciousness

is. Clark Hull's "Hypnosis and Suggestibility" is an old classic that details almost 1000 experiments in hypnosis. A great read, but NB Hull is the one that made the original mistake in the 30s which has plagued hypnosis ever since - he tried to pigeon hole trances by putting a standard induction on a record and then concluding that only 20% of people can go into a deep trance. Hogwash! 20% can only go into a deep trance using only that SPECIFIC method! So watch out for that mistake.

ii. Erickson's Hypnotic Realities is again a fascinating though slightly
Academic text.

iii. Mind Games (Masters & Houston): A great collection of hypnotic
adventures and explorations based on Ericksonian hypnosis.

iv. Extreme Spirituality (Tully Berkan): defined for me the path from belief, to certainty, to action.

v. Holographic Universe (Michael Talbot): Wow, this book combines the theories of two premier researchers, one a physicist and the other a psychologist to form a coherent theory about reality and how we create it.

vi. Miracles of Mind Russell Targ and Jane Katra PhD This is the most definitive book on the interconnectedness of the universe, what Jung called the collective unconscious. It also has the best references to double blind studies on ESP, PSI, and remote viewing. Explicit instructions on how to remote view yourself and how to enhance your ability. Fabulous discussion on time, and its properties and its relation to precognition. And then Jane takes up on energy healing. Absolute must read, and the references cited are a trail filled with gold nuggets!

vii "Prometheus Rising" Robert Anton Wilson" Without a doubt one of the best at teaching the difference between reality and belief and how belief shapes and creates your reality, both tangible and intangible. Each chapter has a couple of "exercises" so that you actually get to experience the things taught in that chapter. Don’t read this if you like your current illusion.

viii "The Hiram Key" Knight and Lomas. Take care with this book! By taking a historically accurate look at the origin of Christianity you are liable to have your faith in 'Christianity' severely tested, or your faith in any other religion for that matter.

ix. “A Short History of Nearly Everything” Bill Bryson Excellent and entertaining synopsis of development and current scientific thought, from the ‘beginning’ of time to now. Excellent

[Thor]

>>You apparently have a fair amount of book learning, and not necessarily always from credible sources. There are nuances that arent apparent from just reading, so dont limit yourself to just that. Take a training from someone reputable. How many books would you need to read in order to throw or hit a baseball well? <<
This IS the problem and I realize it, thats why I'm here. Taking a training is impossible, there isn't anyone reputable. A couple of seminars I did attend were useless. I could have learned more from 2 books at 10% of the cost and time.On my own I have attempted some of the NLP excercises, changing submodalities, etc with little or no success.
>>There are nuances that arent apparent from just reading
Could you elaborate on this a bit more ?

>>You apparently have a fair amount of book learning, and not necessarily always from credible sources
To me, the real test of how good something is, is whether it works. If NLP or EFT or XYZ is going to help I'm all for it. The fact is that the 3 authors I mentioned earlier have written books that I USED, and their methods WORKED.
What's the point of reading all the books in the list if after reading them, I am not able to use it to accomplish my goals? And isn't the purpose of this forum to utilize the experience and wisdom of the senior members?
I do understand a lot of people may not want to post certain things on a publicly accessible board, and trade secrets exist in every field. So my email is thorstef2003@yahoo.com
BTW, why is everyone so silent on this topic? I think it could benefit a lot of people who are asking the very same question, though worded differently, on other threads.

[skip]

Thor,

"This IS the problem and I realize it, thats why I'm here. Taking a training is impossible, there isn't anyone reputable. A couple of seminars I did attend were useless."

Interesting. Some, in fact a lot of us, managed to find reputable trainers, and even have become reputable trainers ourselves, or so we surmise. I suppose we could be mistaken. Could it be, that you have just had bad luck, or that your selection criteria is somehow faulty?

"I could have learned more from 2 books at 10% of the cost and time.On my own I have attempted some of the NLP excercises, changing submodalities, etc with little or no success."

It is difficult to pick up experiential knowledge from reading, even if you do the exercises, because you have no one, who knows how to do them properly, to supervise.

Now I am not doubting your experience at all. BUT I am listening to you as you express two beliefs, based on your experience. "You cant be trained because there are no reputable trainers, and you cant learn it from books." That doesnt bode well for you ever learning does it?

">>There are nuances that arent apparent from just reading. Could you elaborate on this a bit more ?"

Ill give you an example. Submodalities arent sub to anything. Submodalities are actually meta to the primary experience. Books dont point this out, and most trainings dont either. It is something that can be noticed, as you experience working with submodalities. Now the NLP patterns have points in them where your state (primary verses meta) is crucial to the pattern working. This is not always pointed out in books, and it is critical to the patterns working. In self help, it is not easy to do the pattern (which means you are meta), while trying to stay primary, which is critical to the pattern working. Try setting an anchor on yourself. There are tricks or workarounds, but you get my drift.

"To me, the real test of how good something is, is whether it works. If NLP or EFT or XYZ is going to help I'm all for it. The fact is that the 3 authors I mentioned earlier have written books that I USED, and their methods WORKED."

See this is to be expected. You know there must be some fire generating all that smoke. Yet you havent been able to do it ourself, so you naturally begin to wonder ...

"What's the point of reading all the books in the list if after reading them, I am not able to use it to accomplish my goals?"

None, unless your interest is purely acedemic.

"And isn't the purpose of this forum to utilize the experience and wisdom of the senior members?"

That may well be the purpose a beginner has for being on this forum. It may not be the purpose a senior member has fior being on this forum. But then again it may. I personally would hesitate to make an assumption, about the purpose of anyone.

"I do understand a lot of people may not want to post certain things on a publicly accessible board, and trade secrets exist in every field. So my email is thorstef2003@yahoo.com"

Thats an interesting assumption. It assumes that were I hesitant about revealing some 'secret knoweledge' publically, I would unhesitatingly send it to you privately.

Is it possible that there might be reasons other than 'secret knoweledge' that would prevent me, or anyone else, from posting the 'secrets of the universe'?

How about the limitations of conveying something, such as how a banana tastes via words on a screen? How about the limitation, of not being able to see and calibrate to what you are actually doing, and having to rely only on what you report that you think you are doing? We are dealing with subjective experience here Thor, and you can only report on your conscious experience and understanding. Do you percieve the limitation?

"BTW, why is everyone so silent on this topic? I think it could benefit a lot of people who are asking the very same question, though worded differently, on other threads."

I am going to assume this is rhetorical, because it seems rather foolish to ask someone who IS discussing it, to mind read why others are not.

Now Thor, as I see it you have a few choices. You can conclude that we are all asses and/or frauds. You can persevere in your belief that there are no reputable trainers. You can continue to expect from books and or forums that which they are least capable of delivering.

Or you can rethink what you want, and what you expect from where.

Ill tell you how I started although it most certainly isnt the only way, nor is it likely the best way.

I first read "TranceFormations" by Bandler and Grinder, and I concluded that if even half of what these guys claimed was true, it was something I wanted. I then got on the internet and by the magic of google found Carmine Baffa, and another fellow. Both had upcoming trainings, and Carmine was 6 hours less driving time, so I picked him. (Take particular note of the stellar selection process)

I went to Carmine's training knowing only that I wanted to learn, and afraid that it might all be fraud. I even told some close friends that if I came home, and tried to clean out my bank account, to have me stopped.

Carmine, at the beginning, went around the room and asked everyone why they were there. I realize now that he wanted to ensure that everyone achieved their outcomes for the training. As people answered, he would question, and restate, and often expand or clarify, what the person said was their outcome. I realize now that he was using a clarity model to ensure that each of us had achievable, verifiable, ecological, outcomes. At the time, I just thought he was getting to know everyone. Now I understand that Carmine's training started well before we even went into the meeting room, and extended after we left, as well.

See Carmine was actually doing what he was going to teach us to do. He was walking the talk. When he got to me, and asked, "Why are you here?", I had had plenty of time to revise my outcome, but I still didnt have the requisite information to so do. All I knew was that they might trance me out, put me in a closet for the weekend (see at that time I had all the misconceptions to rely on), send me home, with a post hypnotic suggestion that I had learned a lot, and send money.

So I told Carmine, "If what I have read is true, I want to learn this. I want to remember, and be able to use, everything that I am exposed to this weekend." Carmine replied, "OK, anything else?" "No that will be sufficent."

During that weekend, I saw and experienced behavioral change that either had to be either 'real magic' or fraud, there was no other explanation. Carmine then taught us how to duplicate the 'magic'. On Sunday night, during the 5 hour drive back to East Tennisshoe, I must have replayed every word, re-experienced every moment, of the entire siminar seven or eight times.

There is more but I am running long. Needless to say I was hooked, and am still glad of it. The bank account is fine.

You can learn a lot about making love from a book. But book learning wont make you a good lover. Neither will practicing with a sorry lover, even tho it is better than nothing or pure book learning. Neither will discussing making love on forums. It all can help you expand and improve on your experience, and give you some ideas, but if you have little or no experience, it is all theory. Nothing will substitute for learning from a quality lover. "You need to be kissed, often, and by someone who knows how!" Rhett Butler

I hope that helps,

skip

[solaris152000]

May I just comment how much I am enjoying reading this thread. Learnings fun:p

And I'd also like to recomend Introducing NLP. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1855383446/qid=1116773933/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-3886830-2930028)
That has some goodbackground information on beleifs, and phobia cures. I think thats where I learnt the swish as well. Either way, I enjoyed that book. And I would put it on the 'Must read' list.

That 'Holographic Universe' book looks intresting skip. I might buy it.


Solaris

[solaris152000]

Sorry I missed this. This may directly help you more. http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/ShowArticles.asp?ANUM=28

Solaris

[Jack]

Hello Thor,

I think you have had a free NLP course, particularly from Skip, who has written an inordinate amount to help and all of it good. Now it is time for you to go and put it all into practice.

But before you do get rid of terms like 'core beliefs'. All beliefs are transient and may be modified by the next passing hypnotherapist, TV ad or raindrop. Sometimes even logic gets a look in, but not much.

Buy no more books except one. Read 'Frogs into Princes' ten times. Then read again and understand.

Jack

[Thor]

>>This IS the problem and I realize it, thats why I'm here. Taking a training is impossible, there isn't anyone reputable.
Interesting. Could it be, that you have just had bad luck, or that your selection criteria is somehow faulty?
Nope, I'm in the wrong country for NLP.
>>It is difficult to pick up experiential knowledge from reading, even if you do the exercises, because you have no one, who knows how to do them properly, to supervise.
Sometimes
>>It may not be the purpose a senior member has fior being on this forum. But then again it may. I personally would hesitate to make an assumption, about the purpose of anyone.
True, I am a senior member on a financial forum. If I sense someone needs advice I wouldn't like to post then I send a pm. Since I'm not a member here, I put up an email.
>>It assumes that were I hesitant about revealing some 'secret knoweledge' publically, I would unhesitatingly send it to you privately.
If ANYONE wants to, they know where to. Trade secrets DO exist in any field
>>You can conclude that we are all asses and/or frauds.
Never ever thought of it that way.

>>>>You can persevere in your belief that there are no reputable trainers. You can continue to expect from books and or forums that which they are least capable of delivering.<<<<
Reader comments on this required.

I do think that there are people here who have the knowledge I'm seeking hence my persistence. The presupposition that I have a belief of no reputable trainers is completely mistaken as I have watched videos of excellent trainers, just haven't met any, yet.
Thanks for the link Solaris152000, I own most of the Joseph Connor/Harry Alder/Erickson/NLP comprehensive books and tapes.
If I put together all the material from all those books re belief changing, I would have maybe 20 pages? From 2000 pages, and bottom line, does it work? I'm sure there is more material on this site, just that it can be more specific.

[Thor]

Hi Jack,
Yes, it is possible that I may have read too much of the wrong stuff.
>>Buy no more books except one. Read 'Frogs into Princes' ten times
OK, I have it, so 9 more times to go.
>>All beliefs are transient and may be modified by the next passing hypnotherapist, TV ad or raindrop.
No hypnotherapists here, no time for TV, but lots of rain
>>Sometimes even logic gets a look in, but not much.
??? Aren't they all based on logic?

[pinktrance]

If you were to walk past a tramp in the street and he told you that you looked really ill, you would probably ignore him and think, "what does a stupid old tramp know, i`m not gonna take any notice of any rubish coming out of his mouth".
If a doctor told you you looked ill, you would probably be quite worried by his opinions, and take action of some sort.

Belief systems are funny old things, and subject to constant change. My point is that, much depends on the source of information that is being fed to you, and how you rate the source, as to whether the belief system may accept change or not.

[Merlin]

Hi Pink,

>If you were to walk past a tramp in the street and he told you...
>If a doctor told you...

Interesting value we place on people and their opinions.

>My point is that, much depends on the source of information...

And doesn't it also depend on the value you assign to that information source?

Why would one persons comment be placed above anothers?

[TaffyE]

Why would one persons comment be placed above anothers?

As Pinky said
Belief systems are funny old things, and subject to constant change. My point is that, much depends on the source of information that is being fed to you, and how you rate the source, as to whether the belief system may accept change or not.

It depends on the belief system of the listener as to the value the listener places on the source

[Thor]

Any opinions on this?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.psychology.psychotherapy/browse_thread/thread/672b6926a454a33e/5d37835b3bc5d956?q=Belief+change+techniques&rnum=14&hl=en#5d37835b3bc5d956

And this

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.psychology.nlp/browse_thread/thread/2ff51f5dac0111ab/651b0e32f5dcc9e3?q=Belief+change+techniques&rnum=18&hl=en#651b0e32f5dcc9e3