Are somkers always difficult

[Cleo]

I’ve just had a smoking client tell me that It didn’t work AGAIN. This is her second session and while she smoked after the first session I told her that cutting down was in itself successful but she is back smoking to her usual amount after the second session. She still wants to “try again with me” for the third session but I feel its a waste of both our time. And trying with me is setting "me" up as a failure.

Apparently she gave up years ago with a group session but went back months later as she was putting on weight.

Now several years later she is married with children and seems like she wants to give up. She is telling me all the right reasons but as soon as she wants a cigarette she has one. She compares me to the last hypnotist and says when he did it she didn’t “want” a cigarette. However with my sessions she gets very relaxed and seems to get good levels of trancee but according to her my sessions don’t stop her cravings. I’ve explained that its not magic and that she needs to be invested in the process…………..but she is already telling me how the next social occasion will warrant a cigarette.

Comments, opinions, advice PLEASE???????????????????

[Cassandra 8]

Maybe she doesn't really like the suggestion you presented to her. From what you've said, some part of her identifies strongly with being a smoker. Might you not be addressing that part of her in a way it understands?

What about suggesting that whenever she wants a ciggy she suddenly realises she's only just had one. This is both true to some degree and presents a false choice.

[Hypnomania]

When I work with somebody who wants to quit smoking I usually start with asking them why they want to stop smoking and insist about the reason. And when I get the feeling that there is not a 100% commitment to stop smoking, that the person does not really want and just maybe came because he wants to say "I also tried hypnosis and that didn't work too" then I tell them that it doesn't make sense to hypnotize him. I play a bit games with, say things like "I don't think that you really want to quit smoking, I mean hypnosis is great to help people, but you are really not ready for it, better you keep your money, for me you really don't need to quit smoking...." Usually then they start trying to convince me/themself that they REALLY want to quit smoking and that I have to do it and then already half of the work is done.
While hypnotizing I use different techniques: Trying to find out if the smoking is good for something and how this can be replaced; let them see themselves as a nonsmoker in typical situations and doing something else instead of smoking; giving suggestions and so on.

[Neurotic1]

One of the common problems with smoking is that hypnotherapists do not change the belief systems of the smoker. They may tackle such issues as a desire to stop smoking and make it a very easy thing to stop. However, leave a smoker with the belief that smoking in any way provided them with something beneficial, such as (illusory) pleasure or a crutch and they will at some point be tempted. I have thought long and hard about this as I know there is a relatively high failure rate compared with other conditions - although I am also aware of current ongoing research in hypnotherapy in this area. I wonder if a combination of hypnotherapy and the 'allen carr' method would be perhaps the most effective way of treating most smokers?

[Hypnomania]

In my area there is one institute who advertises with a money back guarantee if the people not quit smoking after their seminar. I don't know exactly how they work, but as far as I know not with hypnosis. Has anybody here experience with working with a money back guarantee? Doesn't that give people a additional reason not to stop smoking? I mean it's easier to go on smoking and on top they get their money back :rolleyes:

[Cassandra 8]

Well, all I can say is that respecting their smoking is what I've always done in conversational situations and prior to formal trance, and that dialogue with the part of the mind scared of having no defining factor when smoking is gone is paramount unless you just cosh the criical faculty over the head and hope to build a wall that they can't find a way over before it wakes up.

Your mileages will obviously differ.

[EC]

Hi Cleo,

I have a suggestion: Tell her to go home, you are not willing to spend the time with someone who is not ready to stop smoking.

She is expecting you to do all the work. To change is going to require the right mental attitude on her part. Either she has, it, you are experienced enough to develop it, or she will keep smoking.

Sending her on her way will go far to help her develop the correct mental attitude and she just might be back....ready!

EC

[Cleo]

My initial reaction was to tell her to go away and come back when she was ready and I agree she wants me to do all the work. She wants me to “make” her quit smoking. I feel if I continue with her I’m setting myself up for failure that I don’t need.

Plus her husband and her friends all smoke so it’s a difficult situation.



However should the sessions stop her cravings???????



I had told her that three sessions are needed to compound the suggestions so she still wants the third one and since we had an agreement I feel compelled to give it to her.

She said she is going for acupuncture after she gives me a last shot…………and its at least 8 sessions at $80 per session. I suggested that perhaps the larger financial commitment may have her more invested in the process.



I feel I’ve also bought myself some negative advertising as we both belong to a group that I was hoping to advertise to and she is my first client from the group. Such I life I guess.



On the first session I suggested she replace her smoking with cool clear water. Now after the second session she told me that she drinks a lot of water anyhow and that was not a good suggestion. (why not tell me after the first session?) She is convinced that its “me”. She asked if I had ever gotten anyone to stop?? and I do feel I need to substitute her cigarettes with something else that she can live with. She is now suggesting fruit but she that wont work in her “bar” situations.



What is the “allen carr” method ???



As for the guys why to the money back guarantee???? I’m almost tempted to go to one to find out what’s going on???

[Cassandra 8]

I had told her that three sessions are needed to compound the suggestions so she still wants the third one and since we had an agreement I feel compelled to give it to her.
Her subconscious might just be waiting for the third and final session just like it waits for you to count to three.

[skip]

Hi Cleo,

One school of thought is that the client isnt ready to change. Send her home, wash your hands of her. And that may be both true and good advice.

But I am not sure I agree with it.

The fact that she has come to you for help, implies (not guarantees, but implies) that she has exausted all the means at her disposal to self help, and is now turning to you for help. Now that doesnt 'sound' like someone who "isnt ready to change" to me. And yes I know she might be there just to satisfy someone else, that she is hopeless. Its a possibility.

In my mind, I prefer to believe, I choose to believe, that a client showing up, and cooperating with my protocol, is prima facia evidence, that they want to make the changes. It is a deliberate choice, irregardless of the reality, because I want no excuses for failure. It puts all the responsibility on me.

You have to decide what is right for you. Do you conclude (rightfully in some cases, incorrectly in others) that some clients just werent 'ready', whatever that means? Or do you conclude, that showing up at your door, and paying you $400 per hour, is sufficent indicator of motivation? And it is immaterial what that motivation is, if you are worth what you are being paid, even if it is just $10 per hour, your unconscious will figure out a way? I leave it to my 'creative part' to come up with a way, and it does. Your's will too.

Now Im not trying to give you a hard time in any fashion. I AM suggesting that there is what I consider a more useful way to think about this. (That applies to both in general, and specifically to this particular client.)

There are somethings we can safetly ASSUME, and not be made asses of.

WE can ASSUME that smoking satisfies some ongoing need(s) for her. I'd be willing to be that you dont yet know what those needs are. Ill bet she doesnt know either. But you can find out.

We can ASSUME that if you can offer a substitute behavior(s) that fully satisfies the current need(s) to somke, that includes refraining from the cigarette, she will make the change, and she wont crave, because the needs are being met.

Now you offered water as a substitute, and you are considering fruit, and I will predict that it will work equally well as water, which was not at all, because you dont yet know the needs that she is satisfying when she smokes. So it is highly unlikely that she will connect the new behavior with satisfying those needs. She might, some do.

Smoking satisfies a whole range of behaviors. I dare say that most of us started smoking to look more mature, sexy (now there was a hell of an advertising job), maybe a bit of rebellion, peer pressure, etc.

And thru time, smoking has come to mean a whole raft of things, from completion/satisfaction (as in after sex, or a meal), to relaxation, (as in smoke break, gotta have a cigarette to settle my nerves, etc), to fitting in with my social group, (gives me something to do with my hands in social settings, provides a topic of conversation, etc)

Now try to do all that with a glass of water or a banana. You can, but it is pretty tricky.

The mere act of smoking, even without lighting up, will triger many of those need responses. That's called a conditioned response. NLP calls it anchor. Pavlov called it a bell. Just kidding.

What I am trying to say is that smoking is tied to pleasurable responses that are thouroughly embedded in her life, and simple aversion, or 'Everytime you feel a need to smoke, have a glass of water.", isnt going to scratch the surface.

The craving is just a signal, that there is a desire for the feelings smoking brings on in specific situations. Give her those same feelings in a way she can agree with, and there will be no craving, and incidentally she will quit smoking without realizing it.

Now I have no idea how competent you are, and if you feel I have been talking down to you, or that I am preaching to the choir, then my apologies. My interest is to offer some possible alternative suggestions to a problem, not make commentary about posible competence.

hope that helps,

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Skip's post left little or nothing to add, except perhaps to rephrase some of his comments in order to highlight them. Pretalk,,,,this sets the tone for all future therapy sessions, and is the basis or foundation of success. You failed in this, and need to learn so as not to make the same mistake again...How do I know you failed? Well if you hadn't the client would not be taking charge, and telling you why you are failing them, and the previous practitioner didn't....Did it ever occur to you that the fact they are visiting you now, means that the previous person failed to give them what they needed to become a PERMANENT non smoker? Secondly, you seem to have failed to make the client understand that hypnosis is a partnership between their mind and your skills, not some magic pill. Had you done this, they might have a very different and positive attitude now, and well be a non smoker. Their failings are something you have no control over, but yours are something you can change, so learn from your mistakes, and don't lay blame were it won't assist you to become a better practitioner.... I tell you this as both an ex smoker, and as one who has assisted numerous persons to also become EX smokers. Not all succeeded in staying so, and I accept that this was my failure, not theirs, because to blame them leaves me no better off, while accepting blame myself leaves me to ponder, and improve on my skills, and become a better practitioner..... It isn't the person who makes no mistakes who becomes the best, but the person who makes mistakes, accepts the fact, and goes on to learn from those mistakes...

[Cleo]

Cassandra you could be on to something there. She did say after she smoked after the first session “ah well I’ll be having 2 more sessions”. So how do I make the last session count?

[Cleo]

Terry, I did explain in the pre-talk that this was a partnership and that she really needed to want to give up smoking before I could be of any help. I also told her it was not a magic bullet. But are correct when you say I have let her take charge. How do I get that back?



She said all the right things; she wants to be healthy, to smell better, to give a good example to her kids. I had heard her talk before in company how she was going to give up but had to decide on when. It was shortly after that she came to me but had not tried on her own at that time. I didn’t see a problem with that, I felt she really wanted to give up. And I do feel that I failed and I need to find out why but I don’t want to take “all” the blame because I now think she wants me to “make” her give up. Now she bought a pack on the way to her first session……………………….to have her last one……………..that should have been a huge red flag for me. Now she had a cigarette before her second session ……her last one (again) which I thought was okay. I am an ex (heavy) smoker too and I always had my last one before I gave up. But the “pack” should have been a warning to me? Plus its killing me that she gave up with a group session before. She said she had no craving but she went with her friends and they all gave up together?





Skip, the way you put it makes perfect sense, that water and fruit will not replace all the things she gets from smoking, but how do I replace the all. The cigarette in the morning the 10 on the phone, the 5 in the car, after the meal etc? she goes to the bar with her friends they all smoke……….her husband smokes. She does have anxiety problems so if I could replace smoking with a great sense of relaxation?



is there something that works for all of this ?

And by the way I am a novice and you are not talking down to me. I really appreciate the help.

[Cassandra 8]

Cassandra you could be on to something there. She did say after she smoked after the first session “ah well I’ll be having 2 more sessions”. So how do I make the last session count?Just carry on as before. She'll do the rest.

[skip]

Cleo,

"Skip, the way you put it makes perfect sense, that water and fruit will not replace all the things she gets from smoking, but how do I replace the all. The cigarette in the morning the 10 on the phone, the 5 in the car, after the meal etc? she goes to the bar with her friends they all smoke……….her husband smokes. She does have anxiety problems so if I could replace smoking with a great sense of relaxation?"

Well you could and that would suffice for some of the contexts in which she smokes.

I woudnt advocate any one behavior to replace cigaretts, but different ones. After a meal or sex, she doesnt need a sense of just relaxation but of satiation. In a social situation she might need confidence and self assurance. And so on.

I dont know what smoking does for her, in various contexts so I cannot offer solutions.

BUT!

I can ask her while in trance, to imagine all the situations in which she does smoke. I might even list them, if you and she have discussed them. We go thru them one at a time and we secure agreement with the unconscious to review alternative but satisfactory behaviors to use instead. and we make sure that the conscious and unconscious know that if the behavior ever becomes unsatisfactory that she can do a creative search to find and agree on another.

And one at a time we go thru all the contexts in which she feels she "NEEDS" a cigarette. Every day situations, and emergency situations, and situations she hasnt even thought of yet.

And Ill have her dream of all the situations where she might want a cigarette, and come up, in her dream, with alternative behaviors that are satisfactory.

AND THEN, I'll future pace enough of them that I am sure that her unconscious has gotten the idea and integrates the new behaviors across contexts. Look into the future at the bar, and see herself using the new behavior, and feeling what she formerly felt smoking and add feeling really pleased with herself that she is doing just fine. Look into the future after sex, and have her see herself feeling really satiated, and pleasure that she no longer has to have a cigarette in order to feel this good and bump that pleasure up certain in the sure knoweledge that she really does make a better lover and gets so much more out of lovemaking because she no longer smokes. Bump the pleasure again. OH baby!!!!

Have her unconscious 'rehurse' these scenerios, over and over until she has them just right, adjusting things that dont feel quite right until they do.

Now all this doesnt take that long, all you have to do is teach her the process, and then give her the post hypnotic suggestion that her unconscious will ferret out every situation and come up with a new behavior, and test and adjust and test and adjust until she has it just right and adopt that as her new behavior in that situation such that her unonscious knows exactly what to do, and she wont have to consciously realize at the time, but can be delightfuly surprised later, perhaps weeks or months to realize that he has been doing this all along... bla bla bla ...

So teach her how to generate new behavior, how to test it (Test Operate Test Exit TOTE), and she can do the work in subjective time while dreaming, AND most importantly she will know how to generate new behavior on her own later if she needs to alter behavior.

better?

skip

[Neurotic1]

Well, all I can say is that respecting their smoking is what I've always done in conversational situations and prior to formal trance, and that dialogue with the part of the mind scared of having no defining factor when smoking is gone is paramount unless you just cosh the criical faculty over the head and hope to build a wall that they can't find a way over before it wakes up.

Your mileages will obviously differ.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying there cassandra - please could you clarify for a confused person?

Perhaps it is possible to over focus on the not doing of something and going along with the smoker's illusions. If we go along with smokers illusions of why they really smoke and that they will miss it, do we not miss the illusory component of the addiction and actually exacerbate it by giving it credence? Perhaps that might lead to failure because we offer a shorter term solution (i.e; we might get them to stop but after a while the unresolved doubt about illusory benefits sneak back in). I feel much of the focus needs to be on why smokers smoke. This need not be disrespectful to them or their behaviour but rather to show them how addiction and smoking perceptions are, for want of a better word, exploitative of their thought processes for its own benefit.

[Cleo]

Skip, this sounds great, and its done while in hypnosis? I tell her in hypnosis to dream the solutions? And do I ask her to imagine she is having a cigarette or just what it feels like when she is having one? (I don’t want to entice her to have a cigarette but I want to know what she feels when she has one).

And can you tell me what is (Test Operate Test Exit TOTE),???



Thanks so much for your help

[Don]

She said all the right things; she wants to be healthy, to smell better, to give a good example to her kids. I had heard her talk before in company how she was going to give up but had to decide on when. It was shortly after that she came to me but had not tried on her own at that time.

Hi, Cleo.

I'll throw in my analysis--feel free to throw it out!

It seems to me that her comments about why she wanted to quit were not really very good. Here's what I mean:

She wants to be healthy: What does that mean? Is she unhealthy now? What does she mean by "healthy?"

She wants to smell better: Better than what? Some people like the smell of tobacco. What would she like to smell like? Couldn't she just take a shower or put on some perfume?

She wants to give a good example to her kids: So she's NOT doing it for herself, but for someone else?

If these are the reasons that someone is coming to me, I would say, "That's all great. But none of these are very personal and you've given me no reason to believe that you really want to quit. Right now, no system would help you stop, and if you did stop, you'd start again.

"However, I'll consider helping you if you prove to me that you really want to quit smoking. Come back to me in one week. During that time I want you to keep a pad of paper with you. You will write down the time of every cigarette you smoke and the reason you smoked it. Reasons might be your after-dinner smoke, you were nervous, you were bored, etc. Bring your record to me."

A week later, l would look at the pad and casually ask if that was every cigarette. I would look through it and make sure that they did the assignment. If they went a long time without smoking I'd ask why or if they had forgotten to write one down. If they missed one I'd give them back the pad and say, "Okay. You missed one. Perhaps you missed others, too. That shows me you really didn't take this assignment seriously and you don't really want to stop smoking. I regret that you wasted my time, but it happens. Have a good day."

If they object, I'd have them do it again. If they really finish the "ordeal" then I'd do a session with them. If not, I'd send them away. As one of my teachers said, "you don't need more clients, you need successful clients."

As has been pointed out by other posters, if you say they will be a non-smoker after three sessions, many people will simply wait until the third session to stop. As you pointed out, "she was going to give up but had to decide on when." Had she decided in that first session that when she left that session she was going to be a non-smoker? If not, she was just following her internal directions.

Let's say that you've given her all of the suggestions to quit. Have you and she also determined what to do with the extra time she had and have you included that in the suggestions? If not, she would automatically fall back into old patterns.

Smoking cessation isn't really about getting people to stop smoking, it's about getting them to change their behavior and do one or more other things.

Keep up the good work! Make mistakes--but only make them once! Learn from the past, live in the present, create your future.

[skip]

OK.

I assume that early on in your sessions you establish a 'learning state' for your client, that prepares them to learn eagerly and fast.

You ask, "When do you smoke? When do you feel the need for a cigarette?"

You could get quite a list, and it wont be all inclusive. There will be times that dont come to mind, and times that are exceptional like emergencies.

Lets dissect just one.

Then 'in trance' you ask about one at a time, "When you feel the need for a smoke break, what does taking the smoke break do for you?" You might get replies like relaxation, ability to think about what I am doing, and organize my thoughts, forget about the problems at hand and give my mind a break, things like that. If you know NLP you can actually 'see/sense' her enter the state that smoking, in that context, does for her, the whole gestalt, even if not verbalized. It isnt so important that you know what it does for her, as it is that you bring it to her mind, so she can evaluate (in trance) a variety of other substitute behaviors that achieve the same 'gestalt'. And you keep letting her unconscious come up with new possibilities until one or more is found that is satisfactory both consciously and unconsciously.

Then you TOTE. You have her go into the future, and envision herself in the context and sensing the 'need' and responding before she becomes consciously aware of a need, not with smoking, but with the new behavior that satisfies that need. Actually have her 'live it' in trance to experience what it will be like, to the best of her ability. All the way thru, from before the need is sensed consciously, to after she is back at work or whatever. Then if there is anything she doesnt like about the new behavior, she can tweak it, or throw it out altogether, and try on another one. Continue this until you have a new behavior that she is completely satisfied (consciously and unconsciously) with.

Then you have her envision herself going thru a series of times when she uses the new behavior until the new behavior is seamless and comfortable and automatc.

NOW thats is the process, and you do it in trance. Then you take a second need and you go thru the same process. And then a third. And then a fourth ...

Somewhere in there she, her unconscious is going to 'get it', and she will "take off" and operate the process faster than you can verbalize it. You can see her doing it and follow it because you have been paying attention as she learned how to do it.

Now all you have to do, is mention what were previous smoking contexts, and she will identify the need being satiasfied, and develop new behavior to solve it, and rehurse that new behavior until it is habitual.

You havent taught her to stop smoking so much as you have taught her how to modify her behavior to take care of any unwanted habit, and replace it with desirable behavior that has been 'field tested' to the best of her ability.

Then you want to take advantage of the fact that you can dream a lifetime in a couple of seconds.

She has a lot of situations you havent mentioned yet, and she has some she hasnt even thought of yet. So you can ask her to take all the time she needs to dream thousands of possible scenerios, where she might in the past have wanted a cigarette, and go thru this 'new behavior generator' so that she will not feel a need for a cigarette.

If you do this in your office, you better have made provision for her to be there for a while, because she WILL take the time she needs.

Or you can do it as a post hypnotic suggestion that tonight as she sleeps and dreams she can ...

Either way, I would also use the post hypnotic suggestion, that tonight as she dreams he can dream of time after time in the future as she encounters a situation where she would have wanted to smoke using her new behavior, and feeling good and pleased with herself. This will habituate her to the new behavior(s) so that she doesnt actually feel as if she is doing anything different. The new behavior feels as if she has been doing it for a long time.

Now some things to watch out for. We do not want to replace cigaretts with candy, or snacking. We do want some 'appropriate to the context' physical activity. It could be as simple as deep breath and enjoying relaxing, ot it could involve taking a short walk, it could mean getting a bottle of water, anything will do. Anything that is that doesnt involve smoking, or something equally destructive, such as having an 'extra' drink at the bar.

I would also change her values to raise the level of overall health. You cannot smoke and have health very high on the values list. Behavior flows down from beliefs and values. I would up the value of health, and doing 'healthy' behaviors. I would hate for her to quit smoking by becomming obese.

skip

[Cassandra 8]

I'm not quite sure what you are saying there cassandra - please could you clarify for a confused person?

Perhaps it is possible to over focus on the not doing of something and going along with the smoker's illusions. If we go along with smokers illusions of why they really smoke and that they will miss it, do we not miss the illusory component of the addiction and actually exacerbate it by giving it credence? Perhaps that might lead to failure because we offer a shorter term solution (i.e; we might get them to stop but after a while the unresolved doubt about illusory benefits sneak back in). I feel much of the focus needs to be on why smokers smoke. This need not be disrespectful to them or their behaviour but rather to show them how addiction and smoking perceptions are, for want of a better word, exploitative of their thought processes for its own benefit.

I get your point and I know what you mean. These are the smoker's illusions. They're also yours and mine. I need to explain my ideas better. Here goes for this one. I hope you'll like it:

The subject has formed an addiction, some aspect of which we can all agree they don't like. By forming, some part of them has been potentiated to the point where it feels a complex set and series of needs, triggers and reasons (however stupid to the rest of us) throughout the day that indicate taking the drug is just "right". It has found its purpose in life. There's always a psychological aspect and always a physical one, either cause or effect.

The subject consciously wants the addiction to stop happening for whatever reason. That's perfectly rational, but you'll never know the real reason. You can bet it's only to do with the downside of the addiction and not the pleasure (however much they might tell you there is none - there is. One of the most important lessons in life is that we all lie).

But only the subject has the power to actually stop performing their smoking ritual and thereby stop taking the drug. But they'll also stop receiving the pleasure they receive on demand, and as they get the upside with no real work on their part, what's the point in stopping?

Can you see here it's a struggle against competing urges, and so you have to expect that what's causing them to take the drug is very complex and individual too. A dumb process doesn't work like that; it's complex enough to be part of them.

Because of this, I say that addressing the part of the mind that smokes, gaining its trust and showing it gently that there are other things it can do and be in life is not pandering to it. The addiction has only ever known how to smoke, so it naturally fears the leap into another line of work. We all do.

Then there's the evidence apparent in Cleo's subject, who even seems to be saying "one...two...three...whee!" Remember, the subject's addiction can't see, hear, feel, touch or taste you. Because it's a part of mind, it only believes things. It believes Cleo enough that it's prepared to make that leap on the count of three. Cleo, you've talked an addiction into a bunjee jump. Cheer it on or it'll hold on to the scaffold!

Clearly, on some level, the client probably has an authoritarian complex and simply believes that hypnotists only exist to beguile everyone they meet and so naturally everything Cleo says must be influencing them deliciously beyond their control. They want an experience Odd, that... I blame TV.

But also remember that everyone lies, especially to themselves, and so she might want to tell the client that they will stop smoking for sure in exactly the time that has been between her sessions. If it's been a week between sessions, she'll be nicotime free in a week. Whee, after all, is a number you can count to if you're apprehensive!


But, I mean, you know, I might be completely wrong, and I accept that. I just happen ot have hit on a crowd of people that respond intuitively to this approach. And I smoke. It's just that, right now, I don't feel the need. It's perfectly natural to me and yet I know I made this re-configuration artificially. Before I did, I smoked 25-30 Marlboro Lights a day. They were nice. I enjoyed them, but I think It's like sniffing glue is probably nice to children. Grown ups naturally don't tend to feel the need to continue. Some even stop getting high. Just imagine that... Why not, they can. There's nothing wrong with that.

Then again there's also the coshing the critical faculty over the head approach, but stage hypnosis is so brutish and ugly. And in a society demanding respect without earning it, we should always build rapport ;)

[Merlin]

WARNING

Even drinking water can be deadly.

It seems harmless, but huge amounts can alter brain chemistry/brain electrolytes.

It'll probably be harmless, but you should be aware of the possibility.

[Merlin]

>with my sessions she gets very relaxed and seems to get good levels of trance

What happened when you tested?
Do you have relaxation? Trance? Hypnosis?

[Cleo]

Thanks Merlin, I’ll remember that! (I’m frustrated and you made me smile)

[Cleo]

I did the Elman (I need to extend my repertoire but I’m a novice and I love this one) but she did great both times. The first time the arm drop was perfect, she lost the numbers almost straight away. The second time the arm drop was a tad light but great and I added something there which worked great. She held a lot more numbers this time, got to 97 at opposed to 99 the last time. But this time I added a deepener, she loved it, she was mega relaxed.

No obvious physical signs of hypnosis ie eyes watering etc (I do know she was not asleep) but she maintained her position for over 30mins which is hard to do unless you are in some trance state? I always tell people to take another deep breath and relax even deeper so I can observe them just sink into the chair, and she did…………..she said afterwards she felt like she’d have valium.

(I always manage to get people relaxed but as for stopping smoking????) maybe I should just specialize in relaxation??

[EC]

Cleo,

You have been given lot's of good advice huh ?

Skip gave excellent, blow by blow techniques to develop the change she seeks ......if you have the training to carry it thru. Skip is speaking from an advanced level of knowledge and practice and as he briefly cautioned about weight gain, generating new behavior can go way wrong if not completed properly. If you feel you can develop the skills to do the process, that will be great for you and her, on the other hand, sometimes changing tracks into unknown territory which might still result in failure can do more harm than good for your reputation and the clients behavior.

The real truth about smoking is exactly what Skip implied, it's not really whether they are ready to stop or not. If they end up in your chair they have made some level of decision to stop, they JUST DON"T KNOW HOW. This is what an experienced practitioner does, he/she TEACHES them.

So back to my original post, I implied that the individual must be ready to quit, because if so, a basic hypnotist can help them. Otherwise, you must have the experience to teach them how.

I hope you do not take offense, we all began as "novices", as you continue to learn and gain experience, the failures will be less and less, it makes sense to just stay the course and add to your techniques as you learn and practice them.

EC

[Neurotic1]

I get your point and I know what you mean.....

But only the subject has the power to actually stop performing their smoking ritual and thereby stop taking the drug. But they'll also stop receiving the pleasure they receive on demand, and as they get the upside with no real work on their part, what's the point in stopping?

Yes. I'm not sure you got my thoughts entirely. I was suggesting that the 'pleasure' in smoking is entirely illusory. The only 'pleasure' IMO is relief from subtle withdrawal symptoms, allowing you to feel like a non-smoker for a while, until you begin to withdraw from nicotine again. There is no discernible 'high' from nicotine for a regular smoker. The pleasure is all in the ending of the discomfort caused by nicotine in the first place and hence it is illusory. Of course, there may be pleasure in smoking rituals which may not be illusory at all but then why not stop the nicotine and keep the ritual of opening cigarette packets? Stupid statement, I know, because the whole point is that it is an addiction. Nicotine has to be one of the most evil and insipid drugs known to man - it gives nothing and takes everything and it is so subtle you don't really see the trap even when you are out of it, hence why so many ex-smokers return to the habit. Those who do not return either spend much of their time missing smoking and wishing they could have just the one, or they realise that there is absolutely nothing to miss - now the latter would, IMO be a better outcome for hypnotherapy, no?

[Merlin]

So, you have probably got the hypnosis part ok :)

while 'stop smoking' is a popular thing for hypnotists to do, it's not easy.
The #1 stop smoking method is death
The #2 method is hypnosis.
Still, only about 30% are successful in quitting.

This rate can be much higher as skills and understanding increase. I've heard up to 80%

Skip goes over quite a bit which can raise your success rate.

But in answer to your question, smokers are often difficult.

[Don]

The #1 stop smoking method is death
The #2 method is hypnosis.
Still, only about 30% are successful in quitting.


I could be wrong, but I would think that the success rate of death for stopping smoking is much closer to 100%

:)

[skip]

"Nicotine has to be one of the most evil and insipid drugs known to man"

Why dont you tell us what you really think instead of holding back?

Id like to know, just for the sake of my own curiousity, how you aquired this belief.

As an ex smoker, I cant help but wonder how something that only hurts the person who consumes it, and takes a long time in the doing, that gives that person such pleasure over such a long period of time, is evil and insipid.

What's next Beef, beer?

I am an odd conservative. I think there are some things that it aint nobodys business if I do.

skip

[Cassandra 8]

Yes. I'm not sure you got my thoughts entirely. I was suggesting that the 'pleasure' in smoking is entirely illusory. The only 'pleasure' IMO is relief from subtle withdrawal symptoms, allowing you to feel like a non-smoker for a while, until you begin to withdraw from nicotine again. There is no discernible 'high' from nicotine for a regular smoker. The pleasure is all in the ending of the discomfort caused by nicotine in the first place and hence it is illusory.Oh dear me, no!

I can see how you'd arrive at that interpretation, and I respect it. We each make our own interpretation of the available evidence and that's yours. But...

Nicotine is psychoactive. It gives a mellow, clear, calm high. It's nice. I enjoy it. It enhances certain activities subjectively, like any drug, especially the post-coitus glow.

Resistance builds, naturally, and so you increase your consumption chasing it if you like it that much. That's how come I ended up on 25-30 a day for over a decade. I like the high.

To say there's no high means there's no point in starting, doesn't it. There is a high, and it's a nice high that relaxes you and forms a buffer against stress.

The cost/benefit ratio of the traditional delivery vector is apalling, however. That's why I reconfigured myself to do without it. Sure, I'm denying myself pleasure, but also the worry of getting ill later in life. That, for me, is a far better cost/benefit ratio.

[Terry (existing)]

OK but only if you deny the existance of the "fires of hell"
(EG)

[Neurotic1]

"Nicotine has to be one of the most evil and insipid drugs known to man"

Why dont you tell us what you really think instead of holding back?

Id like to know, just for the sake of my own curiousity, how you aquired this belief.

As an ex smoker, I cant help but wonder how something that only hurts the person who consumes it, and takes a long time in the doing, that gives that person such pleasure over such a long period of time, is evil and insipid.

What's next Beef, beer?

I am an odd conservative. I think there are some things that it aint nobodys business if I do.

skip
Hi Skip,

I take your point there on that aspect of the issue. I base my belief on the fact that it is perhaps the single most addicitve drug (above crack cocaine and heroin) on the planet and holds virtually psychoactive 'benefit'. It is the one drug that most polypharmaceutical dependants find hardest to give up. It causes far more physical harm to the user in the long term than, say heroin would. The difference is that heroin and crack users actually have sanctions on them via the law, far more so than smokers - in that it is illegal to take those drugs anywhere and that they are so expensive which means that users have to modify their lifestyle far more than smokers. Anyway, that's comparative and we could go on all day and night with comparisons. Do you really think that if nicotine was discovered now that it would be legalised?

[Neurotic1]

Oh dear me, no!

I can see how you'd arrive at that interpretation, and I respect it. We each make our own interpretation of the available evidence and that's yours. But...

Nicotine is psychoactive. It gives a mellow, clear, calm high. It's nice. I enjoy it. It enhances certain activities subjectively, like any drug, especially the post-coitus glow.

Resistance builds, naturally, and so you increase your consumption chasing it if you like it that much. That's how come I ended up on 25-30 a day for over a decade. I like the high.

To say there's no high means there's no point in starting, doesn't it. There is a high, and it's a nice high that relaxes you and forms a buffer against stress.


Yes and what I am saying is that the high is not a true high but a relief from the low it causes. I would agree that you are correct in your thought that there is no point in starting. Funny how the majority of people who start nicotine can't stop and spend the rest of their smoking lives making excuses to keep going. Sounds awfully like addiction and denial doesn't it...

Also funny that people say that they smoke to relax them and yet at the same time they smoke to wake themselves up or get a buzz. These two states are contradictory. Therefore people who believe this believe that the drug is self-antagonistic therefore what is the point? Hypoxia is psychoactive which may go somewhat toward explaining the occasional buzz of a late cigarette.

[skip]

"Do you really think that if nicotine was discovered now that it would be legalised?"

I dont think that is germain to the discussion, asprin wouldnt be approved as a drug, so what.

Nicotine isnt actually what causes the harm in cigarette smoking, it is the tars and other componnents of the smoke. But that's a side issue as well. You might want to look into the logical fallacy in the famous Wertheimer study of sidestream smoke, on which the current anti smoking hysteria is based.

And when heroin, morphene, cocaine, and MJ were legal, there were people that could afford them long term, and used them long term. There were people who wasted their lives, with them, and that's why they were made illegal.

But thats besides the point. Food is addictive. So is water. So is alcohol, at least for us.

I have no problem with nicotine, even with the tars and associated costs. I made a personal choice to quit, for my own reasons. And I think that is how it should be, not imposed on people by so called do gooders. For some the enjoyment is worth the price of dying 50 years later gasping for breath, for others it isnt.

We enjoy a number of long acting poisions, for a variety of reasons. We enjoy all sorts of dangerous activities.

So to my mind saying something is addictive, or dangerous to humans does not make it evil. It makes it dangerous. But many dangerous things if treated with respect, are benificial, and are trade offs.

To my mind it is an individual's choice.

cheers,

skip

[Merlin]

Don,
30% refers to the hypnosis success rate

[Jack]

Hello Cleo,

Most of it has been said and said well, but anecdotally I can say that smoking is one of the easiest addictions to conquer if. If you want hard, try crack cocaine.

I spend an inordinate amount of time finding out if the client really, really wants to quit. If I detect any trace of a hidden agenda then I tell them to go away and come back when they are ready. Not easy as a novice I know because of the money, but you have to do it if you don't want to get a poor repuation and damage your own confidence.

It really is all about benefits. My opinion about the client you have is that this person enjoys not giving up. The fact that she is thinking about acupuncture means she has already dismissed hypnotherapy as a means of doing so. When she has been through all the therapies she can be very satisfied that nothing can help her and she will just have to keep on smoking. Why she might do this, I have no idea, but a benefit lurks behind even that benefit.

My advice? Dump her and move on to clients who really want to quit.

Jack

[Neurotic1]

Nicotine isnt actually what causes the harm in cigarette smoking, it is the tars and other componnents of the smoke.
Actually it does cause harm - it is a vasoconstictor and that is one of the major factors in various ill-health effects of smoking.


But thats besides the point. Food is addictive. So is water. So is alcohol, at least for us.

I wouldn't agree with that way of defining addiction. Food and water are required to live, nicotine is not.

I have no problem with nicotine, even with the tars and associated costs. I made a personal choice to quit, for my own reasons. And I think that is how it should be, not imposed on people by so called do gooders. For some the enjoyment is worth the price of dying 50 years later gasping for breath, for others it isnt.
I completely agree Skip. I don't want to take away anybody's choice and would never seek to impose stopping smoking on someone else. What I am saying is that the enjoyment people get is illusory. They think they get benefit but all they get is harm. The relief of feeling agitated or subtle withdrawal appears to the smoker as a 'high' or relaxing feeling - hence it is illusory. The smoker doesn't gain anything - it is the lack of nicotine which causes the feeling of being slightly unrelaxed - when the smoker is released from that unrelaxed feeling when they are able to have their nicotine, it feels good. Just as when you've been wearing a tight pair of shoes all day it feels good to take them off. You wouldn't wear a tight pair of shoes just for the sake of that 'taking them off feeling' would you - unless of course you were addicted to wearing tight shoes. There is no benefit. All these benefits smokers cite such as 'i like the taste, smell, etc, etc' are just a drug addict's excuses for why they continue. I like the smell of rose petals but I don't roll them up and smoke them compulsively.


So to my mind saying something is addictive, or dangerous to humans does not make it evil. It makes it dangerous. But many dangerous things if treated with respect, are benificial, and are trade offs.
I think any benefit in nicotine and smoking is an illusion - it only harms but people are deluded into feeling that they really enjoy it - just like the tight shoes. The drug itself is natural and therefore not evil. The exploitation of millions of people by conning them into thinking there is benefit in something which is highly addictive, kills them and does no good for them at all is evil. As an ex-smoker Skip, do you recall your first cigarette? Where was the real benefit to you of that first cigarette? Did it actually give you anything you couldn't have given yourself?


To my mind it is an individual's choice.

cheers,

skip
Yes, I am not challenging the freedom of people to smoke, nor their choice to smoke at all.

[Cleo]

EC
I hate being a novice. And sometimes I think I just never going to make it. Here this woman 10 years ago went to a group hypnosis session and gave up smoking there and then. Here I am giving her individual attention, looking to find out her special needs and I cant get her to cut down?????
Someone asked me the other day how much do I charge and I said It depends because If I don’t have clients I want someone in my chair so I can be and experienced hypnotherapist! Sure I need the money but I don’t care if I don’t get paid right now. I want to be successful that means getting results

[Cleo]

Like I said I wonder if I shouldn’t just specialize in relaxation I get great feedback on at least that much!!!

But those statistics are encouraging (ie in stopping me giving up, not for the smoker)

[Cleo]

Jack, I think she is moving on to acupuncture because it will buy her more time to stay smoking. I do believe she wants to quit but she is not totally committed. As is said before I’m and ex heavy smoker and I sold myself a lot of excuses and I think she is doing just that. The idea is there to give up but the time has not been decided on. Last week she was talking about going out on Friday night and how she would be drinking etc and she “would” be smoking.
I have very mixed feelings about this. I want to walk away but I do see her as my failure. I think she sees me as a failure and now I’m dreaming about it. ( I think I’m taking this way to personally)
If she were someone who was not connected to a group that I belong to I would just walk away, however I feel I have to keep trying. However I will not try indefinitely.
I will take Don’s advice and ask her to keep a log of her smoking for a week, and then on her next and “last” session I will endeavor to put some of Skips advice into practice. But I have decided I will not keep with her till she gives up as I feel she will use me to buy her more time. We were to trade services as payment so there is not real $$ changing hands and I dont want to accept her servicecs if I cant be successful with my own.
PS remind me NEVER to take on a cocaine addiction.

[Jack]

Cleo, yes, I do think you are taking this personally. I also think that you are doing yourself no favours. There are a zillion smokers out there and amongst those people some want to quit and others don't but say they do. This woman is actually future pacing her smoking behaviour which would indicate to me that above all else she desires to continue it.

Now, forgive me if I seem rude, but one of the main gremlins hypnotherapists have to face is the ego. This can be a dogged determination to achieve a result despite all logical indications to the contrary. Sometimes, it can be useful, but mostly it is energy sapping and destructive.

Why do you care if she sees you as a failure? Who is she, your mother? This woman is just one of a stream of clients you will see over the years, some of whom you will affect in a beneficial way and others whom you will not. One of the greatest lessons we can learn as therapists of any type is humility and the second greatest is the avoidance of constant bruising on the forehead.:)
I mean all this kindly.

Take a deep breath, smile, dump her and move on.

Jack



Jack, I think she is moving on to acupuncture because it will buy her more time to stay smoking. I do believe she wants to quit but she is not totally committed. As is said before I’m and ex heavy smoker and I sold myself a lot of excuses and I think she is doing just that. The idea is there to give up but the time has not been decided on. Last week she was talking about going out on Friday night and how she would be drinking etc and she “would” be smoking.
I have very mixed feelings about this. I want to walk away but I do see her as my failure. I think she sees me as a failure and now I’m dreaming about it. ( I think I’m taking this way to personally)
If she were someone who was not connected to a group that I belong to I would just walk away, however I feel I have to keep trying. However I will not try indefinitely.
I will take Don’s advice and ask her to keep a log of her smoking for a week, and then on her next and “last” session I will endeavor to put some of Skips advice into practice. But I have decided I will not keep with her till she gives up as I feel she will use me to buy her more time. We were to trade services as payment so there is not real $$ changing hands and I dont want to accept her servicecs if I cant be successful with my own.
PS remind me NEVER to take on a cocaine addiction.

[Cleo]

Taken kindly, thanks. (oh and I wouldn’t give my poor mother this much credence, maybe 20 years ago but not now)
There “were” some other people in the group who want to quit smoking but wanted to see how she did with me first. But the energy sapping and destructive is right on the button and I’ve been allowing that to happen.

All the support on this forum has been so encouraging !

[Cassandra 8]

Yes and what I am saying is that the high is not a true high but a relief from the low it causes. I would agree that you are correct in your thought that there is no point in starting. Funny how the majority of people who start nicotine can't stop and spend the rest of their smoking lives making excuses to keep going. Sounds awfully like addiction and denial doesn't it...

Also funny that people say that they smoke to relax them and yet at the same time they smoke to wake themselves up or get a buzz. These two states are contradictory. Therefore people who believe this believe that the drug is self-antagonistic therefore what is the point? Hypoxia is psychoactive which may go somewhat toward explaining the occasional buzz of a late cigarette.It's interesting that you should have arrived at these beliefs. I have a feeling you've never smoked tobacco, and I'm interested in the beliefs you've formed because they make an exquisitely self-agreeing whole that works for you. I can see how this would work in therapy too, which is great. I'd like, however, to show you another interpretation, which I hope you'll be good enough to follow as I explain it.

You see, many recreational drugs carry what might be thought of as antagonistic effects. In fact, these effects sometimes run independently.

Nicotine really does clear the mind and relax it at the same time. Alcohol gives an uplift and depresses the CNS, too. Similarly, cannabis provides an energetic spurt of euphoria and an underlying, relaxed and more contemplative state of mind. Amid the chemical rush of amphetamine there is a solid core of confident calm. Even LSD-25 provides something of a giggly rush before the sensory onslaught takes over. Perhaps these and other substances are popular purely becasue they do produce complex effects.

Whatever the reason, in forming a belief, I'd say there's no substitute for experience (which gets me into trouble with Skip :D sometimes when I bang on about the scientific method separating "truth" from "belief"). But I have first-hand, somewhat enthusiastic experience of all the substances I've mentioned. I'm not advocating their use however for anyone other than those with stout intellects, such as Aldous Huxley and I :rolleyes:.

I suppose my underlying suggestion here is that for you nicotine is a buzzless parasite on humanity, used only to stave off withdrawal, but withdrawal from what? Can we agree here that there must have been some feeling worth getting addicted to at some level, regardless of whether its illusory to one of us and real to the other?

On another level, isn't some version of relaxed and alert what we tend to tell people they'll feel when we release them from hypnosis?

[Cassandra 8]

Taken kindly, thanks. (oh and I wouldn’t give my poor mother this much credence, maybe 20 years ago but not now)
There “were” some other people in the group who want to quit smoking but wanted to see how she did with me first. But the energy sapping and destructive is right on the button and I’ve been allowing that to happen.

All the support on this forum has been so encouraging !
Hi again, Cleo.

When's this troublesome woman's last session?

Spend a little longer taking her deeper than entirely neccessary and make sure the part of her that smokes understands that this is the final session before the change WILL take place.

I think and hope you'll be pleasantly surprised when her subconscious jumps after three. After all, your suggestion of her drinking more fluids is already in and working, isn't it, so it's not your ability that's lacking.

If she doesn't change, really it's her fault now, but she will.

[Cleo]

I spoke to her this morning and told her to keep a log for a week as to when she smokes and why she thinks she smokes at that time. Then I said when you are ready call me and we will book your “final” session. She was a bit dismissive and that’s fine too. If she doesn’t want to come back that’s her decision. She told me she smoked all weekend as it was “party time. I think she is buying time.

[BrianF]

Consider that she has an addiction to nicotene and a seperate habit of sticking something in her gob. Tackle breaking her habit and bring her to using nicorettes patches or gum to reduce the effect of the addiction. Suggest reducing the replacement nicotene intake use over a specific time period and continue working with her until both the addiction is out and the habit is replaced.

[Neurotic1]

It's interesting that you should have arrived at these beliefs. I have a feeling you've never smoked tobacco, and I'm interested in the beliefs you've formed because they make an exquisitely self-agreeing whole that works for you. I can see how this would work in therapy too, which is great. I'd like, however, to show you another interpretation, which I hope you'll be good enough to follow as I explain it.

You see, many recreational drugs carry what might be thought of as antagonistic effects. In fact, these effects sometimes run independently.

Nicotine really does clear the mind and relax it at the same time. Alcohol gives an uplift and depresses the CNS, too. Similarly, cannabis provides an energetic spurt of euphoria and an underlying, relaxed and more contemplative state of mind. Amid the chemical rush of amphetamine there is a solid core of confident calm. Even LSD-25 provides something of a giggly rush before the sensory onslaught takes over. Perhaps these and other substances are popular purely becasue they do produce complex effects.

Whatever the reason, in forming a belief, I'd say there's no substitute for experience (which gets me into trouble with Skip :D sometimes when I bang on about the scientific method separating "truth" from "belief"). But I have first-hand, somewhat enthusiastic experience of all the substances I've mentioned. I'm not advocating their use however for anyone other than those with stout intellects, such as Aldous Huxley and I :rolleyes:.

I suppose my underlying suggestion here is that for you nicotine is a buzzless parasite on humanity, used only to stave off withdrawal, but withdrawal from what? Can we agree here that there must have been some feeling worth getting addicted to at some level, regardless of whether its illusory to one of us and real to the other?

On another level, isn't some version of relaxed and alert what we tend to tell people they'll feel when we release them from hypnosis?

Cassandra, thank you for taking the time to reply. In my experience as a full time smoker of over 10 years, I still disagree. I think perhaps the only 'pleasure' that keeps me smoking is scratching that itch of the withdrawal. I dislike the taste, smell, appalling health effects from teeth which fall out to cancer (luckily I don't have those yet) and everything about smoking except the relief from the withdrawal symptoms and that wonderful feeling of being like a non-smoker and not having to think about it for a while until the withdrawal makes me want a cigarette again. Why haven't I stopped? Maybe it's masochism for scratching the itch, maybe I'm too lazy, who knows. Will I stop, yes probably again soon because I am coming to realise that there is no benefit and that it was all an illusion. I'm almost reformed. I support anyone who wishes to smoke and wishes to use the endless list of excuses I have used myself on many occasions (and even in this post!) I still firmly believe that all benefits are illusory. Do you remember your very first cigarette? What was it like? Did it taste/smell good? Did it make your lungs feel better? Did it give you a dizzy, unpleasant feeling you could have got through holding your breath for a few seconds? Smoking is purely and simply an addiction and does not offer the buzz of almost every other drug of addiction known to Man. I am very pleased for you if you can control it to two cigarettes per day. They probably would seem like very precious cigarettes to me lol but I suppose that is because I would have been in withdrawal whilst waiting to smoke them.
Please enjoy and I do respect you if you wish to do it - I would never be an anti-smoker type of person because I would rather my friends felt comfortable to do as they please. I feel it is the drug that is the problem not the people and you are not going to convince me that there is a real benefit.

[Don]

Cleo! Give yourself a break!

Many things have happened to this woman in 10 years.

With your help she can quit permanently. She was only able to stop temporarily before.

Courage!

[Cleo]

Thankyou Don