View Full Version : Forgiveness, Consciousness, Responsibility
Simple Guy
04-07-2005, 08:34 PM
"...forgive them for they know not what they do," are biblical words that
can be applied to people acting wrongly while being oblivious to their
own subconscious workings. To do so, though, can pass beyond explanation
into the slippery slope of excuse making and abandonment of
personal responsibility. Comments?
It doesnt have to.
Forgiveness and holding people accountable are not mutually exclusive, except in the minds of a few fools.
skip
parsa
04-08-2005, 07:07 AM
>"...forgive them for they know not what they do,"
>Forgiveness and holding people accountable
I guess forgiveness is something the victim does regardless of what the abuser chooses to do. Sometimes it seems to me that it is more like forgiving yourself for what has happened to you.
How you hold someone accountable is really up for debate. Like that guy that got caught for murder after so many years a while ago(I think he was in chicago). Is sending him to prison holding him accountable? A lot of people things so. It seemed that he was a changed person. So then why do it? But then I guess not sending him to prison is like admitting that prisons are full of people just because we don't know how to transform them.
Personally I can forgive a person. But not because they didn't know what they were doing. I usually don't buy that, more often than not what I see is step by step planned and calculated dicisions not zombie like behavior.
Terry (existing)
04-08-2005, 10:27 AM
What is the alternative? Don't forgive them, they are scum? Don't see how that helps you, and the fact is, YOU are responsible for how YOU act, not the actions of others, over whom you have no control. We need to remember also, that forgiveness does NOT include accepting the sin, only loving the sinner, so they are still responsible for paying for the sin, whatever that may be..... For those who have a problem with the word "sin" feel free to transpose it to the word "crlme" even though they are not always synonymous. As I sit here watching the funeral of Pope John Paul the second, I am observing the results of a loving hand extended to others, and the results. Nuf said, except that many chose not to follow his teachings, yet still hold him in high esteme, and the results of his actions may well change this world even after his death.....
Simple Guy
04-08-2005, 02:30 PM
Terry,
I too have been moved by the life and accomplishments of John Paul II.
He provided (and his legacy continues to provide) an extraordinary
model of kindness, personal courage, and perserverence for people
of all faiths and walks.
I don't quarrel with the tenor of your response, but would point out
that forgiveness usually includes removing responsibility "for paying
for the sin" (or crime), as in the salvation that is possible within
Chrisitianity and Judaism. Consider, also, "forgiveness of debt,"
where the repayment slate is wiped clean. Despite this, we exact
punishment as a matter of public or personal policy (to prevent
repeat offenses, to hold people accountable, etc.), irrelevant
of whether we forgive the person or not. Punishment is often helpful
to ensure that people are accountable for the acts; forgiveness
can take place with or without it.
Forgiveness goes towards the person and not towards
the wrongs, we both agree.
Simple Guy
04-08-2005, 02:37 PM
Parsa,
Forgiveness is a beneficial state for the person wronged, irrelevant
of whether the violator accepts it or even knows of it. Of course,
it never includes allowing any further abuse.
Merlin
04-08-2005, 08:16 PM
SG,
Forgiveness is something for self.
It alters your own thoughts and thought processes.
Forgiveness releases those negative emotions inside of you, so that they don't cause harm to you.
As Skip says: Forgiveness and holding people accountable are not mutually exclusive.
To forgive does not mean to condone the act. It's more about holding or not holding grudges/negative emotions inside you.
Simple Guy
04-08-2005, 08:26 PM
Merlin,
Forgive me for saying what others will also take to be obvious,
this and many of your other posts are well stated. :)
Terry (existing)
04-09-2005, 11:45 AM
I guess we are all saying the same thing, in different words....
omani
04-12-2005, 05:57 AM
Do you mean that we have to forgive any one before we blame him!!
(soory my language is weak)
Do you mean that we have to forgive any one before we blame him!!
Hello Omani,
It is natural to ascribe blame after an event with which you find fault. But, the blamer may find that he is more affected than the person blamed. It is therefore in the interests of the blamer to forgive, and move on.
For instance, a bomb explodes and a relative is killed. The bomber intended to kill people; that was his reason for planting the bomb. Nothing you do can make him feel guilty about his action. He has his own view of right and wrong. You blame him and for a short time it may be helpful to you to make sense of the event by blaming him. But you cannot continue to harbour hatred without damaging yourself.
By forgiving him you make him powerless to harm more than he has already harmed, by forgiving him you prevent his action from damaging you. But forgiving is not the same as condoning; you may hate the action but forgive the fool who perpetrated it.
Jack