Eye catalepsy Elman style

[Vin]

I've got a question about the method of self-hypnosis that Elman described and suggested in his book. Basically he was bypassing the critical faculty by obtaining eye-catalepsy and testing for that. I've tried this method a number of times, as it seems nice and rapid, but I had success not so often, better, only the first time and then I was unable to do that. I am myself an hypnotist and it is a shame I can easily and quickly (around 5-10 seconds) obtain eye-catalepsy in the client, but on myself. Any hints?

[Poodle]

It's so very nice to know that I am not the ONLY PERSON IN THIS WORLD that fails at this induction, even when done by my peers. Suggestion Central: Learn another way of by-passing your CF that does not involve relaxation of anything. ;)

What else by-passes the CF besides relaxation?

You posted months ago that you passed your course and were setting up practice. You paid your instructor good money to answer these questions for you. Is post-course support offered?

Pood :)

[Vin]

Well, the interesting thing is that the first time I went to a hypnotist, about two years ago, I rapidly obtained eye-catalepsy. But doing that by myself looks a lot harder.
Yes, I could ask my teacher, maybe in person, it depends if I have the time for 15 hour flight:). Or I can also ask the same question on this board, as i did, because I know there are some people very knowledgeable and I can have a different perspective.
And yes, I know there are many methods for self-hypnosis (and I know a few), but I'd like to understand because it is so easy to obtain eye-catalepsy on other people and so difficult (for me) on myself.

[Mentalius]

As I understand the Elman-induction, you ask people to follow instructions and to pretend that they can´t open their eyes, and then test that. When people DO open their eyes, they are testing that they indeed CAN open their eyes, which is not the instruction. Repeat instruction and repeat the induction.

When this is understood, eyeclosure becomes easy, and you are cooperating with yourself, rather than proving to yourself that you can´t follow (your own) instructions ;o)

What instructions did you give yourself?

[Vin]

As I understand the Elman-induction, you ask people to follow instructions and to pretend that they can´t open their eyes, and then test that. When people DO open their eyes, they are testing that they indeed CAN open their eyes, which is not the instruction. Repeat instruction and repeat the induction.

When this is understood, eyeclosure becomes easy, and you are cooperating with yourself, rather than proving to yourself that you can´t follow (your own) instructions ;o)

What instructions did you give yourself?

Thank you very much for your comment. Elman (from his book and his tapes) used two different approaches to obtain eye catalepsy, one was "you can relax your eyelids to the point they do not work....and test them to make sure they don't work" and the other was "pretend you can't open your eyes...and test them"?
While I can obtain rapidly the relaxation of the eyelids with immediately preceiving a strong feeling of warmth, when I test for eye-catalepsy (eyelids are so glued together the more I try to open them the less I am able to, or something along those lines) I fail. Because I expect them to work? I do not understand because this simple hypnosis phenomenon is so simple on others and so difficult on myself.

[skip]

Vin,

I guess I would first wonder what the fixation with eye catalepsy is, or anything else for that matter.

Then I would consider how difficult it can be for one person to be both the hypnotist and the 'subject' when bound by the traditional sense of the relationship.

Then I would wonder what would happen if you just went on into trance eye catalepsy or not.

And while in that trance, why dont you dont simply offer yourself suggestions that would facilitate getting eye catalepsy or any other form of catalepsy?

Then I would wonder about the fixation with eye catalepsy again.

Then I might go even deeper into a really good working trance and ask myself, "If I could easily do eye catelepsy, how would I be doing it ...?"

And then I would wonder why it is that I didnt think of any of these things myself, since they are easily within my cpabilities as a practicing hypnotist.

And further I would consider installing the honest belief that an obstical is an opportunity to learn how to accomplish something another way, and I do love to learn.

And then I would wantonly dream how my life would change for the better, after I had installed that belief, and imagine different scenerios where that belief would have changed my life in the past, and different scenerios where that belief will change my life in the future.

And then I would wonder how many other areas there are, where I have both small and large beliefs that actually hinder or block my ability to achieve what I want in life, and I would further consider how easy it would be to change those beliefs, to ones that actually support my achieving what I want.

And I could wonder, for a while, how different my life would be then.

And then I could ask myself, "How many other things are there, that I am struggling with on their level, and what will happen when I change the level that I approach them on?

Then I suppose I would wonder how much better that would make my life and the lives of my clients, if I made it a habit, to never approach a problem on its level, but to always work with it on a different level. How would it be, to never again experience the resistance that problems sometimes present, on their own level.

Then I would probably again wonder why the hell I was so fixated on self eye catalepsy when there is sooooooo much more out there.

But that is just me, and may not be true for you.

cheers,

skip

[Vin]

Skip,
thanks for the brilliant reply, really.
While it would be worse to be fixated on eye fixation, my fixation on eye catalepsy is simply trying to understand why it looks so simple on others and hard on myself. We learn when we start doing (or understand or...) things we could not do before (or understand or...). And I enjoy so much learning.
Again, thanks for the brilliant reply.

Vin

[Merlin]

Maybe you expect too much?
so long as you pretend eye catalepsy, your CF is bypassed.
it must be. you know your eyelids work just fine.
there is not necessarily a 'feeling' with this.

[Vin]

Maybe you expect too much?
so long as you pretend eye catalepsy, your CF is bypassed.
it must be. you know your eyelids work just fine.
there is not necessarily a 'feeling' with this.

Merlin,
but when you obtain eye-catalepsy, for example in the Elman induction, the client, especially if it the first time he is hypnotized, do not know in that moment that the eyelids work just fine, they think that you (the hypnotist) have to do something in order to make them work again. A lot of people posting here have a lot more experience than me, but this is my feedback from my clients. And I do not even use the word "pretend".

[Poodle]

Get a grip here please. I highly suspect when in class you were in a trance state. You may not have known it as it is a light trance. It makes EVERYTHING easier.

Lesson 1: According to some instructors eye catalepsy is the first stage of hypnosis meaning that the client is listening to you and not using their conscious mind knowing full and well that those eyes can open any time they so desire. It's just sooo much more comfortable to let them stay closed.

Merl wrote pretend and pretending can sufficiently by-pass the CF. Maybe it's something in English as there is a large difference between pretending and imagining.

Please look on Merlin's book list and you will find other books that help explain Elman. I certainly would NEVER want to learn Elman from Elman. Skip wondered why eye catalepsy is soooo very important for you. It's unnecessary. It's only a built in test for the hypnotist to check if the client is following instructions. Can you build in another little test instead or if you absolutely positively HAVE TO --- pretend there is a small window on the top of your head and you want to look through it. Okay? Use arm catalepsy and "I will only go into a profound and deep hypnotic trance at the rate and speed that my subconscious wants to by lowering my arm-hand-wrist in honest unconscious movements until it lands on the arm of the chair/bed or whatever.

I think it was a year ago last summer I bought an induction from a well known stage hypnotist in the USA that is also an instructor. It was a combination of Elman and Erickson. Even with that, there are people who will not go into trance and are nicely excused from the stage.

Is eye catalepsy necessary. NO! I had a gentleman this week that was in somnambulism yet he kept opening his eyes. I would just do a Mesmeric pass so they would close again but towards the end I just left them open. It was a fascinating study in what happens with eyes and suggestions. Upon emerging he thought I had been walking around the room as he saw shadows. I smiled and told him I had been sitting right there all the time and I was. (I have no idea what he saw nor do I need to know)

Learn to work "around" anything that happens and that includes with yourself. Learn the words "that's right" and always reinforce them even when the client is 100% wrong as if it's 100% wrong you need to do something about it quickly.

Enough teaching for today and probably the week.

Pood

[Docresults]

Vin,

I didn't think I could add anything after Skip's fantastic post and I have read your responses and especially what you wrote after Skip's great advice. And now I understand Skip's wonder...

I'll still wondering why the fixation of eye catalepsy.

Your response to Skip was...
"my fixation on eye catalepsy is simply trying to understand why it looks so simple on others and hard on myself. We learn when we start doing (or understand or...) things we could not do before (or understand or...). And I enjoy so much learning."

IF you really, I mean really enjoy so much learning I'm wondering not so much about eye catalepsy or even about "why you simply want to understand... simply others and hard you..." but why you aren't simply using the instructions Skip gave to fully understand to your heart's content the 'why' of it all. All it takes is actually doing what Skip so generously offered.

As My Grampa Vetter used to say, "what we fail to learn through intelligence we learn through experience".

So if you are wondering on the intellectual level why not experience Skip's suggestions and you will learn (come up with your own story) the answer to your inquiry.

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

[Don]

Vin, I understand that people learn in different ways. When I can't understand something, I'll often spend hours trying to figure it out. It used to be I'd take things apart and put them back together. Now, it's mostly reading poorly-written software manuals.

But now, when it comes to hypnosis, things are a bit different. I learned the theories and now I'm far more interested in results. That means I don't care about what doesn't work, I care about what does work.

Thankfully, I know enough about hypnosis to know something very, very simple: if something doesn't work...use something else. I'm not limited to one form of induction. If it's clear that an induction isn't working, I don't stress over it, I just move on to something else.

One of my hypnosis teachers shared a concept that I'm inclined to agree with. He said, the main reason people are unhappy is because they can't accept a simple truth:

What is, is.

It sounds to me like you're there. Something didn't work. That's what is. You're refusing to say, "Okay, that didn't work. Let's try something else." Instead, you're going to worry yourself to death over why it didn't work. Well, it didn't. Respectfully, here's my advice: move on.

This isn't just saying "get over it." There's more to it than that. You know that old saying, "Practice makes perfect?" Well, it's wrong. Practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice something the wrong way, you learn it the wrong way. Practice it enough and the wrong way becomes a habit, and habits can be difficult to break.

Right now, your focus is on what doesn't work. For whatever reason it's not working, the one thing we can say is that it's not working. Keep practicing at it and you'll get in the habit of failure.

So move on to something else. Come back to this induction in a few months.

Focus on success, not failure.

[Vin]

Dear guys,
I'm grateful for the replies. I think there a was a "little" misunderstanding. Where do you get the impression I was fixated with eye catalepsy? I mean, my question was about the Elman induction of self-hypnosis which was based on testing for eye catalepsy and saying the word "green" (for him had a meaning) and move on from there. I think it was nice, I tried that some times and I did not have good results. So, I was asking if anybody here (because a lot of people here are better hypnostist than me) had advices for that. But, just to clarify, I did not say, that I do not know other methods of self hypnosis, that I'm spending my days and nights trying to obtain eye-catalepsy. It is simply a method I read in a book, I tried, I did not have a good success with and I asked for advice. And it made me think on how framing suggestions, the differences between hetero- and self-hypnosis and so on.
Nevertheless, I received some great teachings from your posts.

Vin

[Apsinthion]

But, just to clarify, I did not say ... that I'm spending my days and nights trying to obtain eye-catalepsy.

:lol: Darn, I almost thought I had someone to stay up late at night with!

This is really an interesting thread for me, personally. Just three days ago I was at the book store reading Elman's book and learning his method of self-hypnosis, imagining about all the new ways I'll be productive now that I know it ... and then I started wondering, well, now that I know self-hypnosis, what exactly is it I want to do? How do I want to be? Then I suddenly remembered a certain beautiful lady who makes me nervous, who I want to be confident and relaxed around ... but why? Well, because I want her to like me, duh! But can I hypnotise myself to make her like me? No ... but then I saw that what I really wanted was to feel loved and known before I die. And I realized if I couldn't do that for myself, no else would probably want to either! And then the question arose ... how do I not love myself? what do I not know about myself? Who am I, anyways? And then I realized, I couldn't trust a single auto-suggestion from myself, because I didn't even know the source of their true arising! Why change anything, really? For others that may be good, but for me, I would be happy to simply see what is.

It reminded me a little of this wonderful story ...

The Stone-Cutter's Story (http://www.rickwalton.com/folktale/crimsn17.htm)

But just on a side note ... I wonder if your unconscious mind is simply not ready to keep your eyes shut only as quickly as it takes for you to allow your unconscious mind to do what's right for you? The highest quality information is behavioral, and maybe your eyelids are a-sayin something! ;)

[Poodle]

What a lovely and interesting response. NLP trainings are famous for cutting thru the crap and getting down to just how wonderful and great we are. Could be you may see one in your future. I highly suspect there is a lot to love there for yourself and others. You are obviously a caring and nice person or you would not be in this profession. Stay in there as the "love bug" bites when one least expects it.

Pood :)

PS -- And I do know for sure you have excellent taste and I'm not writing about gustatory ;)

[Apsinthion]

well, thank you for the compliments but truth be told, I'm not "in" the profession just yet -- two more weeks to go and then I'll have my CHt and NLP certificate! But yes ... I have the feeling the Universe will send a lovely someone my way someday soon -- it's running out of ways to make me suffer! :D

[trigger]

Hey Vin, I used to be "fixated" on eye closure too. In my (limited and comparatively inexperienced) opinion, eye closure is incredibly easy to accomplish.

"Close your eyes and imagine there's a window in your forehead...look through that window at the moon above...while you're looking at the moon, try to open your eyes and notice them lock tighter and tighter shut."

It's not hypnosis, it's a "convincer" which leads to hypnotic trance. It's physically impossible to open your eyes when they are rolled up in your head.

Hope this helps!

[Poodle]

please do not do this. If the eyes do not lock, the client is not following your instructions so it is time to switch to another induction without letting the client know they have failed at anything. Just say: That's right and now ......

Just one reason to know many different induction styles.

If you are going to be a pro, work like a pro!!

Pood :)

[Merlin]

"Close your eyes and imagine there's a window in your forehead...look through that window at the moon above...while you're looking at the moon, try to open your eyes and notice them lock tighter and tighter shut."

It's not hypnosis...
yes it is!

[Vin]

Also in my opinion it is hypnosis, as you are bypassing the critical faculty of the conscious mind.
I've got a curiosity. Before learning hypnosis, I studied for some time autogenic training with good success. Is someone familiar with AT? When you suggest to yourself that your body is getting heavier (or warmer) and you feel the sensation, is it hypnosis or not? I think you are not bypassing the CF in this case, but how it is different from, say, arm levitation?

Vin

[Poodle]

I'll let you in on a little secret. All the deep trance phenomena can be achieved out of a hypnotic trance. If I were to say to you that your right hand feels different than your left, you will agree. They are two separate hands. If I ask you to notice the feeling between your big toe and the toe next to it, you will think I'm amazing as it is something we do not ordinarily notice. How about that little space right behind your right ear or the notice the feeling of the fabric of your pants against your thighs, etc., etc., etc.

[Vin]

I'll let you in on a little secret. All the deep trance phenomena can be achieved out of a hypnotic trance. If I were to say to you that your right hand feels different than your left, you will agree. They are two separate hands. If I ask you to notice the feeling between your big toe and the toe next to it, you will think I'm amazing as it is something we do not ordinarily notice. How about that little space right behind your right ear or the notice the feeling of the fabric of your pants against your thighs, etc., etc., etc.

Poodle,
are they deep trance phenomena? I think not. Moreover, I'd say that deep trance phenomena can be obtained without using a formal induction, but a formal induction is really necessary?

Vin

[Poodle]

"What are behaviors you can perform under hypnosis? There really is no behavior you can carry out in the hypnotized state that you cannot carry out in the ordinary, everyday waking state." Milton H. Erickson (in Rossi, Ryan & Sharp, 1983, page 183)

Says it all.

Pood